Originally posted by SnarlingWolfOriginally posted by Angelof2070
This is sad... Growing up with violent movies/games, I'm not one to say much about most things...
But the "it's just a game" mantra is getting a little ridiculous. It's not just a game. It is well-known in social sciences that people who become desensitized to violence become more aggressive. While this won't spark something as ridiculous as what Modern Warfare shows (virtual Genocide) it is certainly not healthy for society and is quite barbaric. It's one thing when the horde of enemies are murderous thugs or "evil goblins" or an honorable war. But to kill defenseless civilians who scream and cry out for mercy? It's just taking it too far.
What's next? A virtual torture game where you win the level once you get the information out of your victim? Enough is enough. Corporate greed needs to back off and take their hands off their wallets for a second and consider something most of us like to call: Dignity. Because the only reason they did this is because it sells.
I look down on Shameless Corporate Greed. If you're gonna be greedy... at least have a little respect for yourself and the society you pollute.
First of all, wrong. There were a few flawed studies that showed a connection between watching violence and being more violent as a child (no studies showed the correlation in adults, or bothered to restudy the children once they were adults). But many more studies showed that there was NOT a direct correlation between video game violence and real world aggression/violence. So nice try on that one.
We can't spend life sheltering people for how horrific parts of life are, that is what truly desensitizes people.
I am not wrong. I am a real Psychologist who follows scholarly journals based on real science. You on the other hand I guarantee get all your news of such studies from DATELINE episodes of "Do video games cause violence? The Columbine Massacre."
Epic fail. Saying "First of all, wrong!" doesn't make the facts go away. In fact, it just shows everyone else that you truly don't know what you're talking about.
Second, not allowing mass-murder and horrific violence in video games isn't sheltering people. It's in fact the exact opposite- purposefully feeding them aggression, violence, and what all people would be considered "evil". The middle ground would be to not purposefully shelter them from it, but not purposefully feed it to them either.
Also, sheltering people from horror in NO WAY desensitizes people to it. In fact, sheltered people will find it SIGNIFICANTLY more "horrific" than someone who wasn't sheltered. Sheltering others will make them MORE sensitive to things (often considered overly-sensitive) which is the opposite of desensitizing them.
Couch Potato Psychology FTL.
Please leave it to the experts who actually study these fields with real scientific studies... not internet rumors, DATELINE commercials, and common ignorance.
I won't argue anymore than this post though. What are your credentials in psychology or sociology? None?
I actually have a degree in it, and real evidence not random assumptions. Seriously... since when does sheltering people DESENSITIZE them? LoL.../
How can video games cause violence? Seriously it makes no sense. Violence has been around since the dawn of man not the dawn of video games.
Let me ask you one question. Since you seem to think you are smart or something.
If one million people play the same video game and one person goes out and shoots up a school. Can you explain to me how it was the video game that cause this to happen? Since only 1 out of 1 million did the shooting?
It makes no sense. Video games, music, movies cannot cause people to be violent only violent people can cause violence.
Video games(books, etc) do not *cause* violence, in and of themselves. But they can influence peoples internal mental processes(for good or ill). What choices people make determine if their actions are good or evil. Saying something like "its only a game" is much akin to saying that the bible is "only a book". Both are true, after a fashion. But neither takes in to account the impact they can have on people. Once again, I do NOT want such games banned. But people *are* responsible for their actions/in actions.
Yes "PEOPLE" are responsible for their actions not video games, not movies, not music. PEOPLE.
It is only a game and the Bible is only a book. Those are facts. People choose how to react to those things. They cannot influence people unless they want to be influence by them. A person is going to comit violence if that is what they want to do, they will blame (along with the media) whatever they want to blame. People do not take responsiblity for their actions anymore.
The problem I have with people like yourself is that you believe that games, movies, books, ect can influence people to do bad things, that simply is not true, bad people do bad things. Period. No outside influence is needed.
Violence has been around as long as humans. Humans are violent by nature. That is just how it is, we as humans forget that we are nothing more then animals. We want to believe we are more then just animals but we are not.
Which part of people *are* responsible for their actions/in actions didn't you understand?? It doesn't matter what influenced them, they are still responsible for their own actions. Correlation is not causality. Games are games. Books are books. People are responsible for their own actions(again). But attempting to claim that games, books, etc have no influence on people is foolish. But influence does not force choices. Those *choices* are still made by the people involved. Given that humans are the dominant *predator* species on the planet, I'd say that inherent violence is a given. But its the choices people make that determine the nature of their actions.
An interesting article.. and certainly something that deserves a good debate.
I think there is a difference between PvE and PvP morality.. as in.. how you 'treat' computer generated 'enemies' versus how you treat other flesh & blood players. If your pretending to be the bad guy, its your job to do things that are 'bad' or order to create the illusion.. otherwise the story is irrelevant.
Still... I believe there is a limit to this, or at least.. some morality that needs to be exerted by the game developers to ensure that the game is not simply about being a mass murderer. I think I have to be a lot more dilligent in what games I allow my kids to play.. particularly when not supervised.
George Lucas stated it pretty well in an interview... I don't have it verbatum, but the gist of it was:
'Most bad guys justify doing bad things for their own perception of the greater good. They don't see themselves as evil, but rather are willing to bend or break what is perceived as good or bad for their own advancement."
I think MMO's do 'miss the boat' on this quite often... and in ways that seem uncessary. Some games allow 'mining' for credits... while also allowing 'privateering' off those very same players as a more lucrative and.. to a large degree.. more exciting game choice. There are few ways to be a 'good guy' and still fire a blaster or weild a sword. Protecting others is not generally done very well.. particularly in PvP based missions.
I think Star Wars The Old Replubic intends on creating more 'moral' or 'decision based' consequences to games in their theme-park storylines. They seem to have the gigantic budget necessary to pull it off (with voice over).
There are few games that reward being a good guy and not simply killing everything in sight. City of Heroes seems to pretty well at it in theme.. good guys stopping bad guys.. but then there is also City of Villians produced to cater to the 'bad guy' crowd as well.
However, for the smaller MMO's.. the 'moral' community tends to be between players.. all NPCs actions being more a matter of whats more 'efficient' than any sort of moral choice.
What this means to me.. as a father.. is that some games my kids simply will not get to play till they are adults and have a firm foundation in what is 'right or wrong' behavior.. even if its 'virtual' behavior.
I remember when I was showing my 10 year old daughter the SWTOR 'Deceived' game trailer. She was upset.. why.. because the 'good guy lost'. Her moral compass at age 10 is better that a lot of adults three or four times her age. I didn't even think of it before hand.. what kind of message it was portraying.. by looking at it now through my daughters eyes, I see it clear as day.
I remember when I was showing my 10 year old daughter the SWTOR 'Deceived' game trailer. She was upset.. why.. because the 'good guy lost'. Her moral compass at age 10 is better that a lot of adults three or four times her age. I didn't even think of it before hand.. what kind of message it was portraying.. by looking at it now through my daughters eyes, I see it clear as day.
There is a prime example of a role model, even though muich younger than the person she inspired.
We are all role models. Denying that is just abandoning moral responsibility.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I haven't read the all the post in the thread. My thought isn't so focused on the impact of violent entertainment on those who consume it. I don't think it has an impact in determining whether someone becomes violent or not.
What fascinates me more is the demand in society for these violent products. Why do people think it's fun, or cool, or exciting to play violent games? In my mind, we are asking the wrong questions. Why do some people feel it's cool to play evil, or to do evil things in games? Why do they revel in virtual criminality?
Why is goodness not an aspiration for these players?
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I haven't read the all the post in the thread. My thought isn't so focused on the impact of violent entertainment on those who consume it. I don't think it has an impact in determining whether someone becomes violent or not.
What fascinates me more is the demand in society for these violent products. Why do people think it's fun, or cool, or exciting to play violent games? In my mind, we are asking the wrong questions. Why do some people feel it's cool to play evil, or to do evil things in games? Why do they revel in virtual criminality? Why is goodness not an aspiration for these players?
It is because evil is more in line with the exercise of power, and feeling powerful kills fear. It makes us feel safe to hurt others.
We really aren't that far removed from monkeys screeching at each other in tree tops.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past.
Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise.
However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off.
I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past. Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise. However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off. I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
I haven't read the all the post in the thread. My thought isn't so focused on the impact of violent entertainment on those who consume it. I don't think it has an impact in determining whether someone becomes violent or not.
What fascinates me more is the demand in society for these violent products. Why do people think it's fun, or cool, or exciting to play violent games? In my mind, we are asking the wrong questions. Why do some people feel it's cool to play evil, or to do evil things in games? Why do they revel in virtual criminality? Why is goodness not an aspiration for these players?
Interesting question. But who gets to define "goodness"? Those with the power to make the definition stick? Violence is simply one aspect of power. Two others are wealth and knowledge. In all too many cases evil/good are defined by those with the power to be able to make such definitions. Look at "freedom fighter" and "insurgent" as just one of many examples. I suspect most people find that its "cooler" to have that type of power. The tragic part is the lack of examination of the consequences for all parties involved.
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past. Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise. However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off. I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past. Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise. However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off. I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
I'm familiar with that quest(having two 80's and a 75), and I can see your perspective. That having been said, *no one* has a "right" not to be offended. WAY too many people believe that they are some how entitled to go through life un offended. From Blizzards perspective, its bad enough having to deal with all of the quirks(I'm being charitable...) of the various nation state governments involved... On top of that they are supposed to keep things bland enough so as not to "offend" millions upon millions of people in different cultures spread around the entire world? Your main recourse in issues like this if you are offended enough, is to take your business elsewhere.
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past. Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise. However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off. I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
LOL....Fox. Well, actually, to a lot of us over here in the States...that ALONE explains a lot. But we don't want to go down that road in this thread, because then it will become a political argument. Suffice it to say....ANYTHING stupid coming from Fox Network, doesn't surprise me, and probably wouldn't surprise most of us. Fox is about the LAST bunch that has ANY footing to accuse anyone ELSE of being "backwards."
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past. Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise. However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off. I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
LOL....Fox. Well, actually, to a lot of us over here in the States...that ALONE explains a lot. But we don't want to go down that road in this thread, because then it will become a political argument. Suffice it to say....ANYTHING stupid coming from Fox Network, doesn't surprise me, and probably wouldn't surprise most of us. Fox is about the LAST bunch that has ANY footing to accuse anyone ELSE of being "backwards."
Very true. Just don't leave the Clinton "News" Network(CNN) out of the same statement. ^^ Both of them have a VERY dim grasp (at best) of the difference between news and propaganda. Both pander to the types of ideologies(and problems) that tie in to this thread.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Wraithone[/i] [quote] [/quote] I'm familiar with that quest(having two 80's and a 75), and I can see your perspective. That having been said, *no one* has a "right" not to be offended. WAY too many people believe that they are some how entitled to go through life un offended. From Blizzards perspective, its bad enough having to deal with all of the quirks(I'm being charitable...) of the various nation state governments involved... On top of that they are supposed to keep things bland enough so as not to "offend" millions upon millions of people in different cultures spread around the entire world? Your main recourse in issues like this if you are offended enough, is to take your business elsewhere. [/quote]
The problem is they do cater to some people but not others, either you decide "screw it, our creative freedom allows us to write what we want" or you don't.
The issue of stolen children isn't just an Australian one, a lot of former colonial nations have similar stories in the past of "savages" being taken "for their own good", but rather then deal with something like that they'd rather cave in over the name of a cat.
As for the right not to be offended, if ignorance of another culture doesn't work as an excuse for one group (i.e the Jackson Jive crap that they slung at Australia) then it shouldn't work for blizzard either.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Wraithone[/i] [quote] [/quote] I'm familiar with that quest(having two 80's and a 75), and I can see your perspective. That having been said, *no one* has a "right" not to be offended. WAY too many people believe that they are some how entitled to go through life un offended. From Blizzards perspective, its bad enough having to deal with all of the quirks(I'm being charitable...) of the various nation state governments involved... On top of that they are supposed to keep things bland enough so as not to "offend" millions upon millions of people in different cultures spread around the entire world? Your main recourse in issues like this if you are offended enough, is to take your business elsewhere. [/quote] The problem is they do cater to some people but not others, either you decide "screw it, our creative freedom allows us to write what we want" or you don't. The issue of stolen children isn't just an Australian one, a lot of former colonial nations have similar stories in the past of "savages" being taken "for their own good", but rather then deal with something like that they'd rather cave in over the name of a cat. As for the right not to be offended, if ignorance of another culture doesn't work as an excuse for one group (i.e the Jackson Jive crap that they slung at Australia) then it shouldn't work for blizzard either.
Yes, as I said I'm familiar with your perspective on this. That having been said, there are almost *endless* numbers of such hot buttons spread through out the world. Of course they are selective, thats human nature. If one of the Official Victim classes starts howling like a banshee, of course Blizzard is going to do the Politically Correct thing. But PC is part of the entire idea I've spoken of.
As for your last, ignorance isn't my point. Even if one knew *all* of the nearly endless hot button points for every culture in the world, that still doesn't translate to a "right" for *anyone*(including the Official Victim classes) to not be offended. Taking "offense" at something is entirely up to the individual in question. If one is that offended, the main recourse is to take ones business elsewhere.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolfOriginally posted by Angelof2070
This is sad... Growing up with violent movies/games, I'm not one to say much about most things...
But the "it's just a game" mantra is getting a little ridiculous. It's not just a game. It is well-known in social sciences that people who become desensitized to violence become more aggressive. While this won't spark something as ridiculous as what Modern Warfare shows (virtual Genocide) it is certainly not healthy for society and is quite barbaric. It's one thing when the horde of enemies are murderous thugs or "evil goblins" or an honorable war. But to kill defenseless civilians who scream and cry out for mercy? It's just taking it too far.
What's next? A virtual torture game where you win the level once you get the information out of your victim? Enough is enough. Corporate greed needs to back off and take their hands off their wallets for a second and consider something most of us like to call: Dignity. Because the only reason they did this is because it sells.
I look down on Shameless Corporate Greed. If you're gonna be greedy... at least have a little respect for yourself and the society you pollute.
First of all, wrong. There were a few flawed studies that showed a connection between watching violence and being more violent as a child (no studies showed the correlation in adults, or bothered to restudy the children once they were adults). But many more studies showed that there was NOT a direct correlation between video game violence and real world aggression/violence. So nice try on that one.
We can't spend life sheltering people for how horrific parts of life are, that is what truly desensitizes people.
I am not wrong. I am a real Psychologist who follows scholarly journals based on real science. You on the other hand I guarantee get all your news of such studies from DATELINE episodes of "Do video games cause violence? The Columbine Massacre."
Epic fail. Saying "First of all, wrong!" doesn't make the facts go away. In fact, it just shows everyone else that you truly don't know what you're talking about.
Second, not allowing mass-murder and horrific violence in video games isn't sheltering people. It's in fact the exact opposite- purposefully feeding them aggression, violence, and what all people would be considered "evil". The middle ground would be to not purposefully shelter them from it, but not purposefully feed it to them either.
Also, sheltering people from horror in NO WAY desensitizes people to it. In fact, sheltered people will find it SIGNIFICANTLY more "horrific" than someone who wasn't sheltered. Sheltering others will make them MORE sensitive to things (often considered overly-sensitive) which is the opposite of desensitizing them.
Couch Potato Psychology FTL.
Please leave it to the experts who actually study these fields with real scientific studies... not internet rumors, DATELINE commercials, and common ignorance.
I won't argue anymore than this post though. What are your credentials in psychology or sociology? None?
I actually have a degree in it, and real evidence not random assumptions. Seriously... since when does sheltering people DESENSITIZE them? LoL.../
"Psychology" in itself is a non-scientifically provable concept. So you could be the new Sigmund Freud ( wow, THERE was a real winner, a.k.a. nutjob ), and your supposedly credentialed opinion is still worth no more than the opinion of the person you are attempting to discredit.
Hell, psychologist all think an hour only has 50 minutes in it.
By the way, do you consider "epic fail" to be acceptable scientific jargon?
Edit: And unless your going to post your degree here with proof of its' belonging to you, stop trying to whip people with your e-peen, Dr. Spock.
"I wonder if the MMORPG market will ever mature to a point that someone in one points out that, thanks to the players’ actions, they’re surrounded by hundreds of corpses, instead of just happily ignoring the carnage."
In the days when Windows 2.0 was the newest thing on the block, Chris Crawford wrote Balance of Power, a global political simulator. This was in the final years of the Cold War, and nuclear arms escalation was still a current and constant threat in the international jockeying between the US and USSR.
If you screwed the pooch in Balance of Power and your actions led to nuclear war, the game ended with a black screen and a chastizing statement to the effect of "You have started a nuclear war. We are not going to show you pictures of mushroom clouds. There is no reward for failure."
While that statement is paraphrased from memory, the last sentence is a direct quote. It sticks in my mind after all these years. "There is no reward for failure."
It is the only time I've seen seen a game take a stark moral position about carnage, even hard-coding it into the events/reward side of the game itself. So this sort of thing has happened - but as far as I can recall, really only in this one instance.
Sorry to be spoilsport and play the moralist here: but there is NO MORAL JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER to support a game like this which support the shooting of innocents. NO SINGLE ONE. End of story. If you support companies to put you into such a position and dont give you a chance to prevent the shooting you educate people to accept such things.
There are many issues where morality is something in many shades of grey and not black-white. THIS IS NOT ONE. Who buys this game knowing it and who participated creating it IS evil. Period.
The Elikal has spoken.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
First of all, wrong. There were a few flawed studies that showed a connection between watching violence and being more violent as a child (no studies showed the correlation in adults, or bothered to restudy the children once they were adults). But many more studies showed that there was NOT a direct correlation between video game violence and real world aggression/violence. So nice try on that one.
We can't spend life sheltering people for how horrific parts of life are, that is what truly desensitizes people.
I am not wrong. I am a real Psychologist who follows scholarly journals based on real science. You on the other hand I guarantee get all your news of such studies from DATELINE episodes of "Do video games cause violence? The Columbine Massacre."
Epic fail. Saying "First of all, wrong!" doesn't make the facts go away. In fact, it just shows everyone else that you truly don't know what you're talking about.
Second, not allowing mass-murder and horrific violence in video games isn't sheltering people. It's in fact the exact opposite- purposefully feeding them aggression, violence, and what all people would be considered "evil". The middle ground would be to not purposefully shelter them from it, but not purposefully feed it to them either.
Also, sheltering people from horror in NO WAY desensitizes people to it. In fact, sheltered people will find it SIGNIFICANTLY more "horrific" than someone who wasn't sheltered. Sheltering others will make them MORE sensitive to things (often considered overly-sensitive) which is the opposite of desensitizing them.
Couch Potato Psychology FTL.
Please leave it to the experts who actually study these fields with real scientific studies... not internet rumors, DATELINE commercials, and common ignorance.
I won't argue anymore than this post though. What are your credentials in psychology or sociology? None?
I actually have a degree in it, and real evidence not random assumptions. Seriously... since when does sheltering people DESENSITIZE them? LoL.../
How can video games cause violence? Seriously it makes no sense. Violence has been around since the dawn of man not the dawn of video games.
Let me ask you one question. Since you seem to think you are smart or something.
If one million people play the same video game and one person goes out and shoots up a school. Can you explain to me how it was the video game that cause this to happen? Since only 1 out of 1 million did the shooting?
It makes no sense. Video games, music, movies cannot cause people to be violent only violent people can cause violence.
Video games(books, etc) do not *cause* violence, in and of themselves. But they can influence peoples internal mental processes(for good or ill). What choices people make determine if their actions are good or evil. Saying something like "its only a game" is much akin to saying that the bible is "only a book". Both are true, after a fashion. But neither takes in to account the impact they can have on people. Once again, I do NOT want such games banned. But people *are* responsible for their actions/in actions.
Yes "PEOPLE" are responsible for their actions not video games, not movies, not music. PEOPLE.
It is only a game and the Bible is only a book. Those are facts. People choose how to react to those things. They cannot influence people unless they want to be influence by them. A person is going to comit violence if that is what they want to do, they will blame (along with the media) whatever they want to blame. People do not take responsiblity for their actions anymore.
The problem I have with people like yourself is that you believe that games, movies, books, ect can influence people to do bad things, that simply is not true, bad people do bad things. Period. No outside influence is needed.
Violence has been around as long as humans. Humans are violent by nature. That is just how it is, we as humans forget that we are nothing more then animals. We want to believe we are more then just animals but we are not.
Which part of people *are* responsible for their actions/in actions didn't you understand?? It doesn't matter what influenced them, they are still responsible for their own actions. Correlation is not causality. Games are games. Books are books. People are responsible for their own actions(again). But attempting to claim that games, books, etc have no influence on people is foolish. But influence does not force choices. Those *choices* are still made by the people involved. Given that humans are the dominant *predator* species on the planet, I'd say that inherent violence is a given. But its the choices people make that determine the nature of their actions.
An interesting article.. and certainly something that deserves a good debate.
I think there is a difference between PvE and PvP morality.. as in.. how you 'treat' computer generated 'enemies' versus how you treat other flesh & blood players. If your pretending to be the bad guy, its your job to do things that are 'bad' or order to create the illusion.. otherwise the story is irrelevant.
Still... I believe there is a limit to this, or at least.. some morality that needs to be exerted by the game developers to ensure that the game is not simply about being a mass murderer. I think I have to be a lot more dilligent in what games I allow my kids to play.. particularly when not supervised.
George Lucas stated it pretty well in an interview... I don't have it verbatum, but the gist of it was:
'Most bad guys justify doing bad things for their own perception of the greater good. They don't see themselves as evil, but rather are willing to bend or break what is perceived as good or bad for their own advancement."
I think MMO's do 'miss the boat' on this quite often... and in ways that seem uncessary. Some games allow 'mining' for credits... while also allowing 'privateering' off those very same players as a more lucrative and.. to a large degree.. more exciting game choice. There are few ways to be a 'good guy' and still fire a blaster or weild a sword. Protecting others is not generally done very well.. particularly in PvP based missions.
I think Star Wars The Old Replubic intends on creating more 'moral' or 'decision based' consequences to games in their theme-park storylines. They seem to have the gigantic budget necessary to pull it off (with voice over).
There are few games that reward being a good guy and not simply killing everything in sight. City of Heroes seems to pretty well at it in theme.. good guys stopping bad guys.. but then there is also City of Villians produced to cater to the 'bad guy' crowd as well.
However, for the smaller MMO's.. the 'moral' community tends to be between players.. all NPCs actions being more a matter of whats more 'efficient' than any sort of moral choice.
What this means to me.. as a father.. is that some games my kids simply will not get to play till they are adults and have a firm foundation in what is 'right or wrong' behavior.. even if its 'virtual' behavior.
I remember when I was showing my 10 year old daughter the SWTOR 'Deceived' game trailer. She was upset.. why.. because the 'good guy lost'. Her moral compass at age 10 is better that a lot of adults three or four times her age. I didn't even think of it before hand.. what kind of message it was portraying.. by looking at it now through my daughters eyes, I see it clear as day.
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
There is a prime example of a role model, even though muich younger than the person she inspired.
We are all role models. Denying that is just abandoning moral responsibility.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I haven't read the all the post in the thread. My thought isn't so focused on the impact of violent entertainment on those who consume it. I don't think it has an impact in determining whether someone becomes violent or not.
What fascinates me more is the demand in society for these violent products. Why do people think it's fun, or cool, or exciting to play violent games? In my mind, we are asking the wrong questions. Why do some people feel it's cool to play evil, or to do evil things in games? Why do they revel in virtual criminality?
Why is goodness not an aspiration for these players?
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
It is because evil is more in line with the exercise of power, and feeling powerful kills fear. It makes us feel safe to hurt others.
We really aren't that far removed from monkeys screeching at each other in tree tops.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well for one thing you said "Yet one thing that MMORPGs have shied away from is intentional controversy" yet they've blundered into it hard in the past.
Take for example Australia, recently we got a lot of crap thrown at us over a comedy (The Jackson Jive) that only really offended Americans, Australians had no clue what you guys were offended about, it wasn't something we did back in the day to be racist dicks, to the extent we had to bend over backwards and apologise.
However in the past I've been really really offended by a Quest in WoW to the degree I emailed blizzard about it. It's the quest about "saving" (read stealing) baby wolvars from their parents to "protect" them, to an Australian, especially one of aboriginal decent whose grandmother is part of the stolen generation this is incredibly offensive, and when I got back a pat email that didn't address it other then "we'll look into it" I was even more pissed off.
I think that the people who make MMORPGs need to consider that there are things out there offensive in their games, not just ones that offend Americans
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Interesting question. But who gets to define "goodness"? Those with the power to make the definition stick? Violence is simply one aspect of power. Two others are wealth and knowledge. In all too many cases evil/good are defined by those with the power to be able to make such definitions. Look at "freedom fighter" and "insurgent" as just one of many examples. I suspect most people find that its "cooler" to have that type of power. The tragic part is the lack of examination of the consequences for all parties involved.
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
I'm familiar with that quest(having two 80's and a 75), and I can see your perspective. That having been said, *no one* has a "right" not to be offended. WAY too many people believe that they are some how entitled to go through life un offended. From Blizzards perspective, its bad enough having to deal with all of the quirks(I'm being charitable...) of the various nation state governments involved... On top of that they are supposed to keep things bland enough so as not to "offend" millions upon millions of people in different cultures spread around the entire world? Your main recourse in issues like this if you are offended enough, is to take your business elsewhere.
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
LOL....Fox. Well, actually, to a lot of us over here in the States...that ALONE explains a lot. But we don't want to go down that road in this thread, because then it will become a political argument. Suffice it to say....ANYTHING stupid coming from Fox Network, doesn't surprise me, and probably wouldn't surprise most of us. Fox is about the LAST bunch that has ANY footing to accuse anyone ELSE of being "backwards."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
You know...I completely understand your thinking here. But I'm not sure that it's the developers being callous, when something is brought to their attention, but more the simple fact that Americans, SADLY.....and I am NOT proud of our reputation for this....we just SCREAM the loudest.
Have you heard the old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil" ? Well....the U.S.A. is one SQUEAKY damn place. I don't know if it's just an arrogant sense of entitlement, or a brazen selfishness (maybe both). And this isn't true of ALL U.S. citizens, any more than it's true to generalize all citizens of any other country. But we do have a tendency to piss and moan here....a LOT. I think the "freedom of speech" that we have.....can be a curse as well as a blessing.
I am sorry that you were offended by that quest. It makes me kind of ashamed that Blizzard didn't seem to care. I can see why that would be offensive and it's probably likely that Blizzard was so busy fending off other complaints about purely idiotic stuff....that somehow your issue fell through the cracks. At least I'd like to THINK that they didn't just ignore it......
I can tell you what the posts following yours will probably say though....."Hey, there's something that offends someone in probably every game....deal with it." Because....well....you know how kind-hearted and empathetic a place these forums are....HA.
Well personally I didn't mind that people found the Jackson Jive skit offensive, I found the whole thing that followed to be insulting. If people had found it offensive and said "hey that's horrible" most Australians would of been "oh sorry, we didn't know this would piss you off, sorry", however it was more like "this is indicative of how backwards Australia is" and "how inherently racist it is as a nation" that's what we got, I think might be a direct quote from one of the American TV networks too, Fox I think, I saw it on Youtube.
When I saw the WoW quest, I didn't think Blizzard was doing it to be racist, or offensive, or even edgy like some companies do, no, what I considered truly offensive was them blowing me off like it didn't matter, yet when they had that vanity pet named a "coon" I think it was they copped so much flak they renamed it. It was an American issue so like you said, the squeakiest wheel got the oil, yet issues that are just as offensive to people which are brought up in mature thoughtful ways like a private email rather then public rallies are dismissed.
I'm okay with people making mistakes and stuffing up, but you've got to own up to them, otherwise it compounds the issue.
LOL....Fox. Well, actually, to a lot of us over here in the States...that ALONE explains a lot. But we don't want to go down that road in this thread, because then it will become a political argument. Suffice it to say....ANYTHING stupid coming from Fox Network, doesn't surprise me, and probably wouldn't surprise most of us. Fox is about the LAST bunch that has ANY footing to accuse anyone ELSE of being "backwards."
Very true. Just don't leave the Clinton "News" Network(CNN) out of the same statement. ^^ Both of them have a VERY dim grasp (at best) of the difference between news and propaganda. Both pander to the types of ideologies(and problems) that tie in to this thread.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Wraithone[/i] [quote] [/quote] I'm familiar with that quest(having two 80's and a 75), and I can see your perspective. That having been said, *no one* has a "right" not to be offended. WAY too many people believe that they are some how entitled to go through life un offended. From Blizzards perspective, its bad enough having to deal with all of the quirks(I'm being charitable...) of the various nation state governments involved... On top of that they are supposed to keep things bland enough so as not to "offend" millions upon millions of people in different cultures spread around the entire world? Your main recourse in issues like this if you are offended enough, is to take your business elsewhere. [/quote]
The problem is they do cater to some people but not others, either you decide "screw it, our creative freedom allows us to write what we want" or you don't.
The issue of stolen children isn't just an Australian one, a lot of former colonial nations have similar stories in the past of "savages" being taken "for their own good", but rather then deal with something like that they'd rather cave in over the name of a cat.
As for the right not to be offended, if ignorance of another culture doesn't work as an excuse for one group (i.e the Jackson Jive crap that they slung at Australia) then it shouldn't work for blizzard either.
Yes, as I said I'm familiar with your perspective on this. That having been said, there are almost *endless* numbers of such hot buttons spread through out the world. Of course they are selective, thats human nature. If one of the Official Victim classes starts howling like a banshee, of course Blizzard is going to do the Politically Correct thing. But PC is part of the entire idea I've spoken of.
As for your last, ignorance isn't my point. Even if one knew *all* of the nearly endless hot button points for every culture in the world, that still doesn't translate to a "right" for *anyone*(including the Official Victim classes) to not be offended. Taking "offense" at something is entirely up to the individual in question. If one is that offended, the main recourse is to take ones business elsewhere.
First of all, wrong. There were a few flawed studies that showed a connection between watching violence and being more violent as a child (no studies showed the correlation in adults, or bothered to restudy the children once they were adults). But many more studies showed that there was NOT a direct correlation between video game violence and real world aggression/violence. So nice try on that one.
We can't spend life sheltering people for how horrific parts of life are, that is what truly desensitizes people.
I am not wrong. I am a real Psychologist who follows scholarly journals based on real science. You on the other hand I guarantee get all your news of such studies from DATELINE episodes of "Do video games cause violence? The Columbine Massacre."
Epic fail. Saying "First of all, wrong!" doesn't make the facts go away. In fact, it just shows everyone else that you truly don't know what you're talking about.
Second, not allowing mass-murder and horrific violence in video games isn't sheltering people. It's in fact the exact opposite- purposefully feeding them aggression, violence, and what all people would be considered "evil". The middle ground would be to not purposefully shelter them from it, but not purposefully feed it to them either.
Also, sheltering people from horror in NO WAY desensitizes people to it. In fact, sheltered people will find it SIGNIFICANTLY more "horrific" than someone who wasn't sheltered. Sheltering others will make them MORE sensitive to things (often considered overly-sensitive) which is the opposite of desensitizing them.
Couch Potato Psychology FTL.
Please leave it to the experts who actually study these fields with real scientific studies... not internet rumors, DATELINE commercials, and common ignorance.
I won't argue anymore than this post though. What are your credentials in psychology or sociology? None?
I actually have a degree in it, and real evidence not random assumptions. Seriously... since when does sheltering people DESENSITIZE them? LoL.../
"Psychology" in itself is a non-scientifically provable concept. So you could be the new Sigmund Freud ( wow, THERE was a real winner, a.k.a. nutjob ), and your supposedly credentialed opinion is still worth no more than the opinion of the person you are attempting to discredit.
Hell, psychologist all think an hour only has 50 minutes in it.
By the way, do you consider "epic fail" to be acceptable scientific jargon?
Edit: And unless your going to post your degree here with proof of its' belonging to you, stop trying to whip people with your e-peen, Dr. Spock.
"I wonder if the MMORPG market will ever mature to a point that someone in one points out that, thanks to the players’ actions, they’re surrounded by hundreds of corpses, instead of just happily ignoring the carnage."
In the days when Windows 2.0 was the newest thing on the block, Chris Crawford wrote Balance of Power, a global political simulator. This was in the final years of the Cold War, and nuclear arms escalation was still a current and constant threat in the international jockeying between the US and USSR.
If you screwed the pooch in Balance of Power and your actions led to nuclear war, the game ended with a black screen and a chastizing statement to the effect of "You have started a nuclear war. We are not going to show you pictures of mushroom clouds. There is no reward for failure."
While that statement is paraphrased from memory, the last sentence is a direct quote. It sticks in my mind after all these years. "There is no reward for failure."
It is the only time I've seen seen a game take a stark moral position about carnage, even hard-coding it into the events/reward side of the game itself. So this sort of thing has happened - but as far as I can recall, really only in this one instance.
Remarkable.
Sorry to be spoilsport and play the moralist here: but there is NO MORAL JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER to support a game like this which support the shooting of innocents. NO SINGLE ONE. End of story. If you support companies to put you into such a position and dont give you a chance to prevent the shooting you educate people to accept such things.
There are many issues where morality is something in many shades of grey and not black-white. THIS IS NOT ONE. Who buys this game knowing it and who participated creating it IS evil. Period.
The Elikal has spoken.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert