This is too much ado about nothing. 3 character slots are same as in EVE and lack of specializing all skills on one character is a good move in right direction. if according to players this is what constitutes bad business practise, they are most welcome to take their money somewhere else. Every company has its own version of carrot on the stick. its upon customers if they want to run after that carrot or not. Crytpic is not the first or last company which is doing something like this.
Eve's advancement model is drastically different. One could argue(and be mostly correct) that Eve supports only a single character per account, and that the other characters slots are used merely for extracurricular activities.
A sandbox games with unlimited skill sets per character vs a themepark game with specific skillsets per character is an entirely different ballgame when it comes to character slots.
The game will be better when it becomes Free 2 Play with a cash shop. At least then it will be kinda like Guild Wars. Extra Character slots $9.95, etc. etc. Even if it's free I don't think I'll play for long, I don't play Guild Wars anymore either.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Yes, you can blame a company for being greedy, especially given the current state of the economy. Precedents have already been set within the industry. If you break precedent and charge for something that is no longer the norm... its greedy. Fact is, this is a P2P game. I haven't paid for an additional character slot in a P2P game since I played GemstoneIV... which is a mud.
What precedents are you talking about? you mean giving people only three character slots? what norms did Atari break here (since they are the one to make all decisions)? i would really like to know because people are way too overreacting here.
Charging for additional character slots. The only AAA MMO(in recent history) I can think of off the top of my head that charged for additional character slots is Guild Wars... which doesn't carry a monthly charge.
This is too much ado about nothing. 3 character slots are same as in EVE and lack of specializing all skills on one character is a good move in right direction. if according to players this is what constitutes bad business practise, they are most welcome to take their money somewhere else. Every company has its own version of carrot on the stick. its upon customers if they want to run after that carrot or not. Crytpic is not the first or last company which is doing something like this.
Eve's advancement model is drastically different. One could argue(and be mostly correct) that Eve supports only a single character per account, and that the other characters slots are used merely for extracurricular activities.
A sandbox games with unlimited skill sets per character vs a themepark game with specific skillsets per character is an entirely different ballgame when it comes to character slots.
yeah but since when a precedent was set that anything less then 6 character slot is breaking some rule set in stone? i am all about more character slots but it would be silly to accuse a company for scaming people just by offering less character slots.
This is too much ado about nothing. 3 character slots are same as in EVE and lack of specializing all skills on one character is a good move in right direction. if according to players this is what constitutes bad business practise, they are most welcome to take their money somewhere else. Every company has its own version of carrot on the stick. its upon customers if they want to run after that carrot or not. Crytpic is not the first or last company which is doing something like this.
Eve's advancement model is drastically different. One could argue(and be mostly correct) that Eve supports only a single character per account, and that the other characters slots are used merely for extracurricular activities.
A sandbox games with unlimited skill sets per character vs a themepark game with specific skillsets per character is an entirely different ballgame when it comes to character slots.
yeah but since when a precedent was set that anything less then 6 character slot is breaking some rule set in stone? i am all about more character slots but it would be silly to accuse a company for scaming people just by offering less character slots.
That's why we aren't just arguing that. They also charge a monthly fee, have poorly worded skills that don't help people make good decisions, a skill cap, and charge for respecs. One can also expect to see visual stuff that should just be part of the game (since it has a monthly fee) being charged for among other things in the cash shop.
I think something like 95% of the people on this forum gave this game a rating of B or less (and the vast majority still voted a C or less). What justifies this game charging more than any other MMO out there? Answer: Nothing.
The fact that they built the 'once you played beta no refund' into things speaks volumes tbh. They are basically saying, yeah we know you are gonna cancel as soon as you see it... If they were confident of their game and what it offers then this wouldnt be in.
Do you really believe this? This is akin to complaining that department stores don't allow you to take home the merchandise before paying for it. While I usually consider myself a trusting person I'd think it would take a fool to not expect a million people to drop the five dollar deposit just to test out the game and complain then cancel the pre order. While I agree that some of Cryptics money making tactics are bush league this is just smart business. And I say this simply from listening to all the clowns in the beta already that don't even play the game, are just there to as one player put it do "everything in my power to make sure Cryptic fails.
Look at it this way if no one pre ordered this policy would be worthless because Cryptic would have to issue beta keys anyway (like they did with me I played both closed and open beta and have not pre ordered yet though I plan to this week from Amazon).
While this particular policy isn't surprising I don't think it means all that you are making it out to it's just smart business.
Yes I do, and no it isnt.
If you want to use dodgy irrelevant analogies (which I hate because it always just becomes a argument about whether the analogy is correct or not, rather then the point at hand), It would be closer to a dep store charging me for trying on a shirt in their changing rooms, insisting I pay for it once I found that it dosent fit or the workmanship was crap.
Funny how 'smart business' always seems to involve ripping the consumer off.
Well done though for arguing for POOR product and LESS consumer rights at the same time.
Cryptic are beyond greedy imo... they make SOE look like a charity.
When you own your own personal business and do not pull all the strings to make profit please come back and share your wisdom with us. No one has gun on your head if you want to buy its your choice if not shut the hell up. Cryptic didn't come barging into your home and ask for your money.
I have heard this bullcrap so many times before whether its Mcdonald or Microsoft. Guess what? its business, they are here to make money.
You dont get it. One last go to explain...
Proft is fine. PROFITEERING isnt. There is a difference, and any reasonably intelligent adult knows it.
Wake up.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Im assuming you have not graduated college yet and not taken any business courses to know better. Yes a company needs to make profit somehow of course everyone knows that but what the poster is trying to tell you which your obviously ignoring is that you do it without hurting your customers or ruining your companies reputation. I might as well go into examples to explain this.
Example supermarkets. You have some that offer good deals say buy one get one free products like buy one get one free chips and good deals then you have another market that offers the same chips but its not buy one get one free and it costs more money. Which market are you gonna be shopping at? What the the poster you quoted is trying to tell you is that there is competition out there and doing greedy tactics like charging an arm and a leg for something is going to push people further away to the other direction towards another mmo.
In the example of star trek online yes all mmos charge 15 dollars a month and box price but currently there are none that charge for extra slots or skill change through RMT. Im not gonna disagree with you that its their free right to do it because they can do whatever they like but what they are doing is what the original poster is telling you. They are robbing people out of their money. Then again im not surprised they are cheating people out of their money you already have so many people that dished out 240+ dollars for lifetime sub without even knowing the end game.
Bottom line is that there is a difference between competing with other companies and making a profit by charging customers money and milking your customers for everything they are worth. Big difference here if you don't understand it or see it well then I give up I don't know what to tell you.
I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....
The question is how are they gonna screw you next? They have limited char slots to make you pay for more. They offered a lifetime sub with no discount for 16 months and if you want to play borg you have to pay the lifetime fee. So whats next? Unique ships that you pay for? Skilled deck officers you pay for? I guarantee you they will find more ways to make you pay. The fact they are launching the game in its current state with big patches coming out just a couple weeks before live shows they are more interested in money then a good final product. Enjoy your game folks, it wont last ong.
The fact that they built the 'once you played beta no refund' into things speaks volumes tbh. They are basically saying, yeah we know you are gonna cancel as soon as you see it... If they were confident of their game and what it offers then this wouldnt be in.
Do you really believe this? This is akin to complaining that department stores don't allow you to take home the merchandise before paying for it. While I usually consider myself a trusting person I'd think it would take a fool to not expect a million people to drop the five dollar deposit just to test out the game and complain then cancel the pre order. While I agree that some of Cryptics money making tactics are bush league this is just smart business. And I say this simply from listening to all the clowns in the beta already that don't even play the game, are just there to as one player put it do "everything in my power to make sure Cryptic fails.
Look at it this way if no one pre ordered this policy would be worthless because Cryptic would have to issue beta keys anyway (like they did with me I played both closed and open beta and have not pre ordered yet though I plan to this week from Amazon).
While this particular policy isn't surprising I don't think it means all that you are making it out to it's just smart business.
Yes I do, and no it isnt.
If you want to use dodgy irrelevant analogies (which I hate because it always just becomes a argument about whether the analogy is correct or not, rather then the point at hand), It would be closer to a dep store charging me for trying on a shirt in their changing rooms, insisting I pay for it once I found that it dosent fit or the workmanship was crap.
Funny how 'smart business' always seems to involve ripping the consumer off.
Well done though for arguing for POOR product and LESS consumer rights at the same time.
Cryptic are beyond greedy imo... they make SOE look like a charity.
When you own your own personal business and do not pull all the strings to make profit please come back and share your wisdom with us. No one has gun on your head if you want to buy its your choice if not shut the hell up. Cryptic didn't come barging into your home and ask for your money.
I have heard this bullcrap so many times before whether its Mcdonald or Microsoft. Guess what? its business, they are here to make money.
You dont get it. One last go to explain...
Proft is fine. PROFITEERING isnt. There is a difference, and any reasonably intelligent adult knows it.
Wake up.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Im assuming you have not graduated college yet and not taken any business courses to know better. Yes a company needs to make profit somehow of course everyone knows that but what the poster is trying to tell you which your obviously ignoring is that you do it without hurting your customers or ruining your companies reputation. I might as well go into examples to explain this.
Example supermarkets. You have some that offer good deals say buy one get one free products like buy one get one free chips and good deals then you have another market that offers the same chips but its not buy one get one free and it costs more money. Which market are you gonna be shopping at? What the the poster you quoted is trying to tell you is that there is competition out there and doing greedy tactics like charging an arm and a leg for something is going to push people further away to the other direction towards another mmo.
In the example of star trek online yes all mmos charge 15 dollars a month and box price but currently there are none that charge for extra slots or skill change through RMT. Im not gonna disagree with you that its their free right to do it because they can do whatever they like but what they are doing is what the original poster is telling you. They are robbing people out of their money. Then again im not surprised they are cheating people out of their money you already have so many people that dished out 240+ dollars for lifetime sub without even knowing the end game.
Bottom line is that there is a difference between competing with other companies and making a profit by charging customers money and milking your customers for everything they are worth. Big difference here if you don't understand it or see it well then I give up I don't know what to tell you.
You really think i have to join business college in order to understand that? you are talking from ethical and moral point of view and not statistics. Unless, anyone has inside information on how business companies are run and have their full profit and loss data to consider how much profit they are making, i suggest you all need to shut it. They are not robbing anyone because they are not forcing anyone. Its customers choice where to spend money.
You are such an over sensitive drama queen. Cryptic is not knocking on your door buddy, so stop using sentences like 'robbing people out of money'.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued.
It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic.
If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing.
Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
I would cancel mine but I can not now that I used the Beta key. I will play the 30 days free (I hear there are changed with the released version) and I will see how that goes.
I take it you went download version? You haven't gotten your retail product yet...you should be able to cancel if you want to. Your card shouldn't even be billed until it ships. Call your CC company for a chargeback if whoever you ordered from refuses a refund.
I'm a huge Trek geek. I haven't cancelled yet, but am heavily leaning that way, and I know there are many people in the same boat.
No he really can't get his money back it is part of the beta agreement. Says something along the lines of once you use the beta key you are obligated to pay for the game.
That's Correct, I already used the Beta Key they gave me. It is okay, maybe they will make all sorts of improvements to the game sometime. A least I will already have it. For one i know the interface is supposed to change for the actual release
I am in the same boat. I would cancell my preorder if I could but I can't. The game is fun and all but I don't want to support Cryptic since they steal us Canadian for no reason.
One reason NOT to go download version I guess, but what do you have to lose by calling your CC company? Of course no company wants to give you your money back, but if make enough of a stink about something, you'd be surprised what can happen.
Sad part is by having this policy of no refunds/ credits on digital download, D2D has basically let STO destroy the digital download business.
I am in the same boat tried to just get a store credit for the game and they refused. I use to buy a lot of digital downloads, but I will never purchase a digital download ever again from anyone and I'm not alone. I've spoken to many others in STO that feel the same way like we are being robbed/lied to.
So when I ordered Mass Effect 2, and GW2 yesterday I ordered hard copies from gamestop, something I havent done in 3 years.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/880 << especially after this!! I really don't understand Cryptic either. They continue to shoot themselves in the feet and actually make companies like SOE and EA look good. Boggles my mind.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/880 << especially after this!! I really don't understand Cryptic either. They continue to shoot themselves in the feet and actually make companies like SOE and EA look good. Boggles my mind.
I don't think ANY company can make SOE look good.
That may be true but I must say Cryptic seems to be trying very hard to find out.
The fact that they built the 'once you played beta no refund' into things speaks volumes tbh. They are basically saying, yeah we know you are gonna cancel as soon as you see it... If they were confident of their game and what it offers then this wouldnt be in.
Do you really believe this? This is akin to complaining that department stores don't allow you to take home the merchandise before paying for it. While I usually consider myself a trusting person I'd think it would take a fool to not expect a million people to drop the five dollar deposit just to test out the game and complain then cancel the pre order. While I agree that some of Cryptics money making tactics are bush league this is just smart business. And I say this simply from listening to all the clowns in the beta already that don't even play the game, are just there to as one player put it do "everything in my power to make sure Cryptic fails.
Look at it this way if no one pre ordered this policy would be worthless because Cryptic would have to issue beta keys anyway (like they did with me I played both closed and open beta and have not pre ordered yet though I plan to this week from Amazon).
While this particular policy isn't surprising I don't think it means all that you are making it out to it's just smart business.
Yes I do, and no it isnt.
If you want to use dodgy irrelevant analogies (which I hate because it always just becomes a argument about whether the analogy is correct or not, rather then the point at hand), It would be closer to a dep store charging me for trying on a shirt in their changing rooms, insisting I pay for it once I found that it dosent fit or the workmanship was crap.
Funny how 'smart business' always seems to involve ripping the consumer off.
Well done though for arguing for POOR product and LESS consumer rights at the same time.
Cryptic are beyond greedy imo... they make SOE look like a charity.
When you own your own personal business and do not pull all the strings to make profit please come back and share your wisdom with us. No one has gun on your head if you want to buy its your choice if not shut the hell up. Cryptic didn't come barging into your home and ask for your money.
I have heard this bullcrap so many times before whether its Mcdonald or Microsoft. Guess what? its business, they are here to make money.
You dont get it. One last go to explain...
Proft is fine. PROFITEERING isnt. There is a difference, and any reasonably intelligent adult knows it.
Wake up.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Seeing as these games are long term services rather then products percieved greed is bad sales strategy, no matter what the state of the economy.
I think its actually funny (if only in a sad way) how consumers like you actually argue for less consumer rights and defend actions from companies like this such as forcing people to buy pre-orders if they dare to log in and participate in the beta... even if they discover the game is fundamentally a steaming pile of garbage during that beta.
This isnt the action of a company confident in what they are offering is it?
So from reading your posts I can say that you have never ran a business with a merchant account, doing ach/rcc transactions. So you know when you use your bank or credit card online, your accepting the contract. I understand how you feel as a consumer but i have been on both side of the transaction, buyers are lyers. There is a thing called buyers remorse, which tends to set in after someone makes an impulse purchase and with some after thought they mind changes. Online merchants accounts are federally regulated so much now that if you have more than a 1% return ratio your account will be frozen and investigated(this is due to the increase of fraud(telemarketing etc..)it use to be 2% then 7% then before upto30%). Open beta isnt a trial, its a final phase of testing. If you arent confident enough in your ability to properly research something before you buy it then its your own fault. If your not 100% positive that you are going to play it/like it etc... then wait for a trial to come out or try to get a free beta key. Heck between me and my wife we got 7. Its not that they arent confident in the product, its the fact that people impulse buy and if it was the wrong decision,its the merchant that will suffer. I can tell you that it hurts. I've never been the owner but i have managed several small companies, with both active and absent owners. When you have an account with 100k frozen in it for the next 6 months because of a couple of upset customers or people who impulse buy and regret it later and return the charge, it doesnt just hurt the bottom line but it hurts the pipeline of funds that is required to run the business. Whats even worse then that is if you do all of your banking in the same place the bank is likely to freeze all of your assets as your being federally investigated to find out why your return ratio is higher than 1%.
So yeah damn right, good for them. If you arent confident in your purchasing abilities or cant afford to take the risk that you wont like it, then you shouldnt have paid in the first place.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
i totally disagree, what he says makes a lot of sense, it may be lacking in actual data, but the premise behind it seems fairly solid, and if you are as you claim. a small business owner, something i have trouble believing.. but hey, anything is possible, then i would ask you to point out which parts you think are flawed, and the reasoning behind it. but im not going to hold my breath on that one
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
i totally disagree, what he says makes a lot of sense, it may be lacking in actual data, but the premise behind it seems fairly solid, and if you are as you claim. a small business owner, something i have trouble believing.. but hey, anything is possible, then i would ask you to point out which parts you think are flawed, and the reasoning behind it. but im not going to hold my breath on that one
Several developers have laid out the business model, many times in many different forums, and it all breaks down to the fact that 80-90% of a game's cost is run up during the development.
After that, it is a few devs to do bug fixes and work on new content, and some money to pay operating overhead.
Plenty of games, several run by SOE, continue to exist because their actual cost to keep running is so pathetically low, that there is no real downside to shutting them down, especially if company reputation doesn't matter.
People here could name several MMOs that continue to "exist" but are far from being a "success." Just because they have not closed the doors yet, is almost irrelevant. And it is mostly because they cost almost nothing to run when they go on "life support".
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued. It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic. If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing. Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
i totally disagree, what he says makes a lot of sense, it may be lacking in actual data, but the premise behind it seems fairly solid, and if you are as you claim. a small business owner, something i have trouble believing.. but hey, anything is possible, then i would ask you to point out which parts you think are flawed, and the reasoning behind it. but im not going to hold my breath on that one
You cant believe Im a small business owner? ..LOL.. its not hard to do!
Anyway, I meant to quote olepi, not grumpy... my bad?
Got kinda bored of the beta myself, canceled my preorder also. Not sure how these people actually think buying the lifetime sub is worth it after I got bored and I only played about 15 hours or less of the open beta.
Got kinda bored of the beta myself, canceled my preorder also. Not sure how these people actually think buying the lifetime sub is worth it after I got bored and I only played about 15 hours or less of the open beta.
My thoughts about City of Heroes when I first tried it many years ago, yet I had gaming friends who loved it and played it steady for 3 years.
We all have different tastes. Doesn't make you right or them wrong.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Got kinda bored of the beta myself, canceled my preorder also. Not sure how these people actually think buying the lifetime sub is worth it after I got bored and I only played about 15 hours or less of the open beta.
I'm just getting caught-up...but I can't imagine that many life-time subscribers are happy with their early decision to purchase; or at least contemplating whether it was actually a good decision based on how awefully incomplete STO seems to be in terms of....well everything that has been the defining features of an mmorpg for the last 5 years.
Comments
Eve's advancement model is drastically different. One could argue(and be mostly correct) that Eve supports only a single character per account, and that the other characters slots are used merely for extracurricular activities.
A sandbox games with unlimited skill sets per character vs a themepark game with specific skillsets per character is an entirely different ballgame when it comes to character slots.
The game will be better when it becomes Free 2 Play with a cash shop. At least then it will be kinda like Guild Wars. Extra Character slots $9.95, etc. etc. Even if it's free I don't think I'll play for long, I don't play Guild Wars anymore either.
Yes, you can blame a company for being greedy, especially given the current state of the economy. Precedents have already been set within the industry. If you break precedent and charge for something that is no longer the norm... its greedy. Fact is, this is a P2P game. I haven't paid for an additional character slot in a P2P game since I played GemstoneIV... which is a mud.
What precedents are you talking about? you mean giving people only three character slots? what norms did Atari break here (since they are the one to make all decisions)? i would really like to know because people are way too overreacting here.
Charging for additional character slots. The only AAA MMO(in recent history) I can think of off the top of my head that charged for additional character slots is Guild Wars... which doesn't carry a monthly charge.
Eve's advancement model is drastically different. One could argue(and be mostly correct) that Eve supports only a single character per account, and that the other characters slots are used merely for extracurricular activities.
A sandbox games with unlimited skill sets per character vs a themepark game with specific skillsets per character is an entirely different ballgame when it comes to character slots.
yeah but since when a precedent was set that anything less then 6 character slot is breaking some rule set in stone? i am all about more character slots but it would be silly to accuse a company for scaming people just by offering less character slots.
Eve's advancement model is drastically different. One could argue(and be mostly correct) that Eve supports only a single character per account, and that the other characters slots are used merely for extracurricular activities.
A sandbox games with unlimited skill sets per character vs a themepark game with specific skillsets per character is an entirely different ballgame when it comes to character slots.
yeah but since when a precedent was set that anything less then 6 character slot is breaking some rule set in stone? i am all about more character slots but it would be silly to accuse a company for scaming people just by offering less character slots.
That's why we aren't just arguing that. They also charge a monthly fee, have poorly worded skills that don't help people make good decisions, a skill cap, and charge for respecs. One can also expect to see visual stuff that should just be part of the game (since it has a monthly fee) being charged for among other things in the cash shop.
I think something like 95% of the people on this forum gave this game a rating of B or less (and the vast majority still voted a C or less). What justifies this game charging more than any other MMO out there? Answer: Nothing.
Do you really believe this? This is akin to complaining that department stores don't allow you to take home the merchandise before paying for it. While I usually consider myself a trusting person I'd think it would take a fool to not expect a million people to drop the five dollar deposit just to test out the game and complain then cancel the pre order. While I agree that some of Cryptics money making tactics are bush league this is just smart business. And I say this simply from listening to all the clowns in the beta already that don't even play the game, are just there to as one player put it do "everything in my power to make sure Cryptic fails.
Look at it this way if no one pre ordered this policy would be worthless because Cryptic would have to issue beta keys anyway (like they did with me I played both closed and open beta and have not pre ordered yet though I plan to this week from Amazon).
While this particular policy isn't surprising I don't think it means all that you are making it out to it's just smart business.
Yes I do, and no it isnt.
If you want to use dodgy irrelevant analogies (which I hate because it always just becomes a argument about whether the analogy is correct or not, rather then the point at hand), It would be closer to a dep store charging me for trying on a shirt in their changing rooms, insisting I pay for it once I found that it dosent fit or the workmanship was crap.
Funny how 'smart business' always seems to involve ripping the consumer off.
Well done though for arguing for POOR product and LESS consumer rights at the same time.
Cryptic are beyond greedy imo... they make SOE look like a charity.
When you own your own personal business and do not pull all the strings to make profit please come back and share your wisdom with us. No one has gun on your head if you want to buy its your choice if not shut the hell up. Cryptic didn't come barging into your home and ask for your money.
I have heard this bullcrap so many times before whether its Mcdonald or Microsoft. Guess what? its business, they are here to make money.
You dont get it. One last go to explain...
Proft is fine. PROFITEERING isnt. There is a difference, and any reasonably intelligent adult knows it.
Wake up.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Im assuming you have not graduated college yet and not taken any business courses to know better. Yes a company needs to make profit somehow of course everyone knows that but what the poster is trying to tell you which your obviously ignoring is that you do it without hurting your customers or ruining your companies reputation. I might as well go into examples to explain this.
Example supermarkets. You have some that offer good deals say buy one get one free products like buy one get one free chips and good deals then you have another market that offers the same chips but its not buy one get one free and it costs more money. Which market are you gonna be shopping at? What the the poster you quoted is trying to tell you is that there is competition out there and doing greedy tactics like charging an arm and a leg for something is going to push people further away to the other direction towards another mmo.
In the example of star trek online yes all mmos charge 15 dollars a month and box price but currently there are none that charge for extra slots or skill change through RMT. Im not gonna disagree with you that its their free right to do it because they can do whatever they like but what they are doing is what the original poster is telling you. They are robbing people out of their money. Then again im not surprised they are cheating people out of their money you already have so many people that dished out 240+ dollars for lifetime sub without even knowing the end game.
Bottom line is that there is a difference between competing with other companies and making a profit by charging customers money and milking your customers for everything they are worth. Big difference here if you don't understand it or see it well then I give up I don't know what to tell you.
I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....
The question is how are they gonna screw you next? They have limited char slots to make you pay for more. They offered a lifetime sub with no discount for 16 months and if you want to play borg you have to pay the lifetime fee. So whats next? Unique ships that you pay for? Skilled deck officers you pay for? I guarantee you they will find more ways to make you pay. The fact they are launching the game in its current state with big patches coming out just a couple weeks before live shows they are more interested in money then a good final product. Enjoy your game folks, it wont last ong.
Do you really believe this? This is akin to complaining that department stores don't allow you to take home the merchandise before paying for it. While I usually consider myself a trusting person I'd think it would take a fool to not expect a million people to drop the five dollar deposit just to test out the game and complain then cancel the pre order. While I agree that some of Cryptics money making tactics are bush league this is just smart business. And I say this simply from listening to all the clowns in the beta already that don't even play the game, are just there to as one player put it do "everything in my power to make sure Cryptic fails.
Look at it this way if no one pre ordered this policy would be worthless because Cryptic would have to issue beta keys anyway (like they did with me I played both closed and open beta and have not pre ordered yet though I plan to this week from Amazon).
While this particular policy isn't surprising I don't think it means all that you are making it out to it's just smart business.
Yes I do, and no it isnt.
If you want to use dodgy irrelevant analogies (which I hate because it always just becomes a argument about whether the analogy is correct or not, rather then the point at hand), It would be closer to a dep store charging me for trying on a shirt in their changing rooms, insisting I pay for it once I found that it dosent fit or the workmanship was crap.
Funny how 'smart business' always seems to involve ripping the consumer off.
Well done though for arguing for POOR product and LESS consumer rights at the same time.
Cryptic are beyond greedy imo... they make SOE look like a charity.
When you own your own personal business and do not pull all the strings to make profit please come back and share your wisdom with us. No one has gun on your head if you want to buy its your choice if not shut the hell up. Cryptic didn't come barging into your home and ask for your money.
I have heard this bullcrap so many times before whether its Mcdonald or Microsoft. Guess what? its business, they are here to make money.
You dont get it. One last go to explain...
Proft is fine. PROFITEERING isnt. There is a difference, and any reasonably intelligent adult knows it.
Wake up.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Im assuming you have not graduated college yet and not taken any business courses to know better. Yes a company needs to make profit somehow of course everyone knows that but what the poster is trying to tell you which your obviously ignoring is that you do it without hurting your customers or ruining your companies reputation. I might as well go into examples to explain this.
Example supermarkets. You have some that offer good deals say buy one get one free products like buy one get one free chips and good deals then you have another market that offers the same chips but its not buy one get one free and it costs more money. Which market are you gonna be shopping at? What the the poster you quoted is trying to tell you is that there is competition out there and doing greedy tactics like charging an arm and a leg for something is going to push people further away to the other direction towards another mmo.
In the example of star trek online yes all mmos charge 15 dollars a month and box price but currently there are none that charge for extra slots or skill change through RMT. Im not gonna disagree with you that its their free right to do it because they can do whatever they like but what they are doing is what the original poster is telling you. They are robbing people out of their money. Then again im not surprised they are cheating people out of their money you already have so many people that dished out 240+ dollars for lifetime sub without even knowing the end game.
Bottom line is that there is a difference between competing with other companies and making a profit by charging customers money and milking your customers for everything they are worth. Big difference here if you don't understand it or see it well then I give up I don't know what to tell you.
You really think i have to join business college in order to understand that? you are talking from ethical and moral point of view and not statistics. Unless, anyone has inside information on how business companies are run and have their full profit and loss data to consider how much profit they are making, i suggest you all need to shut it. They are not robbing anyone because they are not forcing anyone. Its customers choice where to spend money.
You are such an over sensitive drama queen. Cryptic is not knocking on your door buddy, so stop using sentences like 'robbing people out of money'.
Let's consider the business aspect for a moment. Most long-term serious companies are concerned about the value of "good will" that is generated by selling good products at a good price. This good will is what is behind the trademark, so if you see something from company X, you know that X has good products. Somebody else trying to use X's GOOD NAME will get sued.
It is hard to quantify the value of this GOOD NAME, or good will, but it is strategic.
If I advertise food at 1/2 price, or 2 for 1, then I get extra business away from my competitors who charge full price. This lasts until the people realize my food is stale. Then my sales plummet, and my GOOD NAME is ruined. Very hard to get it back. That is the danger Cryptic has when releasing something based on an enormous GOOD NAME, Star Trek, but the actual product is disappointing. For a premium price, STO is disappointing.
Coupled with the same problem with CO, namely poor product at full price, STO could forever tarnish Cryptic as a shoddy product, no matter what IP they use in the future. CO is a big reason I won't subscribe to this game.
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
I take it you went download version? You haven't gotten your retail product yet...you should be able to cancel if you want to. Your card shouldn't even be billed until it ships. Call your CC company for a chargeback if whoever you ordered from refuses a refund.
I'm a huge Trek geek. I haven't cancelled yet, but am heavily leaning that way, and I know there are many people in the same boat.
No he really can't get his money back it is part of the beta agreement. Says something along the lines of once you use the beta key you are obligated to pay for the game.
That's Correct, I already used the Beta Key they gave me. It is okay, maybe they will make all sorts of improvements to the game sometime. A least I will already have it. For one i know the interface is supposed to change for the actual release
I am in the same boat. I would cancell my preorder if I could but I can't. The game is fun and all but I don't want to support Cryptic since they steal us Canadian for no reason.
One reason NOT to go download version I guess, but what do you have to lose by calling your CC company? Of course no company wants to give you your money back, but if make enough of a stink about something, you'd be surprised what can happen.
Sad part is by having this policy of no refunds/ credits on digital download, D2D has basically let STO destroy the digital download business.
I am in the same boat tried to just get a store credit for the game and they refused. I use to buy a lot of digital downloads, but I will never purchase a digital download ever again from anyone and I'm not alone. I've spoken to many others in STO that feel the same way like we are being robbed/lied to.
So when I ordered Mass Effect 2, and GW2 yesterday I ordered hard copies from gamestop, something I havent done in 3 years.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
I don't think ANY company can make SOE look good.
I don't think ANY company can make SOE look good.
That may be true but I must say Cryptic seems to be trying very hard to find out.
Do you really believe this? This is akin to complaining that department stores don't allow you to take home the merchandise before paying for it. While I usually consider myself a trusting person I'd think it would take a fool to not expect a million people to drop the five dollar deposit just to test out the game and complain then cancel the pre order. While I agree that some of Cryptics money making tactics are bush league this is just smart business. And I say this simply from listening to all the clowns in the beta already that don't even play the game, are just there to as one player put it do "everything in my power to make sure Cryptic fails.
Look at it this way if no one pre ordered this policy would be worthless because Cryptic would have to issue beta keys anyway (like they did with me I played both closed and open beta and have not pre ordered yet though I plan to this week from Amazon).
While this particular policy isn't surprising I don't think it means all that you are making it out to it's just smart business.
Yes I do, and no it isnt.
If you want to use dodgy irrelevant analogies (which I hate because it always just becomes a argument about whether the analogy is correct or not, rather then the point at hand), It would be closer to a dep store charging me for trying on a shirt in their changing rooms, insisting I pay for it once I found that it dosent fit or the workmanship was crap.
Funny how 'smart business' always seems to involve ripping the consumer off.
Well done though for arguing for POOR product and LESS consumer rights at the same time.
Cryptic are beyond greedy imo... they make SOE look like a charity.
When you own your own personal business and do not pull all the strings to make profit please come back and share your wisdom with us. No one has gun on your head if you want to buy its your choice if not shut the hell up. Cryptic didn't come barging into your home and ask for your money.
I have heard this bullcrap so many times before whether its Mcdonald or Microsoft. Guess what? its business, they are here to make money.
You dont get it. One last go to explain...
Proft is fine. PROFITEERING isnt. There is a difference, and any reasonably intelligent adult knows it.
Wake up.
And you have indepth knowledge of all these business companies or some inside knowledge to know exactly how much profit is sufficent for them? sitting behind a computer screen you think you are an expert in their annual profits? why don't you wake up and get in touch with reality? Profit is profit and if you tell a business man that you made enough profit for today he will laugh in your face. Especially given the current state of economy can you actually blame anyone for being greedy?
Seeing as these games are long term services rather then products percieved greed is bad sales strategy, no matter what the state of the economy.
I think its actually funny (if only in a sad way) how consumers like you actually argue for less consumer rights and defend actions from companies like this such as forcing people to buy pre-orders if they dare to log in and participate in the beta... even if they discover the game is fundamentally a steaming pile of garbage during that beta.
This isnt the action of a company confident in what they are offering is it?
So from reading your posts I can say that you have never ran a business with a merchant account, doing ach/rcc transactions. So you know when you use your bank or credit card online, your accepting the contract. I understand how you feel as a consumer but i have been on both side of the transaction, buyers are lyers. There is a thing called buyers remorse, which tends to set in after someone makes an impulse purchase and with some after thought they mind changes. Online merchants accounts are federally regulated so much now that if you have more than a 1% return ratio your account will be frozen and investigated(this is due to the increase of fraud(telemarketing etc..)it use to be 2% then 7% then before upto30%). Open beta isnt a trial, its a final phase of testing. If you arent confident enough in your ability to properly research something before you buy it then its your own fault. If your not 100% positive that you are going to play it/like it etc... then wait for a trial to come out or try to get a free beta key. Heck between me and my wife we got 7. Its not that they arent confident in the product, its the fact that people impulse buy and if it was the wrong decision,its the merchant that will suffer. I can tell you that it hurts. I've never been the owner but i have managed several small companies, with both active and absent owners. When you have an account with 100k frozen in it for the next 6 months because of a couple of upset customers or people who impulse buy and regret it later and return the charge, it doesnt just hurt the bottom line but it hurts the pipeline of funds that is required to run the business. Whats even worse then that is if you do all of your banking in the same place the bank is likely to freeze all of your assets as your being federally investigated to find out why your return ratio is higher than 1%.
So yeah damn right, good for them. If you arent confident in your purchasing abilities or cant afford to take the risk that you wont like it, then you shouldnt have paid in the first place.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
i totally disagree, what he says makes a lot of sense, it may be lacking in actual data, but the premise behind it seems fairly solid, and if you are as you claim. a small business owner, something i have trouble believing.. but hey, anything is possible, then i would ask you to point out which parts you think are flawed, and the reasoning behind it. but im not going to hold my breath on that one
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
i totally disagree, what he says makes a lot of sense, it may be lacking in actual data, but the premise behind it seems fairly solid, and if you are as you claim. a small business owner, something i have trouble believing.. but hey, anything is possible, then i would ask you to point out which parts you think are flawed, and the reasoning behind it. but im not going to hold my breath on that one
Several developers have laid out the business model, many times in many different forums, and it all breaks down to the fact that 80-90% of a game's cost is run up during the development.
After that, it is a few devs to do bug fixes and work on new content, and some money to pay operating overhead.
Plenty of games, several run by SOE, continue to exist because their actual cost to keep running is so pathetically low, that there is no real downside to shutting them down, especially if company reputation doesn't matter.
People here could name several MMOs that continue to "exist" but are far from being a "success." Just because they have not closed the doors yet, is almost irrelevant. And it is mostly because they cost almost nothing to run when they go on "life support".
And there are thousand other how would disagree with you because for them STO is good product and worth their money. The atmosphere in game is so different from here. Next to no negativity and everyone is enjoying the game. Do you take those thousands into prespective who are happy with STO? ofcourse not.
In the end for you Cryptic will tarnish their image and STO is a failure but for others its totally opposite. thats why topics like these mean nothing because it all boils down to personal preference.
Yes, unlike the food example, there is no objective measurement for MMO games. Except for sub counts, and profit. people vote with their feet ... er ... keyboards
I would maintain that the results are in for CO, it is a sub-par game.
The jury is still out on STO, it may be a big success. I was just pointing out some business info, and the danger Cryptic has if STO goes the way of CO.
Once again dear friend, a game is success as long as it makes enough money to run operations. CO is sub par or not let its subscriber base decide that. Like i said before its all about personal taste, whats trash to you could be gold to someone else. One person can not form opinion for thousands.
Actualy that would be a very inaccurate measure of "success". With these sorts of products, the VAST majority of costs are sunk up-front in terms of development. The costs for maintaining operations are actualy fairly minimal compared to those.... particularly if you aren't doing much continued development on the product. It's why so few MMO's actualy shut-down. If they are making a dime above thier operating costs then it's usualy worth it to keep the game alive because that money will go toward recouping development costs.
Generaly speaking games that do poorly don't close, what they do is put thier product on life support.... they'll cut or eliminate ongoing development...shrink the support staff down....and may drop or consoldate servers to also help reduce operating costs. A game has to have absolutely horrendous subs to close down altogether...unless there is some other factor at play (like licensing fee's/agreements).
A game that is simply meeting it's operating costs or even modestly exceeding them may ALREADY be in the hole for tens of millions of dollars..... hardly the definition of "success" in most books.
The way most companies gauge success would be if it can pay off it's investors are happy with the ROI they get...they can make back thier money and some decent proffit in a reasonable time....and it still continues to make money after that. That means likely the company will be able to get investment money at a good rate for future projects.
Lets do some back of the envelope math....lets say an MMO takes 30 Mil to make (that's pretty low but we are being hypothetical here). Lets say it has 200K box sales at $20 proffit each (remember alot of the gross sales will go to paying distributers/retailers as well as the production cost of the box itself). According to my Math that's 4 Mil gross.... The projects still 26 Mil in the hole... Now lets say it actualy retains HALF of those sales as subs....that's 100K subs at what...an avergage $15 monthly .... Even at ZERO operating costs (and we know those won't be ZERO) that's still only 1.5 Mil per month gross. Lets say it's Operating Costs are only 1/3rd of that ....or around 500K per month.... that's only 6 Mil in operating costs per year...not alot for a decent sized company. At that rate, the game doesn't START to make a profit until 27 months after launch. At that point, if it still retains it's full subscriber base (and how many games don't start to slip subs after 2 years unless they start adding expansions)... it'll start to make a modest proffit. Now, if you actualy invested at the beginning of the project...you're actualy talking 4-7 years before you see ANY return on your investment......and that's with the project taking in triple it's operating costs. If it's only operating at cost or slightly higher...it's actualy a dismal FAILURE.
Ummm.. as a small business owner, and investor, no offense to you, but you have NO IDEA what your talking about. Its starts with your premise, then falls sharply by flawed logic, Sorry.
i totally disagree, what he says makes a lot of sense, it may be lacking in actual data, but the premise behind it seems fairly solid, and if you are as you claim. a small business owner, something i have trouble believing.. but hey, anything is possible, then i would ask you to point out which parts you think are flawed, and the reasoning behind it. but im not going to hold my breath on that one
You cant believe Im a small business owner? ..LOL.. its not hard to do!
Anyway, I meant to quote olepi, not grumpy... my bad?
Got kinda bored of the beta myself, canceled my preorder also. Not sure how these people actually think buying the lifetime sub is worth it after I got bored and I only played about 15 hours or less of the open beta.
My thoughts about City of Heroes when I first tried it many years ago, yet I had gaming friends who loved it and played it steady for 3 years.
We all have different tastes. Doesn't make you right or them wrong.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm just getting caught-up...but I can't imagine that many life-time subscribers are happy with their early decision to purchase; or at least contemplating whether it was actually a good decision based on how awefully incomplete STO seems to be in terms of....well everything that has been the defining features of an mmorpg for the last 5 years.
It saddens me that such a good IP cannot get a good mmorpg going. I hope they can keep this game going and improve it to what it should be.