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General: Player Perspectives - Love Gone Sour
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com columnist Jaime Skelton writes this week about relationships born in MMORPGs and how they can be disruptive not only to the couple involved, but to the people around them as well.
With Christmas a few weeks away, it's time we started dusting off the hearts in our chest to look for those warm, fuzzy feelings. Yes, Valentine's Day is a few months away, but I think it's time I turned away from looking at the, us versus them mentality of customers versus the MMO companies, and took a look at a more interesting aspect of gaming: us versus us.
There are a lot of schisms that can happen between players in an MMO environment, but there are none so strange or uncomfortable as those that come from relationships - and not just from break ups. If online dating wasn't awkward enough, imagine doing so in the public presence of hundreds or thousands. Sure, your real face may be on a dating site - but your relationship isn't up to public scrutiny, and when you're done dating one person on a dating site, you can move on to the next without your last haunting you (normally, at least).
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I have to admit that I laughed out loud at several parts of this, like "The more Mary Sue and Slater get to know each other, the more they find they don't mix. He's a PvPer; she's a hard core raider." An unexpected statement to say the least... Ah the good ol days when one worried about bad breath... now I have to worry about my tanking abilties?! But... but... what if she doesn't find them up to standards? "Well my little lady, it's not the length of the sword that counts but how I wield it bafufu bafufu."
Aha! Enough poking fun at, I think. I actually agree that it's annoying playing with couples, whether romantics or pairs of friends, because they're not that reliable. They tend to be playing with one another, rather than with the group, and therefore will up and leave all the time. Whether it's in the middle of some end-game raid or part of a PvP battle or in the middle of a quest, it's disruptive especially for someone who has bothered organizing it. Everyone else seems to be playing for their guildmates / party mates / whatever and therefore tends to see it as rude. I find this only happens with pairs or trios -- with larger groups of friends, they tend to be the ones forming it all, so you're kinda grooving to their beat anyway.
Personally, I wouldn't ever date someone starting via anything from a distance. LDRs are so unnatural, human beings are not meant to stretch a love over thousands of miles. There is no replacement for that physical presence, no cure for our yearning to be touched -- that's millions of years of evolution you're going against. Or if you're into religion: if God had wanted us to love from afar, he would have given us telepathy.
Still, an enjoyable, if unexpected, article. Nice to see something in which the writer has a personal stake. Too many people trying to be "cool" when being cool means having no passion, too many people thinking that being stoic is the same as being professional.
The article is a bit confusing... at the end it's stated that "It boils down to this: relationships online aren't any prettier than real world relationships," yet the entire article spends its time trying to explain online/MMO relationships as if they're somehow different or cause different problems. It's not a strange concept... a lot of people just don't know how to think outside of their comfy box, so they react to it as if it's strange or new.
But it's not strange, and especially not new. My grandparents "met" during WW1. And by met, I mean that my grandmother started to send letters to soldiers overseas (there were programs that would "hook" women up with men fighting so that they didn't feel so alone or isolated) and one of those soldiers was my grandfather. They exchanged quite a few letters and, when he came back, he proposed to her within a week of meeting her face-to-face. They were together until they died.
THEN it goes on to say how "if a relationship does work, count yourself among the lucky few." Lucky few? Unless someone out there has done a study specifically comparing the success rate of real-life dating vs internet dating vs MMO dating, I have to call BS.
In the case of my grandparents, I don't consider them part of the "lucky few," because that wasn't uncommon at all for their time. It was just an easier way for some to meet people. Just as online dating isn't uncommon for our time and is just easier for people who have trouble finding others with similar interests.
"The more Mary Sue and Slater get to know each other, the more they find they don't mix. He's a PvPer; she's a hard core raider."
very funny line because it is so very true i know so many people who have met others on games such as WoW and they meet in real life and it doesnt work. My old boss did that and they dated for a year then he was into doing raids and she wanted to PvP and she met someone in the arena and she left my boss for him, i lol'ed at him for about 4 months after that,
Good article, Jaime.
As someone who's been twice blessed in meeting what have become long-term real life relationships online, I have to say I have seen more people have problems than succeed.
I feel the term 'virtual' is a bit deceptive when referrring to online gaming. While the scenery might be virtual - the people are oh-so-real. Online gaming is just another method of communicating. Much like getting to know a pen-pal or someone you perhaps met on via talking on the phone at your job, you are only seeing the part of a person that they want you to see.
Yes, there ARE those out there who are 100% WYSIWYG. But they are rare gems and worth their weight in gold. More often, there are people who are trying to be someone they really are not, whether consciously with a sinister motive (such as predators or scammers), or just out of a sincere effort to try to please the object of their affections. The end result may vary in extremes but it still a similar situation. When reality sets in, the 'awakening' happens and the relationship curdles like last month's milk. This same thing happens in real life. But it is just easier online because of the fact that online you can be anyone you want to be, which may or may not be anything like who you really are. I have to wonder if perhaps the "RPG" aspect in MMORPGs may even contribute a little to this. After all, even an honest person can sometimes react 'in character' without meaning to actually be deceptive. I have to wonder how many online 'relationships' were merely role-play that went further than anticipated. After all, what is role-play, but pretending to be someone you are not?
Both the relationships in my life that began online are with people who are every bit the same today in reality as they presented themselves in game. But again, unfortunately, as this article points out, these are exceptions rather than the norm.
Keep in mind you have also described IRL relationships to a T.
One of the things I have always noticed about folks who complain about people meeting online, the complaints they have mot certainly apply to in-person as well. People will say, "Oh, but if you're doing it in-person you, can pick up on the bad ones." That is most certainly not true either. I have met guys that were all wonderful and great before; not a single person could manage something bad about the guy, yet he managed to rape our friend anyhow.
As being for people being WYSISWYG, I know someone who divorced her spouse after 18 years of marriage. They met in college. Her problem was she spent her entire marriage pretending to be someone she wasn't to please her spouse. No malicious intent, just trying to make her spouse happy.
The one thing I seem to have noticed in both offline and online relationships; in online ones it's easier to get into them. Both can be as dangerous as the other, both can be as satisfying as the other; but in either case they need to be treated like a relationship which means they need care, time, and a watchful eye; regardless of meeting them in the bar or in a dungeon (Though you know the one in the Dungeon is going to be a lot more fun than the bar.)
I hate relationship drama in mmos.
There's a reason I play my MMO in New Eden and my wife is all that over there --------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------> in Azeroth.
No drama and the best part is she can't nag my ass in game!
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Good article.
I'm in the "category" of the couple that "won't" play without each other, but...I feel you simplified this a bit too much in the article, and the word "won't" is probably far too strong a word for most couples outside of specific CIRCUMSTANCES when they "won't."
My partner (real life, and no, we didn't meet in a game) and I have very little recreational time together due to work schedules, but...we're both gamers. Both fortunately and unfortunately, we're both predominantly MMO players. She likes PvP a bit more than I, and I like raiding a bit more than she, but....we did used to enjoy running a lot of 5 and 10 man groups together and I WILL PvP with her, and she WILL raid with me, just so we can be doing something together. However....we're in a very large raid guild with over 350 people. We are two of the original members of the guild, so the core group of players know us both really well. The newer people....not so much.
The problem is this....ONE of the two guild leaders gets bent out of shape when you say, "Sure, I'll raid tonight, but I'd like it if ______ can go too." The other raid leader rarely, if ever, raids without his wife, so he's a bit more understanding about it. IF there's a spot open.
What I think some people fail to see...is that my relationship is most DEFINITELY my priority. If me being in a group or going on a raid is going to make my partner feel left out and bored playing by herself in the living room during the only day she has off for the next week....fuck your raid. It's not that important to me. She wants to play...and she wants to play with ME...and I feel the same way.
Some couples play golf together on the weekends, or go to a movie together, or a myriad of other things. I don't think it's all that "strange" that two gamers prefer to GAME TOGETHER on their days off. And while I don't expect a guild to rearrange their raid or group for it....I DO expect them to understand WHY we do it. And it has nothing to DO with "insecurity." We do play separately in the evenings during the work week. But on days OFF....does it make us somehow "insecure" to want to do something TOGETHER? I think that's just ridiculous to even suggest that.
Just because a couple likes being a part of a shared experience together, that doesn't make them insecure. We like being able to share those memories, and joke about them and laugh about them later. It's really no different than wanting to play a sport together, or go to a movie together. Sharing experiences is part of what good relationships are built on.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I've met several couples that were zero drama in MMO's. One couple I remember back from EQ, that were in my guild, didn't even speak in guild chat unless directly spoken to; they wouldn't even say hi or bye. They were always present for Guild activities and events, but they both held conversations like a machine, actually Sten from DA:O reminds me of the wife O.o. The thing I have found, if a couple is drama in an MMO, they are like that in real life too and vice versa.
To me, you seem to make a lot of assumptions based on no fact at all.
The quote that particularly got to me was:
"It might be sweet and endearing to the couple, but it's nothing but annoying to those of us who have to adjust groups based on the emotional needs and insecurities of the two of them. It's like newlyweds who can't part each other's side for more than a moment anywhere. The rest of us know it's just too sickly sweet and unnatural."
I never find it annoying when a close couple wants to group together. It's not "sickly sweet and unnatural" to me...it's just sweet and natural.
At the risk of playing the amateur psychologist, you seem like a very unhappy person based on the quote above, and other things you wrote in your article which speak for themselves. That apparently makes you want to pick on those who desire to have happiness in their own lives. (See what happens when people make judgments based on superficial things. How does that make you feel?)
"She finally finds another guild to join, but a lot of people are friends with Slater's guild mates, and she finds herself in groups with not only her former guild mates, but even her ex.”
I had a similar situation, except my wife and I were married before we started to play wow. As time progressed we got divorced, I eventually had to leave the server because I was rejected from groups because of her and her attitude. I didn't air our dirty laundry in Guild, or in general or trade chat. But she did... every step of the way. And because I chose to be the bigger man and not push the issue and defend myself I was more or less punished for it. I got tired of joining of PUG of AQ and seeing her name and the name of her new husband in my raid. I even rolled a new Character under a different name so I would not be recognizable, but still ending up in those groups with her where she'd make stupid cracks about how she was glad that I wasn't there really pissed me off.
People might think it's ridiculously stupid that kind of exclusion happens, but it does, and it's very real. It makes the game very anger inducing and frustrating. people who I thought were my friends refused to talk to me, I could not get into raids for whatever instance without her name coming up (even if she wasn't there. )
I finally swapped servers. It made it easier to deal with, and the game is fun again. It’s a lot less stress and I can enjoy it. Relationships in an MMO wither or not you were married before or after, is really difficult and can be very emotionally scarring.
I have experienced this before with an Ex, a long time ago. She was a live-in lover and I didn't meet her in an MMO either. She got real vindictive after we broke up, for a short while, and was making mutual friends cut me off; though her "BF" she had didn't, saying, "Eh, she never did anything to me, why exclude her?"
This is EXACTLY what my current wife and I do. For the reasons you've posted. I'd rather not raid if it meant going without her. Because we sit down and play and play together because we want to do it together. If one of us cannot go, neither of us do. because we'd rather spend that time together.
Generally speaking I've seen little trouble from married couples who game, they tend to be stable and not cause too much drama (if any).
But single people (or marrieds who are cheating) who begin online relatoinships have caused more drama than I care to discuss and I've seen more than one successful guild break up over them.
I myself have had to fend off 2 women who for some reason attached themselves to me (happened when I was a guild leader, seems to draw women to you) and misinterpreted our relationship for something more than it was.
One of my best friends almost got divorced because an online "friend" did a Glenn Close and confronted his RL wife in game demandning that she divorce my friend and leave the game. (MY friend had no such interest in the online woman).
And its not always women who are to blame. (though they are usually at the center of it.) One time my raiding guild in WOW almost tore itself apart when the primary raid leaders began battling for the attentions of a partiuclar female and eventually one of them quit and it took a while to recover our edge.
Perhaps the most disturbing incident was one of the few times I played a female avatar in COV, and for some reason another female (ha) avatar started latching on to me and making sexual suggestions and innuendos. At first I though it was a joke, but they person persisted for a couple of weeks. Eventually I found out the 'female" was male, and thought I was female. Ugh!
So yes online relationships do complicate my gaming experience and as such I'm pretty careful not to let them develop very much anymore.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Alganon" allows players to join different race-specific "families" depending on their play style. There's also "family chat" and "My Alganon" social networking site. I wonder if this means the relationships between any two people in the same "family" are more likely to last? Or to develop in the first place?
A lot of grown people who play MMOs have issues either with their head or their life style. After playing MMOs for a few years its just amazing how many loosers and pathetic people are out there. I don't know if I have to consider myself one of them or not, I am happily merried, we both work, about to buy a house and neither of us is really overweight. What I've noticed though, women who play MMOs are the biggest pain in the ass.
I mean real women not the guys playing with chicks on their little screens. Somehow those women are very annoying and complain like in real life. Man, I am trying to be fair to everyone, but when woman like that leaves the guild it feels like a blessing, if you know what I mean. Whining, complaining, geee... I guess they don't care that its just a game, they just need to be annoying the same way they really are in life. I really disrespect the people who come to play games and bring in their real life issues. I wish it was easy to recognize that type of person in the very beginning and just never invite them.
I don't even mention men. Its ok with women even though its annoying its kinda in their nature to whine and complain especially if that person is single. But when men act like that, its just .. man how weak you have to be to come over to MMO and whine or just be simply annoying. Fortunately in 2 year guild leadership we've only had couple moments like that, but that was enough to change the atmosphere. And thing is that people of that kind of personality will complain about anything. Gear is the worst subject. Thats why I hate games focused on gear, most of games are like that now.
Wow, such blatant and incorrect generalizations.
Wow. You certainly don't come across as having a real great relationship IRL, so I can understand why you might not want to play with her in a game! If my partner was a NAG....holy cow....I wouldn't be all that excited to play a game with her either! lol
Now seriously, I'm sure there are both men AND women that don't want to play with their real life partners. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with wanting some "alone time" to play. I can understand that. Some of us though....actually LIKE playing with our significant others.
I agree with you though. Relationship drama in a game I'm paying to play? No. I just don't want to hear about it, or have to listen to it go on in chat. I think the most annoying thing is probably when couples feel a need to argue WITH each IN GUILD CHAT. Ugh. On the other hand....I'm not too crazy about it when they have to make romantic comments back and forth in guild chat either. Interesting thing though....seems most of the "couples" that do EITHER of those things....aren't the married couples. In my experience it's been the "dating" couples or those that are "dating" only "virtually," that seem to have the most issues as far as disrupting guild fellowship.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Actually the families aren't just RACE specific, they're INTEREST specific. Like the people who have a great interest in crafting are of the "family" Martos. The players that are more acutely interested in socializing, are of the "family" DeVoss, etc. There are, I believe, four or five different "families" that you choose from based on your predominant interest. Socializing, Achieving, Competing, Crafting, and maybe one other...I don't recall. Of course, whether you are Asharr or Kujix, the family names are different. So I guess in that way, the races do play a part in family names, but it's the same interest groups on either side of the servers.
But...I too sort of wondered if this relegation of players into families based on natural interest...might actually be a catalyst in forming more naturally drawn relationships, even if just within the game itself. It's an interesting concept. It does put players into immediately recognizable groups based on their gaming interests, so I'd THINK....that might have some affect on at least finding like-minded gamers....more quickly.
But on the topic of in game romances...I don't know the long term affect this will have, if any.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Wow, such blatant and incorrect generalizations.
Wow, such ignorance about MMO communities.
*lol*
I never fell in love with a battleship so... no... besides, there aren't any girls in EvE...
No seriously, I don't know how much involved the author gets with the community on her server, but I like to keep relationships 'professional';
M
Wow, such blatant and incorrect generalizations.
Wow, such ignorance about MMO communities.
Uhm, no. The poster you're addressing is correct. Your comments are predominantly just generalizations about WOMEN, and have very little to do with the MMO community. They seem more like you taking advantage of an opportunity to vent your own personal frustrations with the female gender. That's an honest assessment of what you said.
First, you determine that MMO gamers are either mental cases or have other life issues. This has no basis in fact, whatsoever. It's a hobby. It's not any different than any other hobby, other than it's for people who like playing games, and games, are more readily playable with other people in an online form, in this day and age. Would you also say that people who get together to play Monopoly or poker are mentally unstable or unhealthy in some way? There's no difference other than in time constraints and convenience. People are busy. They want to be able to control the amount of time they invest or do not invest, in recreation. Online games are a way to enjoy some inexpensive recreation without having to go to a lot of organizational trouble in this busy world. Welcome to technology.
Secondly you say, "it's in a woman's nature to whine and complain, especially if they're single." What on earth? I would love to see some sort of evidence to back up this statement....anything...anything at all. Some scientific or psychiatric study.....No, you have nothing except your own sad and limited experience in whatever game to which you are referring.
There are a good many women gamers today. This isn't the Boys Club any more, and maybe that pisses you off a little bit? LOL The majority of them don't whine. You don't hear those gamers as much, BECAUSE they're not whining. They log in and play and socialize and have fun and log out and go to sleep and get up and go to work....just like most of the men who are playing....single, or not. Do I have evidence of this? Well, I'm a female gamer, and I have a lot of female friends that are also MMO players, and some play other games as well. None of them "whine." Of course, they're also all adults over the age of 35, so that may have some bearing on that. But I don't think women "whine" any more than some of the MEN I've seen in games crying over someone else rolling on some piece of gear they wanted. Seriously...if you're HONEST about it...you'll admit that is true.
Fact of the matter is this....
You don't like whiners. Well neither do I. Most gamers don't. But to specify that the WOMEN are the whiners, is not entirely truthful. Some PEOPLE are whiners...period. Some of those people are women, and some of them are definitely MEN. That particular personality of gamer doesn't seem to have an identifiable gender leaning, from my experience, and I've been gaming a VERY long time. If your mileage varies, perhaps you need to change games and try playing with a more adult crowd?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Ok, Ok, I guess I shouldn't be making conclusions and maybe constructed my sentences inappropriately and made them sound like I hate women, sorry, heh
. I definitely don't. What I am trying to say is that I don't appreciate people who play MMOs and spoil everyone else's fun only because they are this or that or who cares. If you come to play game - don't be selfish. People in games want to have fun. Nobody likes drama. Nobody likes whining, either you're woman or man. In my case I just had a bad experience and most of the whining I've heard was coming from women. Thats why conclusions. Of course it doesn't mean that I can judge all the women based on those 2 silly examples. Maybe I shouldn't say that all women complain, majority of them do bitch a lot though. You can argue about that if you want :P.
And Yes, I do prefer to play with mature people, grown ups with families and jobs are much more reliable than teenagers. And casual game pace - thats my pace. I prefer adult crowd and am myself getting close to 40, because there is MUCH less drama with grown ups who actually managed to mature. But unfortunately even in that adult crowd sometimes greed and BS takes over of established relationships and people just can't hold their temper, even though they should. I consider people like that first of all selfish. When they complain or bitch or whatever, they spoil it all for everyone else who hears them, but they don't care much.
That highlighted part...hit the nail right smack on the head!
Now see....I'm a woman, and I totally agree with you here. I absolutely LOATHE the in game whining and bitching and I don't care if it's a fellow female doing it, or a man. I agree. MOST of us don't PAY to listen to that shit! It's just rude not to be considerate of the other people that are ALSO paying for this gaming experience. That's maturity. Just because you think or feel something, doesn't mean you have to selfishly broadcast it to the world.
And yes, we women do tend to be rather "outward" with how we feel about things and sometimes...that does indeed come across as bitchy. :P I can't argue with that....lol! As a matter of fact, I can be pretty bitchy to people who ARE whining in guild chat, or even in trade or general chat. I have no problem letting them know, that the majority of other paying customers, are not interested in listening to their issues, and if they have someone they'd like to "discuss" them with, perhaps they should try WHISPERING someone so the rest of us can have a good time without being dragged down into the muck. Yes...I have literally said that almost word for word a few times....to men that I knew were men, and to women that i knew were women. (Isn't Ventrilo a blessing? lol)
I understand what you're saying. You're spot on. And I'm glad you know...that ALL WOMEN aren't big bawling babies. Some of us....even carry SWORDS!! LMAO!
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
*Chuckles*
Well I got a kick out of this article as my wife and I actually did meet online. Not on a dating site or an MMO but through a 3D artist facebook like site. (Like Deviantart and Renderosity) She was in Australia and I'm in California so yeah you don't get much more Long Distance than that.
Our relationship started out as emails and grew into chats and video chats. At the time I was slowly losing interest in WoW but decided, "Hey why not bring her into an online game so we can hang out more since we can't hang out in person?"
Well after a few weeks of getting acclimated to WoW (she'd played ZERO video games before this) and putting up with lag (OMG Aussies how do you stand the lag to US servers?!?!) she soon took to the whole community and aspects of WoW as mentioned in the article. We made friends, we were a couple but she quickly grew into her own person online and that was just fine to me. It helped that she was a DPS druid (Balance Spec) to my Disc Priest.
Now I'll be the first to admit my relationship with my wife was anything but "normal" in the first year but what we have was real then as it is now. The funny thing is "normal" is changing as we become more and more technical in our lives and I fully espect that by the time my daughter is dating (she's one now so hopefully in twenty years or so.
I'm a protective daddy. ) that she will have similar experiences to her mom and I. While they'll be different I have no doubt that plenty of folks will become involved "online" first before meeting in person? Will they work out better or worse than in person? Probably not, since in the end we're all still humans; but I full expect the stigma of meeting "online" will disapear as it loses it's novelty status.
Current Game: Asssasins Creed 2(PS3, Gamer Tag: Happy_Hubby)
Current MMO: World of Warcraft and World of Tanks
Former Subscribed MMO: Star Trek Online, Aion, WoW, Guild Wars, Eve Online, DAoC, City of Heroes, Shattered Galaxy, 10six.
Tried: Too many to list
Yeah I always get a chuckle reading her train wreck articles, they often give us a glimps inside a mind that most rational people would avoid at all cost; but hey at least she isn't bashing a MMO she has no clue about this time and asuuming the role as "Voice of the people."