Yes. I read through this thread after I made my post and realized there is no discussion going on here, only posturing and yelling. It's a shame people seem to be incapable of having intelligent discussions about game design outside of very specific places and scenarios.
welcome to mmorpg.com
Indeed.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Didn't old Tassos promise that every one would have a chance to try before they buy? However long it is after launch there is still not one doesn't fill me with confidence things have changed. On my experience of 'beta' there would have to be massive improvements and a free trial to see them before I would concider playing.
I am one of the few that liked the game from the first day I played and still like the game more than 6 months later. My first second impression with the game was “wow this is an online version of Morrowind with RTS features thrown in, nicely done.” I still feel the same way. Granted anything you really like you will be called a fanboi so.... just like I am a fanboi of sex, I am a fanboi of DF
like you, i played DF since beta and i love this game more and more !
Didn't old Tassos promise that every one would have a chance to try before they buy? However long it is after launch there is still not one doesn't fill me with confidence things have changed. On my experience of 'beta' there would have to be massive improvements and a free trial to see them before I would concider playing.
There have been massive improvements but no immediate plans for a mass trial. So you can listen to some of the player testimonials and watch some youtube videos to educate yourself on if you will like this game. Otherwise you are SOL.
You should read the article instead of jumping to a ridiculous conclusion after misunderstanding the first sentence. "From my experiences with [these games that share common advancement systems], I have noticed..." is not saying "because I've played [these games], this is bad." I've spent time playing games that use the system and I've given them serious thought before coming up with my analysis. How am I supposed to judge how character advancement systems work without playing games that use them? Certainly arguing based on experience and analysis of that experience in a field as young as game design can lead to valid analysis and worthwhile reading. I did a better job laying out the argument in the second post, as well. The first one was a bit rash and unnecessarily broad. The second post nails down particularly where I think the problems are and shows that a different use-based system can mitigate most of the problems.
Take it easy, that was just my vain attempt at being funny.
Now, I'm going to read the articles in an attempt to look less like an ass, and come up with a better comment.
Ok, I have now read both blog posts.
First of all, the reason I attacked the argument was because I incorrectly assumed that it was an attack against all skill based systems in favor of traditional leveling systems.
As a matter of fact as a DM in a DnD group I have slowly been trying to implement a skill based advancement system that sounds a lot more like Ryzom's system than Darkfall's (even though I've never actually played Ryzom). The truth of the matter is that I agree that this approach is superior in a controlled environment such as a pen and paper rpg in which every advancement is judged on an individual basis. Also, I would assume that it's much easier to implement in a pve mmo with a stricter ruleset and more limited tactics. Furthermore it is a system much harder to implement correctly in order to achieve a balanced result compared against Darkfall's more direct approach.
Now with that being said, I find it hard to imagine how such a system could successfully be implemented in a PVP game like Darkfall which also possesses (what I consider to be) advanced AI and a much greater number of viable tactics that is not limited to just the sequence of spells/skills being used. More specifically, I wouldn't want to be in the position of the Dev setting up a system which would award balanced skill increase rewards in a situation with so many different possibilities due to the number of variables involved in the calculation.
Short Version: I agree that Ryzom's approach can be superior but I don't think you could make it work in Darkfall.
Well, that's my response, I'm sorry for degrading your post which happens to be very interesting and I hope you are still around to actually read my opinion.
If not I'll post it as a comment on your blog.
//Edit: I think I can condense my "why it wouldn't work in Darkfall" to this:
In a two-dimensional game where combat is direct, hit and miss are calculated by random chance and the threat of an enemy can easily be calculated,
it's much easier to award skill points based on challenge rather than a system in which,
-the fight takes place in a 3 dimensional field
-where there is collision detection
-the environment such as the difference in height or rocks and trees can be used to ones advantage
-aim and dodging are not based or change but on individual skill (and ping )
-other allies and their skills may be used creatively to give somebody advantage.
and I'm only talking about PVE, awarding skills based on difficulty in PVP is a whole different can of worms.
You should read the article instead of jumping to a ridiculous conclusion after misunderstanding the first sentence. "From my experiences with [these games that share common advancement systems], I have noticed..." is not saying "because I've played [these games], this is bad." I've spent time playing games that use the system and I've given them serious thought before coming up with my analysis. How am I supposed to judge how character advancement systems work without playing games that use them? Certainly arguing based on experience and analysis of that experience in a field as young as game design can lead to valid analysis and worthwhile reading. I did a better job laying out the argument in the second post, as well. The first one was a bit rash and unnecessarily broad. The second post nails down particularly where I think the problems are and shows that a different use-based system can mitigate most of the problems.
"Exploation" in Ryzom goes like these :
Team up with a party that kills mob for max xp and hit mob just one time and gain 3000(max) xp.
Isn't that "superior" use-skill gain ?
Use the stanza's for you mastered 'lake gathering' to gain up to 5 mats more then someone who has same level then you in the 'forest gathering' skill ?
Isnt' t that "superior" exploation of use-skill gain in Ryzom ?
In the end both skill system have too many similarities to be that different. Watch and include Darkfall passive skills !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Didn't old Tassos promise that every one would have a chance to try before they buy? However long it is after launch there is still not one doesn't fill me with confidence things have changed. On my experience of 'beta' there would have to be massive improvements and a free trial to see them before I would concider playing.
In 2006 they said it was their intention to let people try before buying, but then he turned it around saying it wasn't possible a few months later, something like that.
Didn't old Tassos promise that every one would have a chance to try before they buy? However long it is after launch there is still not one doesn't fill me with confidence things have changed. On my experience of 'beta' there would have to be massive improvements and a free trial to see them before I would concider playing.
In 2006 they said it was their intention to let people try before buying, but then he turned it around saying it wasn't possible a few months later, something like that.
There are two things here really
1. some stating "I am going to be at the ball game at 11pm" is not a promise.
2. has there ever in the history of gaming been a game released on schedule with everything mentioned in the pre-game release notes?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
i like the game when i played it but combat isnt fluid enough in my opinion. yes it does take skill and yes the amount you train your skills counts for alot.
but the movement speed and stuff makes it not fun. besides that i really think its the closer thing to the best game ever been made. if only they would of used unreal engine.
I wish they had made it multi-core as well.
Having said that at the time it came out I was not aware of any other MMO that even came close to having as good of a combat engine as this game. Granted I havent played all of them but I am not aware of any MMO that is not pretty much just a point and click
This might have changed in the past 4 months however
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
i like the game when i played it but combat isnt fluid enough in my opinion. yes it does take skill and yes the amount you train your skills counts for alot.
but the movement speed and stuff makes it not fun. besides that i really think its the closer thing to the best game ever been made. if only they would of used unreal engine.
Isn't that the same engine that MO is using which lags out whenever there is more than 10 people together?
You should read the article instead of jumping to a ridiculous conclusion after misunderstanding the first sentence. "From my experiences with [these games that share common advancement systems], I have noticed..." is not saying "because I've played [these games], this is bad." I've spent time playing games that use the system and I've given them serious thought before coming up with my analysis. How am I supposed to judge how character advancement systems work without playing games that use them? Certainly arguing based on experience and analysis of that experience in a field as young as game design can lead to valid analysis and worthwhile reading. I did a better job laying out the argument in the second post, as well. The first one was a bit rash and unnecessarily broad. The second post nails down particularly where I think the problems are and shows that a different use-based system can mitigate most of the problems.
Take it easy, that was just my vain attempt at being funny.
Now, I'm going to read the articles in an attempt to look less like an ass, and come up with a better comment.
Ok, I have now read both blog posts.
First of all, the reason I attacked the argument was because I incorrectly assumed that it was an attack against all skill based systems in favor of traditional leveling systems.
As a matter of fact as a DM in a DnD group I have slowly been trying to implement a skill based advancement system that sounds a lot more like Ryzom's system than Darkfall's (even though I've never actually played Ryzom). The truth of the matter is that I agree that this approach is superior in a controlled environment such as a pen and paper rpg in which every advancement is judged on an individual basis. Also, I would assume that it's much easier to implement in a pve mmo with a stricter ruleset and more limited tactics. Furthermore it is a system much harder to implement correctly in order to achieve a balanced result compared against Darkfall's more direct approach.
Now with that being said, I find it hard to imagine how such a system could successfully be implemented in a PVP game like Darkfall which also possesses (what I consider to be) advanced AI and a much greater number of viable tactics that is not limited to just the sequence of spells/skills being used. More specifically, I wouldn't want to be in the position of the Dev setting up a system which would award balanced skill increase rewards in a situation with so many different possibilities due to the number of variables involved in the calculation.
Short Version: I agree that Ryzom's approach can be superior but I don't think you could make it work in Darkfall.
Well, that's my response, I'm sorry for degrading your post which happens to be very interesting and I hope you are still around to actually read my opinion.
If not I'll post it as a comment on your blog.
Thanks for taking the time to write out a real response. I reacted to you so harshly at first because I assumed you were an average poster here who couldn't comprehend a sentence with more than one clause. I apologize.
You've got some great stuff to say here. I agree with it. I tended to take the higher road of trying to analyze the issues in an abstract sense instead of just pointing to the unique situation arising from 3D MMOs... but your analysis is certainly valid and appreciated.
Originally posted by evizaer Thanks for taking the time to write out a real response. I reacted to you so harshly at first because I assumed you were an average poster here who couldn't comprehend a sentence with more than one clause. I apologize. You've got some great stuff to say here. I agree with it. I tended to take the higher road of trying to analyze the issues in an abstract sense instead of just pointing to the unique situation arising from 3D MMOs... but your analysis is certainly valid and appreciated.
Well thanks.
It's always interesting, finding a fellow seeker on the endless quest for the RPG system that has the best combination of elements such as flexible, applicable, realistic and most of all fun.
I just started playing Darkfall this week, needed to scratch my MMO itch and the free trials and re-ups from other games was not doing it for me. I'm not a big PvP fan but I did very much enjoy DAoC's RvR style, which I never thought I would. So far in DF I've only had a couple of minor PvP situations and pretty much been able to PvE in peace (seems if you go a little off the beaten path few will bother you... so far).
I also like to explore and I'm impressed with the landscape and architecture of the place. I thought the Mirdain starter town I began in was pretty large and impressive then found my way to the capital and was blown away, it's quite stunning. While the graphics engine is a bit rough (I think AoC is similar in many ways) the world designers and architects have done a fantastic job from the little I have seen do far. One thing though is NPC's seem to be few and far between, the towns/cities are deserted except for four or five vendor/quest characters (I think AV are intending to add more in a future expansion/patch). Out in the wild is little better.
I also find the AI interesting and very similar to how a player (at least of limited skill like myself) would play. It's quite unlike other MMO's I have played. The agro radius is huge and it can be very difficult to take only one at a time. This is all good though as I've never liked the way in most games you can take on one NPC and have another only a few metres away remain completely oblivious (bring back the trains from old EQ!)
I have a habit of not sticking with games for long and I may not with DF but I definitely think it's worth a try if you are at all interested. I've been pleasantly surprised so far.
Comments
welcome to mmorpg.com
Indeed.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Didn't old Tassos promise that every one would have a chance to try before they buy? However long it is after launch there is still not one doesn't fill me with confidence things have changed. On my experience of 'beta' there would have to be massive improvements and a free trial to see them before I would concider playing.
like you, i played DF since beta and i love this game more and more !
There have been massive improvements but no immediate plans for a mass trial. So you can listen to some of the player testimonials and watch some youtube videos to educate yourself on if you will like this game. Otherwise you are SOL.
Take it easy, that was just my vain attempt at being funny.
Now, I'm going to read the articles in an attempt to look less like an ass, and come up with a better comment.
Ok, I have now read both blog posts.
First of all, the reason I attacked the argument was because I incorrectly assumed that it was an attack against all skill based systems in favor of traditional leveling systems.
As a matter of fact as a DM in a DnD group I have slowly been trying to implement a skill based advancement system that sounds a lot more like Ryzom's system than Darkfall's (even though I've never actually played Ryzom). The truth of the matter is that I agree that this approach is superior in a controlled environment such as a pen and paper rpg in which every advancement is judged on an individual basis. Also, I would assume that it's much easier to implement in a pve mmo with a stricter ruleset and more limited tactics. Furthermore it is a system much harder to implement correctly in order to achieve a balanced result compared against Darkfall's more direct approach.
Now with that being said, I find it hard to imagine how such a system could successfully be implemented in a PVP game like Darkfall which also possesses (what I consider to be) advanced AI and a much greater number of viable tactics that is not limited to just the sequence of spells/skills being used. More specifically, I wouldn't want to be in the position of the Dev setting up a system which would award balanced skill increase rewards in a situation with so many different possibilities due to the number of variables involved in the calculation.
Short Version: I agree that Ryzom's approach can be superior but I don't think you could make it work in Darkfall.
Well, that's my response, I'm sorry for degrading your post which happens to be very interesting and I hope you are still around to actually read my opinion.
If not I'll post it as a comment on your blog.
//Edit: I think I can condense my "why it wouldn't work in Darkfall" to this:
In a two-dimensional game where combat is direct, hit and miss are calculated by random chance and the threat of an enemy can easily be calculated,
it's much easier to award skill points based on challenge rather than a system in which,
-the fight takes place in a 3 dimensional field
-where there is collision detection
-the environment such as the difference in height or rocks and trees can be used to ones advantage
-aim and dodging are not based or change but on individual skill (and ping )
-other allies and their skills may be used creatively to give somebody advantage.
and I'm only talking about PVE, awarding skills based on difficulty in PVP is a whole different can of worms.
Not so condensed after all.
"Exploation" in Ryzom goes like these :
Team up with a party that kills mob for max xp and hit mob just one time and gain 3000(max) xp.
Isn't that "superior" use-skill gain ?
Use the stanza's for you mastered 'lake gathering' to gain up to 5 mats more then someone who has same level then you in the 'forest gathering' skill ?
Isnt' t that "superior" exploation of use-skill gain in Ryzom ?
In the end both skill system have too many similarities to be that different. Watch and include Darkfall passive skills !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
In 2006 they said it was their intention to let people try before buying, but then he turned it around saying it wasn't possible a few months later, something like that.
Darkfall Travelogues!
In 2006 they said it was their intention to let people try before buying, but then he turned it around saying it wasn't possible a few months later, something like that.
There are two things here really
1. some stating "I am going to be at the ball game at 11pm" is not a promise.
2. has there ever in the history of gaming been a game released on schedule with everything mentioned in the pre-game release notes?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
i like the game when i played it but combat isnt fluid enough in my opinion.
yes it does take skill and yes the amount you train your skills counts for alot.
but the movement speed and stuff makes it not fun.
besides that i really think its the closer thing to the best game ever been made. if only they would of used unreal engine.
I wish they had made it multi-core as well.
Having said that at the time it came out I was not aware of any other MMO that even came close to having as good of a combat engine as this game. Granted I havent played all of them but I am not aware of any MMO that is not pretty much just a point and click
This might have changed in the past 4 months however
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Isn't that the same engine that MO is using which lags out whenever there is more than 10 people together?
Take it easy, that was just my vain attempt at being funny.
Now, I'm going to read the articles in an attempt to look less like an ass, and come up with a better comment.
Ok, I have now read both blog posts.
First of all, the reason I attacked the argument was because I incorrectly assumed that it was an attack against all skill based systems in favor of traditional leveling systems.
As a matter of fact as a DM in a DnD group I have slowly been trying to implement a skill based advancement system that sounds a lot more like Ryzom's system than Darkfall's (even though I've never actually played Ryzom). The truth of the matter is that I agree that this approach is superior in a controlled environment such as a pen and paper rpg in which every advancement is judged on an individual basis. Also, I would assume that it's much easier to implement in a pve mmo with a stricter ruleset and more limited tactics. Furthermore it is a system much harder to implement correctly in order to achieve a balanced result compared against Darkfall's more direct approach.
Now with that being said, I find it hard to imagine how such a system could successfully be implemented in a PVP game like Darkfall which also possesses (what I consider to be) advanced AI and a much greater number of viable tactics that is not limited to just the sequence of spells/skills being used. More specifically, I wouldn't want to be in the position of the Dev setting up a system which would award balanced skill increase rewards in a situation with so many different possibilities due to the number of variables involved in the calculation.
Short Version: I agree that Ryzom's approach can be superior but I don't think you could make it work in Darkfall.
Well, that's my response, I'm sorry for degrading your post which happens to be very interesting and I hope you are still around to actually read my opinion.
If not I'll post it as a comment on your blog.
Thanks for taking the time to write out a real response. I reacted to you so harshly at first because I assumed you were an average poster here who couldn't comprehend a sentence with more than one clause. I apologize.
You've got some great stuff to say here. I agree with it. I tended to take the higher road of trying to analyze the issues in an abstract sense instead of just pointing to the unique situation arising from 3D MMOs... but your analysis is certainly valid and appreciated.
I write for That's a Terrible Idea, a blog about MMO and game design.
Well thanks.
It's always interesting, finding a fellow seeker on the endless quest for the RPG system that has the best combination of elements such as flexible, applicable, realistic and most of all fun.
I just started playing Darkfall this week, needed to scratch my MMO itch and the free trials and re-ups from other games was not doing it for me. I'm not a big PvP fan but I did very much enjoy DAoC's RvR style, which I never thought I would. So far in DF I've only had a couple of minor PvP situations and pretty much been able to PvE in peace (seems if you go a little off the beaten path few will bother you... so far).
I also like to explore and I'm impressed with the landscape and architecture of the place. I thought the Mirdain starter town I began in was pretty large and impressive then found my way to the capital and was blown away, it's quite stunning. While the graphics engine is a bit rough (I think AoC is similar in many ways) the world designers and architects have done a fantastic job from the little I have seen do far. One thing though is NPC's seem to be few and far between, the towns/cities are deserted except for four or five vendor/quest characters (I think AV are intending to add more in a future expansion/patch). Out in the wild is little better.
I also find the AI interesting and very similar to how a player (at least of limited skill like myself) would play. It's quite unlike other MMO's I have played. The agro radius is huge and it can be very difficult to take only one at a time. This is all good though as I've never liked the way in most games you can take on one NPC and have another only a few metres away remain completely oblivious (bring back the trains from old EQ!)
I have a habit of not sticking with games for long and I may not with DF but I definitely think it's worth a try if you are at all interested. I've been pleasantly surprised so far.
I'd rather beat on mobs 24/7 than be foreced to do quest to advance my character.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
idk why mo did but if you ever played section 8 was made useing unreal engine. and there games have 30vs30 and more if servers could handle it.
but is it there servers or the engines fault..? pretty sure its not the engine.
LOCKING THREAD. - ARARIS