So you come on the forums of a site dedicated to MMORPG's and say that most people on this site cant play well. Are you a troll or just plain anti-social ? I for one think theres many players on this forum that would wipe the floor with you in any aspect of gameplay. Choose your area of expertise and i wont be surprised if someone accepts a challenge. And then pwns you.
Reread what I wrote.
I think that most mmorpg gamers on this site want a D&D experience (pen & paper) and are not really the video game kids playing on consoles with fast and furious eye hand coordination.
And ... the latter is what Blizzard is including in its end game challenges right now.
Take Arena above 2200 rating, take the latest TotC 25 Heroic 25 men coordination.
That's miles away of the more traditionnel view of MMORPG's of "long grinding times" to achieve that final months long goal of crafting an epic sword ....or assemble 70 people in old EQ1.
So I don't even care about skills you or me have. You may own me 10..0000000 times.
Np.
I doubt all the people who like twitch play are console kiddies tho.
In Quake, your average player would have problems moving properly, nevermind aiming. But the "hardcore" thing is there when they could easily ignore the characters moving around with 80 km/h and still aim perfectly, causing no battle to last more than a few seconds.
It's not like this in today's FPS, games such as Modern Warfare 2 are a lot more camp oriented than the oldschool FPS.
TF2, another extremely popular game, is again a lot more slow paced than TFC.
That being said, WoW is not fully twich. The beautiful thing about this game is that you have to create a new strategy every few seconds, especially for arenas. It's like a twisted version of a Chess game.
i never said anything about restricting content for hardcore gamers BUT, let blizzard do what it does make a roaming boss encounter that appeals to a certain type of gamer like everything else they do does
Its been said if you think the game is easy do the hardmodes. I do agree i liked it better when everything was hardmode and there was no easy loot handout bosses. The reason they made WOTLK easier than the others was because they didn't want a repeat of sunwell and the original naxx. Both came out at the end of the expansion as the climax to each storyline. However, they were both so hard that only the best of the best ever saw anything past the first couple of bosses. I wish they wouldn't have toned down the challenge so much but they do have a reason for it. It's not like they sat down randomly and decided "let's see how easy we can make this game just for fun".
Ugh, EQ started this and it's boiled over into other games.
Raids were technically not meant to exist. Shoot, for YEARS a raid was merely an informal group of groups with an honor system in place. The group that did the most damage got the exp for the kill and then the wait began for the countdown so those that had randomed could loot what they had won on /random 100.
It was supposed to be a game where you had a group killing big stuff, like in the old D&D days.
Instead, you have a group of 40 mediocre copies of various classes, dancing in pre-laid out steps following some strategy guide online so they can get phat lewts.
If this turns your crank, more power to you and you are definately getting your money's worth.
But for once I have to say Blizzard actually listened to the player base and saw the logic in keeping the numbers down.
I've not played WOW in a few months (I'm actually back in EQ hehe), but they do try and keep their player base happy, which is more than can be said for most MMO companies.
I made an overview about the "hard" and "easy" modes of WOW in another thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261756/page/7 Please read it first before commenting. The thing is that most mmorpg players on this site are hardly good video game players in general (eye hand coordination guys). Blizzard - as a prime video game maker - added a lot of video game playing mechanics to its core design in the END game challenges as an mmorpg. A lot of "old folks" don't like that. Redefining of what makes an mmorpg "hard" or "easy" in its end game (Raid or Arena) with scaled difficulty. In the old fashioned EQ1 way that was "long grind in time". In the Blizzard way that is "skill based video game play".
A few hard raids doesn't really make a game hard. Wows point is not being hard, it is that anyone can play it.
There are a lot harder games, some of them without any grind, like Guildwars. But it is not a bad thing that some games are easier than others, it is actually a good thing because if all games had the same difficulty many people wouldn't enjoy them.
If you think Wow is too easy or too hard, play something else, it is just that simple. Blizzard have put the difficulty where they think most people enjoy it, I don't see what is the problem with that?
They could of course add some harder servers, like a nightmare and hell server. I think they would get the money back for a project like that but they would be really stupid if they raised the difficulty too much on all servers because they would loose a lot of players then. Wows difficulty is set for what most of the players want. If 3 millions want it like this and 1 wants it harder, what should Blizzard do (not actual numbers, just example).?
You might love or hate the game (I does neither) but we have to admit that Blizzard are the best MMO company right now on knowing what it's players want. That is the reason Wow got so big, they find out what their players wants and gives it to them.
In regards to the roamingoutside bosses there where 5 none instanced bosses in WoW, the dragon in Azhara the 3 dargons that came through the portals also lard kazak in Blasted lands.. who also returned for TBC.
I guess Blizzard deemed them usless in the larger scheme of things and didin't continue with it.
I cannot find the post but for TBC blizzard planned magtheridon to be an outside boss but later decided to instance him. So for what ever reason I dont think we'll see outside bosses in WoW.. it was tried and blizzard decided not to go that route.
Originally posted by Binny45 Instead, you have a group of 40 mediocre copies of various classes, dancing in pre-laid out steps following some strategy guide online so they can get phat lewts.
I agree about that, the AI of all MMO mobs are weak but that is a general problem in every single MMO. The raid boss should act like a real person and not just be defeated with a certain tactic that works every time, so should all mobs in a game act. You shouldn't just raise the hitpoints and immunities of bosses, making them smarter makes the challenge a lot harder.
But that isn't really relevant in this case since it is a problem that all MMOs, at least the one with raiding share.
The only acceptable AI in any MMO I seen is in Guildwars, the mobs are at least not totaly retarded there.
Originally posted by Binny45 Instead, you have a group of 40 mediocre copies of various classes, dancing in pre-laid out steps following some strategy guide online so they can get phat lewts.
I agree about that, the AI of all MMO mobs are weak but that is a general problem in every single MMO. The raid boss should act like a real person and not just be defeated with a certain tactic that works every time, so should all mobs in a game act. You shouldn't just raise the hitpoints and immunities of bosses, making them smarter makes the challenge a lot harder.
But that isn't really relevant in this case since it is a problem that all MMOs, at least the one with raiding share.
The only acceptable AI in any MMO I seen is in Guildwars, the mobs are at least not totaly retarded there.
But let's stay on topic here.
Although it is off topic, mmo AI cannot be too advanced for the simple reason.. imagine a boss who used his brain and when the fight started 1 shoot all the healers.. its game over.
I think WoW had it right in vanillia WoW, back then tanks had to work to hold aggro, DPS had to manage their DPS and healers had to manage their mana it made for a much more difficult encounter.
In current WoW it is next to impossible for a tank to lose agro, DPS can go full out from the start and healers can over heal till the cows come home.
Bring back high agro from over dps, over healing and reduce tank agro abilities and the AI wont need to be changed.
Personally...I'm playing Wow ( I bought it for my son and thats my story and im sticking to it ! ) and as a almost middle age man who has kids and work to contend with, I like the fact that WoW is not particularly challenging but still fun. I can pop in for an hour or two..play, have fun, get something done, earn enough gold to buy decent stuff and log out.
I think Blizzard was smart to steer the game away from the hardcore, genererally young crowd and more into the casual gamer. The casual gamer is casual because he spends most of his life making money and enjoying the company of loved ones. The casual gamer will play longer, complain less, and generally has more money. The hardcore gamer is never satisified, leaves the game readily, is chronically unemployed, and is often socially disfunctional.
There will never be massive success for a hard core mmorpg.
..but what do I know...I played WoW in it's open beta days and thought the game sucked and would never amount to anything...lol
Theres plenty of challenge in Wow IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT! Only 1 person in the world has completed all completable achievements http://www.wow.com/2009/12/03/taiwanese-player-earns-all-of-the-achievements/ Only 3 guilds in the world have complete the A Tribute to Immortality achievement (ToGC - reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode.) http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/patch-3-3-world-3rd-tribute-to-immortality-blue-posts/ Challenge is there if players choose to do it. In regards to the roamingoutside bosses there where 5 none instanced bosses in WoW, the dragon in Azhara the 3 dargons that came through the portals also lard kazak in Blasted lands.. who also returned for TBC. I guess Blizzard deemed them usless in the larger scheme of things and didin't continue with it. I cannot find the post but for TBC blizzard planned magtheridon to be an outside boss but later decided to instance him. So for what ever reason I dont think we'll see outside bosses in WoW.. it was tried and blizzard decided not to go that route.
This kind of challenge is like beating a game and not to die even once, or getting to max level naked, without armors and weapons. It has nothing to do with the actual gameplay. We're talking about an MMORPG, a type of game supposed to be played for months if not years.
There's currently 80 levels of experience in WoW, and it takes a few days to get to the max level. Then the fun starts, they say. You should realise that 'the end-game' is actually the time sink, something you can grind when everything else has been done. You have already beaten the game when you reach that point.
Many WoW players wish you could have an instant lvl 80 toons to get to 'the fun part' asap. Somehow i find this strange for a game which has developing characters, experience levels, and tons of content for levels 1-79. Get rid of the levels altogether if you design a game for gear grind only.
The bottom line is, an MMOG dont need to be hard, but most players seek an entertainment value for a bit longer than two months.
blizzard as the same issue as before tho,only pro do advanced content ,its worst then before,why?because now player can check if you did it before.like achievement etc
so blizzard problem wich made the game easier to play isnt solved still 80% of player dont see end game since blizzard goal is
to make end game content avail to everybody and not just top 20% ,blizzard will prob nerf it again.
unless blizzard decide to lock endgame and only alway trough group that have 30 % noob in them
in the end !itwill probably be the only way
pro run it once
then they have to run it in a blizzard decided group if you leave group ,you shut out from raid for a week
in the end its probably the only way everybody can see end game .we see ton of lfg and they dont find ,why?
dont be bad ,fast run,show achievement.
yet those same player will say its too easy ,i say stop whinning about wow behing too easy and go pug run with regular joe you ll see how hard it can be
pre-pre-pre planning is so boring i stopped running planned group a long time ago
i would rater pug raid when raidert are like minded .ho its a bitch its hard as hell but way more satisfying
Theres plenty of challenge in Wow IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT! Only 1 person in the world has completed all completable achievements http://www.wow.com/2009/12/03/taiwanese-player-earns-all-of-the-achievements/ Only 3 guilds in the world have complete the A Tribute to Immortality achievement (ToGC - reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode.) http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/patch-3-3-world-3rd-tribute-to-immortality-blue-posts/ Challenge is there if players choose to do it. In regards to the roamingoutside bosses there where 5 none instanced bosses in WoW, the dragon in Azhara the 3 dargons that came through the portals also lard kazak in Blasted lands.. who also returned for TBC. I guess Blizzard deemed them usless in the larger scheme of things and didin't continue with it. I cannot find the post but for TBC blizzard planned magtheridon to be an outside boss but later decided to instance him. So for what ever reason I dont think we'll see outside bosses in WoW.. it was tried and blizzard decided not to go that route.
This kind of challenge is like beating a game and not to die even once, or getting to max level naked, without armors and weapons. It has nothing to do with the actual gameplay. We're talking about an MMORPG, a type of game supposed to be played for months if not years.
There's currently 80 levels of experience in WoW, and it takes a few days to get to the max level. Then the fun starts, they say. You should realise that 'the end-game' is actually the time sink, something you can grind when everything else has been done. You have already beaten the game when you reach that point.
Many WoW players wish you could have an instant lvl 80 toons to get to 'the fun part' asap. Somehow i find this strange for a game which has developing characters, experience levels, and tons of content for levels 1-79. Get rid of the levels altogether if you design a game for gear grind only.
The bottom line is, an MMOG dont need to be hard, but most players seek an entertainment value for a bit longer than two months.
Apparently you never played today's WOW's scaled PVE end game and arena competition. It is where it differs from the others in time grinding.
A ladder based PvP competition is ALL about challenge and rankings.
If you don't see the obvious attraction to that, ...don't watch ANY sports or ANY ranked based competition.
I have played it, but i'm not particulary interested in that kind of a gameplay. The game has changed drastically in past years. I bought a radically different WoW than what it is now, and somehow I feel being cheated by Blizzard. If one buys a flight simulator game and after two years it changes to FIFA 2009, you have right to get mad, don't you.
There are lots of people who love the WoWs end-game. I just wonder why do you need 80 levels of questing to get there? They have already removed everything else that was left of a great MMORPG. Face it, it's only a yet another arcade game today.
Theres plenty of challenge in Wow IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT! Only 1 person in the world has completed all completable achievements http://www.wow.com/2009/12/03/taiwanese-player-earns-all-of-the-achievements/ Only 3 guilds in the world have complete the A Tribute to Immortality achievement (ToGC - reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode.) http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/patch-3-3-world-3rd-tribute-to-immortality-blue-posts/ Challenge is there if players choose to do it. In regards to the roamingoutside bosses there where 5 none instanced bosses in WoW, the dragon in Azhara the 3 dargons that came through the portals also lard kazak in Blasted lands.. who also returned for TBC. I guess Blizzard deemed them usless in the larger scheme of things and didin't continue with it. I cannot find the post but for TBC blizzard planned magtheridon to be an outside boss but later decided to instance him. So for what ever reason I dont think we'll see outside bosses in WoW.. it was tried and blizzard decided not to go that route.
This kind of challenge is like beating a game and not to die even once, or getting to max level naked, without armors and weapons. It has nothing to do with the actual gameplay. We're talking about an MMORPG, a type of game supposed to be played for months if not years.
There's currently 80 levels of experience in WoW, and it takes a few days to get to the max level. Then the fun starts, they say. You should realise that 'the end-game' is actually the time sink, something you can grind when everything else has been done. You have already beaten the game when you reach that point.
Many WoW players wish you could have an instant lvl 80 toons to get to 'the fun part' asap. Somehow i find this strange for a game which has developing characters, experience levels, and tons of content for levels 1-79. Get rid of the levels altogether if you design a game for gear grind only.
The bottom line is, an MMOG dont need to be hard, but most players seek an entertainment value for a bit longer than two months.
Apparently you never played today's WOW's scaled PVE end game and arena competition. It is where it differs from the others in time grinding.
A ladder based PvP competition is ALL about challenge and rankings.
If you don't see the obvious attraction to that, ...don't watch ANY sports or ANY ranked based competition.
open world boss fight were better even if they felt easier a bit it was dangerous ,you never knew if opposite faction woyld try and ruin your day
and if blizzard had timed the fight to be avail at only a specific time you can be sure it would have been a warzone that would still be popular today
the problem blizzard face is lag ,in instance they can control how many will be in a given area
but if its world fight ,the problem is the whole server 80s can bne caught up in those boss fight and as of yet blizzard isnt
able to cope with that
and athene proved that to us by trying to do an epic battle of 4 k player in stranglethron vale
server just crashed ,its the only reason blizzard dont go open world maybe in cataclysm blizzard will be able to go back to world pvp raid if they use donnybrooks technique and new dx11 technology
but as of yet blizzard technology for world raid plainly suck(lets face it its getting old ,we ll see if they addopt the instanced schem still if they dont, lot of player wont come back
Apparently you never played today's WOW's scaled PVE end game and arena competition. It is where it differs from the others in time grinding. A ladder based PvP competition is ALL about challenge and rankings. If you don't see the obvious attraction to that, ...don't watch ANY sports or ANY ranked based competition.
I have played it, but i'm not particulary interested in that kind of a gameplay. The game has changed drastically in past years. I bought a radically different WoW than what it is now, and somehow I feel being cheated by Blizzard. If one buys a flight simulator game and after two years it changes to FIFA 2009, you have right to get mad, don't you.
There are lots of people who love the WoWs end-game. I just wonder why do you need 80 levels of questing to get there? They have already removed everything else that was left of a great MMORPG. Face it, it's only a yet another arcade game today.
That's the feeling I described above coming from old fashioned mmorpg lovers. I understand you.
Blizzard brought the video game element in mmorpg land. And some of the boys don't like it. Level to level is just old fashion and of course it is boring.
But it is also a mentality of the said player: ---- > Just grab a new fresh character on a new server and start from scratch: you'll end up having very nice adventures (and with patch 3.3 even full time group based ones).
Let's see : I started one (20 hours played now and just got level 17 (but played as it should be without add ons and topped professions, that means to me hunting for that rare silver mine right now ... and just in time for the cross server dungeons).
I'll let you know how much time I played when dinging 80 (but I plan to do it all). My guess it that played like that you'll still need 300-400 hours to end game, which on a casual basis is 3 calander months.
The choice is yours if you want to include heirlooms, boosts and account free leveling, but you can easely play without and enjoy the ride ... now or in Cata ...
And then ... the game begins indeed.
But it doesn't have to be like that. Currently in WoW you get to the end game pretty fast, then run lvl 80 dungeons and raids for months.
What if you were required to run Deadmines for 5-10 times to gear up for the next dungeon? Then run that for a few times to gear up for the next, etc..
If a player finds that dungeon too hard, he could do some quests and get few more levels and try again. Same way you could gear up in those old raids: next expansion pack raises the level cap = a raid gets easier. Every player will see the content and no content needs to go obsolate.
This way you dont have to play same dungeons for months and wait for the next expansion to come, and developers have more time to create new content.
No matter what Blizzard does, the hardcore players will ALWAYS complain about the difficulty until Blizzard makes an encounter that is literally unbeatable. The problem is that the majority of those players don't actually give a damn about how hard the encounters are. All they care about is the loot and how exclusive it is. They complain about the difficulty not because they want a bigger challenge but because they want to show off some gear no one else has.
If Blizzard made the easiest raid encounter ever seen and made everything on its loot table only ever drop ONCE per server I doubt the ensuing complaints would have anything to do with it's difficulty and I doubt the victors would be complaining at all.
They should just release a world boss like Absolute Virtue from FFXI. He's still not been legitimately beaten in years as far as I know. The only successful cases used exploits I think. If Blizzard did that then all the hardcore players wouldn't have a leg to stand on with these 'complaints'.
They should just release a world boss like Absolute Virtue from FFXI. He's still not been legitimately beaten in years as far as I know. The only successful cases used exploits I think. If Blizzard did that then all the hardcore players wouldn't have a leg to stand on with these 'complaints'.
Except then they would complain about Blizzard releasing an unbeatable boss. Not only would it be unbeatable, but if it were a world boss, they would complain about PK's on the pvp servers etc.
I think it's important to understand that there will always be people that complain about some aspect of the game. The real trick lies in not getting mad at them for it. That's the hardest part for me, honestly.
Absolute Virtue is WoW.... that would be a trip for sure.
Personally for me in terms of difficulty I understand that it is their in the upper echelons of the game. Casual players like myself will never attempt the "hardmode", im fine with that, and i think rewards should reflect harder achievments. However, my number one complaint with Wotlk has been the complete disregard for CC. I'm a long time casual player of the game and the lack of CC in instances drives me bats. I wouldnt ask for a revamp of the game but a move back to BC heroic challenge level. I play a healer, always have in all MMO's prolly always will. CC was such a great weeder of bad players. DPS had to do more than aoe and stick to rotation. They had to watch timers on their CC, get skills to improve them, now its just group and bomb and depend on the healer and tank to have enough mitigation and throughput healing to live...which we all know doesn't require much.
I dont pretend to be awesome at the game and i dont have the drive or the want to make a commitment to do hardmodes. But what I would like is a more challenging 5 man group dynamic. In the last few monthes i have even started to move to pvp just so i can get it back. Do i hate being chain feared, T-stormed off plateaus and sheeped...sure its frustrating, but its challenging in a positive way.
blizzard as the same issue as before tho,only pro do advanced content ,its worst then before,why?because now player can check if you did it before.like achievement etc so blizzard problem wich made the game easier to play isnt solved still 80% of player dont see end game since blizzard goal is to make end game content avail to everybody and not just top 20% ,blizzard will prob nerf it again. unless blizzard decide to lock endgame and only alway trough group that have 30 % noob in them in the end !itwill probably be the only way pro run it once then they have to run it in a blizzard decided group if you leave group ,you shut out from raid for a week in the end its probably the only way everybody can see end game .we see ton of lfg and they dont find ,why? dont be bad ,fast run,show achievement. yet those same player will say its too easy ,i say stop whinning about wow behing too easy and go pug run with regular joe you ll see how hard it can be pre-pre-pre planning is so boring i stopped running planned group a long time ago i would rater pug raid when raidert are like minded .ho its a bitch its hard as hell but way more satisfying
I guess you are a defender of the randomized PUG's in the new clustered dungeon servers (in patch 3.3).
They didn't say no yet to future Raid implementation.
This is the road to future long lasting MMORPG play btw: 24/7 play with PUG's.
That's why Diablo3 wil take more and more the form of a limited mmorpg.
dont about 3.3 but if its you get the first run as you like and then you got to do a run as blizzard want kind of thing im all for it
the idea is to include new or old player that are shy and wont insist or force anybody . there are ton of people that havent seen end game ,how they see those content ?
if a nice soul stream on xfire or else where then the 80% that dont see end game will see it
do you think blizzard is happy seeing their best work go to waste on some server or being seen by only 20%
blizzard knows the problem isnt the difficulty now but the wow comunity
we ll see when cataclysm hit what they do. i do hope they find a way to include the majority of player that are excluded by the minority of player
You get a warning for telling people you reported them. Right mods?
I think that deliberately changing a post of a user is the WORST offense anyone could make in ANY form of publication.
In fact in our world it is considered a crime.
You report me because you can't prove me wrong. Fanboy it up all you want but some links you posted in previous threads proved to be false, like page 36 of increased revenue being completely bull. You're not tricking anyone.
Apparently you never played today's WOW's scaled PVE end game and arena competition. It is where it differs from the others in time grinding. A ladder based PvP competition is ALL about challenge and rankings. If you don't see the obvious attraction to that, ...don't watch ANY sports or ANY ranked based competition.
I have played it, but i'm not particulary interested in that kind of a gameplay. The game has changed drastically in past years. I bought a radically different WoW than what it is now, and somehow I feel being cheated by Blizzard. If one buys a flight simulator game and after two years it changes to FIFA 2009, you have right to get mad, don't you.
There are lots of people who love the WoWs end-game. I just wonder why do you need 80 levels of questing to get there? They have already removed everything else that was left of a great MMORPG. Face it, it's only a yet another arcade game today.
That's the feeling I described above coming from old fashioned mmorpg lovers. I understand you.
Blizzard brought the video game element in mmorpg land. And some of the boys don't like it. Level to level is just old fashion and of course it is boring.
But it is also a mentality of the said player: ---- > Just grab a new fresh character on a new server and start from scratch: you'll end up having very nice adventures (and with patch 3.3 even full time group based ones).
Let's see : I started one (20 hours played now and just got level 17 (but played as it should be without add ons and topped professions, that means to me hunting for that rare silver mine right now ... and just in time for the cross server dungeons).
I'll let you know how much time I played when dinging 80 (but I plan to do it all). My guess it that played like that you'll still need 300-400 hours to end game, which on a casual basis is 3 calander months.
The choice is yours if you want to include heirlooms, boosts and account free leveling, but you can easely play without and enjoy the ride ... now or in Cata ...
And then ... the game begins indeed.
But it doesn't have to be like that. Currently in WoW you get to the end game pretty fast, then run lvl 80 dungeons and raids for months.
What if you were required to run Deadmines for 5-10 times to gear up for the next dungeon? Then run that for a few times to gear up for the next, etc..
If a player finds that dungeon too hard, he could do some quests and get few more levels and try again. Same way you could gear up in those old raids: next expansion pack raises the level cap = a raid gets easier. Every player will see the content and no content needs to go obsolate.
This way you dont have to play same dungeons for months and wait for the next expansion to come, and developers have more time to create new content.
they could have done that with lvl 60 dungeon and raid
like you need to find a lvl 60 group and do all vanilla wow dungeon and raid in order to progress
why do i suggest that?lets face it most of the 80s can barelly clear silithus raid so if we had to do those dungeon and raid at lvl 60 ,then the end game one at lvl 70 and after that progress we wouldnt have all the issue we face and we would have lot more fun
check your achievement !when was the last time you did the leeeeroy achievement at 60.i was mean for lvl 60
most 80 have a very hard time to do it ,no wander when we hit 80 ,70% of player cant find end game group for most 25 player raid
Comments
Subscription!=trial.
Reread what I wrote.
I think that most mmorpg gamers on this site want a D&D experience (pen & paper) and are not really the video game kids playing on consoles with fast and furious eye hand coordination.
And ... the latter is what Blizzard is including in its end game challenges right now.
Take Arena above 2200 rating, take the latest TotC 25 Heroic 25 men coordination.
That's miles away of the more traditionnel view of MMORPG's of "long grinding times" to achieve that final months long goal of crafting an epic sword ....or assemble 70 people in old EQ1.
So I don't even care about skills you or me have. You may own me 10..0000000 times.
Np.
I doubt all the people who like twitch play are console kiddies tho.
In Quake, your average player would have problems moving properly, nevermind aiming. But the "hardcore" thing is there when they could easily ignore the characters moving around with 80 km/h and still aim perfectly, causing no battle to last more than a few seconds.
It's not like this in today's FPS, games such as Modern Warfare 2 are a lot more camp oriented than the oldschool FPS.
TF2, another extremely popular game, is again a lot more slow paced than TFC.
That being said, WoW is not fully twich. The beautiful thing about this game is that you have to create a new strategy every few seconds, especially for arenas. It's like a twisted version of a Chess game.
I think that deliberately changing a post of a user is the WORST offense anyone could make in ANY form of publication.
In fact in our world it is considered a crime.
Oh I agree with you 100% there. More of a question to mods, sorry it involved your post.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
i never said anything about restricting content for hardcore gamers BUT, let blizzard do what it does make a roaming boss encounter that appeals to a certain type of gamer like everything else they do does
pimpin...not really
Its been said if you think the game is easy do the hardmodes. I do agree i liked it better when everything was hardmode and there was no easy loot handout bosses. The reason they made WOTLK easier than the others was because they didn't want a repeat of sunwell and the original naxx. Both came out at the end of the expansion as the climax to each storyline. However, they were both so hard that only the best of the best ever saw anything past the first couple of bosses. I wish they wouldn't have toned down the challenge so much but they do have a reason for it. It's not like they sat down randomly and decided "let's see how easy we can make this game just for fun".
Ugh, EQ started this and it's boiled over into other games.
Raids were technically not meant to exist. Shoot, for YEARS a raid was merely an informal group of groups with an honor system in place. The group that did the most damage got the exp for the kill and then the wait began for the countdown so those that had randomed could loot what they had won on /random 100.
It was supposed to be a game where you had a group killing big stuff, like in the old D&D days.
Instead, you have a group of 40 mediocre copies of various classes, dancing in pre-laid out steps following some strategy guide online so they can get phat lewts.
If this turns your crank, more power to you and you are definately getting your money's worth.
But for once I have to say Blizzard actually listened to the player base and saw the logic in keeping the numbers down.
I've not played WOW in a few months (I'm actually back in EQ hehe), but they do try and keep their player base happy, which is more than can be said for most MMO companies.
A few hard raids doesn't really make a game hard. Wows point is not being hard, it is that anyone can play it.
There are a lot harder games, some of them without any grind, like Guildwars. But it is not a bad thing that some games are easier than others, it is actually a good thing because if all games had the same difficulty many people wouldn't enjoy them.
If you think Wow is too easy or too hard, play something else, it is just that simple. Blizzard have put the difficulty where they think most people enjoy it, I don't see what is the problem with that?
They could of course add some harder servers, like a nightmare and hell server. I think they would get the money back for a project like that but they would be really stupid if they raised the difficulty too much on all servers because they would loose a lot of players then. Wows difficulty is set for what most of the players want. If 3 millions want it like this and 1 wants it harder, what should Blizzard do (not actual numbers, just example).?
You might love or hate the game (I does neither) but we have to admit that Blizzard are the best MMO company right now on knowing what it's players want. That is the reason Wow got so big, they find out what their players wants and gives it to them.
Theres plenty of challenge in Wow IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT!
Only 1 person in the world has completed all completable achievements http://www.wow.com/2009/12/03/taiwanese-player-earns-all-of-the-achievements/
Only 3 guilds in the world have complete the A Tribute to Immortality achievement (ToGC - reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode.) http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/patch-3-3-world-3rd-tribute-to-immortality-blue-posts/
Challenge is there if players choose to do it.
In regards to the roamingoutside bosses there where 5 none instanced bosses in WoW, the dragon in Azhara the 3 dargons that came through the portals also lard kazak in Blasted lands.. who also returned for TBC.
I guess Blizzard deemed them usless in the larger scheme of things and didin't continue with it.
I cannot find the post but for TBC blizzard planned magtheridon to be an outside boss but later decided to instance him. So for what ever reason I dont think we'll see outside bosses in WoW.. it was tried and blizzard decided not to go that route.
I agree about that, the AI of all MMO mobs are weak but that is a general problem in every single MMO. The raid boss should act like a real person and not just be defeated with a certain tactic that works every time, so should all mobs in a game act. You shouldn't just raise the hitpoints and immunities of bosses, making them smarter makes the challenge a lot harder.
But that isn't really relevant in this case since it is a problem that all MMOs, at least the one with raiding share.
The only acceptable AI in any MMO I seen is in Guildwars, the mobs are at least not totaly retarded there.
But let's stay on topic here.
I agree about that, the AI of all MMO mobs are weak but that is a general problem in every single MMO. The raid boss should act like a real person and not just be defeated with a certain tactic that works every time, so should all mobs in a game act. You shouldn't just raise the hitpoints and immunities of bosses, making them smarter makes the challenge a lot harder.
But that isn't really relevant in this case since it is a problem that all MMOs, at least the one with raiding share.
The only acceptable AI in any MMO I seen is in Guildwars, the mobs are at least not totaly retarded there.
But let's stay on topic here.
Although it is off topic, mmo AI cannot be too advanced for the simple reason.. imagine a boss who used his brain and when the fight started 1 shoot all the healers.. its game over.
I think WoW had it right in vanillia WoW, back then tanks had to work to hold aggro, DPS had to manage their DPS and healers had to manage their mana it made for a much more difficult encounter.
In current WoW it is next to impossible for a tank to lose agro, DPS can go full out from the start and healers can over heal till the cows come home.
Bring back high agro from over dps, over healing and reduce tank agro abilities and the AI wont need to be changed.
Personally...I'm playing Wow ( I bought it for my son and thats my story and im sticking to it ! ) and as a almost middle age man who has kids and work to contend with, I like the fact that WoW is not particularly challenging but still fun. I can pop in for an hour or two..play, have fun, get something done, earn enough gold to buy decent stuff and log out.
I think Blizzard was smart to steer the game away from the hardcore, genererally young crowd and more into the casual gamer. The casual gamer is casual because he spends most of his life making money and enjoying the company of loved ones. The casual gamer will play longer, complain less, and generally has more money. The hardcore gamer is never satisified, leaves the game readily, is chronically unemployed, and is often socially disfunctional.
There will never be massive success for a hard core mmorpg.
..but what do I know...I played WoW in it's open beta days and thought the game sucked and would never amount to anything...lol
btw...ive played
Horizons 3 yrs ( best gaming ideas ever...worst management ever )
Vanguard 1 yr ( great game btw..only quit for personal reasons )
Guild Wars ..since launch..5 yrs now? I forget
I've dabbled in
Dungeon and Dragons
Ryzom
for what its worth
This kind of challenge is like beating a game and not to die even once, or getting to max level naked, without armors and weapons. It has nothing to do with the actual gameplay. We're talking about an MMORPG, a type of game supposed to be played for months if not years.
There's currently 80 levels of experience in WoW, and it takes a few days to get to the max level. Then the fun starts, they say. You should realise that 'the end-game' is actually the time sink, something you can grind when everything else has been done. You have already beaten the game when you reach that point.
Many WoW players wish you could have an instant lvl 80 toons to get to 'the fun part' asap. Somehow i find this strange for a game which has developing characters, experience levels, and tons of content for levels 1-79. Get rid of the levels altogether if you design a game for gear grind only.
The bottom line is, an MMOG dont need to be hard, but most players seek an entertainment value for a bit longer than two months.
blizzard as the same issue as before tho,only pro do advanced content ,its worst then before,why?because now player can check if you did it before.like achievement etc
so blizzard problem wich made the game easier to play isnt solved still 80% of player dont see end game since blizzard goal is
to make end game content avail to everybody and not just top 20% ,blizzard will prob nerf it again.
unless blizzard decide to lock endgame and only alway trough group that have 30 % noob in them
in the end !itwill probably be the only way
pro run it once
then they have to run it in a blizzard decided group if you leave group ,you shut out from raid for a week
in the end its probably the only way everybody can see end game .we see ton of lfg and they dont find ,why?
dont be bad ,fast run,show achievement.
yet those same player will say its too easy ,i say stop whinning about wow behing too easy and go pug run with regular joe you ll see how hard it can be
pre-pre-pre planning is so boring i stopped running planned group a long time ago
i would rater pug raid when raidert are like minded .ho its a bitch its hard as hell but way more satisfying
This kind of challenge is like beating a game and not to die even once, or getting to max level naked, without armors and weapons. It has nothing to do with the actual gameplay. We're talking about an MMORPG, a type of game supposed to be played for months if not years.
There's currently 80 levels of experience in WoW, and it takes a few days to get to the max level. Then the fun starts, they say. You should realise that 'the end-game' is actually the time sink, something you can grind when everything else has been done. You have already beaten the game when you reach that point.
Many WoW players wish you could have an instant lvl 80 toons to get to 'the fun part' asap. Somehow i find this strange for a game which has developing characters, experience levels, and tons of content for levels 1-79. Get rid of the levels altogether if you design a game for gear grind only.
The bottom line is, an MMOG dont need to be hard, but most players seek an entertainment value for a bit longer than two months.
Apparently you never played today's WOW's scaled PVE end game and arena competition. It is where it differs from the others in time grinding.
A ladder based PvP competition is ALL about challenge and rankings.
If you don't see the obvious attraction to that, ...don't watch ANY sports or ANY ranked based competition.
I have played it, but i'm not particulary interested in that kind of a gameplay. The game has changed drastically in past years. I bought a radically different WoW than what it is now, and somehow I feel being cheated by Blizzard. If one buys a flight simulator game and after two years it changes to FIFA 2009, you have right to get mad, don't you.
There are lots of people who love the WoWs end-game. I just wonder why do you need 80 levels of questing to get there? They have already removed everything else that was left of a great MMORPG. Face it, it's only a yet another arcade game today.
This kind of challenge is like beating a game and not to die even once, or getting to max level naked, without armors and weapons. It has nothing to do with the actual gameplay. We're talking about an MMORPG, a type of game supposed to be played for months if not years.
There's currently 80 levels of experience in WoW, and it takes a few days to get to the max level. Then the fun starts, they say. You should realise that 'the end-game' is actually the time sink, something you can grind when everything else has been done. You have already beaten the game when you reach that point.
Many WoW players wish you could have an instant lvl 80 toons to get to 'the fun part' asap. Somehow i find this strange for a game which has developing characters, experience levels, and tons of content for levels 1-79. Get rid of the levels altogether if you design a game for gear grind only.
The bottom line is, an MMOG dont need to be hard, but most players seek an entertainment value for a bit longer than two months.
Apparently you never played today's WOW's scaled PVE end game and arena competition. It is where it differs from the others in time grinding.
A ladder based PvP competition is ALL about challenge and rankings.
If you don't see the obvious attraction to that, ...don't watch ANY sports or ANY ranked based competition.
open world boss fight were better even if they felt easier a bit it was dangerous ,you never knew if opposite faction woyld try and ruin your day
and if blizzard had timed the fight to be avail at only a specific time you can be sure it would have been a warzone that would still be popular today
the problem blizzard face is lag ,in instance they can control how many will be in a given area
but if its world fight ,the problem is the whole server 80s can bne caught up in those boss fight and as of yet blizzard isnt
able to cope with that
and athene proved that to us by trying to do an epic battle of 4 k player in stranglethron vale
server just crashed ,its the only reason blizzard dont go open world maybe in cataclysm blizzard will be able to go back to world pvp raid if they use donnybrooks technique and new dx11 technology
but as of yet blizzard technology for world raid plainly suck(lets face it its getting old ,we ll see if they addopt the instanced schem still if they dont, lot of player wont come back
I have played it, but i'm not particulary interested in that kind of a gameplay. The game has changed drastically in past years. I bought a radically different WoW than what it is now, and somehow I feel being cheated by Blizzard. If one buys a flight simulator game and after two years it changes to FIFA 2009, you have right to get mad, don't you.
There are lots of people who love the WoWs end-game. I just wonder why do you need 80 levels of questing to get there? They have already removed everything else that was left of a great MMORPG. Face it, it's only a yet another arcade game today.
That's the feeling I described above coming from old fashioned mmorpg lovers. I understand you.
Blizzard brought the video game element in mmorpg land. And some of the boys don't like it. Level to level is just old fashion and of course it is boring.
But it is also a mentality of the said player: ---- > Just grab a new fresh character on a new server and start from scratch: you'll end up having very nice adventures (and with patch 3.3 even full time group based ones).
Let's see : I started one (20 hours played now and just got level 17 (but played as it should be without add ons and topped professions, that means to me hunting for that rare silver mine right now ... and just in time for the cross server dungeons).
I'll let you know how much time I played when dinging 80 (but I plan to do it all). My guess it that played like that you'll still need 300-400 hours to end game, which on a casual basis is 3 calander months.
The choice is yours if you want to include heirlooms, boosts and account free leveling, but you can easely play without and enjoy the ride ... now or in Cata ...
And then ... the game begins indeed.
But it doesn't have to be like that. Currently in WoW you get to the end game pretty fast, then run lvl 80 dungeons and raids for months.
What if you were required to run Deadmines for 5-10 times to gear up for the next dungeon? Then run that for a few times to gear up for the next, etc..
If a player finds that dungeon too hard, he could do some quests and get few more levels and try again. Same way you could gear up in those old raids: next expansion pack raises the level cap = a raid gets easier. Every player will see the content and no content needs to go obsolate.
This way you dont have to play same dungeons for months and wait for the next expansion to come, and developers have more time to create new content.
No matter what Blizzard does, the hardcore players will ALWAYS complain about the difficulty until Blizzard makes an encounter that is literally unbeatable. The problem is that the majority of those players don't actually give a damn about how hard the encounters are. All they care about is the loot and how exclusive it is. They complain about the difficulty not because they want a bigger challenge but because they want to show off some gear no one else has.
If Blizzard made the easiest raid encounter ever seen and made everything on its loot table only ever drop ONCE per server I doubt the ensuing complaints would have anything to do with it's difficulty and I doubt the victors would be complaining at all.
They should just release a world boss like Absolute Virtue from FFXI. He's still not been legitimately beaten in years as far as I know. The only successful cases used exploits I think. If Blizzard did that then all the hardcore players wouldn't have a leg to stand on with these 'complaints'.
Except then they would complain about Blizzard releasing an unbeatable boss. Not only would it be unbeatable, but if it were a world boss, they would complain about PK's on the pvp servers etc.
I think it's important to understand that there will always be people that complain about some aspect of the game. The real trick lies in not getting mad at them for it. That's the hardest part for me, honestly.
Absolute Virtue is WoW.... that would be a trip for sure.
http://www.examiner.com/x-32227-Santa-Ana-MMORPG-Examiner
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Link me yogg zero keppers achiv - Link me alagon25 achiv - link me Anub25HC achiv.
Personally for me in terms of difficulty I understand that it is their in the upper echelons of the game. Casual players like myself will never attempt the "hardmode", im fine with that, and i think rewards should reflect harder achievments. However, my number one complaint with Wotlk has been the complete disregard for CC. I'm a long time casual player of the game and the lack of CC in instances drives me bats. I wouldnt ask for a revamp of the game but a move back to BC heroic challenge level. I play a healer, always have in all MMO's prolly always will. CC was such a great weeder of bad players. DPS had to do more than aoe and stick to rotation. They had to watch timers on their CC, get skills to improve them, now its just group and bomb and depend on the healer and tank to have enough mitigation and throughput healing to live...which we all know doesn't require much.
I dont pretend to be awesome at the game and i dont have the drive or the want to make a commitment to do hardmodes. But what I would like is a more challenging 5 man group dynamic. In the last few monthes i have even started to move to pvp just so i can get it back. Do i hate being chain feared, T-stormed off plateaus and sheeped...sure its frustrating, but its challenging in a positive way.
The difficulty is fine.
I just check guild progress of my server on http://www.wow-heroes.com/.
Lots of guilds have not even clear TOC 25 yet (including mine, we cleared 10 though). The game should not be catered to just the top 2-3 guilds.
And guild progress statistics is a good way to see how difficult things are .. statistically .. and not someone yelling it is too easy or too hard.
BTW, these are the guilds which TRY. There are guilds who are not even trying.
You can make WoW as hard as you want. One way is to limit yourself to wearing only blues, no purples.
We had a blast doing heroics in just greens. CC was required in that situation. Mana management was a huge issue.
Levels 1 to 79 are tutorial levels that teach you how to play your toon. The real game in WoW is at 80.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I guess you are a defender of the randomized PUG's in the new clustered dungeon servers (in patch 3.3).
They didn't say no yet to future Raid implementation.
This is the road to future long lasting MMORPG play btw: 24/7 play with PUG's.
That's why Diablo3 wil take more and more the form of a limited mmorpg.
dont about 3.3 but if its you get the first run as you like and then you got to do a run as blizzard want kind of thing im all for it
the idea is to include new or old player that are shy and wont insist or force anybody . there are ton of people that havent seen end game ,how they see those content ?
if a nice soul stream on xfire or else where then the 80% that dont see end game will see it
do you think blizzard is happy seeing their best work go to waste on some server or being seen by only 20%
blizzard knows the problem isnt the difficulty now but the wow comunity
we ll see when cataclysm hit what they do. i do hope they find a way to include the majority of player that are excluded by the minority of player
I think that deliberately changing a post of a user is the WORST offense anyone could make in ANY form of publication.
In fact in our world it is considered a crime.
You report me because you can't prove me wrong. Fanboy it up all you want but some links you posted in previous threads proved to be false, like page 36 of increased revenue being completely bull. You're not tricking anyone.
I have played it, but i'm not particulary interested in that kind of a gameplay. The game has changed drastically in past years. I bought a radically different WoW than what it is now, and somehow I feel being cheated by Blizzard. If one buys a flight simulator game and after two years it changes to FIFA 2009, you have right to get mad, don't you.
There are lots of people who love the WoWs end-game. I just wonder why do you need 80 levels of questing to get there? They have already removed everything else that was left of a great MMORPG. Face it, it's only a yet another arcade game today.
That's the feeling I described above coming from old fashioned mmorpg lovers. I understand you.
Blizzard brought the video game element in mmorpg land. And some of the boys don't like it. Level to level is just old fashion and of course it is boring.
But it is also a mentality of the said player: ---- > Just grab a new fresh character on a new server and start from scratch: you'll end up having very nice adventures (and with patch 3.3 even full time group based ones).
Let's see : I started one (20 hours played now and just got level 17 (but played as it should be without add ons and topped professions, that means to me hunting for that rare silver mine right now ... and just in time for the cross server dungeons).
I'll let you know how much time I played when dinging 80 (but I plan to do it all). My guess it that played like that you'll still need 300-400 hours to end game, which on a casual basis is 3 calander months.
The choice is yours if you want to include heirlooms, boosts and account free leveling, but you can easely play without and enjoy the ride ... now or in Cata ...
And then ... the game begins indeed.
But it doesn't have to be like that. Currently in WoW you get to the end game pretty fast, then run lvl 80 dungeons and raids for months.
What if you were required to run Deadmines for 5-10 times to gear up for the next dungeon? Then run that for a few times to gear up for the next, etc..
If a player finds that dungeon too hard, he could do some quests and get few more levels and try again. Same way you could gear up in those old raids: next expansion pack raises the level cap = a raid gets easier. Every player will see the content and no content needs to go obsolate.
This way you dont have to play same dungeons for months and wait for the next expansion to come, and developers have more time to create new content.
they could have done that with lvl 60 dungeon and raid
like you need to find a lvl 60 group and do all vanilla wow dungeon and raid in order to progress
why do i suggest that?lets face it most of the 80s can barelly clear silithus raid so if we had to do those dungeon and raid at lvl 60 ,then the end game one at lvl 70 and after that progress we wouldnt have all the issue we face and we would have lot more fun
check your achievement !when was the last time you did the leeeeroy achievement at 60.i was mean for lvl 60
most 80 have a very hard time to do it ,no wander when we hit 80 ,70% of player cant find end game group for most 25 player raid