The problem I would see isn't that "taking the good parts" is a bad thing.
You can basicly say that WoW did that with many previous MMO's. Then twisted it into the Warcraft universe... So in many ways its a game you already played.
My opinion of what is "good for the market" would be to actually do something different. You can't totally re-invent how MMO's work but you can decide to use different core systems..
I always wished someone took Ultima Online as it was in 97 or 98.. and then did more of everything with it. Game design at the moment seems more about packing everything into a little maze... where you actually have no choice but to follow the maze then they drop a story or quest in there to try and convince you that you had a choice.
i know your not the fanboi type, but what you just typed is ridiculous, expanding and using material from other games doesnt make a 5year+ running MMO with 11million+ subs running....... WoW has its uniqueness
Like...what? Not to bash ya man, but wow's about as plain as it gets. OK, I take that back. Wow does have a few unique things. More market than anyone else, and the most polished game on the market, but that's about it.
While I absolutely agree that WoW isn't the epitome of innovation, it is unique in that it supports pretty much every playstyle and has an unparallelled variety of gameplay compared to other games that often have a very narrow focus.
That's why I still play; it's the only game that lets me do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it.
I will respectfully disagree. WoW pigeonholes players into very specific playstyles, ultimately ending with a completely raid-oriented end-game. Pvp is but an afterthought, and don't even get me started on crafting, housing, or social dynamics. I've always seen wow as one of the more shallow mmos on the market, and I can't see how you see it as "unparrallelled variety of gameplay" when variety is the exact factor that wow fails so miserably in. That comment just really boggles me because your posts are usually spot on.
Explain to me why you think WoW's PvP is an afterthought and give me good examples of a game where it wasn't. Keep in mind my first MMORPG was DAoC, and I loved the RvR. But as far as PvP mini-games go, DAOC doesn't hold a candle to WoW, nor does it have arena style PvP. DAoC was a zerg fest. Whoever shot the first mezz off usually won the battle. Keep battles were fun, but usually took hours upon hours to finish, and that's once you got there. Travel time in DAoC was horrible for anyone wanting to get into the action quickly. You usually spent most of your time roaming with the zerg or 8 mans, trying to find someone to kill. When you actually did find someone to kill, they were usually fewer than you, and you dominated them. Those who could of posed a challenge, either died quickly since you mezzed them first, or you died quickly because they got off the first mezz.
I actually think Wintergrasp was a good take on siege PvP, and they have a couple BG's that do it as well. WoW has plenty of PvP minigames in the form of BG's that are just plain entertaining, sorta like a FPS game with multiple maps to choose from. The only annoying thing about PvP in WoW and why I don't do it anymore is that everyone has I-Win buttons. For example, a Rogue can stun lock you until dead or a Paladin can bubble, or a Warlock fears, to name a few.
i know your not the fanboi type, but what you just typed is ridiculous, expanding and using material from other games doesnt make a 5year+ running MMO with 11million+ subs running....... WoW has its uniqueness
Like...what? Not to bash ya man, but wow's about as plain as it gets. OK, I take that back. Wow does have a few unique things. More market than anyone else, and the most polished game on the market, but that's about it.
1. The massive number of quests and the ability to quest from 1-60.
2. Auction House (not sure if they were the first, but it was the first I seen of it)
3. Group instances with Elite mobs that only a group could kill. Other games had dungeons, but if you were high enough, you could solo the stuff in there. Or you could group with others and crawl to mobs high enough level to pose a challenge to your group. None of those dungeons offered loot that was uber as WoW's though.
4. UI functions. The dressing room, click to view details on others, right-click a name for a variety of options. You get the picture. They made UI extremely user friendly. Older games relied upon a lot of /slash commands.
5. Gated Raid content. Not sure about EQ, but DAoC's raid content was doable by anyone at max level. In WoW, you had to be geared out from previous raid dungeons to progress to the harder ones.
6. Flying Mounts, and perhaps mounts in general. Again, not sure about EQ, but DAoC didn't get mounts until after WoW came out with them.
7. Great Website. Websites are tools, tools that are very important to the game. DAoC had the herald, but WoW raised the bar with the amount of information available on it. Take Armory as an example.
I'm sure there's plenty of other features WoW had before other MMORPG's, but I can't spend all night thinking about it.
I'll give you point four. You are correct that wow's UI is hawt. I don't know about unique, but certainly well polished. Don't know about point six. Diablo 2 still has a better website than wow will ever have. Heck, I always though wow's site was trash. Very little useful information, no real reason to visit than to go to the forums. Thott had 10x more content about the game, and wow's armory is a copy of other better indie websites.
In the end, not much of what you listed is very unique to wow. You could say unique in that those elements have been polished better than basically any game, but it's the polish that gives those elements their uniqueness.
And I gotta say, in point one, do you really consider 1000 kill 10 rats and get ten boar guts quests really to be "quests"? They were just a glorified grinding mechanic that made you run all over the place like a chicken with your head cut off. Drove me absolutely batshit insane lol
Explain to me why you think WoW's PvP is an afterthought and give me good examples of a game where it wasn't. Keep in mind my first MMORPG was DAoC, and I loved the RvR. But as far as PvP mini-games go, DAOC doesn't hold a candle to WoW, nor does it have arena style PvP. DAoC was a zerg fest. Whoever shot the first mezz off usually won the battle. Keep battles were fun, but usually took hours upon hours to finish, and that's once you got there. Travel time in DAoC was horrible for anyone wanting to get into the action quickly. You usually spent most of your time roaming with the zerg or 8 mans, trying to find someone to kill. When you actually did find someone to kill, they were usually fewer than you, and you dominated them. Those who could of posed a challenge, either died quickly since you mezzed them first, or you died quickly because they got off the first mezz.
I actually think Wintergrasp was a good take on siege PvP, and they have a couple BG's that do it as well. WoW has plenty of PvP minigames in the form of BG's that are just plain entertaining, sorta like a FPS game with multiple maps to choose from. The only annoying thing about PvP in WoW and why I don't do it anymore is that everyone has I-Win buttons. For example, a Rogue can stun lock you until dead or a Paladin can bubble, or a Warlock fears, to name a few.
When i played (and understand I quit right after we beat Naxx, right before BC), we had three battlegrounds in two years. I came back for a little bit during BC and at that point there was one more battleground and those retarded arenas (sorry if you like arenas, which i know a lot of people do). It was clear up until that point that wow's primary focus was (and I understand still is) pve, particularly raiding.
IMO, a game that made as much money as wow shoulda had like ten battlegrounds and plenty of top level lands for players to fight over resources. Every attempt until that point that Blizzard made with wow's pvp was half-hearted and ultimately junk. Heck, after BC, there were STILL only two top-level zones for people to compete in (which really didn't have anything to compete over) Eastern plaguelands, Silithus, that one zone in BC (I forget the name had a little island town in the middle), it was all just a waste of time. I'm not even a serious pvper like those crazy shadowbane or darkfall guys! I just like variety! When I quit, four battlegrounds just wasn't variety.
I should also note I participated in the mass battles at Tarren Mill and faction boss raids, but they were pretty much eh...
But hey, enough of my wow bashing. I hope you continue to enjoy your favorite game.
I'll give you point four. You are correct that wow's UI is hawt. I don't know about unique, but certainly well polished. Don't know about point six. Diablo 2 still has a better website than wow will ever have. Heck, I always though wow's site was trash. Very little useful information, no real reason to visit than to go to the forums. Thott had 10x more content about the game, and wow's armory is a copy of other better indie websites.
In the end, not much of what you listed is very unique to wow. You could say unique in that those elements have been polished better than basically any game, but it's the polish that gives those elements their uniqueness.
I could be wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what WoW brought to the table. What I listed is a short list of things WoW brought to the table. Now since they have, it's been copied by most companies with a brain, but it doesn't mean they didn't come up with a unique or original idea, which is what I thought you were implying.
When i played (and understand I quite right after we beat Naxx, right before BC), we had three battlegrounds in two years. I came back for a little bit during BC and at that point there was one more battleground and those retarded arenas (sorry if you like arenas, which i know a lot of people do). It was clear up until that point that wow's primary focus was (and I understand still is) pve, particularly raiding.
IMO, a game that made as much money as wow shoulda had like ten battlegrounds and plenty of top level lands for players to fight over resources. Every attempt until that point that Blizzard made with wow's pvp was half-hearted and ultimately junk. Heck, after BC, there were STILL only two top-level zones for people to compete in (which really didn't have anything to compete over) Eastern plaguelands, Silithus, that one zone in BC (I forget the name had a little island town in the middle), it was all just a waste of time. I'm not even a serious pvper like those crazy shadowbane or darkfall guys! I just like variety! When I quit, four battlegrounds just wasn't variety.
I should also note I participated in the mass battles at Tarren Mill and faction boss raids, but they were pretty much eh...
But hey, enough of my wow bashing. I hope you continue to enjoy your favorite game.
My favorite game was DAoC and SWG was a close second. I love the story behind WoW and how they tie it in throughout the game, but WoW is far from my favorite game. That doesn't mean I can't argue in favor for it when I think inaccurate or unfair statements have been made.
Originally posted by nate1980I could be wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what WoW brought to the table. What I listed is a short list of things WoW brought to the table. Now since they have, it's been copied by most companies with a brain, but it doesn't mean they didn't come up with a unique or original idea, which is what I thought you were implying.
Sorry, but most of the things on your list were on the table before wow. You should check out EQ (not to play, but the mechanics). There's a reason why some people get really huffy at people who call new games wow clones rather than eq clones. I did not play eq, but i'm familiar with some of the mechanics, which include massive raids bigger than wow. Also, now that I remember, SWG had mounts (actually they were speeders and hovercrafts), so I think almost every point on your list is now debunked. Sorry.
edit: not flying mounts. still don't know about that one.
Wouldn't be a whole lot of good things to take from WoW, but their would be plenty of bad to remove. Sad things is, the main thing wrong with it they CAN'T get rid of. That's most of the community. This is my opinion of course, but feel free to flame me anyways.
If new game come out that take all the good things about WoW, and polishes them Would that be a bad thing for the MMORPG commuity?
I see a lot of talk about WoW clones on MMORPG sites, yet none of these clones have anything close to the value and polishness of WoW. Aion seems far from being similar to WoW, yet its called a WoW clone. So what if games were to Copy only the good things about WoW,which most WoW clones dont, Would you dislike that?
WoW has taken many ideas from other games and have polished them. This is IMO the reason that WoW is so good. But what if other games started doing the same thing, instead of trying to replace everything WoW does, with a theme that just seem 100% Anti-WoW?
WoW has good things? like what?
Phazing? thats bascially instancing a quest hub. Ever try to meet up with someone on a different part of a chain within one of those areas? you cant!
Dual spec? What does it matter if you only have three options to choose from anyway? might as well just give everyone all the talents and abilities.
Wintergrasp? please i've had a better time Orvring in DAoC. its nothing new.
I will go on adn on if you ask me to but honestly Good things and WoW should not go together.
WoW took features from other games and made them easier not better. They expanded on nothing.
Really? I don't play wow, but to say things like this, and I'm sorry, really makes you look dumb. Phasing is not instancing. If I am on part three of a phasing area, and you are on part one, I can see you, and you can see me. I can't see the NPCs you can see, or the mobs, but I can see you fine.
Dual spec is great for the hybrid characters. So that Healers can solo by just a click of a button rather than a costly respec every day, a few times a day. There are three trees per class, good of you to notice, but their are multiple specs for many classes that use different talents from some trees.
Wintergrasp, meh. The vehicle combat makes it quite fun.
Obviously, good things and WoW DO go together. 11+ million people say so. But no, you are right, the game is bad lol.
They took features and made them easier and better. Better in the way that 11 million people enjoy them. It's fine if you don't enjoy WoW. That's great. I don't either. But how the game is doing proves that your opinion is just that.
The company that "rehashes" WOW the same way WOW "rehashed" EQ will be the Next Big Thing. Polished gameplay, tight interface/controls, interesting new world to explore, ditches the bad parts of the genre? Yes, gamers want all of that.
Perhaps not a high percentage of gamers in this forum, but a high percentage of the ones everywhere else (you know...the ones who aren't posting in this forum because they're too busy playing/enjoying their respective MMORPGs?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by nate1980I could be wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what WoW brought to the table. What I listed is a short list of things WoW brought to the table. Now since they have, it's been copied by most companies with a brain, but it doesn't mean they didn't come up with a unique or original idea, which is what I thought you were implying.
Sorry, but most of the things on your list were on the table before wow. You should check out EQ (not to play, but the mechanics). There's a reason why some people get really huffy at people who call new games wow clones rather than eq clones. I did not play eq, but i'm familiar with some of the mechanics, which include massive raids bigger than wow. Also, now that I remember, SWG had mounts (actually they were speeders and hovercrafts), so I think almost every point on your list is now debunked. Sorry.
edit: not flying mounts. still don't know about that one.
If you didn't play EQ, then you know just about as much as I do about EQ. WoW introduced quest based leveling, in EQ, it was more grind group based. WoW introduced gated raiding, whereas EQ's wasn't gated I don't think (could be wrong). Did SWG introduce those speeders before or after WoW released with mounts, because they weren't in at release in SWG.
If new game come out that take all the good things about WoW, and polishes them Would that be a bad thing for the MMORPG commuity?
I see a lot of talk about WoW clones on MMORPG sites, yet none of these clones have anything close to the value and polishness of WoW. Aion seems far from being similar to WoW, yet its called a WoW clone. So what if games were to Copy only the good things about WoW,which most WoW clones dont, Would you dislike that?
WoW has taken many ideas from other games and have polished them. This is IMO the reason that WoW is so good. But what if other games started doing the same thing, instead of trying to replace everything WoW does, with a theme that just seem 100% Anti-WoW?
WoW has good things? like what?
Phazing? thats bascially instancing a quest hub. Ever try to meet up with someone on a different part of a chain within one of those areas? you cant!
Dual spec? What does it matter if you only have three options to choose from anyway? might as well just give everyone all the talents and abilities.
Wintergrasp? please i've had a better time Orvring in DAoC. its nothing new.
I will go on adn on if you ask me to but honestly Good things and WoW should not go together.
WoW took features from other games and made them easier not better. They expanded on nothing.
i know your not the fanboi type, but what you just typed is ridiculous, expanding and using material from other games doesnt make a 5year+ running MMO with 11million+ subs running....... WoW has its uniqueness
What uniqueness? more people playing?
IM a old school player dude, I don't care how many people WoW brought to the genre. Give me a few examples of this uniqueness please.
Originally posted by nate1980I could be wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what WoW brought to the table. What I listed is a short list of things WoW brought to the table. Now since they have, it's been copied by most companies with a brain, but it doesn't mean they didn't come up with a unique or original idea, which is what I thought you were implying.
Sorry, but most of the things on your list were on the table before wow. You should check out EQ (not to play, but the mechanics). There's a reason why some people get really huffy at people who call new games wow clones rather than eq clones. I did not play eq, but i'm familiar with some of the mechanics, which include massive raids bigger than wow. Also, now that I remember, SWG had mounts (actually they were speeders and hovercrafts), so I think almost every point on your list is now debunked. Sorry.
edit: not flying mounts. still don't know about that one.
If you didn't play EQ, then you know just about as much as I do about EQ. WoW introduced quest based leveling, in EQ, it was more grind group based. WoW introduced gated raiding, whereas EQ's wasn't gated I don't think (could be wrong). Did SWG introduce those speeders before or after WoW released with mounts, because they weren't in at release in SWG.
So you really haven't debunked anything, sorry.
What are you talking about? I soloed more than half of my 65 levels in EQ....THROUGH quests and the occasional grind spot. I'm not quite sure what you mean by gate raiding. You mean instances?
What things would they take from WoW? Personally the only good thing about that game was the Dungeons because its the only time you ever grouped in that game. Make it so you can only complete dungeons one time and you only get the loot if you kill the boss. Also make it so you can only group up with people that have gotten as far as you in the dungeon. That way its a surprise when you do the run and you don't have some asshat telling you what to do. That is the only thing Id take from WoW and polish.
If new game come out that take all the good things about WoW, and polishes them Would that be a bad thing for the MMORPG commuity?
I see a lot of talk about WoW clones on MMORPG sites, yet none of these clones have anything close to the value and polishness of WoW. Aion seems far from being similar to WoW, yet its called a WoW clone. So what if games were to Copy only the good things about WoW,which most WoW clones dont, Would you dislike that?
WoW has taken many ideas from other games and have polished them. This is IMO the reason that WoW is so good. But what if other games started doing the same thing, instead of trying to replace everything WoW does, with a theme that just seem 100% Anti-WoW?
WoW took hardcore ideas, made them less hardcore to appeal to a broader base. What else do they do? They don't rush or push games out, they give it time, they give it money and they give it quality. This why they make mass-market games, because they know how to do them, and have the cash to do them.
If you're into simplified/softcore style of games, then I wouldn't really expect a "WoW-killer" until Blizzard makes another MMO.. or if Valve decides to get into the market themselves.
On the note of Aion not being like WoW, it is. WoW is to Everquest, then Aion is to Lineage II. In other words, it is making Korean MMOs more appealing to the less hardcore types.. the ones who dont want to experience grind every living day of their life.
I'd rather see a very different game that has some of WoW's positive attributes in common:
Great combat - very responsive, "feels" right, good impact effects, fast-paced
Lots of Polish
The talent system is excellent and provides many options. This is implemented much better than any similar system I've seen.
Numerous spells and abilities. There are lots for each class, and they're not extremely redundant like they are in many MMOs I've played. There are also some pretty cool, unique ones, like the mage's disappearing spell.
Originally posted by Axehilt The company that "rehashes" WOW the same way WOW "rehashed" EQ will be the Next Big Thing. Polished gameplay, tight interface/controls, interesting new world to explore, ditches the bad parts of the genre? Yes, gamers want all of that. Perhaps not a high percentage of gamers in this forum, but a high percentage of the ones everywhere else (you know...the ones who aren't posting in this forum because they're too busy playing/enjoying their respective MMORPGs?)
What are you talking about? I soloed more than half of my 65 levels in EQ....THROUGH quests and the occasional grind spot. I'm not quite sure what you mean by gate raiding. You mean instances?
Good, an EQ guy is here to set the facts straight. Just because YOU soloed doesn't mean that's what most people did or the fastest way to do things. After all, you can grind mobs in groups in WoW, it's just not the best way to do things. I've spoken to plenty of EQ people that said they would group up and grind. I chose DAoC over EQ, so I can only comment on it. While there were quests in DAoC, they didn't give xp. They were more about the story, and the rewards for doing them weren't bad. You could solo to max level in DAoC, but it was faster to group xp grind.
What I'm saying is that WoW introduced quest based leveling as being the most efficient way to level. I went from being mainly in a group, grinding on mobs in DAoC to grabbing a log full of quests, and grinding on quests solo in WoW. It was a completely different and unique way to play.
Gated raiding is something I described in my previous post, but I guess you skipped over it. Gated raiding is when you cannot do a raid dungeon until you've done the previous raid dungeons and have gotten all the gear necessary from it to be able to successfuly raid the harder dungeons. So for example, a game offers 3 raid dungeons at release. To raid dungeon #2, you need to raid dungeon #1 until you're geared out. Once you're geared out in dungeon #1 gear, you move on to raid dungeon #2. Once you're geared out with dungeon #2 gear, you're now strong enough to raid dungeon #3. That's gated raiding, because there are "gates" in place to prevent a max level toon from raiding a particular dungeon until the prerequisites are met.
DAoC didn't have gated raiding. Once you were max level, you could raid anything you liked if you had enough people, the right mix of classes, and enough player skill and knowledge. Raiding didn't depend upon having the best gear like in WoW. Since you're an actual EQ player, you can set the record straight. Did EQ have gated raiding, or could you raid anything once you reached max level?
I prefer non-gated raiding, like DAoC's, because I loathe grinding raid dungeons. But some people love gated raid dungeons, because it gives them a way to progress at max level. So I consider gated raiding to be a unique feature WoW brought to the MMORPG table.
What are you talking about? I soloed more than half of my 65 levels in EQ....THROUGH quests and the occasional grind spot. I'm not quite sure what you mean by gate raiding. You mean instances?
Good, an EQ guy is here to set the facts straight. Just because YOU soloed doesn't mean that's what most people did or the fastest way to do things. After all, you can grind mobs in groups in WoW, it's just not the best way to do things. I've spoken to plenty of EQ people that said they would group up and grind. I chose DAoC over EQ, so I can only comment on it. While there were quests in DAoC, they didn't give xp. They were more about the story, and the rewards for doing them weren't bad. You could solo to max level in DAoC, but it was faster to group xp grind.
What I'm saying is that WoW introduced quest based leveling as being the most efficient way to level. I went from being mainly in a group, grinding on mobs in DAoC to grabbing a log full of quests, and grinding on quests solo in WoW. It was a completely different and unique way to play.
Gated raiding is something I described in my previous post, but I guess you skipped over it. Gated raiding is when you cannot do a raid dungeon until you've done the previous raid dungeons and have gotten all the gear necessary from it to be able to successfuly raid the harder dungeons. So for example, a game offers 3 raid dungeons at release. To raid dungeon #2, you need to raid dungeon #1 until you're geared out. Once you're geared out in dungeon #1 gear, you move on to raid dungeon #2. Once you're geared out with dungeon #2 gear, you're now strong enough to raid dungeon #3. That's gated raiding, because there are "gates" in place to prevent a max level toon from raiding a particular dungeon until the prerequisites are met.
DAoC didn't have gated raiding. Once you were max level, you could raid anything you liked if you had enough people, the right mix of classes, and enough player skill and knowledge. Raiding didn't depend upon having the best gear like in WoW. Since you're an actual EQ player, you can set the record straight. Did EQ have gated raiding, or could you raid anything once you reached max level?
I prefer non-gated raiding, like DAoC's, because I loathe grinding raid dungeons. But some people love gated raid dungeons, because it gives them a way to progress at max level. So I consider gated raiding to be a unique feature WoW brought to the MMORPG table.
I agree. Most people in EQ grouped to do almost everything. I did groups constantly on my Ranger because it was almost what I HAD to do (Although I soloed with it as well). But I soloed almost exclusively on my Beastlord because it was doable with that class having the pet (Tank).
I suppose I agree that WoW brought gated raiding to MMO's exclusively. IMO, If anyone would and did, it was/would be them. They are the greediest company I have ever seen. I mean, it's ok to make tons of cash, that is any companies goal after all...but they are so obvious in their tactics it's almost funny. Of course they brought in gated raiding...how else can they be sure to keep you playing and paying by HAVING to go through to get the gear to be able to survive the next tier of raiding. In turn, making you spend countless more hours having to do so just to be able to get there. Otherwise people would get bored and move on since you can go 1 to 80 in less than a month....even without being hardcore IMO.
I agree. Most people in EQ grouped to do almost everything. I did groups constantly on my Ranger because it was almost what I HAD to do (Although I soloed with it as well). But I soloed almost exclusively on my Beastlord because it was doable with that class having the pet (Tank). I suppose I agree that WoW brought gated raiding to MMO's exclusively. IMO, If anyone would and did, it was/would be them. They are the greediest company I have ever seen. I mean, it's ok to make tons of cash, that is any companies goal after all...but they are so obvious in their tactics it's almost funny. Of course they brought in gated raiding...how else can they be sure to keep you playing and paying by HAVING to go through to get the gear to be able to survive the next tier of raiding. In turn, making you spend countless more hours having to do so just to be able to get there. Otherwise people would get bored and move on since you can go 1 to 80 in less than a month....even without being hardcore IMO.
Oh, I don't like it anymore than you do. For one, I'm not a loot centric person. I like getting upgrades, but upgrades isn't why I play a game. I play it for the adventure. After you master a dungeon, it's no longer an adventure, it's work. So making a person run something they've already mastered, for upgrades, just to run a new dungeon sucks. It makes the game centered around getting that loot, and most of the WoW community has adopted that mentality. It's what drives me crazy about this community, because they only care about the loot and judge your worth as a person by what you have equipped. It's a materialistic attitude, a very shallow one to have. The game breeds and encourages shallowness. It preys on peoples addictive behavior.
That's not to say their content isn't fun and that the gameplay isn't fun, but the purpose of the game is shallow, which makes the community shallow. You then see these same people trying out the newer games, complaining about a lack of raids, and epic loot. They don't realize that games never used to be centered around getting hard to get epic gear or raids for that matter. Games used to be centered on the adventure, the community, and the combination of those two.
I agree. Most people in EQ grouped to do almost everything. I did groups constantly on my Ranger because it was almost what I HAD to do (Although I soloed with it as well). But I soloed almost exclusively on my Beastlord because it was doable with that class having the pet (Tank). I suppose I agree that WoW brought gated raiding to MMO's exclusively. IMO, If anyone would and did, it was/would be them. They are the greediest company I have ever seen. I mean, it's ok to make tons of cash, that is any companies goal after all...but they are so obvious in their tactics it's almost funny. Of course they brought in gated raiding...how else can they be sure to keep you playing and paying by HAVING to go through to get the gear to be able to survive the next tier of raiding. In turn, making you spend countless more hours having to do so just to be able to get there. Otherwise people would get bored and move on since you can go 1 to 80 in less than a month....even without being hardcore IMO.
Oh, I don't like it anymore than you do. For one, I'm not a loot centric person. I like getting upgrades, but upgrades isn't why I play a game. I play it for the adventure. After you master a dungeon, it's no longer an adventure, it's work. So making a person run something they've already mastered, for upgrades, just to run a new dungeon sucks. It makes the game centered around getting that loot, and most of the WoW community has adopted that mentality. It's what drives me crazy about this community, because they only care about the loot and judge your worth as a person by what you have equipped. It's a materialistic attitude, a very shallow one to have. The game breeds and encourages shallowness. It preys on peoples addictive behavior.
That's not to say their content isn't fun and that the gameplay isn't fun, but the purpose of the game is shallow, which makes the community shallow. You then see these same people trying out the newer games, complaining about a lack of raids, and epic loot. They don't realize that games never used to be centered around getting hard to get epic gear or raids for that matter. Games used to be centered on the adventure, the community, and the combination of those two.
EXACTLY! That is what I try to explain (As nice as possible) at times in threads and get flamed for it anyways.
I thought I could stay out of the wow forums to avoid Wow Fanbois but apparently they are everywhere lol I wonder if the next expansion will have a limited edition ultra elite version that has a hole you can actually make love to your beloved game heh
There are (as always) a few people who don't keep up with WOW 2009 these days. Which makes these posts a real laugh te read really... Some examples ?: A dude mentioned "mountains you can't climb". A real laugh for those who played since TBC and Wotlk, since in those expansions you can fly freely with your personal mounts and land ANYWHERE on top of everything. Good laughs are also people who mention 'phasing" and never experienced the different forms of it (like the temporarely and the world changing phasings) ---> all with NO loading screens and no instances used as such. I bet most of these posters didn't even enter a Lake Wintergrasp battle nor did they storm the fortresses in the first encounters of Ulduar. Best price goes for the person who stated WOW needed more intelligent bosses. No surprise it was the same who invented the no mountains topping thing. When did that dude even play WOW )) I guess there is a LOT of catching up to do in Cataclysm to learn WOW 2009-10 again. )) ----------------------------------------------------------- ---> Do you want a simple and UNIQUE feature of WOW. Try the best fluid responsive controls of your (fighting) avatars. BEFORE and AFTER WOW you control stiff puppets with strings attached to hands feet and ass with a reaction time that is ALWAYS out of synch. In WOW when you hit ... your avatar HITS!. When you raise your hand to cast ... you CAST it NOW. That's a HUGE difference in games where you ARE you avatar for 5000+ hours played. ----> And then there are the 1200+ other "polished" features of course you can't find anywhere else. But the above is already 40% of WOW 's succes anyway... You should play it.... A nice game really.
Way to take my post out of context fanboy. The mountains in pre-expansion WoW are just walls/funnel. In outlands & Northrend they are walls that you can fly over. Which brings me to the most important thing. Meaningful travel. WoW does not have this. WoW, scripted raid events in instances (disgusting) does not constitute advanced AI. The only thing I agree with you on is the fluid responsive controls, and only that to a point. You see I would much rather aim rather than auto-attack and spells follow moving targets.
Wow was the worst thing to happen to MMO's. It caused a hiccup for a few years of innovation from companies trying to emulate WoW instead of trying to be different and bring something new to the table. But, I'm glad you like it.
Comments
The problem I would see isn't that "taking the good parts" is a bad thing.
You can basicly say that WoW did that with many previous MMO's. Then twisted it into the Warcraft universe... So in many ways its a game you already played.
My opinion of what is "good for the market" would be to actually do something different. You can't totally re-invent how MMO's work but you can decide to use different core systems..
I always wished someone took Ultima Online as it was in 97 or 98.. and then did more of everything with it. Game design at the moment seems more about packing everything into a little maze... where you actually have no choice but to follow the maze then they drop a story or quest in there to try and convince you that you had a choice.
/shrug
Nice...
i know your not the fanboi type, but what you just typed is ridiculous, expanding and using material from other games doesnt make a 5year+ running MMO with 11million+ subs running....... WoW has its uniqueness
Like...what? Not to bash ya man, but wow's about as plain as it gets. OK, I take that back. Wow does have a few unique things. More market than anyone else, and the most polished game on the market, but that's about it.
While I absolutely agree that WoW isn't the epitome of innovation, it is unique in that it supports pretty much every playstyle and has an unparallelled variety of gameplay compared to other games that often have a very narrow focus.
That's why I still play; it's the only game that lets me do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it.
I will respectfully disagree. WoW pigeonholes players into very specific playstyles, ultimately ending with a completely raid-oriented end-game. Pvp is but an afterthought, and don't even get me started on crafting, housing, or social dynamics. I've always seen wow as one of the more shallow mmos on the market, and I can't see how you see it as "unparrallelled variety of gameplay" when variety is the exact factor that wow fails so miserably in. That comment just really boggles me because your posts are usually spot on.
Explain to me why you think WoW's PvP is an afterthought and give me good examples of a game where it wasn't. Keep in mind my first MMORPG was DAoC, and I loved the RvR. But as far as PvP mini-games go, DAOC doesn't hold a candle to WoW, nor does it have arena style PvP. DAoC was a zerg fest. Whoever shot the first mezz off usually won the battle. Keep battles were fun, but usually took hours upon hours to finish, and that's once you got there. Travel time in DAoC was horrible for anyone wanting to get into the action quickly. You usually spent most of your time roaming with the zerg or 8 mans, trying to find someone to kill. When you actually did find someone to kill, they were usually fewer than you, and you dominated them. Those who could of posed a challenge, either died quickly since you mezzed them first, or you died quickly because they got off the first mezz.
I actually think Wintergrasp was a good take on siege PvP, and they have a couple BG's that do it as well. WoW has plenty of PvP minigames in the form of BG's that are just plain entertaining, sorta like a FPS game with multiple maps to choose from. The only annoying thing about PvP in WoW and why I don't do it anymore is that everyone has I-Win buttons. For example, a Rogue can stun lock you until dead or a Paladin can bubble, or a Warlock fears, to name a few.
i know your not the fanboi type, but what you just typed is ridiculous, expanding and using material from other games doesnt make a 5year+ running MMO with 11million+ subs running....... WoW has its uniqueness
Like...what? Not to bash ya man, but wow's about as plain as it gets. OK, I take that back. Wow does have a few unique things. More market than anyone else, and the most polished game on the market, but that's about it.
1. The massive number of quests and the ability to quest from 1-60.
2. Auction House (not sure if they were the first, but it was the first I seen of it)
3. Group instances with Elite mobs that only a group could kill. Other games had dungeons, but if you were high enough, you could solo the stuff in there. Or you could group with others and crawl to mobs high enough level to pose a challenge to your group. None of those dungeons offered loot that was uber as WoW's though.
4. UI functions. The dressing room, click to view details on others, right-click a name for a variety of options. You get the picture. They made UI extremely user friendly. Older games relied upon a lot of /slash commands.
5. Gated Raid content. Not sure about EQ, but DAoC's raid content was doable by anyone at max level. In WoW, you had to be geared out from previous raid dungeons to progress to the harder ones.
6. Flying Mounts, and perhaps mounts in general. Again, not sure about EQ, but DAoC didn't get mounts until after WoW came out with them.
7. Great Website. Websites are tools, tools that are very important to the game. DAoC had the herald, but WoW raised the bar with the amount of information available on it. Take Armory as an example.
I'm sure there's plenty of other features WoW had before other MMORPG's, but I can't spend all night thinking about it.
I'll give you point four. You are correct that wow's UI is hawt. I don't know about unique, but certainly well polished. Don't know about point six. Diablo 2 still has a better website than wow will ever have. Heck, I always though wow's site was trash. Very little useful information, no real reason to visit than to go to the forums. Thott had 10x more content about the game, and wow's armory is a copy of other better indie websites.
In the end, not much of what you listed is very unique to wow. You could say unique in that those elements have been polished better than basically any game, but it's the polish that gives those elements their uniqueness.
And I gotta say, in point one, do you really consider 1000 kill 10 rats and get ten boar guts quests really to be "quests"? They were just a glorified grinding mechanic that made you run all over the place like a chicken with your head cut off. Drove me absolutely batshit insane lol
I actually think Wintergrasp was a good take on siege PvP, and they have a couple BG's that do it as well. WoW has plenty of PvP minigames in the form of BG's that are just plain entertaining, sorta like a FPS game with multiple maps to choose from. The only annoying thing about PvP in WoW and why I don't do it anymore is that everyone has I-Win buttons. For example, a Rogue can stun lock you until dead or a Paladin can bubble, or a Warlock fears, to name a few.
When i played (and understand I quit right after we beat Naxx, right before BC), we had three battlegrounds in two years. I came back for a little bit during BC and at that point there was one more battleground and those retarded arenas (sorry if you like arenas, which i know a lot of people do). It was clear up until that point that wow's primary focus was (and I understand still is) pve, particularly raiding.
IMO, a game that made as much money as wow shoulda had like ten battlegrounds and plenty of top level lands for players to fight over resources. Every attempt until that point that Blizzard made with wow's pvp was half-hearted and ultimately junk. Heck, after BC, there were STILL only two top-level zones for people to compete in (which really didn't have anything to compete over) Eastern plaguelands, Silithus, that one zone in BC (I forget the name had a little island town in the middle), it was all just a waste of time. I'm not even a serious pvper like those crazy shadowbane or darkfall guys! I just like variety! When I quit, four battlegrounds just wasn't variety.
I should also note I participated in the mass battles at Tarren Mill and faction boss raids, but they were pretty much eh...
But hey, enough of my wow bashing. I hope you continue to enjoy your favorite game.
I could be wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what WoW brought to the table. What I listed is a short list of things WoW brought to the table. Now since they have, it's been copied by most companies with a brain, but it doesn't mean they didn't come up with a unique or original idea, which is what I thought you were implying.
My favorite game was DAoC and SWG was a close second. I love the story behind WoW and how they tie it in throughout the game, but WoW is far from my favorite game. That doesn't mean I can't argue in favor for it when I think inaccurate or unfair statements have been made.
Sorry, but most of the things on your list were on the table before wow. You should check out EQ (not to play, but the mechanics). There's a reason why some people get really huffy at people who call new games wow clones rather than eq clones. I did not play eq, but i'm familiar with some of the mechanics, which include massive raids bigger than wow. Also, now that I remember, SWG had mounts (actually they were speeders and hovercrafts), so I think almost every point on your list is now debunked. Sorry.
edit: not flying mounts. still don't know about that one.
Wouldn't be a whole lot of good things to take from WoW, but their would be plenty of bad to remove. Sad things is, the main thing wrong with it they CAN'T get rid of. That's most of the community. This is my opinion of course, but feel free to flame me anyways.
WoW has good things? like what?
Phazing? thats bascially instancing a quest hub. Ever try to meet up with someone on a different part of a chain within one of those areas? you cant!
Dual spec? What does it matter if you only have three options to choose from anyway? might as well just give everyone all the talents and abilities.
Wintergrasp? please i've had a better time Orvring in DAoC. its nothing new.
I will go on adn on if you ask me to but honestly Good things and WoW should not go together.
WoW took features from other games and made them easier not better. They expanded on nothing.
Really? I don't play wow, but to say things like this, and I'm sorry, really makes you look dumb. Phasing is not instancing. If I am on part three of a phasing area, and you are on part one, I can see you, and you can see me. I can't see the NPCs you can see, or the mobs, but I can see you fine.
Dual spec is great for the hybrid characters. So that Healers can solo by just a click of a button rather than a costly respec every day, a few times a day. There are three trees per class, good of you to notice, but their are multiple specs for many classes that use different talents from some trees.
Wintergrasp, meh. The vehicle combat makes it quite fun.
Obviously, good things and WoW DO go together. 11+ million people say so. But no, you are right, the game is bad lol.
They took features and made them easier and better. Better in the way that 11 million people enjoy them. It's fine if you don't enjoy WoW. That's great. I don't either. But how the game is doing proves that your opinion is just that.
The company that "rehashes" WOW the same way WOW "rehashed" EQ will be the Next Big Thing. Polished gameplay, tight interface/controls, interesting new world to explore, ditches the bad parts of the genre? Yes, gamers want all of that.
Perhaps not a high percentage of gamers in this forum, but a high percentage of the ones everywhere else (you know...the ones who aren't posting in this forum because they're too busy playing/enjoying their respective MMORPGs?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sorry, but most of the things on your list were on the table before wow. You should check out EQ (not to play, but the mechanics). There's a reason why some people get really huffy at people who call new games wow clones rather than eq clones. I did not play eq, but i'm familiar with some of the mechanics, which include massive raids bigger than wow. Also, now that I remember, SWG had mounts (actually they were speeders and hovercrafts), so I think almost every point on your list is now debunked. Sorry.
edit: not flying mounts. still don't know about that one.
If you didn't play EQ, then you know just about as much as I do about EQ. WoW introduced quest based leveling, in EQ, it was more grind group based. WoW introduced gated raiding, whereas EQ's wasn't gated I don't think (could be wrong). Did SWG introduce those speeders before or after WoW released with mounts, because they weren't in at release in SWG.
So you really haven't debunked anything, sorry.
WoW has good things? like what?
Phazing? thats bascially instancing a quest hub. Ever try to meet up with someone on a different part of a chain within one of those areas? you cant!
Dual spec? What does it matter if you only have three options to choose from anyway? might as well just give everyone all the talents and abilities.
Wintergrasp? please i've had a better time Orvring in DAoC. its nothing new.
I will go on adn on if you ask me to but honestly Good things and WoW should not go together.
WoW took features from other games and made them easier not better. They expanded on nothing.
i know your not the fanboi type, but what you just typed is ridiculous, expanding and using material from other games doesnt make a 5year+ running MMO with 11million+ subs running....... WoW has its uniqueness
What uniqueness? more people playing?
IM a old school player dude, I don't care how many people WoW brought to the genre. Give me a few examples of this uniqueness please.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Sorry, but most of the things on your list were on the table before wow. You should check out EQ (not to play, but the mechanics). There's a reason why some people get really huffy at people who call new games wow clones rather than eq clones. I did not play eq, but i'm familiar with some of the mechanics, which include massive raids bigger than wow. Also, now that I remember, SWG had mounts (actually they were speeders and hovercrafts), so I think almost every point on your list is now debunked. Sorry.
edit: not flying mounts. still don't know about that one.
If you didn't play EQ, then you know just about as much as I do about EQ. WoW introduced quest based leveling, in EQ, it was more grind group based. WoW introduced gated raiding, whereas EQ's wasn't gated I don't think (could be wrong). Did SWG introduce those speeders before or after WoW released with mounts, because they weren't in at release in SWG.
So you really haven't debunked anything, sorry.
What are you talking about? I soloed more than half of my 65 levels in EQ....THROUGH quests and the occasional grind spot. I'm not quite sure what you mean by gate raiding. You mean instances?
What things would they take from WoW? Personally the only good thing about that game was the Dungeons because its the only time you ever grouped in that game. Make it so you can only complete dungeons one time and you only get the loot if you kill the boss. Also make it so you can only group up with people that have gotten as far as you in the dungeon. That way its a surprise when you do the run and you don't have some asshat telling you what to do. That is the only thing Id take from WoW and polish.
WoW took hardcore ideas, made them less hardcore to appeal to a broader base. What else do they do? They don't rush or push games out, they give it time, they give it money and they give it quality. This why they make mass-market games, because they know how to do them, and have the cash to do them.
If you're into simplified/softcore style of games, then I wouldn't really expect a "WoW-killer" until Blizzard makes another MMO.. or if Valve decides to get into the market themselves.
On the note of Aion not being like WoW, it is. WoW is to Everquest, then Aion is to Lineage II. In other words, it is making Korean MMOs more appealing to the less hardcore types.. the ones who dont want to experience grind every living day of their life.
I'd rather see a very different game that has some of WoW's positive attributes in common:
Great combat - very responsive, "feels" right, good impact effects, fast-paced
Lots of Polish
The talent system is excellent and provides many options. This is implemented much better than any similar system I've seen.
Numerous spells and abilities. There are lots for each class, and they're not extremely redundant like they are in many MMOs I've played. There are also some pretty cool, unique ones, like the mage's disappearing spell.
have a blessed thread.
Good, an EQ guy is here to set the facts straight. Just because YOU soloed doesn't mean that's what most people did or the fastest way to do things. After all, you can grind mobs in groups in WoW, it's just not the best way to do things. I've spoken to plenty of EQ people that said they would group up and grind. I chose DAoC over EQ, so I can only comment on it. While there were quests in DAoC, they didn't give xp. They were more about the story, and the rewards for doing them weren't bad. You could solo to max level in DAoC, but it was faster to group xp grind.
What I'm saying is that WoW introduced quest based leveling as being the most efficient way to level. I went from being mainly in a group, grinding on mobs in DAoC to grabbing a log full of quests, and grinding on quests solo in WoW. It was a completely different and unique way to play.
Gated raiding is something I described in my previous post, but I guess you skipped over it. Gated raiding is when you cannot do a raid dungeon until you've done the previous raid dungeons and have gotten all the gear necessary from it to be able to successfuly raid the harder dungeons. So for example, a game offers 3 raid dungeons at release. To raid dungeon #2, you need to raid dungeon #1 until you're geared out. Once you're geared out in dungeon #1 gear, you move on to raid dungeon #2. Once you're geared out with dungeon #2 gear, you're now strong enough to raid dungeon #3. That's gated raiding, because there are "gates" in place to prevent a max level toon from raiding a particular dungeon until the prerequisites are met.
DAoC didn't have gated raiding. Once you were max level, you could raid anything you liked if you had enough people, the right mix of classes, and enough player skill and knowledge. Raiding didn't depend upon having the best gear like in WoW. Since you're an actual EQ player, you can set the record straight. Did EQ have gated raiding, or could you raid anything once you reached max level?
I prefer non-gated raiding, like DAoC's, because I loathe grinding raid dungeons. But some people love gated raid dungeons, because it gives them a way to progress at max level. So I consider gated raiding to be a unique feature WoW brought to the MMORPG table.
Good, an EQ guy is here to set the facts straight. Just because YOU soloed doesn't mean that's what most people did or the fastest way to do things. After all, you can grind mobs in groups in WoW, it's just not the best way to do things. I've spoken to plenty of EQ people that said they would group up and grind. I chose DAoC over EQ, so I can only comment on it. While there were quests in DAoC, they didn't give xp. They were more about the story, and the rewards for doing them weren't bad. You could solo to max level in DAoC, but it was faster to group xp grind.
What I'm saying is that WoW introduced quest based leveling as being the most efficient way to level. I went from being mainly in a group, grinding on mobs in DAoC to grabbing a log full of quests, and grinding on quests solo in WoW. It was a completely different and unique way to play.
Gated raiding is something I described in my previous post, but I guess you skipped over it. Gated raiding is when you cannot do a raid dungeon until you've done the previous raid dungeons and have gotten all the gear necessary from it to be able to successfuly raid the harder dungeons. So for example, a game offers 3 raid dungeons at release. To raid dungeon #2, you need to raid dungeon #1 until you're geared out. Once you're geared out in dungeon #1 gear, you move on to raid dungeon #2. Once you're geared out with dungeon #2 gear, you're now strong enough to raid dungeon #3. That's gated raiding, because there are "gates" in place to prevent a max level toon from raiding a particular dungeon until the prerequisites are met.
DAoC didn't have gated raiding. Once you were max level, you could raid anything you liked if you had enough people, the right mix of classes, and enough player skill and knowledge. Raiding didn't depend upon having the best gear like in WoW. Since you're an actual EQ player, you can set the record straight. Did EQ have gated raiding, or could you raid anything once you reached max level?
I prefer non-gated raiding, like DAoC's, because I loathe grinding raid dungeons. But some people love gated raid dungeons, because it gives them a way to progress at max level. So I consider gated raiding to be a unique feature WoW brought to the MMORPG table.
I agree. Most people in EQ grouped to do almost everything. I did groups constantly on my Ranger because it was almost what I HAD to do (Although I soloed with it as well). But I soloed almost exclusively on my Beastlord because it was doable with that class having the pet (Tank).
I suppose I agree that WoW brought gated raiding to MMO's exclusively. IMO, If anyone would and did, it was/would be them. They are the greediest company I have ever seen. I mean, it's ok to make tons of cash, that is any companies goal after all...but they are so obvious in their tactics it's almost funny. Of course they brought in gated raiding...how else can they be sure to keep you playing and paying by HAVING to go through to get the gear to be able to survive the next tier of raiding. In turn, making you spend countless more hours having to do so just to be able to get there. Otherwise people would get bored and move on since you can go 1 to 80 in less than a month....even without being hardcore IMO.
Oh, I don't like it anymore than you do. For one, I'm not a loot centric person. I like getting upgrades, but upgrades isn't why I play a game. I play it for the adventure. After you master a dungeon, it's no longer an adventure, it's work. So making a person run something they've already mastered, for upgrades, just to run a new dungeon sucks. It makes the game centered around getting that loot, and most of the WoW community has adopted that mentality. It's what drives me crazy about this community, because they only care about the loot and judge your worth as a person by what you have equipped. It's a materialistic attitude, a very shallow one to have. The game breeds and encourages shallowness. It preys on peoples addictive behavior.
That's not to say their content isn't fun and that the gameplay isn't fun, but the purpose of the game is shallow, which makes the community shallow. You then see these same people trying out the newer games, complaining about a lack of raids, and epic loot. They don't realize that games never used to be centered around getting hard to get epic gear or raids for that matter. Games used to be centered on the adventure, the community, and the combination of those two.
Oh, I don't like it anymore than you do. For one, I'm not a loot centric person. I like getting upgrades, but upgrades isn't why I play a game. I play it for the adventure. After you master a dungeon, it's no longer an adventure, it's work. So making a person run something they've already mastered, for upgrades, just to run a new dungeon sucks. It makes the game centered around getting that loot, and most of the WoW community has adopted that mentality. It's what drives me crazy about this community, because they only care about the loot and judge your worth as a person by what you have equipped. It's a materialistic attitude, a very shallow one to have. The game breeds and encourages shallowness. It preys on peoples addictive behavior.
That's not to say their content isn't fun and that the gameplay isn't fun, but the purpose of the game is shallow, which makes the community shallow. You then see these same people trying out the newer games, complaining about a lack of raids, and epic loot. They don't realize that games never used to be centered around getting hard to get epic gear or raids for that matter. Games used to be centered on the adventure, the community, and the combination of those two.
EXACTLY! That is what I try to explain (As nice as possible) at times in threads and get flamed for it anyways.
I thought I could stay out of the wow forums to avoid Wow Fanbois but apparently they are everywhere lol I wonder if the next expansion will have a limited edition ultra elite version that has a hole you can actually make love to your beloved game heh
Way to take my post out of context fanboy. The mountains in pre-expansion WoW are just walls/funnel. In outlands & Northrend they are walls that you can fly over. Which brings me to the most important thing. Meaningful travel. WoW does not have this. WoW, scripted raid events in instances (disgusting) does not constitute advanced AI. The only thing I agree with you on is the fluid responsive controls, and only that to a point. You see I would much rather aim rather than auto-attack and spells follow moving targets.
Wow was the worst thing to happen to MMO's. It caused a hiccup for a few years of innovation from companies trying to emulate WoW instead of trying to be different and bring something new to the table. But, I'm glad you like it.
You know, I think that just might be an entirely new concept. I applaud your ingenuity!!