EDIT: Oh and btw. SOEs devs, aside from their notion to make every game the get their hands on easier, did the right thing in Vanguard, they chopped down the death penalty, because their game had so many lags, bugs and imbalances people started to rightfully complain. A lot.
That is the typical SOE way of handling things. The death penalty we had in VG back in beta was not very harsh at all, but instead of fixing the bugs and numerous issues the game had, they put a bandaid on it by removing the death penalties. The bugs still existed and many still exist today, 3 years after launch, but we should be happy about it because if you die to a bug or crappy coding/design it's no big deal right?
In fact, yes... I agree, it's just a bandaid. But it really buffers the anger when you die from one of their bad design choices or bugs...
I'm not saying "yay, fix it by killing the death penalty", but surely killing the penalty is better than keeping the status quo (bugs, bad design, lag PLUS death penalty), at least in my book.
The point of harsh death penalty is fear. Fear is an emotion that is missed by a lot of gamers because of its absence in so many games. All the reasons mentioned are valid but are they worth losing the adrenaline rush created from fear. That is really a personal view point and hence why it doesn't matter to a lot of gamers what reasons are posted.
The problem is that there are too many outside influences outside of our control that can incur a penalty without giving us an opportunity to even avoid it.
To be quite honest, the times I have played full loot drop games, I had incredibly more fear and frustration when I would randomly CTD or lag out, which would result in significantly more frustration at the game than if I were to die due to my own stupid decision. Last I checked, lagging out or crashing to desktop weren't "features" meant to enhance gameplay, yet they're there, and high death penalties can essentially punish us severely for something out of our control.
They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking. Some wouldn't be considered problems at all=) Thats the thing. TIME is just irrelevant to those who seek harsh penalties. No amount of logic will help them understand except a certain life event that suddenly switches something in their brain and convinces them that losing a few hours of playtime just isn't "worth it" anymore. Sadly many of these people will never have that switch go off, due to personal choice or apathy.
Holy self-pedestal, batman.
It's entirely possible that to some people, it's just a game - a manner in which they waste time and amuse themselves in the process. That character on their screen could just as easily be Lara Croft, Pac Man or a L80 WoW Paladin and their reaction would be the same. The game isn't a career for them, and they have no delusion of permanency or grandeur for this pixelated fictional character they move around in a video game.
Instead of insinuating psychological issues on the part of those who play games differently, you might want to try to grasp that not everyone places the same importance on games that you do... and maybe do a bit of personal evaluation yourself.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Originally posted by Josher They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking.
People who don't want death penalties are the types who don't play mmorpgs for fun and for the gameplay, they play mmorpgs to rush through the progression as quickly as possible. They play to be "leet". They play to "keep up with the Jone's".
Among the things I will never understand:
1. Why would someone buy a game and then use cheat codes to beat it?
2. Why would someone buy a mmorpg to play and then, instead of playing it, spend more money to buy someone else's account with a maxed out character?
3. Why would someone buy a game and then set it on the easiest difficulty mode so they can rush through it as quickly as possible?
4. Why would someone not want death penalties in a mmorpg?
These all stem from the same psychological need to create an illusion that they've accomplished something coupled with a dread of anything which might hurt their ego by causing them a setback. For these people it's not about playing the game it's about having the game pat them on the head and tell them how great they are, always, and never, NEVER have the game tell them that they maybe messed up a little there or could stand some improvement.
Every game that has had no or insignificant death penalties I've gotten bored of within a month to month and a half.
Every game I've played that has an actual death penalty I've played for months or years.
The OP is the type of player that wants it all, wants it all now, and doesn't want to work for it. Unfortunatly yes that is the most common form of MMO player right now.
Some of us don't find it fun that way, and it's also ridiculous to say inflict a penalty on yourself. The other thing players want is a balance playing field where everyone has the same limitations. When there is no risk at all the game has no excitement, most recently this was glaringly bad in WAR. Because there was no real penalty, when you went out to run quests you'd gather all the quests, hit the area that had the most of them close together, do all the quests, then purposely die to get back to town faster to turn it in for xp. Your leveling speed INCREASED by dying, and noticably so.
When there is no tough death penalty (no that doesn't have to mean permanent death or lose 3 levels), you always attempt dungeons that you know you likely can't complete. Why? Because the xp is higher in those tougher dungeons and if you die it doesn't matter.
But I've accepted a long time ago that MMOs have gone easy and casual and each company is going for that since it worked for WoW.
I didn't see it stated yet, but there is the idea that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
If you go into a situation where you are penalized for failing then you are less likely to fail the next time. For instance you can be in a party with some people and someone links an add. Because of it your party dies and everyone is pissed. Next time the person who links the add would be less likely to do it again because A) they didn't like dying and he has to worry about the respect of his peers.
I'll take a personal story. I was playing Final Fantasy 11 and partying and tanking as a Ninja. For those who don't know the NIN keeps hate with steady enmity control and slight mitigation. There is no real way to spike hate to turn a mob back to you quickly. Well I had a Black Mage (known for big damage really fast) in my party that was nuking big immediately before I could grab almost any. Every time he did it he died (a combination of me not being able to recover hate and my choosing to teach him a lesson). By the end of the party he stopped nuking right away and I'd hope he took the lesson to heart. His entire day was probably negative exp.
If there was no penalty involved there would be no lesson and there would be less chance of getting better. In a game like FFXI were community is very important you can't risk sucking because you are going to let your team down. If you do that enough word will spread and you will be avoided thus taking away a lot more fun than you lose by dying.
I am not saying that every time you die there is a fault or it wasn't just some random fluke mistake. I have pulled one mob that happened to be being looked at by another mob which was out of aggro range that was being looking at by a third mob that was far enough away that i could have done cartwheels and he wouldn't notice. By pulling one I pulled all three. Yes it really wasn't my mistake, it was a random fluke, and that death did suck but I will take the bad with the good.
As a result of the death penalty I rarely died in 6 years I had little over 1000 total deaths (they have a census thing every year which tells you that kinda stuff) and the majority was because of an sacrifice ability that if you use it you die and not lose exp (useful to blood warp back to home points). Honest to goodness deaths might be about 300 in 6-7 years.
Originally posted by Josher They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking.
People who don't want death penalties are the types who don't play mmorpgs for fun and for the gameplay, they play mmorpgs to rush through the progression as quickly as possible. They play to be "leet". They play to "keep up with the Jone's".
Among the things I will never understand:
1. Why would someone buy a game and then use cheat codes to beat it?
2. Why would someone buy a mmorpg to play and then, instead of playing it, spend more money to buy someone else's account with a maxed out character?
3. Why would someone buy a game and then set it on the easiest difficulty mode so they can rush through it as quickly as possible?
4. Why would someone not want death penalties in a mmorpg?
These all stem from the same psychological need to create an illusion that they've accomplished something coupled with a dread of anything which might hurt their ego by causing them a setback. For these people it's not about playing the game it's about having the game pat them on the head and tell them how great they are, always, and never, NEVER have the game tell them that they maybe messed up a little there or could stand some improvement.
You're over-analyzing the situation. You're also forgetting that most MMOs which lack a death penalty, are much harsher on gating progression. Meaning that sure death might not be a huge setback, however you're never going to advance to the top by dying because it means you fail said encounter and never get the reward. You're kidding yourself too if you truly think there is a wide gap between high and low death penalty, because in the end there's not. Even in games with high death penalties, there are many, many ways to circumvent the sting of dying, so long as you do them. In many cases though, a lot of these things can end up making the game more tedious, or bland. If you're into that, more power to you, but most players would rather be 'punished' for their mistakes, not because of a bug or lag.
I can see the OP totally misses the point of playing a RPG and really should not be playing them because it is obvious to me the OP does not like a RPG setup,so why play it?
motivation?you talk about fun then you talk about motivation,if you need to be motivated to have fun,then the problem is not the game ,end of debate.
advancement is once again secondary to having fun,if you get thrown back 500x times it does not matter,remember your OWN word used FUN??I can use a real life analogy to show why it is ridiculous to cry about failure or losing.You play on a sports team,you lose ,do you ask the rules to be changed because you don't like to lose?
You know full well what to expect when you enter,you are challenging yourself and the game,if you are entering for any other reason you are NOT playing the game..period.Back to the ADVANCEMENT part>>>>>
once again you are on that sports team,you end up middle of the pack and now have to go through several rounds of playoffs instead of advancing directly to the finals with a bye.So now what??you cry it is not fair and ask that all 4/6/ or 8 teams get a bye to the finals,it kind of defeats the purpose does it not?
I used this example because it is EXACTLY like gaming,you are there to have fun,yet challenge yourself and the game.The simplest most mature way to look at it,is there can only be one winner ,either you or the other guy or you or the NPC,it really does not matter,remember your keyword>>>FUN?
You 100% cannot EVER have a game that makes everyone win,you will always step on someone else toes,so rather than a selfish attitude"i don't like to lose"and the game should cater to ME only,you just play and remember >>>FUN!
All the rest are just moot points,bugs /lag can't figure out the mobs strength,it is all part of the game ,the same for everyone ,you are not being singled out or cheated by the game,it is fair across the board.Part of playing a RPG game is exploration and learning the game,to cry foul once again shows you do not want to play a rpg.
The reason the OP misses the point of playing games,is because it is VERY obvious when the OP mentions advancement,the OP is more worried about levels than actual FUN ! this is a trend i have seen in new wave gamers and it is ridiculous to say the least.
The OP's analogy is one that a cheater would use...i should be allowed to cheat because it is all about my advancement.Then the cheat gets banned..."you should not be allowed to ban me because ,when i am banned i am not having fun because i am not advancing" .
Before you enter a "GAME" step back and realize what the genre is and why you are REALLY playing.What i usually see is people fabricating excuses that dispute their own reasons.DO NOT use the word FUN on me ,unless you REALLY mean it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I can see the OP totally misses the point of playing a RPG and really should not be playing them because it is obvious to me the OP does not like a RPG setup,so why play it? motivation?you talk about fun then you talk about motivation,if you need to be motivated to have fun,then the problem is not the game ,end of debate. advancement is once again secondary to having fun,if you get thrown back 500x times it does not matter,remember your OWN word used FUN??I can use a real life analogy to show why it is ridiculous to cry about failure or losing.You play on a sports team,you lose ,do you ask the rules to be changed because you don't like to lose? You know full well what to expect when you enter,you are challenging yourself and the game,if you are entering for any other reason you are NOT playing the game..period.Back to the ADVANCEMENT part>>>>> once again you are on that sports team,you end up middle of the pack and now have to go through several rounds of playoffs instead of advancing directly to the finals with a bye.So now what??you cry it is not fair and ask that all 4/6/ or 8 teams get a bye to the finals,it kind of defeats the purpose does it not? I used this example because it is EXACTLY like gaming,you are there to have fun,yet challenge yourself and the game.The simplest most mature way to look at it,is there can only be one winner ,either you or the other guy or you or the NPC,it really does not matter,remember your keyword>>>FUN? You 100% cannot EVER have a game that makes everyone win,you will always step on someone else toes,so rather than a selfish attitude"i don't like to lose"and the game should cater to ME only,you just play and remember >>>FUN! All the rest are just moot points,bugs /lag can't figure out the mobs strength,it is all part of the game ,the same for everyone ,you are not being singled out or cheated by the game,it is fair across the board.Part of playing a RPG game is exploration and learning the game,to cry foul once again shows you do not want to play a rpg. The reason the OP misses the point of playing games,is because it is VERY obvious when the OP mentions advancement,the OP is more worried about levels than actual FUN ! this is a trend i have seen in new wave gamers and it is ridiculous to say the least. The OP's analogy is one that a cheater would use...i should be allowed to cheat because it is all about my advancement.Then the cheat gets banned..."you should not be allowed to ban me because ,when i am banned i am not having fun because i am not advancing" . Before you enter a "GAME" step back and realize what the genre is and why you are REALLY playing.What i usually see is people fabricating excuses that dispute their own reasons.DO NOT use the word FUN on me ,unless you REALLY mean it.
There's one major flaw in your argument.
Games with less severe death penalties don't reward failure. You do not make progression when you fail, you simply don't make negative progression when you fail. The main difference between high and low death penalties, is that high death penalties force you to go backwards and re-do even more over again to try to advance further.
Your definition of fun is different than other people's definition of fun. Low death penalties is not cheating, it's simply different. Again, there is no progression from failing on a low death penalty game. The only difference is that it is not negative progression. Negative progression is not enjoyable for most people, as evidence by the sheer popularity of the low death penalty ruleset.
Originally posted by Murashu You also forgot to add 'IMO' at the end
Without risk there can be no reward.
What risk? What reward? There is none.
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time.
What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it.
What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing?
Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking. Some wouldn't be considered problems at all=) Thats the thing. TIME is just irrelevant to those who seek harsh penalties. No amount of logic will help them understand except a certain life event that suddenly switches something in their brain and convinces them that losing a few hours of playtime just isn't "worth it" anymore. Sadly many of these people will never have that switch go off, due to personal choice or apathy.
Holy self-pedestal, batman.
It's entirely possible that to some people, it's just a game - a manner in which they waste time and amuse themselves in the process. That character on their screen could just as easily be Lara Croft, Pac Man or a L80 WoW Paladin and their reaction would be the same. The game isn't a career for them, and they have no delusion of permanency or grandeur for this pixelated fictional character they move around in a video game.
Instead of insinuating psychological issues on the part of those who play games differently, you might want to try to grasp that not everyone places the same importance on games that you do... and maybe do a bit of personal evaluation yourself.
Hit a nerve?? Yes, some people place too much importance in games. Those who need harsh punishements are NOT viewing games as just games. They're much, much more. I'm not here to change them=) Luckily they can always make the punishment in any game harsher than its original design if needed. Its always amazing that they never do.
I can see the OP totally misses the point of playing a RPG and really should not be playing them because it is obvious to me the OP does not like a RPG setup,so why play it?
motivation?you talk about fun then you talk about motivation,if you need to be motivated to have fun,then the problem is not the game ,end of debate.
advancement is once again secondary to having fun,if you get thrown back 500x times it does not matter,remember your OWN word used FUN??I can use a real life analogy to show why it is ridiculous to cry about failure or losing.You play on a sports team,you lose ,do you ask the rules to be changed because you don't like to lose?
You know full well what to expect when you enter,you are challenging yourself and the game,if you are entering for any other reason you are NOT playing the game..period.Back to the ADVANCEMENT part>>>>>
once again you are on that sports team,you end up middle of the pack and now have to go through several rounds of playoffs instead of advancing directly to the finals with a bye.So now what??you cry it is not fair and ask that all 4/6/ or 8 teams get a bye to the finals,it kind of defeats the purpose does it not?
I used this example because it is EXACTLY like gaming,you are there to have fun,yet challenge yourself and the game.The simplest most mature way to look at it,is there can only be one winner ,either you or the other guy or you or the NPC,it really does not matter,remember your keyword>>>FUN?
You 100% cannot EVER have a game that makes everyone win,you will always step on someone else toes,so rather than a selfish attitude"i don't like to lose"and the game should cater to ME only,you just play and remember >>>FUN!
All the rest are just moot points,bugs /lag can't figure out the mobs strength,it is all part of the game ,the same for everyone ,you are not being singled out or cheated by the game,it is fair across the board.Part of playing a RPG game is exploration and learning the game,to cry foul once again shows you do not want to play a rpg.
The reason the OP misses the point of playing games,is because it is VERY obvious when the OP mentions advancement,the OP is more worried about levels than actual FUN ! this is a trend i have seen in new wave gamers and it is ridiculous to say the least.
The OP's analogy is one that a cheater would use...i should be allowed to cheat because it is all about my advancement.Then the cheat gets banned..."you should not be allowed to ban me because ,when i am banned i am not having fun because i am not advancing" .
Before you enter a "GAME" step back and realize what the genre is and why you are REALLY playing.What i usually see is people fabricating excuses that dispute their own reasons.DO NOT use the word FUN on me ,unless you REALLY mean it.
----------------
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
The OP is the type of player that wants it all, wants it all now, and doesn't want to work for it. Unfortunatly yes that is the most common form of MMO player right now.
Erm, you've read my original post, right? It was about uncontrollable game-factors and how harsh death penalty combined with these can break a game experience.
And I'm a seasoned EvE player so you probably want to reevaluate what 'type of player' I am... Jesus... ^^
The main reason a death penalty would work is because.....MOST everyone want to be first. First to max level without dying, best at ect ect ect...hell almost every damn important forum post, news story has someone claiming first as a post. This is what people want, to be the first.
It would have to be a flawless system, perfect, but what game is?
What most people tend to forget is that there are people of all walks of life who play MMORPGs.
There are people who enjoy BDSM. They want a strict form of discipline and enjoy being punished harshly. They love the torture of tedious grinding and believe that if you fail you need a harsh disciplinary action for disobedience. They love the Dom/Sub aspect of grouping... I mean seriously... compare what some of the DP cheerleaders are screaming about and then compare what BDSM is all about. I'm not saying it's a bad or good thing... just bringing to light that those people follow a very similar pattern to another walk of life, and that those are in the minority, just like in MMORPG's.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
timeloss is enough death penalty? its not even carebear, its gaaay
man, i miss those time where players had balls
Playing: Rohan Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time. What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it. What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing? Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
If being part of an MMO gaming community means nothing to you, why would you play? I enjoy playing MMOs, so it does actually mean something to me. Friends I made back on launch day of EQ are still close friends of mine today. If MMOs are such a huge waste of time, why are you posting on a site dedicated to them?
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time.
What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it.
What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing?
Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
This leads nowhere. Trust me, because this argument is never taken seriously.
I think I begin to understand why though. These games are about escapism through virtual achievement. Admitting (to yourself) that you are - by seeing more in them than just a totally pointless video game - giving a game importance and therefore power over your real life, leads to the conclusion that you should instantly stop playing.
The notion so many of the core- and hardcore-players hate so much (the modern 'want it all now and don't want to do anything for it') is exactly what results in the self-understanding of 'playing a video game'
For anyone but the really dedicated players it's totally normal to expect a thoroughly rewarding and constantly fun experience when starting up a video game. Because for a regular player it's not a life simulation, it's a game that's running on a PC for the sole purpose to entertain. It's not there to challenge, fall in love, hate, suffer or work, it's there to entertain. Now!
In my opinion this is the real difference between a casual and a core/hardcore gamer.
PvP is more fun with more people. Harsh DP scares off more People.
Agreed.
Playing - Champions Online Unsure Of - Darkfall, Star Trek Online Waiting For - Star Wars: The Old Republic, All Points Bulletin Played - Age Of Conan, Everquest II, Mabinogi, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, World Of Warcraft
What most people tend to forget is that there are people of all walks of life who play MMORPGs. There are people who enjoy BDSM. They want a strict form of discipline and enjoy being punished harshly. They love the torture of tedious grinding and believe that if you fail you need a harsh disciplinary action for disobedience. They love the Dom/Sub aspect of grouping... I mean seriously... compare what some of the DP cheerleaders are screaming about and then compare what BDSM is all about. I'm not saying it's a bad or good thing... just bringing to light that those people follow a very similar pattern to another walk of life, and that those are in the minority, just like in MMORPG's.
ICD-10
Mental and behavioural disorders (F00-F99)
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour (F60-F69)
F65 - Disorders of sexual preference
F65.5 - Sadomasochism
A preference for sexual activity which involves the infliction of pain or humiliation, or bondage. If the subject prefers to be the recipient of such stimulation this is called masochism; if the provider, sadism. Often an individual obtains sexual excitement from both sadistic and masochistic activities.
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time.
What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it.
What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing?
Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
This leads nowhere. Trust me, because this argument is never taken seriously.
I think I begin to understand why though. These games are about escapism through virtual achievement. Admitting (to yourself) that you are - by seeing more in them than just a totally pointless video game - giving a game importance and therefore power over your real life, leads to the conclusion that you should instantly stop playing.
The notion so many of the core- and hardcore-players hate so much (the modern 'want it all now and don't want to do anything for it') is exactly what results in the self-understanding of 'playing a video game'
For anyone but the really dedicated players it's totally normal to expect a thoroughly rewarding and constantly fun experience when starting up a video game. Because for a regular player it's not a life simulation, it's a game that's running on a PC for the sole purpose to entertain. It's not there to challenge, fall in love, hate, suffer or work, it's there to entertain. Now!
In my opinion this is the real difference between a casual and a core/hardcore gamer.
M
That is the most cliche reasoning that all the "want it all now and don't want to work for it" people try to use, and it's never correct.
I have a full time job, a relationship, I go out and do stuff all the time, I visit family, I have hobbies that don't involve video games in any way. But when I do have time to sit down for an MMO I don't want it easy and don't want everything now, and it has absolutly nothing to do with it controlling my life, I look at it everytime and say "hey this is a video game".
What you completely miss is that for a lot of people having to figure out the game and overcome challenges in the game to get levels and gear is where the fun lies. Not in having the the levels in gear, but in the journey and challenge that it took to get there, those levels and gear are now a reminder of that.
You don't get that feeling in an MMO where it takes 3 weeks of casual game play to reach max level. You don't get that feeling in a game where along the way there was no risk in taking chances, so there was no extra enjoyment when the risk paid off without dying and getting set back a little bit. You don't get that feeling in a game that at the max level turns into a raid this same dungeon 20-30 times to get your gear and follow a scripted game play of "ok now the priest goes here, the rogue does this, then we get behind over here...".
So you can get off your ridiculous high horse about thinking because you want easy mode that means you are a more well adjusted video game player then those who want a more hardcore/challenging game. Next time try a real approach as opposed to saying basically that the people who don't share your view must have issues in real life.
They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking. Some wouldn't be considered problems at all=) Thats the thing. TIME is just irrelevant to those who seek harsh penalties. No amount of logic will help them understand except a certain life event that suddenly switches something in their brain and convinces them that losing a few hours of playtime just isn't "worth it" anymore. Sadly many of these people will never have that switch go off, due to personal choice or apathy.
Holy self-pedestal, batman.
It's entirely possible that to some people, it's just a game - a manner in which they waste time and amuse themselves in the process. That character on their screen could just as easily be Lara Croft, Pac Man or a L80 WoW Paladin and their reaction would be the same. The game isn't a career for them, and they have no delusion of permanency or grandeur for this pixelated fictional character they move around in a video game.
Instead of insinuating psychological issues on the part of those who play games differently, you might want to try to grasp that not everyone places the same importance on games that you do... and maybe do a bit of personal evaluation yourself.
Hit a nerve?? Yes, some people place too much importance in games. Those who need harsh punishements are NOT viewing games as just games. They're much, much more. I'm not here to change them=) Luckily they can always make the punishment in any game harsher than its original design if needed. Its always amazing that they never do.
You didn't hit a nerve, but your reply pointed out I was replying in the same manner as your post and I didn't mean to do that. My point was solely to indicate that you are transferring your view of how and why people play games on others. To many, they simply aren't that important and are little more than just a way to waste some time.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
What most people tend to forget is that there are people of all walks of life who play MMORPGs. There are people who enjoy BDSM. They want a strict form of discipline and enjoy being punished harshly. They love the torture of tedious grinding and believe that if you fail you need a harsh disciplinary action for disobedience. They love the Dom/Sub aspect of grouping... I mean seriously... compare what some of the DP cheerleaders are screaming about and then compare what BDSM is all about. I'm not saying it's a bad or good thing... just bringing to light that those people follow a very similar pattern to another walk of life, and that those are in the minority, just like in MMORPG's.
ICD-10
Mental and behavioural disorders (F00-F99)
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour (F60-F69)
F65 - Disorders of sexual preference
F65.5 - Sadomasochism
A preference for sexual activity which involves the infliction of pain or humiliation, or bondage. If the subject prefers to be the recipient of such stimulation this is called masochism; if the provider, sadism. Often an individual obtains sexual excitement from both sadistic and masochistic activities.
Sorry, I just had to *evil grin*
Oh dear, this is off topic in a very naught way... :P
Playing - Champions Online Unsure Of - Darkfall, Star Trek Online Waiting For - Star Wars: The Old Republic, All Points Bulletin Played - Age Of Conan, Everquest II, Mabinogi, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, World Of Warcraft
That is the most cliche reasoning that all the "want it all now and don't want to work for it" people try to use, and it's never correct.
I have a full time job, a relationship, I go out and do stuff all the time, I visit family, I have hobbies that don't involve video games in any way. But when I do have time to sit down for an MMO I don't want it easy and don't want everything now, and it has absolutly nothing to do with it controlling my life, I look at it everytime and say "hey this is a video game".
What you completely miss is that for a lot of people having to figure out the game and overcome challenges in the game to get levels and gear is where the fun lies. Not in having the the levels in gear, but in the journey and challenge that it took to get there, those levels and gear are now a reminder of that.
You don't get that feeling in an MMO where it takes 3 weeks of casual game play to reach max level. You don't get that feeling in a game where along the way there was no risk in taking chances, so there was no extra enjoyment when the risk paid off without dying and getting set back a little bit. You don't get that feeling in a game that at the max level turns into a raid this same dungeon 20-30 times to get your gear and follow a scripted game play of "ok now the priest goes here, the rogue does this, then we get behind over here...".
So you can get off your ridiculous high horse about thinking because you want easy mode that means you are a more well adjusted video game player then those who want a more hardcore/challenging game. Next time try a real approach as opposed to saying basically that the people who don't share your view must have issues in real life.
Yea well, it's not about how much time you spend or how weak your social network is.
It's also not about excitement and achievement.
It's about how you perceive your game experience. See, I play EvE, and as you might now, the death penalty is pretty harsh there and your corp has to invest planning and coordination if it (and you) wants to get anywhere.
Now the point is. In a good game, like EvE, with very few uncontrollable factors, very few crashes, design flaws etc. you die when you screw up, you win when you planned smart.
In a bad game, like the elderly Vanguard, you die from adds you couldn't see coming, invisible spawns, lagspikes, bugs, and sometimes, but in the minority of cases, when you screw up.
Now in both cases you died, right? But in EvE the game never stopped being fun. The emotion you have gone through while fighting, your team that gave its best but just wasn't good enough, all that was fun. You were in control but you failed. Fine, that's the name of the game.
While in Vanguard (just as an example), you planned, bought your stuff, you tried really hard, you didn't make a mistake, the game just chose to kick you in the nuts, just because it can.
Get the difference?
And that's all I'm saying, to 'normal' people a game has to be fun all the time, which is perfectly in tune with harsh death penalties or challenges, in _well-made_ games!
Its such a subjective thing, everyone has their own threshold of pain they are willing to tolerate. I recall playing L2 when it first came out, and it was possible to drop one of your equipped items if you died to an NPC. Since gear in L2 was very expensive and hard to obtain, dropping an amulet worth 2M or horrors, your main weapon worth 10M really added some thrill to the game as you frantically ran back to your gravesite hoping someone else didn't loot you first. But the thrill wasn't pleasant for me, so combined with the game's grind I decided to move on. Others stayed and enjoyed it however. I now play EVE, and when I die to either players or NPCs, my ships are destroyed, along with most of the contents and modules. Yet I don't find this to be a problem, I guess because replacing them isn't a problem for me, and I don't mind the time I 'lost" earning the ISK to pay for them in the first place, all part of the game. So I definiely don't care for games where death has zero meaning, I like a small monetary penalty like Aion has (or DAOC had) with some sort of time penalty, not as crazy about experience loss, or worse yet, deleveling like used to happen in Lineage 1.
Deleveling also exists in Lineage 2. And all those things you pointed out about Lineage 2 are one of the main reasons I like the game so much and haven't been able to find a suitable replacement for it yet. Guess I'm one of those who enjoyed it
But it was a bit more "hardcore" in those old days of which you speak, it's got a bit "softer" as the years went by.
But to keep on topic... no death penalty is fine if you're a wimp! They're already making games with penalties that are so irrelevant or so easy to get rid of that I even wonder why they exist at all...
If you don't want a penalty for dying go play some solo game in god mode or something like that *geez*
TU2 Closed Beta Testing... looking very good so far
Comments
That is the typical SOE way of handling things. The death penalty we had in VG back in beta was not very harsh at all, but instead of fixing the bugs and numerous issues the game had, they put a bandaid on it by removing the death penalties. The bugs still existed and many still exist today, 3 years after launch, but we should be happy about it because if you die to a bug or crappy coding/design it's no big deal right?
In fact, yes... I agree, it's just a bandaid. But it really buffers the anger when you die from one of their bad design choices or bugs...
I'm not saying "yay, fix it by killing the death penalty", but surely killing the penalty is better than keeping the status quo (bugs, bad design, lag PLUS death penalty), at least in my book.
M
The problem is that there are too many outside influences outside of our control that can incur a penalty without giving us an opportunity to even avoid it.
To be quite honest, the times I have played full loot drop games, I had incredibly more fear and frustration when I would randomly CTD or lag out, which would result in significantly more frustration at the game than if I were to die due to my own stupid decision. Last I checked, lagging out or crashing to desktop weren't "features" meant to enhance gameplay, yet they're there, and high death penalties can essentially punish us severely for something out of our control.
Holy self-pedestal, batman.
It's entirely possible that to some people, it's just a game - a manner in which they waste time and amuse themselves in the process. That character on their screen could just as easily be Lara Croft, Pac Man or a L80 WoW Paladin and their reaction would be the same. The game isn't a career for them, and they have no delusion of permanency or grandeur for this pixelated fictional character they move around in a video game.
Instead of insinuating psychological issues on the part of those who play games differently, you might want to try to grasp that not everyone places the same importance on games that you do... and maybe do a bit of personal evaluation yourself.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
People who don't want death penalties are the types who don't play mmorpgs for fun and for the gameplay, they play mmorpgs to rush through the progression as quickly as possible. They play to be "leet". They play to "keep up with the Jone's".
Among the things I will never understand:
1. Why would someone buy a game and then use cheat codes to beat it?
2. Why would someone buy a mmorpg to play and then, instead of playing it, spend more money to buy someone else's account with a maxed out character?
3. Why would someone buy a game and then set it on the easiest difficulty mode so they can rush through it as quickly as possible?
4. Why would someone not want death penalties in a mmorpg?
These all stem from the same psychological need to create an illusion that they've accomplished something coupled with a dread of anything which might hurt their ego by causing them a setback. For these people it's not about playing the game it's about having the game pat them on the head and tell them how great they are, always, and never, NEVER have the game tell them that they maybe messed up a little there or could stand some improvement.
Every game that has had no or insignificant death penalties I've gotten bored of within a month to month and a half.
Every game I've played that has an actual death penalty I've played for months or years.
The OP is the type of player that wants it all, wants it all now, and doesn't want to work for it. Unfortunatly yes that is the most common form of MMO player right now.
Some of us don't find it fun that way, and it's also ridiculous to say inflict a penalty on yourself. The other thing players want is a balance playing field where everyone has the same limitations. When there is no risk at all the game has no excitement, most recently this was glaringly bad in WAR. Because there was no real penalty, when you went out to run quests you'd gather all the quests, hit the area that had the most of them close together, do all the quests, then purposely die to get back to town faster to turn it in for xp. Your leveling speed INCREASED by dying, and noticably so.
When there is no tough death penalty (no that doesn't have to mean permanent death or lose 3 levels), you always attempt dungeons that you know you likely can't complete. Why? Because the xp is higher in those tougher dungeons and if you die it doesn't matter.
But I've accepted a long time ago that MMOs have gone easy and casual and each company is going for that since it worked for WoW.
I didn't see it stated yet, but there is the idea that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
If you go into a situation where you are penalized for failing then you are less likely to fail the next time. For instance you can be in a party with some people and someone links an add. Because of it your party dies and everyone is pissed. Next time the person who links the add would be less likely to do it again because A) they didn't like dying and
he has to worry about the respect of his peers.
I'll take a personal story. I was playing Final Fantasy 11 and partying and tanking as a Ninja. For those who don't know the NIN keeps hate with steady enmity control and slight mitigation. There is no real way to spike hate to turn a mob back to you quickly. Well I had a Black Mage (known for big damage really fast) in my party that was nuking big immediately before I could grab almost any. Every time he did it he died (a combination of me not being able to recover hate and my choosing to teach him a lesson). By the end of the party he stopped nuking right away and I'd hope he took the lesson to heart. His entire day was probably negative exp.
If there was no penalty involved there would be no lesson and there would be less chance of getting better. In a game like FFXI were community is very important you can't risk sucking because you are going to let your team down. If you do that enough word will spread and you will be avoided thus taking away a lot more fun than you lose by dying.
I am not saying that every time you die there is a fault or it wasn't just some random fluke mistake. I have pulled one mob that happened to be being looked at by another mob which was out of aggro range that was being looking at by a third mob that was far enough away that i could have done cartwheels and he wouldn't notice. By pulling one I pulled all three. Yes it really wasn't my mistake, it was a random fluke, and that death did suck but I will take the bad with the good.
As a result of the death penalty I rarely died in 6 years I had little over 1000 total deaths (they have a census thing every year which tells you that kinda stuff) and the majority was because of an sacrifice ability that if you use it you die and not lose exp (useful to blood warp back to home points). Honest to goodness deaths might be about 300 in 6-7 years.
People who don't want death penalties are the types who don't play mmorpgs for fun and for the gameplay, they play mmorpgs to rush through the progression as quickly as possible. They play to be "leet". They play to "keep up with the Jone's".
Among the things I will never understand:
1. Why would someone buy a game and then use cheat codes to beat it?
2. Why would someone buy a mmorpg to play and then, instead of playing it, spend more money to buy someone else's account with a maxed out character?
3. Why would someone buy a game and then set it on the easiest difficulty mode so they can rush through it as quickly as possible?
4. Why would someone not want death penalties in a mmorpg?
These all stem from the same psychological need to create an illusion that they've accomplished something coupled with a dread of anything which might hurt their ego by causing them a setback. For these people it's not about playing the game it's about having the game pat them on the head and tell them how great they are, always, and never, NEVER have the game tell them that they maybe messed up a little there or could stand some improvement.
You're over-analyzing the situation. You're also forgetting that most MMOs which lack a death penalty, are much harsher on gating progression. Meaning that sure death might not be a huge setback, however you're never going to advance to the top by dying because it means you fail said encounter and never get the reward. You're kidding yourself too if you truly think there is a wide gap between high and low death penalty, because in the end there's not. Even in games with high death penalties, there are many, many ways to circumvent the sting of dying, so long as you do them. In many cases though, a lot of these things can end up making the game more tedious, or bland. If you're into that, more power to you, but most players would rather be 'punished' for their mistakes, not because of a bug or lag.
I can see the OP totally misses the point of playing a RPG and really should not be playing them because it is obvious to me the OP does not like a RPG setup,so why play it?
motivation?you talk about fun then you talk about motivation,if you need to be motivated to have fun,then the problem is not the game ,end of debate.
advancement is once again secondary to having fun,if you get thrown back 500x times it does not matter,remember your OWN word used FUN??I can use a real life analogy to show why it is ridiculous to cry about failure or losing.You play on a sports team,you lose ,do you ask the rules to be changed because you don't like to lose?
You know full well what to expect when you enter,you are challenging yourself and the game,if you are entering for any other reason you are NOT playing the game..period.Back to the ADVANCEMENT part>>>>>
once again you are on that sports team,you end up middle of the pack and now have to go through several rounds of playoffs instead of advancing directly to the finals with a bye.So now what??you cry it is not fair and ask that all 4/6/ or 8 teams get a bye to the finals,it kind of defeats the purpose does it not?
I used this example because it is EXACTLY like gaming,you are there to have fun,yet challenge yourself and the game.The simplest most mature way to look at it,is there can only be one winner ,either you or the other guy or you or the NPC,it really does not matter,remember your keyword>>>FUN?
You 100% cannot EVER have a game that makes everyone win,you will always step on someone else toes,so rather than a selfish attitude"i don't like to lose"and the game should cater to ME only,you just play and remember >>>FUN!
All the rest are just moot points,bugs /lag can't figure out the mobs strength,it is all part of the game ,the same for everyone ,you are not being singled out or cheated by the game,it is fair across the board.Part of playing a RPG game is exploration and learning the game,to cry foul once again shows you do not want to play a rpg.
The reason the OP misses the point of playing games,is because it is VERY obvious when the OP mentions advancement,the OP is more worried about levels than actual FUN ! this is a trend i have seen in new wave gamers and it is ridiculous to say the least.
The OP's analogy is one that a cheater would use...i should be allowed to cheat because it is all about my advancement.Then the cheat gets banned..."you should not be allowed to ban me because ,when i am banned i am not having fun because i am not advancing" .
Before you enter a "GAME" step back and realize what the genre is and why you are REALLY playing.What i usually see is people fabricating excuses that dispute their own reasons.DO NOT use the word FUN on me ,unless you REALLY mean it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There's one major flaw in your argument.
Games with less severe death penalties don't reward failure. You do not make progression when you fail, you simply don't make negative progression when you fail. The main difference between high and low death penalties, is that high death penalties force you to go backwards and re-do even more over again to try to advance further.
Your definition of fun is different than other people's definition of fun. Low death penalties is not cheating, it's simply different. Again, there is no progression from failing on a low death penalty game. The only difference is that it is not negative progression. Negative progression is not enjoyable for most people, as evidence by the sheer popularity of the low death penalty ruleset.
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time.
What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it.
What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing?
Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
Holy self-pedestal, batman.
It's entirely possible that to some people, it's just a game - a manner in which they waste time and amuse themselves in the process. That character on their screen could just as easily be Lara Croft, Pac Man or a L80 WoW Paladin and their reaction would be the same. The game isn't a career for them, and they have no delusion of permanency or grandeur for this pixelated fictional character they move around in a video game.
Instead of insinuating psychological issues on the part of those who play games differently, you might want to try to grasp that not everyone places the same importance on games that you do... and maybe do a bit of personal evaluation yourself.
Hit a nerve??
Yes, some people place too much importance in games. Those who need harsh punishements are NOT viewing games as just games. They're much, much more. I'm not here to change them=) Luckily they can always make the punishment in any game harsher than its original design if needed. Its always amazing that they never do.
The main reason a death penalty would work is because.....MOST everyone want to be first. First to max level without dying, best at ect ect ect...hell almost every damn important forum post, news story has someone claiming first as a post. This is what people want, to be the first.
It would have to be a flawless system, perfect, but what game is?
What most people tend to forget is that there are people of all walks of life who play MMORPGs.
There are people who enjoy BDSM. They want a strict form of discipline and enjoy being punished harshly. They love the torture of tedious grinding and believe that if you fail you need a harsh disciplinary action for disobedience. They love the Dom/Sub aspect of grouping... I mean seriously... compare what some of the DP cheerleaders are screaming about and then compare what BDSM is all about. I'm not saying it's a bad or good thing... just bringing to light that those people follow a very similar pattern to another walk of life, and that those are in the minority, just like in MMORPG's.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
omg you people are so weak nowadays
timeloss is enough death penalty? its not even carebear, its gaaay
man, i miss those time where players had balls
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
If being part of an MMO gaming community means nothing to you, why would you play? I enjoy playing MMOs, so it does actually mean something to me. Friends I made back on launch day of EQ are still close friends of mine today. If MMOs are such a huge waste of time, why are you posting on a site dedicated to them?
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time.
What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it.
What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing?
Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
This leads nowhere. Trust me, because this argument is never taken seriously.
I think I begin to understand why though. These games are about escapism through virtual achievement. Admitting (to yourself) that you are - by seeing more in them than just a totally pointless video game - giving a game importance and therefore power over your real life, leads to the conclusion that you should instantly stop playing.
The notion so many of the core- and hardcore-players hate so much (the modern 'want it all now and don't want to do anything for it') is exactly what results in the self-understanding of 'playing a video game'
For anyone but the really dedicated players it's totally normal to expect a thoroughly rewarding and constantly fun experience when starting up a video game. Because for a regular player it's not a life simulation, it's a game that's running on a PC for the sole purpose to entertain. It's not there to challenge, fall in love, hate, suffer or work, it's there to entertain. Now!
In my opinion this is the real difference between a casual and a core/hardcore gamer.
M
Disagree. Fun is a reward.
PvP is more fun with more people. Harsh DP scares off more People.
Agreed.
Playing - Champions Online
Unsure Of - Darkfall, Star Trek Online
Waiting For - Star Wars: The Old Republic, All Points Bulletin
Played - Age Of Conan, Everquest II, Mabinogi, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, World Of Warcraft
ICD-10
Mental and behavioural disorders (F00-F99)
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour (F60-F69)
F65 - Disorders of sexual preference
F65.5 - Sadomasochism
A preference for sexual activity which involves the infliction of pain or humiliation, or bondage. If the subject prefers to be the recipient of such stimulation this is called masochism; if the provider, sadism. Often an individual obtains sexual excitement from both sadistic and masochistic activities.
Sorry, I just had to *evil grin*
You may not realise this yet but MMORPGs are just video games. They are simply meant for entertainment and to waste time.
What do you risk losing in a video game? Time? Well, I guess to people with all the time in the world to waste they can afford to risk it.
What is your reward in a video game? I mean, really, what? Items that dont really exist? Stats that mean nothing?
Actually wanting to waste time regaining what you lost because you died while playing to waste time is just insane. Its like a black hole of wasting time.
This leads nowhere. Trust me, because this argument is never taken seriously.
I think I begin to understand why though. These games are about escapism through virtual achievement. Admitting (to yourself) that you are - by seeing more in them than just a totally pointless video game - giving a game importance and therefore power over your real life, leads to the conclusion that you should instantly stop playing.
The notion so many of the core- and hardcore-players hate so much (the modern 'want it all now and don't want to do anything for it') is exactly what results in the self-understanding of 'playing a video game'
For anyone but the really dedicated players it's totally normal to expect a thoroughly rewarding and constantly fun experience when starting up a video game. Because for a regular player it's not a life simulation, it's a game that's running on a PC for the sole purpose to entertain. It's not there to challenge, fall in love, hate, suffer or work, it's there to entertain. Now!
In my opinion this is the real difference between a casual and a core/hardcore gamer.
M
That is the most cliche reasoning that all the "want it all now and don't want to work for it" people try to use, and it's never correct.
I have a full time job, a relationship, I go out and do stuff all the time, I visit family, I have hobbies that don't involve video games in any way. But when I do have time to sit down for an MMO I don't want it easy and don't want everything now, and it has absolutly nothing to do with it controlling my life, I look at it everytime and say "hey this is a video game".
What you completely miss is that for a lot of people having to figure out the game and overcome challenges in the game to get levels and gear is where the fun lies. Not in having the the levels in gear, but in the journey and challenge that it took to get there, those levels and gear are now a reminder of that.
You don't get that feeling in an MMO where it takes 3 weeks of casual game play to reach max level. You don't get that feeling in a game where along the way there was no risk in taking chances, so there was no extra enjoyment when the risk paid off without dying and getting set back a little bit. You don't get that feeling in a game that at the max level turns into a raid this same dungeon 20-30 times to get your gear and follow a scripted game play of "ok now the priest goes here, the rogue does this, then we get behind over here...".
So you can get off your ridiculous high horse about thinking because you want easy mode that means you are a more well adjusted video game player then those who want a more hardcore/challenging game. Next time try a real approach as opposed to saying basically that the people who don't share your view must have issues in real life.
Holy self-pedestal, batman.
It's entirely possible that to some people, it's just a game - a manner in which they waste time and amuse themselves in the process. That character on their screen could just as easily be Lara Croft, Pac Man or a L80 WoW Paladin and their reaction would be the same. The game isn't a career for them, and they have no delusion of permanency or grandeur for this pixelated fictional character they move around in a video game.
Instead of insinuating psychological issues on the part of those who play games differently, you might want to try to grasp that not everyone places the same importance on games that you do... and maybe do a bit of personal evaluation yourself.
Hit a nerve??
Yes, some people place too much importance in games. Those who need harsh punishements are NOT viewing games as just games. They're much, much more. I'm not here to change them=) Luckily they can always make the punishment in any game harsher than its original design if needed. Its always amazing that they never do.
You didn't hit a nerve, but your reply pointed out I was replying in the same manner as your post and I didn't mean to do that. My point was solely to indicate that you are transferring your view of how and why people play games on others. To many, they simply aren't that important and are little more than just a way to waste some time.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
ICD-10
Mental and behavioural disorders (F00-F99)
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour (F60-F69)
F65 - Disorders of sexual preference
F65.5 - Sadomasochism
A preference for sexual activity which involves the infliction of pain or humiliation, or bondage. If the subject prefers to be the recipient of such stimulation this is called masochism; if the provider, sadism. Often an individual obtains sexual excitement from both sadistic and masochistic activities.
Sorry, I just had to *evil grin*
Oh dear, this is off topic in a very naught way... :P
Playing - Champions Online
Unsure Of - Darkfall, Star Trek Online
Waiting For - Star Wars: The Old Republic, All Points Bulletin
Played - Age Of Conan, Everquest II, Mabinogi, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, World Of Warcraft
Harsh death penalty devastated Vanguard.
Vanguard was so buggy that you'd usually die to a bug or lag and the harsh death penalty you got for doing nothing wrong seemed unfair.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I have a full time job, a relationship, I go out and do stuff all the time, I visit family, I have hobbies that don't involve video games in any way. But when I do have time to sit down for an MMO I don't want it easy and don't want everything now, and it has absolutly nothing to do with it controlling my life, I look at it everytime and say "hey this is a video game".
What you completely miss is that for a lot of people having to figure out the game and overcome challenges in the game to get levels and gear is where the fun lies. Not in having the the levels in gear, but in the journey and challenge that it took to get there, those levels and gear are now a reminder of that.
You don't get that feeling in an MMO where it takes 3 weeks of casual game play to reach max level. You don't get that feeling in a game where along the way there was no risk in taking chances, so there was no extra enjoyment when the risk paid off without dying and getting set back a little bit. You don't get that feeling in a game that at the max level turns into a raid this same dungeon 20-30 times to get your gear and follow a scripted game play of "ok now the priest goes here, the rogue does this, then we get behind over here...".
So you can get off your ridiculous high horse about thinking because you want easy mode that means you are a more well adjusted video game player then those who want a more hardcore/challenging game. Next time try a real approach as opposed to saying basically that the people who don't share your view must have issues in real life.
Yea well, it's not about how much time you spend or how weak your social network is.
It's also not about excitement and achievement.
It's about how you perceive your game experience. See, I play EvE, and as you might now, the death penalty is pretty harsh there and your corp has to invest planning and coordination if it (and you) wants to get anywhere.
Now the point is. In a good game, like EvE, with very few uncontrollable factors, very few crashes, design flaws etc. you die when you screw up, you win when you planned smart.
In a bad game, like the elderly Vanguard, you die from adds you couldn't see coming, invisible spawns, lagspikes, bugs, and sometimes, but in the minority of cases, when you screw up.
Now in both cases you died, right? But in EvE the game never stopped being fun. The emotion you have gone through while fighting, your team that gave its best but just wasn't good enough, all that was fun. You were in control but you failed. Fine, that's the name of the game.
While in Vanguard (just as an example), you planned, bought your stuff, you tried really hard, you didn't make a mistake, the game just chose to kick you in the nuts, just because it can.
Get the difference?
And that's all I'm saying, to 'normal' people a game has to be fun all the time, which is perfectly in tune with harsh death penalties or challenges, in _well-made_ games!
M
Deleveling also exists in Lineage 2. And all those things you pointed out about Lineage 2 are one of the main reasons I like the game so much and haven't been able to find a suitable replacement for it yet. Guess I'm one of those who enjoyed it
But it was a bit more "hardcore" in those old days of which you speak, it's got a bit "softer" as the years went by.
But to keep on topic... no death penalty is fine if you're a wimp! They're already making games with penalties that are so irrelevant or so easy to get rid of that I even wonder why they exist at all...
If you don't want a penalty for dying go play some solo game in god mode or something like that *geez*
TU2 Closed Beta Testing... looking very good so far