Because they all come from WoW and honestly the less people we get from WoW the better off we are. WoW is all they know and it is so true. They think that every game shoud have 100 man raids and button mashing is good pvp.
I don't understand what the big deal is. Unless it's just going to be a zerg fest, the number of people in a raid should rightfully be an indication of the complexity of the raid itself in pve. Coming from EQ, I can tell you that 100 man raids (and I have actually been in a few of those) does not necessarily mean that it's just a zerg fest. Healers have their job to do as do the tanks, dps and cc personnel. Off tanking, chaining/controlling heals, controlling aggro, controlling dps, locking down mobs, all this contribute to a fun raid.
Yes, it is likely that these sorts of raids will be long winded but at the end of the day there's real satisfaction that the raid was successful in terms of the teamwork between all the participants. Recently coming from Co where the raids were essentially 5 man, I can honestly say that there's really no real thrill to it. PUGs get together, hit the instance, and half hour or so later they're done, part ways and that's it. Where's the fun in that ? Made me feel like I was in a single-player stand-alone game with npcs as part of the raid team. No sense of community, no one doing the usual "Are we there yet ?" jokes, no young hot blooded teen trying to hit on the (presumably) hot chanter, no idle chat in the background with the guys making plans to meet up later for real drinks at the pub after everything's done, no one shouting out football scores right in the middle of the fight (), etc.
All I'm saying is that perhaps not all who are asking for 25 person raids may be aiming for end game loot. They may just be looking for a challenge.
i've never tried WoW, but given that this game is being designed using WoW as it's "model of success", it would only make sense that it has similar gameplay types. also, WoW didn't invent multi-group encounters. i never really liked raiding in MMOs until i started playing EQ2, in EQ2 the raids are very challenging and fun. And they are based on having player skill and working together, not on who has the most time to play. It's a great way to add challenge to the PvE aspect of the game that is sorely lacking in so many MMOs. hopefully TOR will have some challenging content that requires skill and organization to beat.
this game isnt being made using WoW as a model. Never utter this disgusting blasphemy again. on topic now, ive never heard anything about people wanting these gigantic raids. is it on the official forums or something?
it is according to Bioware. they said as much in one of the earlier interviews (at E3 a year or two ago i think). that was basically when i largely stopped following the game. it's not my opinion or a dig at the game, it's merely what Bioware has said.
That's a misquote. They're taking to a similar formula, but not going the same route entirely. That's why (educated speculation) they chose to go with the "stylistic realism" effect of characters. That's also why they'll probably be compatible with dx9. Another educated guess. But, being that there isn't really alot going on in the way of dx10+, it doesn't take much education to figure out really.
Honestly, though, I've been disappointed since finding out about the final two classes. It is a mistake on their part, in my humble opinion, to provide two force-using classes per faction when there are only 4 classes per faction to speak of. But, I still look forward to the game. And I'm way off subject too lol.
Are you talking about the 2007 article with Walton, where he gave a speech about making MMOs post-WoW?
As for the SI, JC. I wasn't exactly shocked, Sith "Warrior" and Jedi "Knight" implied something. Was I disappointed? A little bit, but if I was asked what should have taken their spots, I wouldn't have a clue. I'm starting to think it was a good (not great) move by BioWare. Sure, four force users etc, but that is not exactly bad as it will open more customization to the JK and SW and they're not restricted by the two paths you can take. I imagine without the JC and SI the JK and SW would look something like this. Tank tree clustered into the DPS tree while the Healer tree was clustered into the ranged caster tree. It would basically be the same problem WoW was dealing with on release. They would be forced into one because one path was less clustered then the other. But with this they will have a pretty clear player chosen path without having to pick whats the best way to get around useless skill A.
Of coarse this is my point of view, I could totally be wrong.
Btw I'm using the tank/dps/healer as filler. BioWare has said they're against one certain class being an absolute for something. I'm just saying, when I go up a melee tree I don't want to run into a full tier of abilities consisting of "more defense" and HAVE to pick one for something that doesn't support my playstyle.
Because we all know that MMO companies pay more attention to those 'hardcore' individuals who make up a small percentage of their overall playerbase and hog more bandwidth due to longer play sessions. Oh and lets not forget that they are 'super elite' time wasters and therefore deserve recognition in game and out to their ability to sit behind a screen press buttons for 8+ hours a day... /sarcasmoff cheers!
Planning a game around people who play 30 minutes a day and can't muster the complexity of co-operating with a few others for a kill is equally fail. There can and should be a middle-ground.
As I mentioned I personally think EQ2's endgame is a great model. Even the hardest mob takes at most 30 minutes to kill. This has resulted in many people like myself who were always deterred from the end-game by the massive time commitments to embrace and participate. And there are enough mobs to spend 8 hours on if one wanted, yet it can all be done in bite-size chunks for those of us that don't have that kind of time. Ultimately it's about skill and not about who plays the most. Although, for those that play "hardcore" there are a few higher rank mobs that I'll never get to kill. But that's fine, I choose not to invest the time to do those, so I am ok not having the rewards from them. I never understood this point of view of "i don't like doing this, so others shouldn't be able to either"
Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing while reading these threads. It's like they're reading from some MMO Gamer's 10 Commandments or something, as though it's their game and they're making the rules. "Thou shalt not have raids larger than 10-man, for to do so is evil".
Well... I dunno... I learned when I was oh geeze... really young, pre-school at least, that it's polite to share.
What's wrong with them having 20+ raids for those who enjoy that, and also having smaller 10 man raids for those who enjoy those... and maybe - if we want to *really* get crazy - some tougher encounters for solo or smaller groups as well? You know... so there's something for everyone?
Oh no. Can't have that, now can we? Let me see if I've gotten the attitude down accurately from reading MMO forums for so long: "Well if there are 20 man raids, and I don't like 20 man raids, then I won't do them, which means I'm being cheated out of content that I can't do". Yeah that looks about right.
Well, boo-freaking-hoo. You *can* do the content... You *choose* not to. There's a difference. People who do enjoy larger raids should not be denied them because you don't like them. No more so than people who like smaller raids shouldn't be denied them because someone else thinks they suck.
Why are there so many people who feel it has to be *their* way, or it's no good? I mean, the insults are already being hurled here, blaming "those damned WoW players" for something that, from what I can glean from this thread, isn't even official yet. But boy, people are already ramping up the drama over it.
Good grief, people. These aren't *your* games. You don't get to dictate how they *should* be designed. You get to play them (or not) and make suggestions (or not), just like everyone else. Deciding you want to play a game doesn't earn you a seat at the design meetings.
Problem with that is, 20 man raids will want better gear then the people who are more casual and will only ever want to attend 10 mans. Too much of a probelm if you ask me, so pick either only 10 mans or only 20 mans.
In any game, gear should always be progression based. in other words, you should need better gear to do tougher encounters. so that people who want to do 20 man raids should get gear that will help them defeat tougher 20 man raids. People who are never going to do 20 man raids shouldn't need gear from those raids in order to succeed at what they are doing. In fantasy-game terms "if you don't plan to fight dragons, then you don't need the Sword of Dragonslaying that comes from slaying a dragon. For killing rats, Sword of Ratkilling should be enough".
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I have to say, looking at all the information from the official site, Pax videos and such, wouldn't it be awkward trying to have 20-35 man raiding in this game? Hell, I see a lot of pre- guilds say we are a hardcore raiding guild with 7 day raiding schedules from 5am-5am anytime so pick your class and apply. Okay let's look at the logic of this, we have a total of 8 classes (which may or may not be able to group together) the most I can see is, possibly 8 mans?
I don't know but it doesn't make sense to me looking at the classes and having a hero, minion or companion system in place (why would I wanna share my loot drops with people, again?). I just don't think these people are looking out the box and are basing classes developers have pretty much shown us there is no trinity system in place (proven from what we now know). Inquisitor = ranged dps/healer/ nuker CC (with some melee abilities) Sith Warrior = Tank dps Jedi Knight = same as Sith Warrior Consular = CC/healer/melee Imperial agent = CC/Nuker/utility class Smuggler (possibly the same) Trooper Ranged tank/dps Bounty Hunter = CC/debuff/Nuker/utility class
I don't know, I'm just trying to make sense out of what people are already putting in guild outlines (we are the best, you should be the best and we will be starting 25 man bull$#*%) and it just doesn't make any sense at all from my stand point right now. I think ToR pre guilds with 25 man raid interests are a waste currently, the way things are set up with classes (probably can get just as much, if not more done with a group of four friends).
I'm not sure the game is being designed to support that type of content but anything could change I suppose. I think a lot of the call for this type of content comes from those that really enjoy dungeon and PvE content a la WoW type raiding. Unfortunately that's what sells boxes it seems but I really wouldn't mind more 5 to 10 man type PvE content rather than the super large raid type encounters. Only time will tell I suppose!
I think 5-10 player PvE grouping combined with strong single player PvE a really positive factor for an MMORPG, and SW:TOR should embrace this. Large 40+ raiding games are a thing of the past, we live in the age of the immersive MMORPG. Years ago there were limitations in computing capacity so game developers made the raid dungeons simpler with as many as you wanted to bring, those days are gone. Personally I think it will be a treat.
I have to say, looking at all the information from the official site, Pax videos and such, wouldn't it be awkward trying to have 20-35 man raiding in this game? Hell, I see a lot of pre- guilds say we are a hardcore raiding guild with 7 day raiding schedules from 5am-5am anytime so pick your class and apply. Okay let's look at the logic of this, we have a total of 8 classes (which may or may not be able to group together) the most I can see is, possibly 8 mans?
I don't know but it doesn't make sense to me looking at the classes and having a hero, minion or companion system in place (why would I wanna share my loot drops with people, again?). I just don't think these people are looking out the box and are basing classes developers have pretty much shown us there is no trinity system in place (proven from what we now know). Inquisitor = ranged dps/healer/ nuker CC (with some melee abilities) Sith Warrior = Tank dps Jedi Knight = same as Sith Warrior Consular = CC/healer/melee Imperial agent = CC/Nuker/utility class Smuggler (possibly the same) Trooper Ranged tank/dps Bounty Hunter = CC/debuff/Nuker/utility class
I don't know, I'm just trying to make sense out of what people are already putting in guild outlines (we are the best, you should be the best and we will be starting 25 man bull$#*%) and it just doesn't make any sense at all from my stand point right now. I think ToR pre guilds with 25 man raid interests are a waste currently, the way things are set up with classes (probably can get just as much, if not more done with a group of four friends).
I honestly think it is as simple as no one knows what is in store for SWTOR. why I say this is, the guilds advertising for members are using the recruitment standards set by thier previous guild requirements. its a standard for most looking for a guild to relate to this type of game play from a guild. which might give them insentive to apply and wait for the game to develop.
know one knows what is in store or how much PVE or PVP or Raiding there will be in swtor. But every guild is programed in mentality to get a jump on the "lot" of available players to hang out in a "not yet relesed mmo" vent or guild forums to build and establish a foundation as information is revealed...many of the recruitment advertisements they use will be amended or adjusted as they find things out...like raid size, guild member size, group size, raid style content, pvp content, faction allowance, class roles...etc etc.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
I have to say, looking at all the information from the official site, Pax videos and such, wouldn't it be awkward trying to have 20-35 man raiding in this game? Hell, I see a lot of pre- guilds say we are a hardcore raiding guild with 7 day raiding schedules from 5am-5am anytime so pick your class and apply. Okay let's look at the logic of this, we have a total of 8 classes (which may or may not be able to group together) the most I can see is, possibly 8 mans?
I don't know but it doesn't make sense to me looking at the classes and having a hero, minion or companion system in place (why would I wanna share my loot drops with people, again?). I just don't think these people are looking out the box and are basing classes developers have pretty much shown us there is no trinity system in place (proven from what we now know). Inquisitor = ranged dps/healer/ nuker CC (with some melee abilities) Sith Warrior = Tank dps Jedi Knight = same as Sith Warrior Consular = CC/healer/melee Imperial agent = CC/Nuker/utility class Smuggler (possibly the same) Trooper Ranged tank/dps Bounty Hunter = CC/debuff/Nuker/utility class
I don't know, I'm just trying to make sense out of what people are already putting in guild outlines (we are the best, you should be the best and we will be starting 25 man bull$#*%) and it just doesn't make any sense at all from my stand point right now. I think ToR pre guilds with 25 man raid interests are a waste currently, the way things are set up with classes (probably can get just as much, if not more done with a group of four friends).
I'm not sure the game is being designed to support that type of content but anything could change I suppose. I think a lot of the call for this type of content comes from those that really enjoy dungeon and PvE content a la WoW type raiding. Unfortunately that's what sells boxes it seems but I really wouldn't mind more 5 to 10 man type PvE content rather than the super large raid type encounters. Only time will tell I suppose!
I think 5-10 player PvE grouping combined with strong single player PvE a really positive factor for an MMORPG, and SW:TOR should embrace this. Large 40+ raiding games are a thing of the past, we live in the age of the immersive MMORPG. Years ago there were limitations in computing capacity so game developers made the raid dungeons simpler with as many as you wanted to bring, those days are gone. Personally I think it will be a treat.
As for the large scale raiding - in EQ the cap was 72 member raid group UI, but it didn’t always take 72 to defeat a boss or clear to an event, it could be done with 25-35 guildies. But the road to get there was full of camaraderie and no one was left out that wanted to attend the raid to help out.
I for one miss those large scale raids because of the guild community. The down scaling of raids now do not require a large guild/community, if Bioware goes with what many are asking for a 5-10 man raid system, then there is no need for a guild at all! So end the circle of MMO community as we once knew it, we will know the names of Gold farmers and botters more then any guildies name...imho
i think that pve raids should be there for those that want it. in 5 10 and 25 man varieties. 25 man is really the upper limit for raid sizes nowadays as anything more has proven to be really frustrating.
hopefully gear prgression won't be a focus of pve. as it is pretty lame. gear has always been a means to an end for me, and there are people who feel entitled to better gear which gives them an advantage in pvp for doing more pve. so as long as gear for both pve and pvp is both progressive and accessible i am all for it.
Comments
I would like to see 100 man raids 0.o
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
I don't understand what the big deal is. Unless it's just going to be a zerg fest, the number of people in a raid should rightfully be an indication of the complexity of the raid itself in pve. Coming from EQ, I can tell you that 100 man raids (and I have actually been in a few of those) does not necessarily mean that it's just a zerg fest. Healers have their job to do as do the tanks, dps and cc personnel. Off tanking, chaining/controlling heals, controlling aggro, controlling dps, locking down mobs, all this contribute to a fun raid.
Yes, it is likely that these sorts of raids will be long winded but at the end of the day there's real satisfaction that the raid was successful in terms of the teamwork between all the participants. Recently coming from Co where the raids were essentially 5 man, I can honestly say that there's really no real thrill to it. PUGs get together, hit the instance, and half hour or so later they're done, part ways and that's it. Where's the fun in that ? Made me feel like I was in a single-player stand-alone game with npcs as part of the raid team. No sense of community, no one doing the usual "Are we there yet ?" jokes, no young hot blooded teen trying to hit on the (presumably) hot chanter, no idle chat in the background with the guys making plans to meet up later for real drinks at the pub after everything's done, no one shouting out football scores right in the middle of the fight (
), etc.
All I'm saying is that perhaps not all who are asking for 25 person raids may be aiming for end game loot. They may just be looking for a challenge.
this game isnt being made using WoW as a model. Never utter this disgusting blasphemy again. on topic now, ive never heard anything about people wanting these gigantic raids. is it on the official forums or something?
it is according to Bioware. they said as much in one of the earlier interviews (at E3 a year or two ago i think). that was basically when i largely stopped following the game. it's not my opinion or a dig at the game, it's merely what Bioware has said.
That's a misquote. They're taking to a similar formula, but not going the same route entirely. That's why (educated speculation) they chose to go with the "stylistic realism" effect of characters. That's also why they'll probably be compatible with dx9. Another educated guess. But, being that there isn't really alot going on in the way of dx10+, it doesn't take much education to figure out really.
Honestly, though, I've been disappointed since finding out about the final two classes. It is a mistake on their part, in my humble opinion, to provide two force-using classes per faction when there are only 4 classes per faction to speak of. But, I still look forward to the game. And I'm way off subject too lol.
Are you talking about the 2007 article with Walton, where he gave a speech about making MMOs post-WoW?
As for the SI, JC. I wasn't exactly shocked, Sith "Warrior" and Jedi "Knight" implied something. Was I disappointed? A little bit, but if I was asked what should have taken their spots, I wouldn't have a clue. I'm starting to think it was a good (not great) move by BioWare. Sure, four force users etc, but that is not exactly bad as it will open more customization to the JK and SW and they're not restricted by the two paths you can take. I imagine without the JC and SI the JK and SW would look something like this. Tank tree clustered into the DPS tree while the Healer tree was clustered into the ranged caster tree. It would basically be the same problem WoW was dealing with on release. They would be forced into one because one path was less clustered then the other. But with this they will have a pretty clear player chosen path without having to pick whats the best way to get around useless skill A.
Of coarse this is my point of view, I could totally be wrong.
Btw I'm using the tank/dps/healer as filler. BioWare has said they're against one certain class being an absolute for something. I'm just saying, when I go up a melee tree I don't want to run into a full tier of abilities consisting of "more defense" and HAVE to pick one for something that doesn't support my playstyle.
I dunno it just depends how it's executed..I think it will be silly if its just like any other game though.
Planning a game around people who play 30 minutes a day and can't muster the complexity of co-operating with a few others for a kill is equally fail. There can and should be a middle-ground.
As I mentioned I personally think EQ2's endgame is a great model. Even the hardest mob takes at most 30 minutes to kill. This has resulted in many people like myself who were always deterred from the end-game by the massive time commitments to embrace and participate. And there are enough mobs to spend 8 hours on if one wanted, yet it can all be done in bite-size chunks for those of us that don't have that kind of time. Ultimately it's about skill and not about who plays the most. Although, for those that play "hardcore" there are a few higher rank mobs that I'll never get to kill. But that's fine, I choose not to invest the time to do those, so I am ok not having the rewards from them. I never understood this point of view of "i don't like doing this, so others shouldn't be able to either"
Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing while reading these threads. It's like they're reading from some MMO Gamer's 10 Commandments or something, as though it's their game and they're making the rules. "Thou shalt not have raids larger than 10-man, for to do so is evil".
Well... I dunno... I learned when I was oh geeze... really young, pre-school at least, that it's polite to share.
What's wrong with them having 20+ raids for those who enjoy that, and also having smaller 10 man raids for those who enjoy those... and maybe - if we want to *really* get crazy - some tougher encounters for solo or smaller groups as well? You know... so there's something for everyone?
Oh no. Can't have that, now can we? Let me see if I've gotten the attitude down accurately from reading MMO forums for so long: "Well if there are 20 man raids, and I don't like 20 man raids, then I won't do them, which means I'm being cheated out of content that I can't do". Yeah that looks about right.
Well, boo-freaking-hoo. You *can* do the content... You *choose* not to. There's a difference. People who do enjoy larger raids should not be denied them because you don't like them. No more so than people who like smaller raids shouldn't be denied them because someone else thinks they suck.
Why are there so many people who feel it has to be *their* way, or it's no good? I mean, the insults are already being hurled here, blaming "those damned WoW players" for something that, from what I can glean from this thread, isn't even official yet. But boy, people are already ramping up the drama over it.
Good grief, people. These aren't *your* games. You don't get to dictate how they *should* be designed. You get to play them (or not) and make suggestions (or not), just like everyone else. Deciding you want to play a game doesn't earn you a seat at the design meetings.
Problem with that is, 20 man raids will want better gear then the people who are more casual and will only ever want to attend 10 mans. Too much of a probelm if you ask me, so pick either only 10 mans or only 20 mans.
In any game, gear should always be progression based. in other words, you should need better gear to do tougher encounters. so that people who want to do 20 man raids should get gear that will help them defeat tougher 20 man raids. People who are never going to do 20 man raids shouldn't need gear from those raids in order to succeed at what they are doing. In fantasy-game terms "if you don't plan to fight dragons, then you don't need the Sword of Dragonslaying that comes from slaying a dragon. For killing rats, Sword of Ratkilling should be enough".
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
What? You want to solo a krayt dragon? LUL
I hope they do PQs (public quests) like Warhammer, that way you dont have to try to organize raids, people can just join and help out.
I'm not sure the game is being designed to support that type of content but anything could change I suppose. I think a lot of the call for this type of content comes from those that really enjoy dungeon and PvE content a la WoW type raiding. Unfortunately that's what sells boxes it seems but I really wouldn't mind more 5 to 10 man type PvE content rather than the super large raid type encounters. Only time will tell I suppose!
I think 5-10 player PvE grouping combined with strong single player PvE a really positive factor for an MMORPG, and SW:TOR should embrace this. Large 40+ raiding games are a thing of the past, we live in the age of the immersive MMORPG. Years ago there were limitations in computing capacity so game developers made the raid dungeons simpler with as many as you wanted to bring, those days are gone. Personally I think it will be a treat.
I honestly think it is as simple as no one knows what is in store for SWTOR. why I say this is, the guilds advertising for members are using the recruitment standards set by thier previous guild requirements. its a standard for most looking for a guild to relate to this type of game play from a guild. which might give them insentive to apply and wait for the game to develop.
know one knows what is in store or how much PVE or PVP or Raiding there will be in swtor. But every guild is programed in mentality to get a jump on the "lot" of available players to hang out in a "not yet relesed mmo" vent or guild forums to build and establish a foundation as information is revealed...many of the recruitment advertisements they use will be amended or adjusted as they find things out...like raid size, guild member size, group size, raid style content, pvp content, faction allowance, class roles...etc etc.
I call it the Game before the Game
Because they're fun.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
I'm not sure the game is being designed to support that type of content but anything could change I suppose. I think a lot of the call for this type of content comes from those that really enjoy dungeon and PvE content a la WoW type raiding. Unfortunately that's what sells boxes it seems but I really wouldn't mind more 5 to 10 man type PvE content rather than the super large raid type encounters. Only time will tell I suppose!
I think 5-10 player PvE grouping combined with strong single player PvE a really positive factor for an MMORPG, and SW:TOR should embrace this. Large 40+ raiding games are a thing of the past, we live in the age of the immersive MMORPG. Years ago there were limitations in computing capacity so game developers made the raid dungeons simpler with as many as you wanted to bring, those days are gone. Personally I think it will be a treat.
As for the large scale raiding - in EQ the cap was 72 member raid group UI, but it didn’t always take 72 to defeat a boss or clear to an event, it could be done with 25-35 guildies. But the road to get there was full of camaraderie and no one was left out that wanted to attend the raid to help out.
I for one miss those large scale raids because of the guild community. The down scaling of raids now do not require a large guild/community, if Bioware goes with what many are asking for a 5-10 man raid system, then there is no need for a guild at all! So end the circle of MMO community as we once knew it, we will know the names of Gold farmers and botters more then any guildies name...imho
i think that pve raids should be there for those that want it. in 5 10 and 25 man varieties. 25 man is really the upper limit for raid sizes nowadays as anything more has proven to be really frustrating.
hopefully gear prgression won't be a focus of pve. as it is pretty lame. gear has always been a means to an end for me, and there are people who feel entitled to better gear which gives them an advantage in pvp for doing more pve. so as long as gear for both pve and pvp is both progressive and accessible i am all for it.
the main thing is keeping the focus on fun.
KERPLAH!