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Developers are trapped in their own games
altairzq
Member Posts: 3,811
Developers now are making games that take one or two months to reach high level content.
This is insane.
It forces developers to create the whole game at once, which means most of it is rushed unfinished, lacking features, lacking content, etc. What we all have seen in the last few years. I would say that none of all the MMOs created recently manage to get our attention for more than a few months. Milions spent to I supose a fairly good revenue because otherwise nobody would be doing that by now but still not what this great genre deserves.
Developers have to put a stop to this nonsense, specially low budget ones because they are also trying this approach with extremely long developement times or really poor gameplay or both.
This is the new approach developers maybe should start trying instead:
Don't create a game at first. Just concentrate on creating a world. Make players relax, slow down their pace. There is no grind if you don't need to get to some level. Make getting better not a goal, but a consequence of living in that world. Then after release start creating end-level content. It doesn't need to be something major, just a few well epic bosses which we need to kill once in a while. The rest of the time we will be living in that world, exploring, finding special spots and treasures. I'm not saying this is easy to do, but if done right it can be interesting without the need to put a lot of content. Just slow our pace.
Don't add PVP, but let us attack everything in sight. It's not a contradiction. In life there is no PVP to speak of, but if I wanted to I could attack my neighbour. Of course it's not the same but it's just an idea. No need to balance stuff.
This is getting too long will leave it here for now.
Comments
I agree with you. Start with making a virtual fantasy world that is filled with magic and adventure first, that also promotes community.
I also believe that gear should be their to enhance the players individual style and persona, not be the determining factor in the players overall worth.
The basis of RPG's which came from fantasy novels wasn't about how the sword or armor made that hero omnipotent but the heroes heart and how he used the equipment that mattered.
''It's how you use the Sword that's important, not who owns It! You can't even understand something as simple as that, that's why your human'' - Masamune - Chrono Trigger.
Yay, a 3d virtual chatroom.. that fixes everything.
Your comment really does nothing more than show your lack of imagination. Is there really any better time to say go back to wow?
The OP clearly stated that his idea is more than a 3d chat room, or more than just a world that you wander around aimlessly in. You could really reference his idea more to pre-cu swg, which in many ways is a relatively accurate description of what he's talking about. A "world" ready for "content". Of course, we all know that SOE choose to abandon making content and instead decided to change the game, and that there were challenges and long development times just to create the world, but that doesn't mean the idea isn't sound. Although I must admit I'm not a fan of his last paragraph open pvp idea. But then again I'm a bit biased because I don't support the open pvp mechanic.
Your comment really does nothing more than show your lack of imagination. Is there really any better time to say go back to wow?
The OP clearly stated that his idea is more than a 3d chat room, or more than just a world that you wander around aimlessly in.
The OP might have clearly stated that, but in reality a 3d chatroom is what the 'game' would be like.
Lenin clearly stated in the 1920's that in the newly born Soviet Union everyone would be equal with each other and that poverty would cease to exist. Now look what happened.
Sure in the OP's imagination this could work. In reality, things are a bit more complex than that though.
First you complain that recent MMOs are "rushed, unfinished, lacking features" then you want your virtual world MMO to launch without end game? What?!
So, basically your ideal MMO is unfinished and lacking features.
Hello contradiction!
An MMORPG engine is a sunk cost. Hosting each player averages less than a penny an hour. What your fee pays for in an MMORPG is the content. When somebody blows through the content overnight and then demands that he be given some new kind of "endgame" isn't doing anyone any favors.
In pretty much every endeavor, about 80% of its marginal profits are going to come from about 20% of its customers. Even if a business starts out with the best product in the world, if they focus all their efforts on appeasing their most difficult customers, they are eventually going to lose all of the profitable business: All the customers out there quietly paying their bills and not happily enjoying the product.
It would be ridiculously easy to put soft caps on progression speed. The sad and pathetic souls who invest their self-esteem in a role playing game can powerlevel, share accounts, or exploit anything they want. The would still be allowed to think they "win", because they'll always be a few levels ahead of all the normal players.
But letting them blow through two years worth of content after paying one month's dues, and then having them scream at the tops of their lungs about how there's "nothing to do" doesn't benefit anyone. Least of all themselves.
Yes a 3d chat room would be a big part of it true but also there would be more to it as Zazzon says. I never played pre-cu Swg but I did play pre-PoP EQ and in that time we werent thinking about getting to lvl 50. Yes we loved levelling and the ding but there was so much stuff to do all around and it was so involving that the reason to go fight in a dungeon wasn't to get quicker to high level. This changed with next expansions and player mentallity changed with them. By then I remember people fighting mobs in a cavern over and over again because the experience was better there. This was the start of the decline.
And we called the developers Gods, as someone said they called the swg devs too. We have to go back to that mentallity. And for that, the developers have to create a "vision" (I know Brad tried it) and stick to it. Pretty much like the guys at Mortal Online are doing with first person view, they are having a lot of criticism about that, many people saying they are not going to play the game because of that, and yet they stick to it.
I don't mean an MMO that would be unfinished, rushed and lacking features. What I mean is this:
MMOs now:
newbie...>.....>......>.....>.........void....>........>........>.........>.........>.........>.........half assed end content
From newbie to end content the game is so lacking that everybody complains about grind and lack of content and the jurney is just plain boring.
What an MMO should be IMO:
A sphere or a circle which I can't draw here. There is no arrow to anywhere, this is the main thing. No arrow. You just do stuff and as a consequence you will get better at what you do but this is not the main thing.
I know to fill that sphere with content is pretty much impossible, that is why I say they have change the way we play now. We got to slow down. As an example of what I mean:
Imagine someone in a regular modern MMO tells another "hey want to check out this cool play I found there is a cave and I just can't go in alone and maybe there is something cool inside", who is going to go? nobody. People is too worried trying to get gear or materials to be competitive. Ok so to be able to go with that guy and explore you have to have nothing better to do. You are just hanging around.
"OMG hanging around this is terrible nobody is going to play that". Ok. But as silence is needed to have music, you need to have down time in an MMO to do other stuff when the situaction arises. If you are constantly hearing to noise all day, and this is what modern MMOs are, you can't distinguish the sounds.
You're right about the problem. But I don't know how the developers could achieve what you're trying to say.
There must be a point to the game A direction to follow.. Right now it's progression of your character, but what would you replace it with? Or how would you change the emphasis from progression to something else? It must have more significance than leveling up, or it's not going to work..
Kinda sounds like what Bioware is attempting to do with TOR.
Shift the focus from ding-chasing to story progression where one happens to level up along the way.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Kinda sounds like what Bioware is attempting to do with TOR.
Shift the focus from ding-chasing to story progression where one happens to level up along the way.
If people will accept it, it might work. But from what I've seen, players often give the story less emphasis than progressing the character.. so we'll see what comes out of it.
They're on the right track, however.
Kinda sounds like what Bioware is attempting to do with TOR.
Shift the focus from ding-chasing to story progression where one happens to level up along the way.
If people will accept it, it might work. But from what I've seen, players often give the story less emphasis than progressing the character.. so we'll see what comes out of it.
They're on the right track, however.
Works for single-player games, not so sure the mainstream MMO player will get it.
But it's nice to see 'em trying something new, nonetheless.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I've played single player RPGs with over 100 hours of gameplay to reach the end content. That's about 1-2 months of hardcore gaming and roughly the time it takes to hit max level in most modern P2P MMOs. The single player games have much more engaging content and focus less on grinding.
Why's it acceptable for MMORPG developers to not have their game finished on release? What you are basically saying is don't bother finishing the game because you can just throw content in later (imagine if a major single player game tried to get away with that). You want developers to focus on the world over gameplay? Well, running around in a world with virtually no gameplay... why the hell not just make a 3D chatroom? Gameplay is the most important aspect of ANY game, who cares if there is a world with no gameplay? I don't understand how you can find it acceptable to pay for unfinished products with virtually no or little gameplay (Mortal Online?).
PvP isn't for everyone either (and allowing you to attack everyone IS PvP). In real life you might be able to attack your neighbor but there will be severe consquences. MMOs rarely have any major penalties in place. You can behave like a psychopath and kill everyone you see with little punishment. Sure you can agrue players can make the punishment, but with little consquence (you might have your equipment taken away and some time wasted - but that's about it) this is going to occur way more rampantly than in real life. Most of the time the PvP isn't the least bit fun to the average player (who likes extremely lopsided battles that you have no chance of winning - or 100% chance of winning? - competitive fair PvP environments are more fun, I don't understand why people favor open world ganking so much).
The average gamer isn't big on multiplayer competition. The majority of the best selling video games of all time are single player games. World of Warcraft and Halo series are exceptions, but keep in mind that World of Warcraft was a PvE focused game and had almost no PvP on release. Halo may be a big multiplayer game, but it has a single player game too and a lot of casualHalo players probably never even played an online match in Halo.
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. The problems that MMORPGs are having with being rushed started when they began making online games to appeal to kids. Anyone that has young kids will tell you that they are in a hurry to do "everything all at once". As for end game, well to me end game isn't about content that developers created, but what the players themselves contributed. Such as creating a guild, helping low level characters, creating events, etc..
When I played EQ, I had a guild and my officers amd I would hang around areas like East Freeport scattered in different areas of the zone acting like NPCs. I would shout something like "Hail mighty and young adventuers, I am soandso seeking brave young souls seeking riches and glory, blah blah blah. After a minute a newbie would come up to me saying the "magic phrase" and then I would send them on a hunt. My officers would then be waiting untill a player apraoched them to get the next clue. Once they found all the appropriate pieces, the last officer would give them a really nice weapon (sword, staff, etc...) of thier choice or something that would things a little easier.
I would also run guild events such as storylines. I ran a storyline once that ran for two weeks that kept the members absolutely captivated. They were all on edge, couldn't wait to get off work to log in to see what the latest developments were, etc... It was great. The storyline was simple. I was a Cleric (I know, a bit unorthodox for a guild leader), I invited a new character into the guild (an alt of one of my high ranking officers), who was disguised as an old love that went bad and went the route of necro. My character thought she was dead and long forgotten. Upon being accepted into the guild under disguise, she became increasingly fitful until finally kidnapping my character and then taking contol of my character to bring havoc to the guild. I would sign into the game invisible and then univis long enough to taunt the guild or do some kill stealing to a member, etc...and then just disappear. In the meantime there were several attempts by members to rescue me, break her enchantement etc.. Ater two weeks, we ended up in a necro cave outside of EFP (can't remember the name) where a final battle between her character and mine took place. The great thing was, she "accidently" casted an aoe that caused the skeletons around to attack her and kill her. So in the end she was taken by her own craft and kind.
That was end game back in the day. Today's new breed of players are lazy and want everything handed to them.
A tiny mind is a tidy mind...
This is my theory: it takes years and years to make an MMO, good or bad, and developers will never know how many people will join at first. Before launch when the developers do know how many people will join they think they might be ready and make more servers but that does not guarantee the servers will hold and there will be no problems.
I actually blame us gamers, hear me out. 1 - 2 months to reach max? really. I am not wanting to offend anyone reading this so please do not misread what I am saying but if it takes you just 1 - 2 months to max out a toon in any MMO then you really should get out more. Now I do understand (psych major) that some people are not as social or others are kind of a recluse (which is fine, I actually am more of a recluse myself) but I think it is the gamer that is at fault, not for everything but for some, because the developer cannot, at least right now with technology, make an MMO that will take you one year to max out; far too much content, quests, enemies, etc. would be needed.
I understand the grind thing, that could be worked out by the developers, but if you max a toon out in a month then I would not blame the developer. My first MMO was WOW and it took me 1 1/2 years to get my 1st (and still only) toon to level 80. Not joking there. I am a casual gamer but I understand that it would be way too hard for a developer to completely, completely, please the community. It is a hard business that we all do not, still, know about.
I don't think it's the developers that are trapped in their own games, it is the gamer that is trapped; the developer is trying to help the gamer out as much as possible (some of the time).
Which is why the developers are trapped as well; as long as they do what players want, we'll never get a truly spectacular game again.
very good argument but it is a a double-edged sword. Gamers want companies to listen to make the game better, which it could -but- the companies can make a game better w/o the gamers opinions. Sometimes a gamers opinion can make a game worse. I think that if a company threw in every, single, idea gamers had for 1 game that game would be very very very bad. MMOs, though more common, are still in infancy if you think about it. I try not to complain much. I take what life, and MMOs, bring
There will always be controversy with MMOs
It costs more than a "penny" an hour to host a player.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I have said this for a while. It needs to take longer to get to end game. I am not advocating making the "grind" longer to hide the flaws in your product. If the game is unfinished or unpolished it won't matter how long it takes to get to end level.
But it needs to take longer for several reasons. It gives time for the community to grow. Probably only 10% of the community will hear about or jump onboard a game upon release. If a population reaches endgame in 3 months or less than the game becomes "old" before it even gets a chance to become popular.
Also, remember devs makemoney of sub fees, if people are maxing out in 1 month than the development company can't collect those fess to use in improving the game. of course some companies may just milk it, but if they are samrt they will reinvest that money to improve their product. This means more content for us players.
T make a game take longer I suggest they just make leveling slower (or add more levels). If don't think people will mind slower leveling if the content is interesting such as quests that tie into story arcs, interesting zones, etc.
Also stop hand feeding us telling us exactly where to go. WoW clone style games aren't hard when most of your quests are kill x wolves, collect x wolf pelts etc. Stop telling us exactly where to go on top of it. Give people a challange and have some hidden quests hubs in the game.
The problem, here, lies with the customer, the gamer; us. The MMO machine has evolved because it's customer base has evolved. MMO's have taken a step into the spotlight. They have morphed from being a specialized niche in the gaming industry, to a major genre.
I would imagine it being hard, finding the right progression balance. You have people such as yourself, who seem to enjoy the journey rather than the destination. Then you have many people who don't want to spend weeks of their lifes trying to progress to the next level as they have limited play time and they, too, wish to experience higher-game content as well. You need to realize that the gaming companies work hard to cater to both player types as both tyoes make up a large portion of the market.
I actually stopped playing City of Heroes just because I found it too much of grind so there is something to be considered for too slow of a progression. The key to all of this is game content. The more of it you have (and in good variety) the less of a daunting task it seems to level a character. If the developers want to put the brakes on leveling, then they need to make sure that there is at least 3 times as much content than needed to get you to the any given level. There is nothing worse than being mid level and unable to find a quest or mission anywhere to help you progress. We all know that grinding mobs is like pulling teeth when it comes to leveling.
I, personally, think that the devs need to take a class in quest writing. That is the one area in MMO's that lacks imagination and innovation. There are so many things they can do to provide players interesting and varying ways to progress. I can think of about 50 things that would make for a more interesting level progression.
Regardless, it's all about finding the right pace for progression. Afterall, they have to attempt to satisfy all of us. In my opinion, I think LOTRO has found a perfect level progression pace and they provide more than enough content at any given level to mix it up and keep you very occupied to the point where you even forget about your level entirely.
Precisely my point is that there is no journey. Journey to where? No, there is no journey, there is just living in a world full of danger and helping some cause maybe, exploring, making friends and enemies. But there is no (F-word) journey to end level. This is precisely the trap devs and players are in.
AND MMOs are not games, they are something bigger than games, and this is why they are failing now, devs are making games and have forgotten how to make a damn good MMO.
Where are the MMORPGs which are not games? Last I checked, UO->EQ->WOW represents a transition from world simulation towards games.
You like world simulation. We get it. It's fair for you to want games made for your tastes. But you can't deny that MMORPGs have gained popularity in leaps and bounds as they've become more game-like and less simulation-like.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Where are the MMORPGs which are not games? Last I checked, UO->EQ->WOW represents a transition from world simulation towards games.
You like world simulation. We get it. It's fair for you to want games made for your tastes. But you can't deny that MMORPGs have gained popularity in leaps and bounds as they've become more game-like and less simulation-like.
Ok, but you can't deny either that people are less and less enthusiastic about MMOs every time. I know the big part of players just don't give a dam, don't go to forums, and just play the games if they have a minimum of fancy graphics and cool weapons. But I think in a very short time, maybe already, the only MMOs casual people will play will be huge triple A games that cost a fortune to make. What I'm saying might be a path to follow for the indies. Right now they are going for the full PVP full loot, because that's cheap, no need for content. But it puts off a lot of people that don't have the skill or simply don't want to face the ganker kids and all that stuff.
A large fault being made here, I think, is the OP's lack of understanding in regard to the very nature of the human being. You see, a large part of the reason we have this "grind" and level progression is due to the fact that, by nature, humans are achievement oriented. We make up something we want to do, and then discover the route to doing it. Once its done we feel good, and begin IMMEDIATELY looking for that feeling again. Its subconcious as hell.
So what MMO devs have done is cut out the search part of that equation. They GIVE you a thing to want to achieve...a level. A piece of gear. Perhaps a title. In the end these are things you would have decided on your own regardless. Everything in life, let alone a video game, is about progression...about moving forward and above what you currently are. in the trappings of a game, this entirely revolves around making the character you play become something more than what he is given to you as. You can SAY, "I don't want my players to be focused on progression" all you like...but its not going to change the fact that EVERYTHING about reality as we know it revolves around progression in some form or fashion. Even silly puzzle games have it...in the form of stages that get harder...proving, each victory, that you are somehow smarter, greater, and better.
The reason the level format has been so favored is because in a game...we don't WANT to feel like we're in the real world. We want the less-fun parts cut out. One of those parts is the "discovery" of what thing we wish to achieve. We still NEED to have goals, and in fact these goals will always be the same regardless.
The job of a GAME developer is to make these goals obvious, and the work transparent. A large effort towards work transparency has been questing...covering up the xp grind with little jobs. The result is the same, you want xp to gain a level so that your character becomes greater than he was. But instead of focusing on JUST this, you are given ANOTHER goal to disguise the first. In this way you are able to do the same thing for months and not be AS aware of it.
What you SHOULD be thinking about is what other options there are for transparency in progression. In fact, what progression do you even have? Most games focus on the personal combat strength of the player, because there isn't much else TO focus on. But there COULD be. Even still, just with combat progression, there may be yet thousands of ways to cover the TERMS of progression other than questing.
I'll stop at this. I could actually detail, to a nauseating degree, precisely what I mean...and even lay out an entire game in such a way. Just remember, in order to understand what makes a game good...you have to understand how people behave, and what drives the human mind. You cannot simply say, "make a world" without understanding why we play games, and what such a world would mean. Is it a mimicry of the real world? Even such a thing would have progression laced so deeply into it you may as well start assigning xp totals to the bus fair. If it were possible for people to be content without constant new achievement...we'd all still be working our first jobs and living in the house we were born in.
Where are the MMORPGs which are not games? Last I checked, UO->EQ->WOW represents a transition from world simulation towards games.
You like world simulation. We get it. It's fair for you to want games made for your tastes. But you can't deny that MMORPGs have gained popularity in leaps and bounds as they've become more game-like and less simulation-like.
Ok, but you can't deny either that people are less and less enthusiastic about MMOs every time. I know the big part of players just don't give a dam, don't go to forums, and just play the games if they have a minimum of fancy graphics and cool weapons. But I think in a very short time, maybe already, the only MMOs casual people will play will be huge triple A games that cost a fortune to make. What I'm saying might be a path to follow for the indies. Right now they are going for the full PVP full loot, because that's cheap, no need for content. But it puts off a lot of people that don't have the skill or simply don't want to face the ganker kids and all that stuff.
The reason that this is so, and the reason you, and even myself, are loving the genre less each pass is very simple.
We've already experienced it. We've already achieved what these games set out for us.
Doesn't matter what trappings cover it, the potato is still a potato and we're all damn ready for beans.
Oh we might nibble some potato on the side now and again...but its taste has long since lost its sparkle, and we could never commit meals to it again.
I still enjoy Morrowind, even though I have played it for years and never reached the "end game". I also never cared about levels in Morrowind. It was all about exploring. Likewise, I still enjoy playing Battlefield 2 even though I've played it since release, and I would still play Medal of Honor: Allied Assault if there were still servers up to play on and nobody cheated. I think you are right to a degree, that we were amazed by the massive online world to play in with lots of other people, and now that newness is gone... but the real problem is that now that we have already experienced that aspect of MMOs, we notice the rest of the game more, and the rest of the game just doesn't hold up. MMOs are a chore. A boring, grinding, chore. Someone needs to figure out how to make a game in a massive online world FUN. I think a large part of the solution is to get rid of levels. Levels are a cheap and outdated method to create a "goal". Levels segregate the player base, promote boring grinds, and lead players to rush through content to get to the "end game". A MMO should not have an end game.