Originally posted by huntardOriginally posted by Legato89
SWG did an excellent job by making sure each player was a lowly grunt, and once they stood out by unlocking Jedi they had a hefty bounty placed on their head. This typee mechanic works well,
I disagree, that IS the reason why SWG started going down hill, the holo grind became the main focus because unlocking Jedi (which at the time was an Alpha class) was the ONLY thing most people wanted to do and destroyed SWG.
/QFT
1. Any modern game designer KNOWS better than to create a game in which the main goal requires playing in a way that is not enjoyable; especially to make it purposefully unenjoyable. That's MMO sub poison.
2. Any modern game designer knows better than to create a game in which a teeny tiny minority of people can play a class which is a great deal more powerful than the vast majority of the players. When you give 1% the "I win" button, don't be surprised when the remaining 99% quit. And that's what they did.
Unfortunately, that lesson has to be learned at the expense of countless amounts of lost fun time for us players. However, I have to disagree that *all* game designers know this. In fact, I refer you to Eve Online as an example of a game that is designed to do the opposite of both of your rules, and hook their players out of sheer perversity or something.
Not to be all Eve-bashy, but this is to your points - Eve seems deliberately designed to hold your gameplay back waiting (and waiting, and waiting) on training time, which constrains the amount of fun you can actually have in the game. I mean, you literally cannot DO things until training time has completed, many of them to a certain depth in the tree and with cross-relations to OTHER skills which need to be trained, burying you in researching the skill tree to find out wtf you need to do before you can actually PLAY lol. Most players actually rely on third-party tools just to know what to train, so there's proof that the game designers don't even really care if you know what to do in order to play the game.
And anyone who has completed x amount of training more than you (for instance, Tech 2 weapons or a Tech 2 ship, usually both) can absolutely pwn your Tech 1 butt without any fears at all. It's not exactly your 1% example because if anyone trains long enough, they''ll get the cool stuff too, but that's the hidden barb on the hook- you need to stay in and keep paying that sub for the "free offline training" for months and months and months so that eventually, you can overcome the disadvantage.
I think part of Eve's continuing success is that CCP spread a huge story to them about how special you had to be to "enjoy" playing Eve, so when you raise questions like this, you get the zombie chant "Maybe Eve isn't the game for you. Maybe Eve isn't the game for you." What exactly does it mean to say that? I'm not the right person to point out that the emperor has no clothes? lol. But the players will chant it at you and keep paying their subs to prove they're having fun /shrug
But back to your points, despite the game design which breaks both of those rules, Eve is still monetarily successful. It's even been successful long enough to be funding the development of other games now (Dust and some werewolf game).
I just hope that as you say, by now most MMO designers have learned that most people who play MMOs do so for fun, to have said fun with other people, and if there's competition, to feel like they have a chance of winning. That combination was the hook for me with Planetside, and when 1 part went away (the chances of winning became dependent on who had a BFR, and later, who had a Galaxy Gunship, or a Phantom, etc.) , so did I.
All are valid points.
I think the reason Eve survives is because my "point A" is taken in Eve, and actually bolstered in Eve: You don't have to grind or play the game in a way that's not enjoyable in order to advance to, in one example, tech 2 ships. You can use your tech 1 ship to do whatever you want while waiting for your tech 2 skill to finish. Unlike the jedi system in pre-NGE SWG, you're not forced to grind career paths via actual gameplay to get those skills. You don't have to go out and mine 5000 asteroids, then manufacture 2000 ships, then kill 50000 rats, then courier 100000000 square meters of cargo in a shuttle to get your tech 2 skill. In this manner, it's less of a grind than most other MMO's. Of course, drumming up the isk to BUY or manufacture a tech 2 ship is a different story.
The SWG jedi is far more cut and dried. They were pretty much more powerful in every respect than the other classes, whereas a tech 2 frigate may not be able to take a tech 1 cruiser that's built with certain armament. Unless things have changed significantly since I played Eve, a tech 2 ship isn't the "I win" button that being a pre-nge Jedi was.
I didn't read passed the first sentence of the OP. No major project like this will fail. It is not easy to fail when you have a budget the size this game does. And this is not including BioWare's stellar background.
Don't act like you know what you are talking about and state your lackluster opinions as fact. It just makes you look worse.
The OP wasn't actually claiming that 1 game will be better than the other, so you can all stop stroking your male Ego's now.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
I think the reason Eve survives is because my "point A" is taken in Eve, and actually bolstered in Eve: You don't have to grind or play the game in a way that's not enjoyable in order to advance to, in one example, tech 2 ships. You can use your tech 1 ship to do whatever you want while waiting for your tech 2 skill to finish. Unlike the jedi system in pre-NGE SWG, you're not forced to grind career paths via actual gameplay to get those skills. You don't have to go out and mine 5000 asteroids, then manufacture 2000 ships, then kill 50000 rats, then courier 100000000 square meters of cargo in a shuttle to get your tech 2 skill. In this manner, it's less of a grind than most other MMO's. Of course, drumming up the isk to BUY or manufacture a tech 2 ship is a different story.
The SWG jedi is far more cut and dried. They were pretty much more powerful in every respect than the other classes, whereas a tech 2 frigate may not be able to take a tech 1 cruiser that's built with certain armament. Unless things have changed significantly since I played Eve, a tech 2 ship isn't the "I win" button that being a pre-nge Jedi was.
Hmm, I'd disagree that Eve is designed to be enjoyable to play. Per the developers, they just provide the environment, and "the players make the game". Which is always an invitation for the biggest @sshats to get together and set the rules right into the toilet lol.
But EO gameplay aside, I didn't play SWG for more than an hour as I could immediately tell SOE had set us players up to be their b*tches again, instead of making a game that would actually be fun enough to play so they didn't have to rely on "the grind" to keep us paying a sub. And with the Star Wars franchise too. You have to be made of fail to screw that up.
So I'm not qualified to go farther on the whole Jedi power thing. I will say that I tried a couple of other Bioware products to see how they roll, and I am definitely impressed with their style. Also, the world design is a hook for me, as I'm huge Explorer on the Barton chart - seeing what's around the corner or over the next hill is a big part of my fun. So the videos showing how they designed the world for "reveals" really got my attention.
So, I'm going to try it out for sure, and if it's not all I hoped, oh well, but I bet it'll still be a lot of fun.
Well, in the time frame that the game (TOR) takes place, it actually does fit the lore, being that there were tons of jedi and sith at the time. This doesn't take place any where near any of the movies so you are wrong on that point. Also the jedi classes aren't looking to even BE over powered if you'd even watched any of the character videos and how they work you might know this. Also Bioware is known vastly for their ability to produce a quality game, From BAULDERS FUCKING GATE .....to the kotors, mass effect etc... so if you think they are not able to make a good game with very good story and character progression then you don't know good rpg's when you see them, plain and simple. From what i've seen so far it's going to be a completely different type of MMO which is great. IMO it looks like a game, not a Fantasy World Simulator like most games try to be.
This kind of post is just as exciting and new as the many "its not star warzy enough" posts. Its not SWG2, its not meant to be. It most likely will not appeal to the people who still hold a torch for pre-CU SWG (or any sandbox game). That doesn't mean it will fail, and it doesn't mean that the game will suck. It just means you won't like it, and the mythical you in this instance does not speak for the majority of people.
This kind of post is just as exciting and new as the many "its not star warzy enough" posts. Its not SWG2, its not meant to be. It most likely will not appeal to the people who still hold a torch for pre-CU SWG (or any sandbox game). That doesn't mean it will fail, and it doesn't mean that the game will suck. It just means you won't like it, and the mythical you in this instance does not speak for the majority of people.
Yes, another themepark with classes and levels. Hello Kitty Online with lightsabers.
I'm just glad it's not another broken buggy sandbox with subs hanging under 50k and no sense of direction.
Watch how well "Hello kitty Online with lightsabers" does compared to your game of choice. I'm not garenteeing BioWare taking the lead in the industry, but I garentee most people will go to something more functional and enjoyable over something broken and frustrating.
Well, in the time frame that the game (TOR) takes place, it actually does fit the lore, being that there were tons of jedi and sith at the time. This doesn't take place any where near any of the movies so you are wrong on that point. Also the jedi classes aren't looking to even BE over powered if you'd even watched any of the character videos and how they work you might know this. Also Bioware is known vastly for their ability to produce a quality game, From BAULDERS FUCKING GATE .....to the kotors, mass effect etc... so if you think they are not able to make a good game with very good story and character progression then you don't know good rpg's when you see them, plain and simple. From what i've seen so far it's going to be a completely different type of MMO which is great. IMO it looks like a game, not a Fantasy World Simulator like most games try to be.
The thing is - a world simulator is what an MMORPG is supposed to be.
Mythic said they were making a game, not a world - and gave us Warhammer Online.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The OP was just looking to moan about SWG NGE is all.
Personally I enjoy most bioware games (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, NWN, KotOR...)
I'm not real happy about what they picked for classes either however. Seems a bit to hard on the Jedi (4 of 8 classes?...I guess) I also don't like how they put Smugglers and Bounty Hunters on "Sides".
Oh well, I'm sure it will be a good game...if it runs which western made games are notorious for really bad technical launches.
The problem with dialogue-driven games - Bioware's approach - is that no matter what you choose, your 'destiny' is already laid out because all the possible alternatives are already thought of, every ramification is already there. You cannot create an unique character because you'll walk a dev-pre-determined-path. No matter what you'll do you have zero impact on the game / world. It will be like playing a single player game with occasional henchmen.. erhm... other players, running full-strife towards a well known end-point.
And what will the end-game be like? You, maxed level, doing what? Raiding Jabba? Playing rock-paper-scisors with Sarlaac (I KNOW its not the correct timeframe </sarcasm>)? Doing PvP on a territory / planet / station with no actual consequence?
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
The problem with dialogue-driven games - Bioware's approach - is that no matter what you choose, your 'destiny' is already laid out because all the possible alternatives are already thought of, every ramification is already there. You cannot create an unique character because you'll walk a dev-pre-determined-path. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but that was a given, that was expected since the story has already been written out for you to play. What matters is being able to kill the quest giver for disrespecting your mother. Of coarse that is a silly example, I'm sure you got it, but you can never be to sure on this board. No matter what you'll do you have zero impact on the game / world. It will be like playing a single player game with occasional henchmen.. erhm... other players, running full-strife towards a well known end-point. You may be right about not having an actual impact on the game world, to me the journey is important with or with out a noticable (to another player) impact on the world. The only difference is I can happily enjoy the choices with guildmates. And what will the end-game be like? You, maxed level, doing what? Raiding Jabba? Playing rock-paper-scisors with Sarlaac (I KNOW its not the correct timeframe </sarcasm>)? Doing PvP on a territory / planet / station with no actual consequence? End-game is still an unknown. PvP consequence is unknown. And what's wrong with raiding Jabba? That fat bastard is probably loaded with credits.
The problem with dialogue-driven games - Bioware's approach - is that no matter what you choose, your 'destiny' is already laid out because all the possible alternatives are already thought of, every ramification is already there. You cannot create an unique character because you'll walk a dev-pre-determined-path. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but that was a given, that was expected since the story has already been written out for you to play. What matters is being able to kill the quest giver for disrespecting your mother. Of coarse that is a silly example, I'm sure you got it, but you can never be to sure on this board. No matter what you'll do you have zero impact on the game / world. It will be like playing a single player game with occasional henchmen.. erhm... other players, running full-strife towards a well known end-point. You may be right about not having an actual impact on the game world, to me the journey is important with or with out a noticable (to another player) impact on the world. The only difference is I can happily enjoy the choices with guildmates. And what will the end-game be like? You, maxed level, doing what? Raiding Jabba? Playing rock-paper-scisors with Sarlaac (I KNOW its not the correct timeframe </sarcasm>)? Doing PvP on a territory / planet / station with no actual consequence? End-game is still an unknown. PvP consequence is unknown. And what's wrong with raiding Jabba? That fat bastard is probably loaded with credits.
No offence taken, it's a free mature discussions. We're just laying out our thoughts.
The reason for my 'angry' post is simple - Star Wars has always been a dynamic universe. Be it in movies, in books or comics. The reason I <b>think</b> PvP has no consequence is because a dynamic world would f*ck up their storyline laid down for the players. You can't expect the Empire to take over a Rebel base and still get quests there if you're a Rebel, roam around and not being shot out of the orbit when approaching the sector.
Why bother choosing factions then? Why are the developers so scared of setting players loose and letting THEM deciding the politics? What's wrong in one faction taking over? Ruins the world? Hardly. It only stirs up 'patriotic' feelings in the other faction's players to huddle up and strike back.
</rant>
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
Originally posted by Beermangler Why bother choosing factions then? Why are the developers so scared of setting players loose and letting THEM deciding the politics? What's wrong in one faction taking over? Ruins the world? Hardly. It only stirs up 'patriotic' feelings in the other faction's players to huddle up and strike back.
That sounds good, but as I learned from Warhammer's meaningful PvP - most MMO players have no balls. They are cowardly accountants, who only look to gear up.
Mythic designed the PvP to get Pve players involved, but the effect was to choke scenarios with gutless whiners who quit a match after doing a quick count of healers.
PvP needs either to be the main objective of a game, or a sideline that doesn't appeal to such types of players. A secondary means of progression (including leveling).
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Beermangler Why bother choosing factions then? Why are the developers so scared of setting players loose and letting THEM deciding the politics? What's wrong in one faction taking over? Ruins the world? Hardly. It only stirs up 'patriotic' feelings in the other faction's players to huddle up and strike back.
That sounds good, but as I learned from Warhammer's meaningful PvP - most MMO players have no balls. They are cowardly accountants, who only look to gear up.
Sad but true.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
No offence taken, it's a free mature discussions. We're just laying out our thoughts. The reason for my 'angry' post is simple - Star Wars has always been a dynamic universe. Be it in movies, in books or comics. The reason I <b>think</b> PvP has no consequence is because a dynamic world would f*ck up their storyline laid down for the players. You can't expect the Empire to take over a Rebel base and still get quests there if you're a Rebel, roam around and not being shot out of the orbit when approaching the sector. Why bother choosing factions then? Why are the developers so scared of setting players loose and letting THEM deciding the politics? What's wrong in one faction taking over? Ruins the world? Hardly. It only stirs up 'patriotic' feelings in the other faction's players to huddle up and strike back. </rant>
The story takes place where a treaty is in place, quote from the FAQ.
Star Wars: The Old Republic takes place more than 3,500 years before the rise of Darth Vader. The most powerful Sith Empire in history has emerged from deep space to attack the Republic and its legendary Jedi guardians. After decades of war, a tenuous truce has been established between the Sith Empire and the Republic, but events occurring in the game are leading the galaxy back to an all-out war.
Now I'm no prophet, but I can give you an educated guess as to how I see the story unfolding in terms of PvP. As you can see a treaty is in place, preventing either side from engaging the other. However this is not always the case.
Balmorra
Few places in the galaxy have seen the peace promised by the Treaty of Coruscant so thoroughly cast aside as the world of Balmorra. Fiercely independent, this long time ally of the Republic has led the galaxy in advanced droid and weapons manufacturing. Now Balmorra’s workers live and suffer under a full Imperial occupation force.
Few planets actually abide by the treaty or recieve the resrouces to police the planet. This is leading me to believe many planets will have you engaging the opponent. The second part may be important, and may play part of that consequence. "What if" that weapons manufacturing facility was to be seized by the Empire. Could this give the Empire access to new technology, some sort of planet benefit. Same could be said if the Republic remained in control.
BioWare is new to the MMO genre and to PvP. But I don't see something like this being far-fetched in their hands.
Originally posted by Beermangler Why bother choosing factions then? Why are the developers so scared of setting players loose and letting THEM deciding the politics? What's wrong in one faction taking over? Ruins the world? Hardly. It only stirs up 'patriotic' feelings in the other faction's players to huddle up and strike back.
That sounds good, but as I learned from Warhammer's meaningful PvP - most MMO players have no balls. They are cowardly accountants, who only look to gear up.
Mythic designed the PvP to get Pve players involved, but the effect was to choke scenarios with gutless whiners who quit a match after doing a quick count of healers.
PvP needs either to be the main objective of a game, or a sideline that doesn't appeal to such types of players. A secondary means of progression (including leveling).
First time I think I have ever said this. But I for once agree with you. And the highlight probably holds the most truth.
I do see a lot of players chosing Jedi right off the bat but i don't see it failing either.
I knew immediately when SWG was announced and I looked at the features there was no way to make a massive game, and make some class 'rare".
WTF I wondered, how are they going to do that and make a fun game?
Was it going to be random so people re-rolled and re-rolled till they got a Jedi?
Nope, turns out it was just a crappy game mechanic of grind every skill in the game to unlock Jedi. Do the most boring thing we can think of to get the cool character.
Bleh, what a horrible design. It was always doomed to failure.
Because SWG was based in a timeline where the Jedi were almost extinct!
So they made unlocking jedi an insane grind and very hard to do, so the game would not directly be overrun with jedi's all over the place. That many still managed to unlock and jedi were running all over the place a year later. That's a different matter lol.
But still they made it really great with the Bounty Hunter system.
SWG Pre-NGE had it's flaws sure. But a lot of things were done right. And the bounty hunter system being one of them.
People had a blast tracking and hunting down jedi's.
And because the XP penalty was so extremely harsh, the people that were jedi kept often a very low profile and didn't brag about it, to avoid being detected and end up in the bounty system.
"a tenuous truce has been established" Sounds awfully familiar to this former WoW player.
That may be true, but to be fair WoWs pvp was fantastic before the HW grinds and battlegrounds rolled around. If you're going to seperate the focus on PvP into battlefields at least give me a huge open world to do it in.
Originally posted by greed0104 That may be true, but to be fair WoWs pvp was fantastic before the HW grinds and battlegrounds rolled around. If you're going to seperate the focus on PvP into battlefields at least give me a huge open world to do it in.
Well, I hate mis-matches and WoW's open PvP was a griefer's paradise. Not to mention the slideshow that Crossroads was much of the time.
I'd like to see some 'contested' planets with level restrictions, so that something resembling a fair fight could be expected. Have them be PvP sandboxes with resources and locations to win and lose.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well, I hate mis-matches and WoW's open PvP was a griefer's paradise. Not to mention the slideshow that Crossroads was much of the time. I'd like to see some 'contested' planets with level restrictions, so that something resembling a fair fight could be expected. Have them be PvP sandboxes with resources and locations to win and lose.
Part of being an MMO player with balls is to accept the fact that you can be griefed in PvP, it is possible to destroy another player with quite a few levels on you. Out smart them, out maneuver them, out play them.
I support any and every fight, I want chaos, there should be no honor in war. I'm the type of player that welcomes a good camping party, even if I'm the campfire. It's good fun, it provides me the consequences of failure or success. I'm a PvP player first and a rule follower last. I will do anything I can to win a fight when I'm out leveled/geared. I will fight honorably with friends or people I have respect for, however, if you should find yourself on the other side of the fence, I will follow through with whats necessary to kill you, above or below me in level etc.
Since most people have a hard time reading my emotions. I'm not being an asshole, just saying. It's part of the experience. I am for some sort of controlled mechanic in pvp though.
Comments
I disagree, that IS the reason why SWG started going down hill, the holo grind became the main focus because unlocking Jedi (which at the time was an Alpha class) was the ONLY thing most people wanted to do and destroyed SWG.
/QFT
1. Any modern game designer KNOWS better than to create a game in which the main goal requires playing in a way that is not enjoyable; especially to make it purposefully unenjoyable. That's MMO sub poison.
2. Any modern game designer knows better than to create a game in which a teeny tiny minority of people can play a class which is a great deal more powerful than the vast majority of the players. When you give 1% the "I win" button, don't be surprised when the remaining 99% quit. And that's what they did.
Unfortunately, that lesson has to be learned at the expense of countless amounts of lost fun time for us players. However, I have to disagree that *all* game designers know this. In fact, I refer you to Eve Online as an example of a game that is designed to do the opposite of both of your rules, and hook their players out of sheer perversity or something.
Not to be all Eve-bashy, but this is to your points - Eve seems deliberately designed to hold your gameplay back waiting (and waiting, and waiting) on training time, which constrains the amount of fun you can actually have in the game. I mean, you literally cannot DO things until training time has completed, many of them to a certain depth in the tree and with cross-relations to OTHER skills which need to be trained, burying you in researching the skill tree to find out wtf you need to do before you can actually PLAY lol. Most players actually rely on third-party tools just to know what to train, so there's proof that the game designers don't even really care if you know what to do in order to play the game.
And anyone who has completed x amount of training more than you (for instance, Tech 2 weapons or a Tech 2 ship, usually both) can absolutely pwn your Tech 1 butt without any fears at all. It's not exactly your 1% example because if anyone trains long enough, they''ll get the cool stuff too, but that's the hidden barb on the hook- you need to stay in and keep paying that sub for the "free offline training" for months and months and months so that eventually, you can overcome the disadvantage.
I think part of Eve's continuing success is that CCP spread a huge story to them about how special you had to be to "enjoy" playing Eve, so when you raise questions like this, you get the zombie chant "Maybe Eve isn't the game for you. Maybe Eve isn't the game for you." What exactly does it mean to say that? I'm not the right person to point out that the emperor has no clothes? lol. But the players will chant it at you and keep paying their subs to prove they're having fun /shrug
But back to your points, despite the game design which breaks both of those rules, Eve is still monetarily successful. It's even been successful long enough to be funding the development of other games now (Dust and some werewolf game).
I just hope that as you say, by now most MMO designers have learned that most people who play MMOs do so for fun, to have said fun with other people, and if there's competition, to feel like they have a chance of winning. That combination was the hook for me with Planetside, and when 1 part went away (the chances of winning became dependent on who had a BFR, and later, who had a Galaxy Gunship, or a Phantom, etc.) , so did I.
All are valid points.
I think the reason Eve survives is because my "point A" is taken in Eve, and actually bolstered in Eve: You don't have to grind or play the game in a way that's not enjoyable in order to advance to, in one example, tech 2 ships. You can use your tech 1 ship to do whatever you want while waiting for your tech 2 skill to finish. Unlike the jedi system in pre-NGE SWG, you're not forced to grind career paths via actual gameplay to get those skills. You don't have to go out and mine 5000 asteroids, then manufacture 2000 ships, then kill 50000 rats, then courier 100000000 square meters of cargo in a shuttle to get your tech 2 skill. In this manner, it's less of a grind than most other MMO's. Of course, drumming up the isk to BUY or manufacture a tech 2 ship is a different story.
The SWG jedi is far more cut and dried. They were pretty much more powerful in every respect than the other classes, whereas a tech 2 frigate may not be able to take a tech 1 cruiser that's built with certain armament. Unless things have changed significantly since I played Eve, a tech 2 ship isn't the "I win" button that being a pre-nge Jedi was.
I didn't read passed the first sentence of the OP. No major project like this will fail. It is not easy to fail when you have a budget the size this game does. And this is not including BioWare's stellar background.
Don't act like you know what you are talking about and state your lackluster opinions as fact. It just makes you look worse.
The whole thread is based around this video www.youtube.com/watch
The OP wasn't actually claiming that 1 game will be better than the other, so you can all stop stroking your male Ego's now.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
All are valid points.
I think the reason Eve survives is because my "point A" is taken in Eve, and actually bolstered in Eve: You don't have to grind or play the game in a way that's not enjoyable in order to advance to, in one example, tech 2 ships. You can use your tech 1 ship to do whatever you want while waiting for your tech 2 skill to finish. Unlike the jedi system in pre-NGE SWG, you're not forced to grind career paths via actual gameplay to get those skills. You don't have to go out and mine 5000 asteroids, then manufacture 2000 ships, then kill 50000 rats, then courier 100000000 square meters of cargo in a shuttle to get your tech 2 skill. In this manner, it's less of a grind than most other MMO's. Of course, drumming up the isk to BUY or manufacture a tech 2 ship is a different story.
The SWG jedi is far more cut and dried. They were pretty much more powerful in every respect than the other classes, whereas a tech 2 frigate may not be able to take a tech 1 cruiser that's built with certain armament. Unless things have changed significantly since I played Eve, a tech 2 ship isn't the "I win" button that being a pre-nge Jedi was.
Hmm, I'd disagree that Eve is designed to be enjoyable to play. Per the developers, they just provide the environment, and "the players make the game". Which is always an invitation for the biggest @sshats to get together and set the rules right into the toilet lol.
But EO gameplay aside, I didn't play SWG for more than an hour as I could immediately tell SOE had set us players up to be their b*tches again, instead of making a game that would actually be fun enough to play so they didn't have to rely on "the grind" to keep us paying a sub. And with the Star Wars franchise too. You have to be made of fail to screw that up.
So I'm not qualified to go farther on the whole Jedi power thing. I will say that I tried a couple of other Bioware products to see how they roll, and I am definitely impressed with their style. Also, the world design is a hook for me, as I'm huge Explorer on the Barton chart - seeing what's around the corner or over the next hill is a big part of my fun. So the videos showing how they designed the world for "reveals" really got my attention.
So, I'm going to try it out for sure, and if it's not all I hoped, oh well, but I bet it'll still be a lot of fun.
There aren't going to be long,mind numbing and boring grinds to become a jedi plus it won't be an alpha class. This isn't SOE or SWG.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I never played Jedi in SWG and it wont be any different for me in Tor , no jedi for me .
Well, in the time frame that the game (TOR) takes place, it actually does fit the lore, being that there were tons of jedi and sith at the time. This doesn't take place any where near any of the movies so you are wrong on that point. Also the jedi classes aren't looking to even BE over powered if you'd even watched any of the character videos and how they work you might know this. Also Bioware is known vastly for their ability to produce a quality game, From BAULDERS FUCKING GATE .....to the kotors, mass effect etc... so if you think they are not able to make a good game with very good story and character progression then you don't know good rpg's when you see them, plain and simple. From what i've seen so far it's going to be a completely different type of MMO which is great. IMO it looks like a game, not a Fantasy World Simulator like most games try to be.
This kind of post is just as exciting and new as the many "its not star warzy enough" posts. Its not SWG2, its not meant to be. It most likely will not appeal to the people who still hold a torch for pre-CU SWG (or any sandbox game). That doesn't mean it will fail, and it doesn't mean that the game will suck. It just means you won't like it, and the mythical you in this instance does not speak for the majority of people.
Quoted for truth. This post says it all.
Yes, another themepark with classes and levels. Hello Kitty Online with lightsabers.
Good storyline.... AoC has some good storylines on wether you decide and... well, you know.
It is a question of fangs.
I'm just glad it's not another broken buggy sandbox with subs hanging under 50k and no sense of direction.
Watch how well "Hello kitty Online with lightsabers" does compared to your game of choice. I'm not garenteeing BioWare taking the lead in the industry, but I garentee most people will go to something more functional and enjoyable over something broken and frustrating.
The thing is - a world simulator is what an MMORPG is supposed to be.
Mythic said they were making a game, not a world - and gave us Warhammer Online.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The OP was just looking to moan about SWG NGE is all.
Personally I enjoy most bioware games (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, NWN, KotOR...)
I'm not real happy about what they picked for classes either however. Seems a bit to hard on the Jedi (4 of 8 classes?...I guess) I also don't like how they put Smugglers and Bounty Hunters on "Sides".
Oh well, I'm sure it will be a good game...if it runs which western made games are notorious for really bad technical launches.
The problem with dialogue-driven games - Bioware's approach - is that no matter what you choose, your 'destiny' is already laid out because all the possible alternatives are already thought of, every ramification is already there. You cannot create an unique character because you'll walk a dev-pre-determined-path. No matter what you'll do you have zero impact on the game / world. It will be like playing a single player game with occasional henchmen.. erhm... other players, running full-strife towards a well known end-point.
And what will the end-game be like? You, maxed level, doing what? Raiding Jabba? Playing rock-paper-scisors with Sarlaac (I KNOW its not the correct timeframe </sarcasm>)? Doing PvP on a territory / planet / station with no actual consequence?
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
No offence taken, it's a free mature discussions. We're just laying out our thoughts.
The reason for my 'angry' post is simple - Star Wars has always been a dynamic universe. Be it in movies, in books or comics. The reason I <b>think</b> PvP has no consequence is because a dynamic world would f*ck up their storyline laid down for the players. You can't expect the Empire to take over a Rebel base and still get quests there if you're a Rebel, roam around and not being shot out of the orbit when approaching the sector.
Why bother choosing factions then? Why are the developers so scared of setting players loose and letting THEM deciding the politics? What's wrong in one faction taking over? Ruins the world? Hardly. It only stirs up 'patriotic' feelings in the other faction's players to huddle up and strike back.
</rant>
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
That sounds good, but as I learned from Warhammer's meaningful PvP - most MMO players have no balls. They are cowardly accountants, who only look to gear up.
Mythic designed the PvP to get Pve players involved, but the effect was to choke scenarios with gutless whiners who quit a match after doing a quick count of healers.
PvP needs either to be the main objective of a game, or a sideline that doesn't appeal to such types of players. A secondary means of progression (including leveling).
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That sounds good, but as I learned from Warhammer's meaningful PvP - most MMO players have no balls. They are cowardly accountants, who only look to gear up.
Sad but true.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
The story takes place where a treaty is in place, quote from the FAQ.
Star Wars: The Old Republic takes place more than 3,500 years before the rise of Darth Vader. The most powerful Sith Empire in history has emerged from deep space to attack the Republic and its legendary Jedi guardians. After decades of war, a tenuous truce has been established between the Sith Empire and the Republic, but events occurring in the game are leading the galaxy back to an all-out war.
Now I'm no prophet, but I can give you an educated guess as to how I see the story unfolding in terms of PvP. As you can see a treaty is in place, preventing either side from engaging the other. However this is not always the case.
Balmorra
Few places in the galaxy have seen the peace promised by the Treaty of Coruscant so thoroughly cast aside as the world of Balmorra. Fiercely independent, this long time ally of the Republic has led the galaxy in advanced droid and weapons manufacturing. Now Balmorra’s workers live and suffer under a full Imperial occupation force.
Few planets actually abide by the treaty or recieve the resrouces to police the planet. This is leading me to believe many planets will have you engaging the opponent. The second part may be important, and may play part of that consequence. "What if" that weapons manufacturing facility was to be seized by the Empire. Could this give the Empire access to new technology, some sort of planet benefit. Same could be said if the Republic remained in control.
BioWare is new to the MMO genre and to PvP. But I don't see something like this being far-fetched in their hands.
That sounds good, but as I learned from Warhammer's meaningful PvP - most MMO players have no balls. They are cowardly accountants, who only look to gear up.
Mythic designed the PvP to get Pve players involved, but the effect was to choke scenarios with gutless whiners who quit a match after doing a quick count of healers.
PvP needs either to be the main objective of a game, or a sideline that doesn't appeal to such types of players. A secondary means of progression (including leveling).
First time I think I have ever said this. But I for once agree with you. And the highlight probably holds the most truth.
I knew immediately when SWG was announced and I looked at the features there was no way to make a massive game, and make some class 'rare".
WTF I wondered, how are they going to do that and make a fun game?
Was it going to be random so people re-rolled and re-rolled till they got a Jedi?
Nope, turns out it was just a crappy game mechanic of grind every skill in the game to unlock Jedi. Do the most boring thing we can think of to get the cool character.
Bleh, what a horrible design. It was always doomed to failure.
Because SWG was based in a timeline where the Jedi were almost extinct!
So they made unlocking jedi an insane grind and very hard to do, so the game would not directly be overrun with jedi's all over the place. That many still managed to unlock and jedi were running all over the place a year later. That's a different matter lol.
But still they made it really great with the Bounty Hunter system.
SWG Pre-NGE had it's flaws sure. But a lot of things were done right. And the bounty hunter system being one of them.
People had a blast tracking and hunting down jedi's.
And because the XP penalty was so extremely harsh, the people that were jedi kept often a very low profile and didn't brag about it, to avoid being detected and end up in the bounty system.
"a tenuous truce has been established"
Sounds awfully familiar to this former WoW player.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That may be true, but to be fair WoWs pvp was fantastic before the HW grinds and battlegrounds rolled around. If you're going to seperate the focus on PvP into battlefields at least give me a huge open world to do it in.
Well, I hate mis-matches and WoW's open PvP was a griefer's paradise. Not to mention the slideshow that Crossroads was much of the time.
I'd like to see some 'contested' planets with level restrictions, so that something resembling a fair fight could be expected. Have them be PvP sandboxes with resources and locations to win and lose.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Part of being an MMO player with balls is to accept the fact that you can be griefed in PvP, it is possible to destroy another player with quite a few levels on you. Out smart them, out maneuver them, out play them.
I support any and every fight, I want chaos, there should be no honor in war. I'm the type of player that welcomes a good camping party, even if I'm the campfire. It's good fun, it provides me the consequences of failure or success. I'm a PvP player first and a rule follower last. I will do anything I can to win a fight when I'm out leveled/geared. I will fight honorably with friends or people I have respect for, however, if you should find yourself on the other side of the fence, I will follow through with whats necessary to kill you, above or below me in level etc.
Since most people have a hard time reading my emotions. I'm not being an asshole, just saying. It's part of the experience. I am for some sort of controlled mechanic in pvp though.