Because it creates game imbalance and greed. The player with the most cash wins and that's ridiculous. And if game companies are so greedy that they need to charge players for content, I'm not going to play the game. Period.
What games do you have personal experience where you have *seen* this... and I am talking about PvPing a guy with CS gear that's way better than yours, or anything similar. It happens, but I doubt it's actually happened to *you*, and I think you're just going off of popular belief. Bandwagons are lame guy.
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Because it creates game imbalance and greed. The player with the most cash wins and that's ridiculous. And if game companies are so greedy that they need to charge players for content (outside or instead of a monthly payment), I'm not going to play the game. Period.
How do you "win" a PvE game? For example, in DDO, the fun of the game comes from going through dungeons & adventures and getting level up and treasure. There is no "winning" there. You go at your own pace. If someone is going faster than me, if they spend money, that does not affect me. Plus, they are subsidizing my gaming. How is that bad for me?
Because it creates game imbalance and greed. The player with the most cash wins and that's ridiculous. And if game companies are so greedy that they need to charge players for content, I'm not going to play the game. Period.
What games do you have personal experience where you have *seen* this... and I am talking about PvPing a guy with CS gear that's way better than yours, or anything similar. It happens, but I doubt it's actually happened to *you*, and I think you're just going off of popular belief. Bandwagons are lame guy.
Silkroad comes to mind. But hey, if you want to throw your cash around and support those companies then more power to you.
Being a lemming is lame guy.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Silkroad comes to mind. But hey, if you want to throw your cash around and support those companies then more power to you. Being a lemming is lame guy.
If you play it often enough, why not pay for fringe benefits? They give you free entertainment, whether you expect that to be everything you wanted without paying or not is the problem.
Being an ungrateful deadbeat is lame guy.
Again, i'm asking if you actually played Silkroad to a point where you experienced CS items ruining your experience. You're not likely to see that till later on, that is if they even sell items like that (was mostly +XP crap), so I'm guessing you quit long before you could even see for yourself.
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When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
Look at Dungeons and Dragons Online for an example of how such shops operate. It seems have done very well for itself. Turbine must have been pretty desperate to have tried something that radical in the western market. As for The "greed" remark, I've yet to hear anyone define that other than some version of "you have more than I do", or "you have more than I think you should". Why people insist on using such an inherently subjective label I doubt I'll ever understand. Item shops can be good, bad or neutral, depending on how they are established.
Some of us don't care that the next guy over bought more digital milk for his glass and just enjoy the free milk in ours.
Cept the free milk is worthless compared to the digital milk, then it becomes a problem, especially in pvp environments. Hence why Item mall games are pointless to try and compete in.
See there's the problem right there; you're trying to compete and think that you can have some kind of fair playing field in a MMO.
You can't.
I can't name a MMO where player skill means more than either time/money spent. There are some titles where time/money is limited, but even so, you are almost never playing a fair game. The very nature of the genre prevents it. When you realize that all your achievements, levels, items, or whatever are nothing more than a product of your ability to do simple repetitive tasks over and over you can get away from the notion that you can compete in a MMO.
Ironically, this same drive to compete in what is essentially a never ending game of whack a mole is also what drives people to get to the mythical end game as fast as they can.
Personally, I don't care whether you buy your items/levels or sit and earn them. I play they game for some kind of story or casual entertainment. Your widgets have little to no bearing on me, so I really don't care how you get them.
Silkroad comes to mind. But hey, if you want to throw your cash around and support those companies then more power to you. Being a lemming is lame guy.
If you play it often enough, why not pay for fringe benefits? They give you free entertainment, whether you expect that to be everything you wanted without paying or not is the problem.
Being an ungrateful deadbeat is lame guy.
Whatever, I gave my opinion and you gave yours. Beating a dead horse is lame guy.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Let companies who want to make more money be up front and honest and just charge more per month.
~and you are willing to pay more?
Let's be honest, the moment a sub rate rises you folk will be raising a bigger stink than when the CS forces you to buy oxygen.
Raising a sub rate is problematic, for sure. I think a long-term arrangement like an MMO account implies a standard of service from the vendor. I think we will eventually see lawsuits about that issue.
I would have been fine paying double for WoW back when I was actually enjoying it. Simply because it was clearly better than the alternatives. That's the snag, though. The company would have to convince players that it was better than the competition. It wouldn't be sneaky and underhanded like cash shops.
I have heard a bit about DDO's system, and it might be the right way to handle this - a sub fee with all cash shop items free (but untradeable), or pay no sub, but pay per cash shop item. It's probably not exactly like that, but I don't play the game, myself.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
For me, even what you described it gamebreaking. Some players having a distinct advantage over others based on how much money is shelled out. I'll never play an item mall game obviously, I'm just baffled by people who do, I don't understand how paying for virtual items or advantages is fun or engaging.
Some of us don't care that the next guy over bought more digital milk for his glass and just enjoy the free milk in ours.
Cept the free milk is worthless compared to the digital milk, then it becomes a problem, especially in pvp environments. Hence why Item mall games are pointless to try and compete in.
One should know that going in. I've no problem with item shops, just so long as everyone has access to them. I have no problem in supporting games I enjoy, as the Dev's need to make money in some fashion. Designing, coding, maintaining MMO's costs quite a bit of time/talent and money.
You can't blame companies for finding different ways to make money for their games.
Oh, how little you know me.
Small advantages are still advantages. It's not right, and it's not fair. End of story.
Let companies who want to make more money be up front and honest and just charge more per month.
I think you really don't understand what an item mall is, how it works or who the target audience often is.
Not everyone has a credit card or can use their card for a subscription.
Not everyone wants to pay a subscription.
Those are two big reasons that the F2P model has come about. Now let's look at it from the dev side of the fence... it populates the game. It's worth it to have free people in the game because it encourages the paying people to stay.
The paying people that like grouping have people to raid with.
The paying people that like vanity items have people to show their items off to
The paying people that are entering the game have people to play with.
The paying people that like to socialize have people to socialize with.
F2P is not designed to get everyone to spend money. Only a small percentage ever will. Does your marketing dept spend the company's time and money trying to squeeze blood from a stone? If so, how's that working out for you? F2P is designed to offer enticing features for those who will spend money.
Not all F2P have this rumoured barrier at a certain level where you need to pay money.
If you listen to the anti-item mall people on these boards, you'd swear that there is this huge majority of MMO gamers that are into PvP, as that is one of the biggest arguments that crowd uses against RMT. Other than War Rock, Atlantica Online and a small handful of the hundreds of F2P MMOs, there are few where you can buy any kind of IWIN button, but their argument is that is the case in all of them. Actually, there's plenty more but suffice it to say, the majority of arguments against item malls are based entirely on exaggeration or misinformation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Most F2P MMO’s have PvP, so it is not just a matter of time and who gets to end level first. Paying for better items to win in PvP is as unfair as it gets. F2P companies know that no matter how many items they have they can only create and sell new ones every so often, tempting players with the latest must have upgrades. So how do you create a regular income from PvP rather than a one dependent on new armour sets? Welcome to the world of cash shop temporary boosts, which give the edge in PvP that you need! This is what I mean when I say that a microtransaction revenue model lends itself towards abusing customers, and finding more and more ways to milk them for extra cash. Rather than concentrate on making the game better so we want to play it, staff spend a lot of time thinking about how to make more money from the cash shop. This is the essential differance in design ethos that the revenue system creates.
While I understand this sentiment to some degree, what I don't understand is how you feel any PvP fight with unbalanced opponents can be fair?
Does it really matter why one opponent has an edge?
If you got shelled by some basement dweller who has epic uber legendary items of slaying because they have played 16 hours a day for five years, it's no different than if you got killed by the Yuppie Corporate Banker who just dropped $1 mil to the devs for his own custom tweaked turbo killing gear. Either way, most people can't do those sorts of things.
So why is one any more fair than the other?
In either case you tried to run a 100 yard dash against someone who got spotted 50 yards. Sure games try to have 'beginner areas' or 'divisions' to keep people roughly the same. Consider the following, you clone yourself to get more game time in. You and your clone create the same toons, and progress along the same path. Your clone is given a toon that has a +15% numerical superiority over you. How many times will you win? Your 'skill' is the same. Odds are, you loose most of the time.
To you, it really doesn't matter if that clone bought his 15%, or earned it. Either way, you don't have it and hence the game is not fair. Someone is always going to have more money or time than you. Realize that, realize that MMOs aren't fair and you go a long way to getting over digital toon envy.
Free games with a CS are like an ice cream parlor where everyone gets all the ice cream they want, but if you want toppings - you gotta pay for it. Then all the little kids scream about how it's not fair that the guy next to him was willing to shill out for his sprinkles, and that they deserve it just for showing up.
I understand that people are pissed about the appearance of CS on top of subscription plans, but you folk have been crying since the days when they were all relegated to a *completely free game*. Jebus...
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The difference between the one who buys stuff and the one who plays for it (and yes, some things are actually won, not just grinded for) is that the player is interacting in some way with the other players. Creating content, of a sort. Running group or raid content (thus improving the game experience for other players).
The one who buys stuff doesn't do any of that, and the content placed in the shop was diverted (if it is exclusive) from content which would have been put in a patch or expansion.
It IS unfair as well, and for those of you who don't care about fairness - well, I don't care about your opinion. You have no moral standing to your arguments, and have no right to complain about anything. That's where not caring about fairness takes you. To a solitary hell. To a lifetime of hearing nothing but "life's not fair" as answer to any problem you ever have in life. Got mugged - well, life's not fair. Go away. House is on fire - well, life's not fair. QQ more. See how that works? Got lung cancer - TS, life's not fair.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The difference between the one who buys stuff and the one who plays for it (and yes, some things are actually won, not just grinded for) is that the player is interacting in some way with the other players. Creating content, of a sort. Running group or raid content (thus improving the game experience for other players). The one who buys stuff doesn't do any of that, and the content placed in the shop was diverted (if it is exclusive) from content which would have been put in a patch or expansion. It IS unfair as well, and for those of you who don't care about fairness - well, I don't care about your opinion. You have no moral standing to your arguments, and have no right to complain about anything. That's where not caring about fairness takes you. To a solitary hell. To a lifetime of hearing nothing but "life's not fair" as answer to any problem you ever have in life. Got mugged - well, life's not fair. Go away. House is on fire - well, life's not fair. QQ more. See how that works? Got lung cancer - TS, life's not fair.
I've heard people say it's not fair that those that have the time to pump countless hours in raiding to GET that gear when they do not too.
Where is the line big guy?
Is it not fair to the guy who bought his way into endgame gear and missed out on all the glorious raid runs for the setup you're using, or is it not fair to you that you had to spend all that time doing it when he paid his way to it?
All I see is a bunch of selfish bullshit spittling on my screen, and it just won't seem to wipe off...
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This is just my 2 cents. I have played atlantica online which is a f2p and there is no way to compete pvp (the core game) without using the cash shop, hell you cant even see other peoples life without using the cash shop which just THOSE items cost you more than a reg montly. Lets just say i dont play any longer.
I was playing eq2 and loved the game and then they implemented a cash shop on top of my monthly. As soon as i found out I went to my account page and /canceled.
Only game I found that has a good model is EVE online. I would still be playing this game but at this current time I am not playing MMORPG's since most are rehashed junk.
I understand where you are coming from with the EQ2 CS addition, but I don't know what they are really selling on it, and I doubt you bothered to look before making your decision... but we both know that it's probably a bad example even if we did have a better idea. I dunno what SOE is thinking in terms of salvaging it's image.
As for Atlantica though, are you really gonna complain about something you get for free simply because you can't win in PvP vs paying players? A charity game (free ones) doesn't owe you that courtesy. Also, there are other things to do, and god forbid you actually throw a little money at something you enjoy.
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no they aren't any good. it's worse if you can sell what you buy to in game players. it's the best way to ruin a econmy. I play 9dragons and b/c they are allowed to do that. you can't afford anything in the game. most things worthy of having start at 1mil and can go up to 40 or high.
The difference between the one who buys stuff and the one who plays for it (and yes, some things are actually won, not just grinded for) is that the player is interacting in some way with the other players. Creating content, of a sort. Running group or raid content (thus improving the game experience for other players). The one who buys stuff doesn't do any of that, and the content placed in the shop was diverted (if it is exclusive) from content which would have been put in a patch or expansion. You are still palcing this in the context of CS on top of subscription and all items being game affecting to any degree. Yes, if you pile on a ton of conditionals to your argument, you will eventually narrow it down to the point where your argument in some way makes sense, MMO_D. However, keep in mind that each time you do that you further reinforce that the overarching argument "Item malls are bad" is false and that there is a bigger issue that has little to do with the item malls or any actual imbalance of any kind. It IS unfair as well, and for those of you who don't care about fairness - well, I don't care about your opinion. You have no moral standing to your arguments, and have no right to complain about anything. That's where not caring about fairness takes you. To a solitary hell. To a lifetime of hearing nothing but "life's not fair" as answer to any problem you ever have in life. Got mugged - well, life's not fair. Go away. House is on fire - well, life's not fair. QQ more. See how that works? Got lung cancer - TS, life's not fair. You're not the only one that feels that way. Many of the people that are against RMT feel that a two dollar pixelated straw hat is as horrible a pox on society as lung cancer. While you are entitled to your opinions, it makes it that much harder to actually have any meaningful discussion on the topic when you hold such an extreme and unswaying position.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
no they aren't any good. it's worse if you can sell what you buy to in game players. it's the best way to ruin a econmy. I play 9dragons and b/c they are allowed to do that. you can't afford anything in the game. most things worthy of having start at 1mil and can go up to 40 or high.
You mean you can't afford any CS items with in-game currency at the exchange rates, and duh, it's to be expected and Megaten does that as well. Mind telling us how it affects non-CS items?
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The difference between the one who buys stuff and the one who plays for it (and yes, some things are actually won, not just grinded for) is that the player is interacting in some way with the other players. Creating content, of a sort. Running group or raid content (thus improving the game experience for other players). The one who buys stuff doesn't do any of that, and the content placed in the shop was diverted (if it is exclusive) from content which would have been put in a patch or expansion. <snipped vitriolic ranting for post brevity>
Sure, things are won. However, that's still pointless to discussion of some kind of fair contest.
If you walk up to a toon and have a numerical advantage, it's not a fair competition. You should not want to play that contest period. The method of acquiring the numerical advantage doesn't really matter when you are faced with it. You get killed whether you faced someone who has more time just as you do facing someone with more money.
I have yet to see anything in any MMO that was acquired with anything other than hours or money. For reference, I've played: WoW, CoX, CO, UO, EQ, EQ2, SB, AC, AC2, PO, AoC, and WAR. I can't think of anything in any of those games that I could not get by just putting in more hours. Note: I didn't say that I had to get better at the game. Doing the same thing, with the same skills, would eventually achieve the result I wanted.
Now, I'll grant you that games that divert content to their item shops better have a good reason for doing so. However, if that keeps them in business and putting things out, then it's cool by me.
However, I just laugh when I hear people talking about cash shops destroying the integrity of the game, or the balance, or it's not fair when money is introduced. It's not fair to start. Come back when you are talking about some kind of fair competitive medium like chess or sprints and I'll get worked up on buying an advantage.
Originally posted by bstripp Sure, things are won. However, that's still pointless to discussion of some kind of fair contest. If you walk up to a toon and have a numerical advantage, it's not a fair competition. You should not want to play that contest period. The method of acquiring the numerical advantage doesn't really matter when you are faced with it. You get killed whether you faced someone who has more time just as you do facing someone with more money. I have yet to see anything in any MMO that was acquired with anything other than hours or money. For reference, I've played: WoW, CoX, CO, UO, EQ, EQ2, SB, AC, AC2, PO, AoC, and WAR. I can't think of anything in any of those games that I could not get by just putting in more hours. Note: I didn't say that I had to get better at the game. Doing the same thing, with the same skills, would eventually achieve the result I wanted. Now, I'll grant you that games that divert content to their item shops better have a good reason for doing so. However, if that keeps them in business and putting things out, then it's cool by me. However, I just laugh when I hear people talking about cash shops destroying the integrity of the game, or the balance, or it's not fair when money is introduced. It's not fair to start. Come back when you are talking about some kind of fair competitive medium like chess or sprints and I'll get worked up on buying an advantage.
Uh huh. Being able to play more IS an advantage. It is unfair. As I said, at least it provides content for other players (thus improving the game overall).
I would be fine with limiting character advancement to a reasonable amount per week. The question is: what is reasonable? Four hours a week? Eight? This IS an MMO after all. Yes, I know lots of players would be against that too, but they are basically on the same level as Mr Moneybags.
So, there's my proposal - no cash purchase of anything in-game, and a limit on the amount of XP, gold, and items one can earn in a week. Does that sound fair?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If a game is designed for them, they can be acceptable assuming the game isn't designed to give a huge advantage to those willing and able to spend obscene amounts of money. How much is that? I'd say if a player can spend more than about 20 bucks a month and gain a big edge they've crossed the line.
I recall playing ROM and one player in particular spent over 8K US to gear up his character and he was nigh unkillable even by a group of 6 normal players who gained their gear by more conventional means.
And it wasn't even always at the extreme end of the spectrum. I ran into a level 25 Rogue who was near unkillable by my level 40 due to his gear, and when my son and I faced him a draw was the best we could do with our level 26's. I later asked him how he pulled off having like 4000HP's to my Paladins 2100 and he said $400.00 spent in the item shop was the secret.
While I actually had spent about 75 bucks for my son and I to have some mounts and starting diamonds, there was no way I was every going to try and keep up with that sort of race so we both left the game. (Had for about 3 months though, so not a total loss)
Now in a P2P game I really don't care for item shops, especially if they sell exclusive items that can only be obtained from the item shop and not through in game play.
I actually dislike the fact that some recent releases like STO offer items for pre-orders or special editions that will only be available to those who participate in them.
EVE has RMT, but there's nothing I can't get in game that I couldn't if I had sold GTC's for ISK, and in fact, I've not found it necessary and am sitting on plenty of ISK in game right now.
So Items shops are a matter of degree I think. They can be fairly benign or supremely evil, depending on the circumstancces.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't see what is the big fairness debate on PvE games. People who plays longer, or joined the game earlier always have the "advantage" which consist of nothing but bragging rights.
I would much rather have a free game (like DDO), then not because of this. WOW is completely fair game and i saw people with better gear running around. DDO i saw people with better gear (and higher level) running around. There is no difference.
Uh huh. Being able to play more IS an advantage. It is unfair. As I said, at least it provides content for other players (thus improving the game overall). I would be fine with limiting character advancement to a reasonable amount per week. The question is: what is reasonable? Four hours a week? Eight? This IS an MMO after all. Yes, I know lots of players would be against that too, but they are basically on the same level as Mr Moneybags. So, there's my proposal - no cash purchase of anything in-game, and a limit on the amount of XP, gold, and items one can earn in a week. Does that sound fair?
Not really. Whatever limits you set, someone won't be able to make them.
My point is that MMO's are NEVER fair. If you want fair, play a FPS, or a RTS, or something that every one has a statistical even chance of winning a given encounter.
So if you want to argue cash shops or hours played, you can never come up with an equitable measure. Why? It's the medium. People shouldn't look as MMOs as competitive since they're more akin to reading a book. The time you put in should equal the entertainment you get out. I don't care if you read faster than me, I'll get there in my own time and in my own restrictions.
Why does this pertain to the current arguement?
Most people will say they that they hate cash shops because they are not fair to people who don't want to spend lots of money. They equate it to competitions which are fair and try to apply morality as if this was a fair medium to start. You can't talk about fair when no matter what you do, unless you drop the RPG out of it, you are likely not playing a fair game anyway. So trying to argue that they shouldn't be in the game based on fairness is just saying you prefer one bias over the other. Cash or time are merely methods to getting the unfair +X% that you use to win your encounters over someone who doesn't have them.
Being unable to make things perfectly fair is no excuse to not even try to balance things. That's just the law of the jungle, and I thought we had developed past that system.
More fair is better than less fair. Take what you can get.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
What games do you have personal experience where you have *seen* this... and I am talking about PvPing a guy with CS gear that's way better than yours, or anything similar. It happens, but I doubt it's actually happened to *you*, and I think you're just going off of popular belief. Bandwagons are lame guy.
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How do you "win" a PvE game? For example, in DDO, the fun of the game comes from going through dungeons & adventures and getting level up and treasure. There is no "winning" there. You go at your own pace. If someone is going faster than me, if they spend money, that does not affect me. Plus, they are subsidizing my gaming. How is that bad for me?
What games do you have personal experience where you have *seen* this... and I am talking about PvPing a guy with CS gear that's way better than yours, or anything similar. It happens, but I doubt it's actually happened to *you*, and I think you're just going off of popular belief. Bandwagons are lame guy.
Silkroad comes to mind. But hey, if you want to throw your cash around and support those companies then more power to you.
Being a lemming is lame guy.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
If you play it often enough, why not pay for fringe benefits? They give you free entertainment, whether you expect that to be everything you wanted without paying or not is the problem.
Being an ungrateful deadbeat is lame guy.
Again, i'm asking if you actually played Silkroad to a point where you experienced CS items ruining your experience. You're not likely to see that till later on, that is if they even sell items like that (was mostly +XP crap), so I'm guessing you quit long before you could even see for yourself.
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Look at Dungeons and Dragons Online for an example of how such shops operate. It seems have done very well for itself. Turbine must have been pretty desperate to have tried something that radical in the western market. As for The "greed" remark, I've yet to hear anyone define that other than some version of "you have more than I do", or "you have more than I think you should". Why people insist on using such an inherently subjective label I doubt I'll ever understand. Item shops can be good, bad or neutral, depending on how they are established.
Cept the free milk is worthless compared to the digital milk, then it becomes a problem, especially in pvp environments. Hence why Item mall games are pointless to try and compete in.
See there's the problem right there; you're trying to compete and think that you can have some kind of fair playing field in a MMO.
You can't.
I can't name a MMO where player skill means more than either time/money spent. There are some titles where time/money is limited, but even so, you are almost never playing a fair game. The very nature of the genre prevents it. When you realize that all your achievements, levels, items, or whatever are nothing more than a product of your ability to do simple repetitive tasks over and over you can get away from the notion that you can compete in a MMO.
Ironically, this same drive to compete in what is essentially a never ending game of whack a mole is also what drives people to get to the mythical end game as fast as they can.
Personally, I don't care whether you buy your items/levels or sit and earn them. I play they game for some kind of story or casual entertainment. Your widgets have little to no bearing on me, so I really don't care how you get them.
If you play it often enough, why not pay for fringe benefits? They give you free entertainment, whether you expect that to be everything you wanted without paying or not is the problem.
Being an ungrateful deadbeat is lame guy.
Whatever, I gave my opinion and you gave yours. Beating a dead horse is lame guy.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
~and you are willing to pay more?
Let's be honest, the moment a sub rate rises you folk will be raising a bigger stink than when the CS forces you to buy oxygen.
Raising a sub rate is problematic, for sure. I think a long-term arrangement like an MMO account implies a standard of service from the vendor. I think we will eventually see lawsuits about that issue.
I would have been fine paying double for WoW back when I was actually enjoying it. Simply because it was clearly better than the alternatives. That's the snag, though. The company would have to convince players that it was better than the competition. It wouldn't be sneaky and underhanded like cash shops.
I have heard a bit about DDO's system, and it might be the right way to handle this - a sub fee with all cash shop items free (but untradeable), or pay no sub, but pay per cash shop item. It's probably not exactly like that, but I don't play the game, myself.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Some of us don't care that the next guy over bought more digital milk for his glass and just enjoy the free milk in ours.
Cept the free milk is worthless compared to the digital milk, then it becomes a problem, especially in pvp environments. Hence why Item mall games are pointless to try and compete in.
One should know that going in. I've no problem with item shops, just so long as everyone has access to them. I have no problem in supporting games I enjoy, as the Dev's need to make money in some fashion. Designing, coding, maintaining MMO's costs quite a bit of time/talent and money.
Oh, how little you know me.
Small advantages are still advantages. It's not right, and it's not fair. End of story.
Let companies who want to make more money be up front and honest and just charge more per month.
I think you really don't understand what an item mall is, how it works or who the target audience often is.
Not everyone has a credit card or can use their card for a subscription.
Not everyone wants to pay a subscription.
Those are two big reasons that the F2P model has come about. Now let's look at it from the dev side of the fence... it populates the game. It's worth it to have free people in the game because it encourages the paying people to stay.
F2P is not designed to get everyone to spend money. Only a small percentage ever will. Does your marketing dept spend the company's time and money trying to squeeze blood from a stone? If so, how's that working out for you? F2P is designed to offer enticing features for those who will spend money.
Not all F2P have this rumoured barrier at a certain level where you need to pay money.
If you listen to the anti-item mall people on these boards, you'd swear that there is this huge majority of MMO gamers that are into PvP, as that is one of the biggest arguments that crowd uses against RMT. Other than War Rock, Atlantica Online and a small handful of the hundreds of F2P MMOs, there are few where you can buy any kind of IWIN button, but their argument is that is the case in all of them. Actually, there's plenty more but suffice it to say, the majority of arguments against item malls are based entirely on exaggeration or misinformation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
While I understand this sentiment to some degree, what I don't understand is how you feel any PvP fight with unbalanced opponents can be fair?
Does it really matter why one opponent has an edge?
If you got shelled by some basement dweller who has epic uber legendary items of slaying because they have played 16 hours a day for five years, it's no different than if you got killed by the Yuppie Corporate Banker who just dropped $1 mil to the devs for his own custom tweaked turbo killing gear. Either way, most people can't do those sorts of things.
So why is one any more fair than the other?
In either case you tried to run a 100 yard dash against someone who got spotted 50 yards. Sure games try to have 'beginner areas' or 'divisions' to keep people roughly the same. Consider the following, you clone yourself to get more game time in. You and your clone create the same toons, and progress along the same path. Your clone is given a toon that has a +15% numerical superiority over you. How many times will you win? Your 'skill' is the same. Odds are, you loose most of the time.
To you, it really doesn't matter if that clone bought his 15%, or earned it. Either way, you don't have it and hence the game is not fair. Someone is always going to have more money or time than you. Realize that, realize that MMOs aren't fair and you go a long way to getting over digital toon envy.
Here is my morning anecdote for the situation.
Free games with a CS are like an ice cream parlor where everyone gets all the ice cream they want, but if you want toppings - you gotta pay for it. Then all the little kids scream about how it's not fair that the guy next to him was willing to shill out for his sprinkles, and that they deserve it just for showing up.
I understand that people are pissed about the appearance of CS on top of subscription plans, but you folk have been crying since the days when they were all relegated to a *completely free game*. Jebus...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The difference between the one who buys stuff and the one who plays for it (and yes, some things are actually won, not just grinded for) is that the player is interacting in some way with the other players. Creating content, of a sort. Running group or raid content (thus improving the game experience for other players).
The one who buys stuff doesn't do any of that, and the content placed in the shop was diverted (if it is exclusive) from content which would have been put in a patch or expansion.
It IS unfair as well, and for those of you who don't care about fairness - well, I don't care about your opinion. You have no moral standing to your arguments, and have no right to complain about anything. That's where not caring about fairness takes you. To a solitary hell. To a lifetime of hearing nothing but "life's not fair" as answer to any problem you ever have in life. Got mugged - well, life's not fair. Go away. House is on fire - well, life's not fair. QQ more. See how that works? Got lung cancer - TS, life's not fair.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I've heard people say it's not fair that those that have the time to pump countless hours in raiding to GET that gear when they do not too.
Where is the line big guy?
Is it not fair to the guy who bought his way into endgame gear and missed out on all the glorious raid runs for the setup you're using, or is it not fair to you that you had to spend all that time doing it when he paid his way to it?
All I see is a bunch of selfish bullshit spittling on my screen, and it just won't seem to wipe off...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
This is just my 2 cents. I have played atlantica online which is a f2p and there is no way to compete pvp (the core game) without using the cash shop, hell you cant even see other peoples life without using the cash shop which just THOSE items cost you more than a reg montly. Lets just say i dont play any longer.
I was playing eq2 and loved the game and then they implemented a cash shop on top of my monthly. As soon as i found out I went to my account page and /canceled.
Only game I found that has a good model is EVE online. I would still be playing this game but at this current time I am not playing MMORPG's since most are rehashed junk.
I understand where you are coming from with the EQ2 CS addition, but I don't know what they are really selling on it, and I doubt you bothered to look before making your decision... but we both know that it's probably a bad example even if we did have a better idea. I dunno what SOE is thinking in terms of salvaging it's image.
As for Atlantica though, are you really gonna complain about something you get for free simply because you can't win in PvP vs paying players? A charity game (free ones) doesn't owe you that courtesy. Also, there are other things to do, and god forbid you actually throw a little money at something you enjoy.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
no they aren't any good. it's worse if you can sell what you buy to in game players. it's the best way to ruin a econmy. I play 9dragons and b/c they are allowed to do that. you can't afford anything in the game. most things worthy of having start at 1mil and can go up to 40 or high.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You mean you can't afford any CS items with in-game currency at the exchange rates, and duh, it's to be expected and Megaten does that as well. Mind telling us how it affects non-CS items?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Sure, things are won. However, that's still pointless to discussion of some kind of fair contest.
If you walk up to a toon and have a numerical advantage, it's not a fair competition. You should not want to play that contest period. The method of acquiring the numerical advantage doesn't really matter when you are faced with it. You get killed whether you faced someone who has more time just as you do facing someone with more money.
I have yet to see anything in any MMO that was acquired with anything other than hours or money. For reference, I've played: WoW, CoX, CO, UO, EQ, EQ2, SB, AC, AC2, PO, AoC, and WAR. I can't think of anything in any of those games that I could not get by just putting in more hours. Note: I didn't say that I had to get better at the game. Doing the same thing, with the same skills, would eventually achieve the result I wanted.
Now, I'll grant you that games that divert content to their item shops better have a good reason for doing so. However, if that keeps them in business and putting things out, then it's cool by me.
However, I just laugh when I hear people talking about cash shops destroying the integrity of the game, or the balance, or it's not fair when money is introduced. It's not fair to start. Come back when you are talking about some kind of fair competitive medium like chess or sprints and I'll get worked up on buying an advantage.
Uh huh. Being able to play more IS an advantage. It is unfair. As I said, at least it provides content for other players (thus improving the game overall).
I would be fine with limiting character advancement to a reasonable amount per week. The question is: what is reasonable? Four hours a week? Eight? This IS an MMO after all. Yes, I know lots of players would be against that too, but they are basically on the same level as Mr Moneybags.
So, there's my proposal - no cash purchase of anything in-game, and a limit on the amount of XP, gold, and items one can earn in a week. Does that sound fair?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If a game is designed for them, they can be acceptable assuming the game isn't designed to give a huge advantage to those willing and able to spend obscene amounts of money. How much is that? I'd say if a player can spend more than about 20 bucks a month and gain a big edge they've crossed the line.
I recall playing ROM and one player in particular spent over 8K US to gear up his character and he was nigh unkillable even by a group of 6 normal players who gained their gear by more conventional means.
And it wasn't even always at the extreme end of the spectrum. I ran into a level 25 Rogue who was near unkillable by my level 40 due to his gear, and when my son and I faced him a draw was the best we could do with our level 26's. I later asked him how he pulled off having like 4000HP's to my Paladins 2100 and he said $400.00 spent in the item shop was the secret.
While I actually had spent about 75 bucks for my son and I to have some mounts and starting diamonds, there was no way I was every going to try and keep up with that sort of race so we both left the game. (Had for about 3 months though, so not a total loss)
Now in a P2P game I really don't care for item shops, especially if they sell exclusive items that can only be obtained from the item shop and not through in game play.
I actually dislike the fact that some recent releases like STO offer items for pre-orders or special editions that will only be available to those who participate in them.
EVE has RMT, but there's nothing I can't get in game that I couldn't if I had sold GTC's for ISK, and in fact, I've not found it necessary and am sitting on plenty of ISK in game right now.
So Items shops are a matter of degree I think. They can be fairly benign or supremely evil, depending on the circumstancces.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't see what is the big fairness debate on PvE games. People who plays longer, or joined the game earlier always have the "advantage" which consist of nothing but bragging rights.
I would much rather have a free game (like DDO), then not because of this. WOW is completely fair game and i saw people with better gear running around. DDO i saw people with better gear (and higher level) running around. There is no difference.
Not really. Whatever limits you set, someone won't be able to make them.
My point is that MMO's are NEVER fair. If you want fair, play a FPS, or a RTS, or something that every one has a statistical even chance of winning a given encounter.
So if you want to argue cash shops or hours played, you can never come up with an equitable measure. Why? It's the medium. People shouldn't look as MMOs as competitive since they're more akin to reading a book. The time you put in should equal the entertainment you get out. I don't care if you read faster than me, I'll get there in my own time and in my own restrictions.
Why does this pertain to the current arguement?
Most people will say they that they hate cash shops because they are not fair to people who don't want to spend lots of money. They equate it to competitions which are fair and try to apply morality as if this was a fair medium to start. You can't talk about fair when no matter what you do, unless you drop the RPG out of it, you are likely not playing a fair game anyway. So trying to argue that they shouldn't be in the game based on fairness is just saying you prefer one bias over the other. Cash or time are merely methods to getting the unfair +X% that you use to win your encounters over someone who doesn't have them.
Being unable to make things perfectly fair is no excuse to not even try to balance things. That's just the law of the jungle, and I thought we had developed past that system.
More fair is better than less fair. Take what you can get.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2