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What gamers want
moonlightchz
Member Posts: 54
I read this in a review of WoW by ghog69. I think this echos the thoughts of many true hardcore MMO players.
On Feb 10, 2005 ghog69 wrote:
"The day a MMO developer creates a game where combat involves skill, and levels are nowhere to be found, will be the day they clean up in this genre. You simply cannot have casuals and powergamers playing side-by-side in an MMO. You cannot balance these games for both types, as they are too far apart in their approach to the game. WoW is still a very good MMO, one of the best, but I am continually disappointed in the genre. Too many issues that remain unsolved....PVP, balancing, griefing, loot, play time, etc. My average comes out to a 7.4 . My comments may rile some feathers, but hopefully more will admit their disappointment with the genre and convince a dev somewhere to create the game people really DO want. In the race to get on the MMORPG money bandwagon, devs still seem to be TELLING the gamers what we want, instead of listening to what we SAY we want."
We all have our own various ideas as to how this can happen. but this is a general outline of why so many gamers are upset with the current MMOs on the shelf.
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agreed but there are flaws in FPS' which MMOs fix:
FPSs tend to be military or Scifi based
Normally solo play with a story line every one follows
the closest to an MMO in an FPS is a 16 player game max.
i love MMOs for the competition with other players in real time, and the social aspect. it would be awesome if the two genres could be fused together.
also, an MMO doesnt have to be either point and click (teribly boring) or FPS style (too fast pased for some) an MMO with the ability to dodge attacks, aim at the enemy, have weak spots (like the head, limbs, heart etc) and have puzzles as well (like in some FPS and platform games)... now that would make an awesome MMO
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The title "What Gamers Want" is simply too provacative and highly inaccurate. I don't want what you want, you don't want what I want, and neither of us wants what someone else wants...this goes on forever.
It is impossible to satisfy everyone. Games that tend toward generalist behavior are often criticised for their lack of focus, and games that focus heavily on niche are often criticised for neglecting the interests of large groups of people. Hence, the idea that "[all] gamers want X" is a fallicy. You may love PvP, but I hate it...make a game with PvP, and I won't play it. Make a game without PvP, and you won't play it. Make a game with mixed PvP and we're probably both pissed off about the class imbalances, griefer rules exploits, etc...
I prefer an alternative point of view: play the game that interests you the most. It's not hard these days to find games that celebrate a niche you enjoy a great deal. The trouble may be finding a game with enough convergence of these interests to hold your interest for a long while. As we get more titles in the market, the odds increase you'll find a combination that suits you best.
It is in this light that I typically celebrate every seemily-redundant release that is put into the market. Each slice of the pie further segments the community into a broader convergence of interests. How many threads populate these and other forums that use a mix-and-match feature list to describe the "perfect game?" The more options there are for the gamer, the greater the probability that a game will suit your interests beautifully.
In the end, these are all derivative products that typically do not reinvent the genre. Revolutions and innovation is rare, but evolution is gradual and constant. You simply will not see a revolutionary product every year, nor should you expect to...revolutions often fail, and highly innovative ideas more often than not fall completely flat. Gamers are fickle, and companies don't like making games that gamers don't want to play.
I do agree with ianubisi ..
Its obvious that companies have it hard to try and walk into unprooven paths , to high is the risk of a flop . And since for us a game is fun , but for 'em its business you wont see a lot of unexpected revolution .
Except when the time comes and the players are so fed up and bored from the genre that maybe something like that is required .
Anyway there is something else too .
The games are going into the " astounishing graphics but lesser depth direction" If they would use that calculating power to implement a lot more ideas with slightly lower graphics ....
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"Neon Light" Eon Night
As some things can be right and useless, can't some things be wrong and priceless? -Viktor Suikoden I
Skill in an FPS and skill in a MMORPG are 2 different things. In an FPS it's about reflexes, and knowledge of the plying area, which is why a 13 year ruled the quake tournament for ages.
In an RPG it is about knowlege of you class. Some classes might be simple to play, such a warrior. You shoot an arrow to pull the mob then hit auto attack until dead. But other classes have aggro management, crowd control, advanced pulling tactics, and so on, all of which requires a good knowledge of your class based on playing experience.
In an RPG why should someone who doesnt play very much be rewarded the same as someone who plays often.
I think you miss the point. Let me ask this. Why should someone who plays 6 hours a night be far better than someone that plays for 2, because they have had the time to get superior gear? They are only better due to time invested, not ability, or skill.
But new MMORPGs are starting to immerge that require more than just play time to be good. Combat will require skill, knowledge of the mob, strengths, weaknesses, using the spells/abilities/attacks at appropriate times.
Personally I don't want to play a game where you just target a mob and hit attack. I want mobs to have good AI. to run off and call for help, to use attack combos, or spells, to port out when low on HP, and I want to be forced to learn to fight them, and be rewarded for success. The player that invests more time will not be punished because they have MORE time to learn better tactics. But they won't be better JUST because they play more.
A 13 year old player will not "pwn" a 33 year old JUST because they camped the same bunch of mobs for many more hours to get uber gear.
I've never felt like I was using any great amount of skill when playing a FPS. After the inital 6 hours of learning the maps and getting a feel for the aiming system it rarely came down to skill. Its ridiculous easy to aim in all the FPS I've played. (Halo, HL, UT, CS) and most of the fights came down to whoever saw the other first. If by some odd chance I came upon another guy in a headlong fight it usually came down to whoever was wielding the better gun.
On the other hand I often feel rather challenged when fighting a skilled player in a fighting game. It rarely comes down to luck since you're it's just a head on fight on equal terms (unless you pick on other lower tier fighters just to handicap yourself) and an "unskilled" person would have a hard time beating a "skilled" one. This is based on my experiance playing in competitons in Soul Calibur, Virtual Fighter, various incarnations of Street Fighter, and hell, even Super Smash Brothers.
I suppose it would be nifty to incorparate an actual fighting system into a MMO, though I don't really know how it could be done. Most fully 3d fighting games are rather poor and even if a decent system was invented, I don't know what could be done about the lag.
This was the point I was trying to make. There are plenty of FPS and MMO games out there, but none of those really require any skills. I'll give a little ground and say that veteran FPS players do have a bit of advantage on more inexperienced players, but it doesn't take long to become a champion. Fighters provide a much greater challenge, since you're relying on your knowledge of your characters moves and abilities and your skill in using those abilities at just the right time in order to bring down your opponent.
I'm not offering suggestions, telling you what you should like or trying to revolutionize. I'm giving ideas (the purpose of a forum...). It's apparent that MMOs are incredibly level-based which equates to hacking at characters until your index finger goes numb.
The idea is, I'd like to see a game that wasn't level-based. There should be some MMO where levels and gear take a backseat to style, finesse and reaction time. This is simply an argument of real skill against playtime. Again, I agree that implementing something like this would be difficult and is hard to imagine, but it would be nice...
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All I want in an MMORPG is fun, challenging and tactical combat in both PvE and PvP, and the ability to shape the world even if just a bit. Like, being the owner of a nice little PvE town that you just conquered with a few guildies.
No game even comes closely near that. So I'm playing WoW till Dark and Light arrives.
But wasn't UO totally skilled based back in the day? And i hear Mourning is planned to be just skills - no levels.
I think the market will move towards skill-based games (ie, your character has different skills that can be fine tuned rather than going up a generic level) but i also think we need more hands-on control. I mean maybe be able to move around, dodge, block - not totally twitched base like in an FPS but not just "point n click". I have to say i think the combat in Matrix and Roma Victor looks interesting although i have no idea how exciting it'll actually be.
You people who say FPS's take no skill are clueless. They are not about who sees who first. If you've ever seen a game like CS played at a professional level I think you would change your mind. Only a very small part of FPS skill involve twitch skill.
To add a bit.
Im not saying that MMORPG take no skill; that would be an idiotic statement. Skill is one of the very core reason we play games. If there is no skill involved in a game, the game is very shallow. Skill can come in many forms. It can be twitch, tatics, teamwork, strategy, and knowledge. Each form of skill is present to different degrees depending on the genre of the game. As long as a players think they are getting better at a game or there is more to learn in a game they will keep playing. This may be the very reason players are becoming bored with the curret batch of recently released MMORPG. A lot of the skill in MMORPG involves gathering knowledge, knowledge that a lot of veterans already possess.
I wrot a very, very long post about skill in MMORPGs on the Vanguard Forums.
Player Skill post
This isn't really fair as the review forum is not the place to go into a diatribe about my issues with the MMO genre. I stated my opinion about WoW, at the same time stating it's and the genres' shortcomings (IMHO) as a way to enlighten others who may feel the same. Really all I was saying was WoW is a very good game, but doesn't solve many of the issues most MMOs face. So, if you are unsatisfied with the current state of the genre, WOW may not change that fact. Suggesting fixes for WoW and the genre would take pages, most of which noone would read. Blizz obviously has its own vision for WoW and they are sticking to it. I can't blame them, but they are doing nothing to improve the genre. They are not alone in that though, so no real fault to them. Still, I will think about it and post some suggestions that I might have. If anything, it makes for great dialogue.
But it's those kind of "skills" that I'm talking about. When you're playing Super Smash Bros. and you get ten kills in a row against Capt. Falco using Pikachu (arguably the worst character in the game), that's skill.
When you beat Chun Li with Ryu without even coming within punching distance in Marvel vs Capcom; that's skill.
Leveling a char in an MMORPG by sitting in front of the screen for hours at a time... that's hardly skill. At least not anymore.
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But it's those kind of "skills" that I'm talking about. When you're playing Super Smash Bros. and you get ten kills in a row against Capt. Falco using Pikachu (arguably the worst character in the game), that's skill.
When you beat Chun Li with Ryu without even coming within punching distance in Marvel vs Capcom; that's skill.
Leveling a char in an MMORPG by sitting in front of the screen for hours at a time... that's hardly skill. At least not anymore.
See there is this inherent bias in what you have written that twitching = skills. That's not the case. It takes a lot of skill to figure out how to trade effectively in EVE, for example. It is not twitching and button mashing skill, it is grey-matter thinking skill and planning skill. "Skill as a gamer" does not = ability to manipulate various buttons on a keyboard quickly. That's one type of gaming skill only. There are others. The key is finding a game that challenges the skill that you have and/or enjoy using.
So you think that a player that spends 40 hours a week playing, should have on the same level as a player that plays 2 hours a week?
That has got to be the single dumbest thing I have heard on this forum.
Im sorry, but there should be a Major difference in gameplay for someone who invests a ton of hours, vs someone who invests the minimum. That is not to say it should not be fun for both, It should be fun for all levels of players. But to expect to have access to the same kinds of things that someone investing 4 times the amount of time you are is utterly absurd.
Back on topic, Imo the level system needs to be done away with, Period. It serves no purpose other then making balancing easier for PVE, and adding one horrendous timesink. UO did it right with the skill tree, you gained skills by Practicing them. You could practice them in town to a limited degree, but to truly master skills you had to go fight progressively harder stuff. And the more your fought, depending on your choices of what you fought with, your attributes also Raised.
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You're talking about something else entirely. This is a critique on the battle system, not of MMORPGs as a whole. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
And you're right here, everyone should play something they enjoy. But is there such a game that can utilize the skills I'm talking about? I haven't found one...
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Ok then Kindly explain to me on what my incentive is to play the game more then a couple hours a week, if in the end we accomplish the same. What is my incentive to keep paying $15+ a month for a game that I get a max of a few hours enjoyment out of?
I would dearly love to hear your explaination.
So you think that a player that spends 40 hours a week playing, should have on the same level as a player that plays 2 hours a week?
That has got to be the single dumbest thing I have heard on this forum.
Im sorry, but there should be a Major difference in gameplay for someone who invests a ton of hours, vs someone who invests the minimum. That is not to say it should not be fun for both, It should be fun for all levels of players. But to expect to have access to the same kinds of things that someone investing 4 times the amount of time you are is utterly absurd.
Back on topic, Imo the level system needs to be done away with, Period. It serves no purpose other then making balancing easier for PVE, and adding one horrendous timesink. UO did it right with the skill tree, you gained skills by Practicing them. You could practice them in town to a limited degree, but to truly master skills you had to go fight progressively harder stuff. And the more your fought, depending on your choices of what you fought with, your attributes also Raised.
No, im saying that a level 5 should have as much FUN as a level 35. Not be at the same level or be as powerful. RPG does NOT mean 'Really for Power-Gamers'. Those who play less should be able to enjoy it as much.
[quote]Im sorry, but there should be a Major difference in gameplay for someone who invests a ton of hours, vs someone who invests the minimum. That is not to say it should not be fun for both, It should be fun for all levels of players. But to expect to have access to the same kinds of things that someone investing 4 times the amount of time you are is utterly absurd.[/quote]
I think this is inherently one of the reasons why MMOs 'fail' with a large % of gamers. The primary aspects of an MMO are leveling and the aquisition of items. One generally has more success, the more time invested, hence casuals are 'left behind'. Either the devs cater to the powergamer, a rather difficult minority to constantly create content for, or go toward the friendlier majority casual gamer. One is certainly more dedicated to the game, so as long as the devs can keep the content flowing; the other less dedicated to any one game, but easier for the devs to keep pace with as far as new content goes.
Either way, one group is usually left out. Sacrifices are made to the game in the interest of balance. Usually it is the casual gamer and for good reason. The concept of a MMORPG doesn't support 'part-time' play. Can a casual gamer fully enjoy a MMO? Obviously yes, at least until they begin to compete with the hardcore. As humans are quite competitive, this is inevitable for many. The problem then begins with the realization that they cannot hope to keep pace with the powergamer. The dismay at not ever being able to farm Mob X for that Elite weapon with a .0002 drop rate leads to frustration and cries of "nerf", "cheating" and "at least I have a life."
I think this directly relates to balancing as well. The variables between a dozen classes, hundreds of skills and 60 levels, dozens of mobs/NPCs and then the PVE and PVP playstyles between a casual and a hardcore gamer, must be overwhelming to a dev. Take out a few variables and things become a little more manageable. For instance leave out levels, the powergaming audience and cater only towards PVP play (just an example). Would a company, trying to attach itself to the largest number of subscribers, do this though, limiting itself to a smaller playerbase in the interests of balance and efficiency? (Hell, how about a FUN game, not a second job!) Maybe some of the smaller ones, but certainly not the WoWs and EQs of the world. We have seen attempts to focus on certain aspects of gameplay....Shadowbane anyone? ...and some on the horizon promise it (Mourning and GW...and I'm sure others), but will we ever truly ever see a 'perfect' Massively Multiplayer Game? Is it possible for a MMORPG to be able to cater to individuals with different goals, playstyles and dedication levels, in the same universe and keep everything in balance? Are MMOs inherently flawed? Time will tell, but my patience is wearing thin with them.
Should have made that a bit more clear the first time.
I agree that you should have just as much fun in the low levels as the high levels. I doubt you will find any gamer that will disagree to that.
I'm not saying you shouldn't get just as much enjoyment as I do. I'm saying that leveling isn't based on real skill. Beefing up a warrior class char in a game takes little effort and after several days of straight gameplay (involving nothing more than pointing and clicking at enemies in many cases) you're much stronger than someone who puts 2 hours a day into their char. This is an unfair system to me, not because one has invested more time in the game than I have, but because the 'leveling' system itself isn't a good measure of fighting skill (what you call "twitching").
Ninja Gaiden (both the Xbox and Nintendo versions) is a great example of a system that does not invole leveling to go further into the game. The better you get with that blade, the better your enemies get and the further you progress. The only noticable leveling you do is increase HP, which isn't really necessary if you're good.
I'm not saying that all games should change to incorporate my way of thinking. You may, and probably do, disagree with me. What I'm saying is that there is no game that caters to fighter skills to gain ground in the game. All games are level-based or "skill-based". Skill-based being another word for leveling. It's really just a bunch of numbers that means "I've played longer than you so I'm obviously better" which isn't necessarily the case. Just because you've played for countless hours doesn't mean you can beat me in a real match.
People who think like I do don't have game that we can call our own... I'd much like to see one. As to how it would actually be implemented would take some serious planning since most 3D fighters suck but if it could be pulled off I'd be blissfully happy as I'm sure plenty of other gamers would.
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I'm not saying you shouldn't get just as much enjoyment as I do. I'm saying that leveling isn't based on real skill. Beefing up a warrior class char in a game takes little effort and after several days of straight gameplay (involving nothing more than pointing and clicking at enemies in many cases) you're much stronger than someone who puts 2 hours a day into their char. This is an unfair system to me, not because one has invested more time in the game than I have, but because the 'leveling' system itself isn't a good measure of fighting skill (what you call "twitching").
Ninja Gaiden (both the Xbox and Nintendo versions) is a great example of a system that does not invole leveling to go further into the game. The better you get with that blade, the better your enemies get and the further you progress. The only noticable leveling you do is increase HP, which isn't really necessary if you're good.
I'm not saying that all games should change to incorporate my way of thinking. You may, and probably do, disagree with me. What I'm saying is that there is no game that caters to fighter skills to gain ground in the game. All games are level-based or "skill-based". Skill-based being another word for leveling. It's really just a bunch of numbers that means "I've played longer than you so I'm obviously better" which isn't necessarily the case. Just because you've played for countless hours doesn't mean you can beat me in a real match.
People who think like I do don't have game that we can call our own... I'd much like to see one. As to how it would actually be implemented would take some serious planning since most 3D fighters suck but if it could be pulled off I'd be blissfully happy as I'm sure plenty of other gamers would.
I agree with both arguments, hence why I think the current MMO philosophy is flawed. Time to head in a new direction.