Sounds like you're blaming people for playing a game you don't like.
In a sense, that's true. But using STO as an example, it's not that I don't like the game itself. I see a ton of potential there, and there's definitely some fantastic core ideas. But it's blaringly obvious that the game is simply not ready to be taken out of the oven. Cryptic is totally aware of this. They know the games shortcomings more than anyone, and yet they still think it's ok to sell an unfinished product to customers for $50. Why? Because people will buy it.
I've talked to many STO fans (victims) who know damn well the game isn't finished, but have jumped onboard regardless just because they are loyal to the IP. Some feel that if they don't support these early months after launch, they game will fail (they're probably right) and they want the see the game in a finished state, so they're taking one for the team so to speak.
Do I blame them for STO being launched too early (thereby potentially dooming it to B-list MMO status)? Unfortunately, yes I do.
Those who unknowingly pick up the game not because they're MMO players, but ST fans looking for the newest ST game? No, of course I don't blame them. I feel bad for them, it's not a great welcoming to the MMO world.
But those of us who see this happen time and time again, and yet continue to jump on the 'day one' bandwagon, and putting up with unfinished messes, we bring it on ourselves.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Vote with your wallet. That's really all there is to it. As long as there are so many players desperate enough to preorder anything coming out the pipe, the publishers know they can bank on it, without having to put much effort into it. If gamers would just have some patience and wait a month or two after release to see what the critics say and whatnot, the industry would be in better shape in my opinion.
Any gamer that might feel screwed will talk with his wallet. No idea how you get the idea of posters wanting to get screwed. Every crossed your mind that some might simple enjoy the things you try to pretend are scams? And nope not defending anything, as that is what you probebly will see something like this just like you see scams from ALL company's, perhaps you need to relaxe and simply as said talk with the wallet as in not paying a dime to something YOU might feel is a scam, but then that seems to be very hard to do for certain type of people, hence topics like this appear. Currently playing Fallen Earth, taken years since a MMORPG has grabbed me like FE bet you might find something that might be a scam in your view or you might call things in it unfinished, atleast thats the idea of thought you seem to spread. I also know it's popular these day's to either call out Scams, Fail, bash and what ever.
Oh yes ,there is no question,however i call it blind faith.It is no different than wondering why MILLIONS support these 700 club religious shams we see on TV,many think you must be an idiot,but guess what,there they are ,making millions off of desperate people.
So i like to use the phrase"people supporting a product"weather or not they are enjoying it or having fun is not really the truth.As a matter of fact many days/months/years later, people soon come to realize they made a mistake or have no idea why they supported that game,many are just plain bored.It just takes some people longer than others to realize their mistakes and some people have no idea why they are blind followers.
You would have to be totally blind if you have not at least once in a game or forum seen people asking others"how to play THEIR player"...how should i build it,what is the best class to play,it is like people cannot think for themselves at all,and there is a ton of those people out there.In MANY cases people are just insecure,they would rather join the masses or the "IN" thing than be called a fool for playing such and such game or playing a class they might WANT to play,but is shunned by the masses,example..."IS the Coercer class wanted in end game ?"
Look no further than the Farming game trend,those games are the lowest grade of quality,they have no depth no design,just a simplistic cheap approach to turn out a buck,yet millions fall prey to this because it is a TREND the "IN" thing.Joe Blow could turn around and totally 100% copy one of the successful farming games,he will not make it big like they did,they already have the followers and the "IN" crowd following them.
Yes i agree with the others,you SHOULD speak out against these lame cheap ass developers,but it is every bit the fault of the consumer that supports these products.If you sit back and say nothing,then expect developers to assume everything is great,because many of them are as clueless as the followers are,they will look at that farming game and think,yep that is the design,lets make all out games like that from now on.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Vote with your wallet. That's really all there is to it. As long as there are so many players desperate enough to preorder anything coming out the pipe, the publishers know they can bank on it, without having to put much effort into it. If gamers would just have some patience and wait a month or two after release to see what the critics say and whatnot, the industry would be in better shape in my opinion.
been then again look at why they pre order they are bored or dislike the last game they preordered and want something new to get rid of the taste in thier mouth's of the last game
Hey Bob. That was a nice rant you have there. I don't want you to think that all MMOs do this.
I know, you're right. There's a ton of MMO developers out there doing things honestly.
While I started this thread to discuss the excuse "All publishers are doing it", I don't actually believe it.
I do think though, that the sentiment "everyones doing it" is very strong in the MMO business right now, and makes certain marketing execs think they can get away with selling us snake oil (which unfortunately, we keep buying).
Any gamer that might feel screwed will talk with his wallet. No idea how you get the idea of posters wanting to get screwed. Every crossed your mind that some might simple enjoy the things you try to pretend are scams? And nope not defending anything, as that is what you probebly will see something like this just like you see scams from ALL company's, perhaps you need to relaxe and simply as said talk with the wallet as in not paying a dime to something YOU might feel is a scam, but then that seems to be very hard to do for certain type of people, hence topics like this appear. Currently playing Fallen Earth, taken years since a MMORPG has grabbed me like FE bet you might find something that might be a scam in your view or you might call things in it unfinished, atleast thats the idea of thought you seem to spread. I also know it's popular these day's to either call out Scams, Fail, bash and what ever.
Oh yes ,there is no question,however i call it blind faith.It is no different than wondering why MILLIONS support these 700 club religious shams we see on TV,many think you must be an idiot,but guess what,there they are ,making millions off of desperate people.
So i like to use the phrase"people supporting a product"weather or not they are enjoying it or having fun is not really the truth.As a matter of fact many days/months/years later, people soon come to realize they made a mistake or have no idea why they supported that game,many are just plain bored.It just takes some people longer than others to realize their mistakes and some people have no idea why they are blind followers.
You would have to be totally blind if you have not at least once in a game or forum seen people asking others"how to play THEIR player"...how should i build it,what is the best class to play,it is like people cannot think for themselves at all,and there is a ton of those people out there.In MANY cases people are just insecure,they would rather join the masses or the "IN" thing than be called a fool for playing such and such game or playing a class they might WANT to play,but is shunned by the masses,example..."IS the Coercer class wanted in end game ?"
Look no further than the Farming game trend,those games are the lowest grade of quality,they have no depth no design,just a simplistic cheap approach to turn out a buck,yet millions fall prey to this because it is a TREND the "IN" thing.Joe Blow could turn around and totally 100% copy one of the successful farming games,he will not make it big like they did,they already have the followers and the "IN" crowd following them.
Yes i agree with the others,you SHOULD speak out against these lame cheap ass developers,but it is every bit the fault of the consumer that supports these products.If you sit back and say nothing,then expect developers to assume everything is great,because many of them are as clueless as the followers are,they will look at that farming game and think,yep that is the design,lets make all out games like that from now on.
Sorry cant let this go unanswered. Do your research b4 insulting religious groups. Not all of them are Jim Bakers or Jimmy Swaggart. I have couple frinds that do work for the 700 club and much of the money from the 700 club goes to helping people in remote countires get needed medical surgeries or medical supplies, building water wells in poor countires, helping victims of natural diasters, helping people in remote countires start businesses, getting people off drugs and alcholhol addictions, etc. What are you doing to help people less fortunate than you? Prob nothing.
Whith that said....Either play the game or dont. The real only solution is for an extreme amount of people to boycott playing all MMO's for a few days or not to buy any mmo coming out for the next few months. They'll get the message then. Problem is one person hate is another persons fun. Were all different that way.
(DDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH raises plunger in salute to the 700 club!)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Lansid: Voting with my wallet since my epic fail with pre-purchasing Tabula Rasa and Hellgate: London.
If you people want to send a message, stop pre-ordering shit. When a video game gets a few hundred thousand pre-orders half a year before release based on cinematic out-of-game trailers, concept art, hype, and the "open beta" paradox, the publishers get the message:
"We the people don't give a shit what state the game is in, we just want the product."
So they light a fire under the devs' asses. The devs. get the message:
"We want a game that plays like a race to the finish line, screw story, screw content, screw gameplay and all the useless "polish", just hurry the hell up."
I don't mean to sound like one of those old "vets" talking about how we walked to school in the snow uphill both ways... but back with Ultima Online and Everquest and Asheron's Call, people have nostalgic memories because of the lack of hype or expectations surrounding the genre. We talk about sandbox, theme-park, pve, pvp, open world, instanced, fantasy, sci-fi and their "niche" gatherings... in "the before times" the term "MMORPG" WAS a niche (i know i'm not counting muds, but I'm refering to the mainstream explosion and the expectations of the masses)!
We're dreaming of "Tomorrow-morrow land" and willing to take any potential savior today as our "Captain Walker" out of desperation and STILL have no expectations as if we were still living back in the 1990's. It's some psychological phenomenon that instead of buying a game, we're buying a ticket... and if we don't buy that ticket we will NEVER get that game after it launches like we're missing a train to happiness and be left to rot or something.
So TL;DR version... we made things the way they are, not the publishers or devs. If you want things to change, stop pre-ordering or buying games they day, week or in a MMO's case, month after they're released because you know the first 30 days are just an extended beta anyways. They don't care about your words, just your $'s. Speak your mind that way.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
1 time screwed here AoC, play sinds 99 so thats not bad over decade.
STO for me had to many signes saying dont buy it you won't like what they did with IP so i wont so not screwed.
Im star trek fan have all movies all series complete on DVD but this game seems not for me well at least not for 6 months when they still around and improve on game with klingons as playable race i concider maybe.
If you blindly buy games and then screwed its your own fault.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Many people I know wait for half a year (or a year) before buying a new MMOPRG. At least it's more or less finished and already "much improved" by then
(or they know they can save their money and skip the game altogether). The same for lacking content (or content lacking) updates:
just unsubscribe for some time and when you return there is enough to do again. I do not think that's stupid and I do agree with OP that companies are asking for such behavior.
Actually, when I think about it, it's quite strange most people let themselves get disappointed over and over again.
Your right about that wait 6 months.
And that people keep being screwed over and over again is beyond me i realy dont understand why people keep buying new games and then come to forum that game sucks lol.
Many companys deserver that people dont buy there game at launch, they realy have to chance there whole view on when to release a game and not half finished in long run customers will punishing this hard back to developers and stick with games they already play and dont buy unless there sure its a rather finished and polished game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
1 time screwed here AoC, play sinds 99 so thats not bad over decade. STO for me had to many signes saying dont buy it you won't like what they did with IP so i wont so not screwed. Im star trek fan have all movies all series complete on DVD but this game seems not for me well at least not for 6 months when they still around and improve on game with klingons as playable race i concider maybe. If you blindly buy games and then screwed its your own fault.
ok not saying customers shouldnt think for themselves but come on the company knew that all they had to do was slap a star trek sticker on anything about to roll out the door and it would sell like hot cakes so when does the company take responsibility for its own actions? They knew the star trek name would garner lots of ppl that arent mmo players and in order to make even more money abused the name to get as much money as it can before the game bottoms out
paying for playable races? thats just asinine hell i can say so what on name changes but to say hey here is sto and then to say afterwards oh btw after you bought the game you have to pay to play a character that most ppl would want to play is just shady
and sure maybe the customer shoulda thought about it but then the customer didnt expect to get royally shafted either
Same with Star Wars too... George Lucas is always looking for a way to whore out re-re-re-re-re-re release and repackage his Star Wars IP (I hear he's gearing up to re-release all his crap again in 3-D). I wouldn't be surprised if they will vomit forth another Battleshitfront with horrible multiplayer server functions... AGAIN. Maybe they can find someone WORSE than Pandemic to destroy more of my desire to think about paying another dime to the overhyped SW IP. But that's right, the new Star Wars: The Old Republic minus "Knights of the" will be a better experience because it's the latest edition of whoredom for the franchise... so long as it's new the masses will buy it. Lucas has proven that over and over again.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
A company gets a budget, and the lead developer says, I have this great idea. Here it is, all laid out. cool huh? And everyone says, yea, that is cool. How much? I can do that for 40 million dollars! Ok, let's get started. 3 or 4 years later about half the "cool" stuff is in the game, and the developers have now spent 50 million dollars. At which point someone says, uh, guys, you're over budget by 10 mill. Time to release. And they go, well, gee, it took longer than we thought, and some of those cool things turned out to be pretty hard. Can we have another 10 mill? And realizing the developers will do this until they spend a Billion dollars, the investors go, no, we're releasing. Hope we can make our money back. Ta da! Another pos release. They don't do it on purpose. They just think the can accomplish more than they really can, and they run out of money.
The problem is, the developer probably knew it was going to cost $50 million and take 5 years but they didn't want to be honest about it to investors who might have balked. Therefore they said $40 million and 4 years, knowing full well there was no way in hell they could do it, but figuring that by the time it got 4 years in, the investors wouldn't want to lose $40 million and would go for the extra money.
Unrealistic expectations are the sign of a bad team to begin with, but most of these teams have done it before, they know how to make an MMO, they know how to make games, they aren't biting off more than they can chew, they're just making claims they cannot realistically keep in hopes of getting the money.
It's sad but over time developers are releasing products not finished because the big boys with the wallets keep pushing to make more money.
I'm not going to use STO, but WAR as an example, the Mythic team was doing an excellent job, those in early closed beta know that they were listening to the testers, fixing bugs as they were found, and the game was actually fun. Their big publisher with the wallet (EA) rushed them to release not only to make extra money by keeping fanbase, but to beat AoC and the WoW expansion, this resulted in having to cut classes and entire cities from release, in the process it left some loose ends that plagued the game after release, deterred potential players. We were barely starting to test T4 after some big changes (we tested T4 way back when the Choppa was still in beta but there was a lot of missing content), only to have the flood gates of the pre order open up on us, and soon after that release, the result? Those that played know how boring T4 ended up as, how repetitive it got, how nightmarish the last Fortress before a city was, all of that could have been fixed, or at least given a red flag as possible problem if there had been more testing.
After WAR it seems that MMO developer/publishers just want to initial revenue, not caring about the long term, closed betas that were a privilege and honor to test a game and help the developers iron out the game, got turned into a cash machine by "offering" it if you pre ordered the game, so you get people that just want to play or find exploits before release instead of wanting to fix the game and make it better. Obviously the developers don't care either, as lately they make a mockery of the testing (even more) by having set days and times that players are allowed to test, instead of having a permanent world running all the time, which makes more sense as the servers will be running all day and night with players in them, I believe this used to be called "consistency and stability testing", obviously by the previous MMO releases this type of testing is not in their high priority. So when open beta arrives (used to be called stress testing) the login server overloads, the game server can't remain stable, and hell breaks loose, this starts killing the fanbase of the MMO, slowly but steady. But I guess no one can do as bad as Aion did, entire ISP's were blocking them in different states, think that was the first time I've seen that!
Another bad problem that it's beginning to be the "standard" is queue to join a server, I believe this started with WoW (correct me if I'm wrong), why do you want to pay $15 a month to sit in a queue for 45mins or more (someone insert a Aion queue pic) is beyond me, I pay for a service that's running 24/7, why when I want to access it I need to wait? when you turn on your PC, and open your browser, do you need to wait 45mins or an hour before your internet kicks in? same concept. Now we go to STO, they announced, boasted and were proud to say that the game would be one huge server for the entire world, and now there's a queue for it? there's 1 server for thousands if not hundred of thousands of players, for only 5-10k to get in at the same time? They should have thought this better, the queue as bad as it is, was somewhat acceptable in other games because you could simply go to another server, enjoy the game you're playing for, in STO there are no more servers.
It is sad, but the one problem that remains a constant is the majority of the players just shrugging it off, this tells the developers and publishers that they can do what they want without worrying too much, yes some of those games are dead, dieing or limping atm, but the problem persist that we allow it enough for the next developer to keep doing it or making it worse.
Yes all the MMO's release with problems, bugs, incomplete and with the chance to blow up and give you a rash, but it's getting worse, only the players can demand and force developers and publishers to do things the right way, simply don't pre order, don't buy the game until it is proven that the game is up to the standard every player deserves for the money they are investing.
I really dont understand why someone would have an issue with optional additional content. They do not cost much money, and have no effect of the gameplay at all. They are just vanity pets/costumes etc usually.
People are all up in arms about the races in Star Trek but doesnt the character creator basically allow you to create anything youd like? People need to stop focusing on the principles of the issue and think with their own brains. You are not being wronged in any way. You still have a choice.
MMORPGs are a strange new genre for gaming (by new, I mean alot of people focusing on it). Things will get better, and they are. But they will all start the same way. A company needs to generate a ton of buzz to even make an mmorpg. These are expensive to create, and unlike other games, have significant costs to continue running. They also need to add content, and fix balance/bug issues. If someone out there wants to buy a panda costume so I can get some new content, I dont care. I am not angry that they get something and I dont like a little kid.
Although I wish mmorpg companies would do a little more to "thank us" for subscribing. I am really surprised that a company hasnt thought of giving items or cool little pets/costumes when you pay their subscription fee. I think games keep failing because people expect tons of new stuff, and dont subscribe after the first month because of the lack of new things. People are thinking more and more short term, and because tons and tons of new games come out, games never get a chance to show themselves. I find this frustrating because my longest mmorpg experience is world of warcraft, and I have been with it since the day it came out. It was not very great in the beginning, but now it really feels like a world I belong to. My characters have been with me for years. I am patient with a new mmorpg, and understand what is going to happen.
People also need to realize that a new mmorpg is just a foundation for the actual game. I hate when people refer to a new release as a "paid beta" and things like that because this genre isnt like other video game genres. You are basically buying into the world they create. You have to trust that they will develope and add to that world.
The first month or two should be all about developing relationships in game and working on the community of the game while the developers get everything stable and smooth. At least thats how I think of it. How many times have you looked into a new game and thought "man I wish I was there since the beginning". It gives you an odd "left out" feeling. Even if the game isnt finished or perfect, there are a ton of people there with you figuring everything out. My best online friend came from WoW, and we met on one of the first days when he helped with the druid bear form quest, because I had no idea. That is the kind of thing that makes an MMORPG. The people.
Otherwise we could just be playing offline games still.
In light of today's STO launching half baked (and with a new RMT scam to boot), I just want to get people to weigh in on this lame excuse to screw customers over. We've all seen posters use it to justify something that is wrong with an MMO. "It's not just Cryptic... or SOE... or Blizzard (yadayada)... ALL MMO Companies are doing it, so stop complaining." Whether that means launching a game unfinished, or selling that must have item at a premium, or (gulp) revamping a beloved game into oblivion (or whatever these scammer companies are doing to pi$$ people off). Why do people defend heinous actions of MMO pub/devs just because other MMO pub/devs do the same thing? Most importantly, if ALL MMO companies are doing it, WHY should we stop complaining? You'd think that would mean we should be complaining MORE! Do the posters who use this excuse actually WANT to get screwed?
the fact that all mmo companies are doing it only makes it more obvious of how much more we should all be complaining so yes i agree. It is just to bad the people that actualy matter (the people who don't speak out) are either just not playing and the other half have no reason to leave world of warcraft. I've been saying it for a while now "Even a shitty movie can make money on an awesome trailer."
That is what each and every one of you buy every single time. "An Awesome Trailer." Foaming at the mouth at every single new release to hit the market because it "looks cool" or because it says Star Trek. Honestly if it didnt say star trek how long would those of you that play it honestly keep up with that game? Don't answer that because i allready know. And so do the devs,
I've seen which companies say, "everyone is doing it." What I don't understand is why they fail to see that this particular "everyone" is experiencing subscription bleed, closing games altogether, changing business models, endlessly revamping, losing their investors and having to lay off staff.
"Everyone" that does "it" seems to end up in the red. Games like WoW and EVE didn't do it, and they experienced growth; one was explosive and the other slow and steady. I guess "everyone" is really a club of greedy, failing MMO development houses pointing at each other to justify their actions and holding summits to discuss how to shoot themselves in the other foot.
I really dont understand why someone would have an issue with optional additional content. They do not cost much money, and have no effect of the gameplay at all. They are just vanity pets/costumes etc usually
Well, actually, costumes and similar stuff are very important to many players. I'll try to explain why.
Except the people valiantly trying to actually roleplay in a (supposed to be) role playing game (in which case costumes do have an effect in gameplay), others just want unique looks so they can be recognized in victory pictures (preferrably not as "the guy without the beard") and still others just want to look nice instead of whatever ugly armor set the game developers have designed
(or even worse, mainly on lower levels: mismatched armor pieces). For fans of a specific "world", Trekkies for instance, things like "lore" and "costumes" are often a Big Thing.
But usually, the "optional additional content" usually isn't the only thing people have issues with...
“Otherwise we could just be playing offline games still.”
I do not believe this will be an option in the future; every single game that comes out will have an online element. Originally the drive to online was to increase gameplay interest and we saw a slow uptake of games into a live online mode. But now they see the possibility of extra money being raked in there has been an explosion in online titles, gaming companies want that extra cash.
This in turn will shape the nature of your online experience. Lobbies and achievements do not generate money. Cash shops and a points system which is interchangeable for money do. So you will see more ane more of the online structure of games becoming a platform to generate money.
“Otherwise we could just be playing offline games still.”
I do not believe this will be an option in the future; every single game that comes out will have an online element. Originally the drive to online was to increase gameplay interest and we saw a slow uptake of games into a live online mode. But now they see the possibility of extra money being raked in there has been an explosion in online titles, gaming companies want that extra cash.
This in turn will shape the nature of your online experience. Lobbies and achievements do not generate money. Cash shops and a points system which is interchangeable for money do. So you will see more ane more of the online structure of games becoming a platform to generate money.
You've certainly got a point there.
The other side of that coin of course, is that online content is currently not widely pirated (piratable?), which encourages the consumer to buy the legit copy in order to grab the DLC/online components. That's why you're seeing alot of companies release DLC for free on launch day.
Comments
Sounds like you're blaming people for playing a game you don't like.
In a sense, that's true. But using STO as an example, it's not that I don't like the game itself. I see a ton of potential there, and there's definitely some fantastic core ideas. But it's blaringly obvious that the game is simply not ready to be taken out of the oven. Cryptic is totally aware of this. They know the games shortcomings more than anyone, and yet they still think it's ok to sell an unfinished product to customers for $50. Why? Because people will buy it.
I've talked to many STO fans (victims) who know damn well the game isn't finished, but have jumped onboard regardless just because they are loyal to the IP. Some feel that if they don't support these early months after launch, they game will fail (they're probably right) and they want the see the game in a finished state, so they're taking one for the team so to speak.
Do I blame them for STO being launched too early (thereby potentially dooming it to B-list MMO status)? Unfortunately, yes I do.
Those who unknowingly pick up the game not because they're MMO players, but ST fans looking for the newest ST game? No, of course I don't blame them. I feel bad for them, it's not a great welcoming to the MMO world.
But those of us who see this happen time and time again, and yet continue to jump on the 'day one' bandwagon, and putting up with unfinished messes, we bring it on ourselves.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
That's absolutely true.
Oh yes ,there is no question,however i call it blind faith.It is no different than wondering why MILLIONS support these 700 club religious shams we see on TV,many think you must be an idiot,but guess what,there they are ,making millions off of desperate people.
So i like to use the phrase"people supporting a product"weather or not they are enjoying it or having fun is not really the truth.As a matter of fact many days/months/years later, people soon come to realize they made a mistake or have no idea why they supported that game,many are just plain bored.It just takes some people longer than others to realize their mistakes and some people have no idea why they are blind followers.
You would have to be totally blind if you have not at least once in a game or forum seen people asking others"how to play THEIR player"...how should i build it,what is the best class to play,it is like people cannot think for themselves at all,and there is a ton of those people out there.In MANY cases people are just insecure,they would rather join the masses or the "IN" thing than be called a fool for playing such and such game or playing a class they might WANT to play,but is shunned by the masses,example..."IS the Coercer class wanted in end game ?"
Look no further than the Farming game trend,those games are the lowest grade of quality,they have no depth no design,just a simplistic cheap approach to turn out a buck,yet millions fall prey to this because it is a TREND the "IN" thing.Joe Blow could turn around and totally 100% copy one of the successful farming games,he will not make it big like they did,they already have the followers and the "IN" crowd following them.
Yes i agree with the others,you SHOULD speak out against these lame cheap ass developers,but it is every bit the fault of the consumer that supports these products.If you sit back and say nothing,then expect developers to assume everything is great,because many of them are as clueless as the followers are,they will look at that farming game and think,yep that is the design,lets make all out games like that from now on.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
been then again look at why they pre order they are bored or dislike the last game they preordered and want something new to get rid of the taste in thier mouth's of the last game
I know, you're right. There's a ton of MMO developers out there doing things honestly.
While I started this thread to discuss the excuse "All publishers are doing it", I don't actually believe it.
I do think though, that the sentiment "everyones doing it" is very strong in the MMO business right now, and makes certain marketing execs think they can get away with selling us snake oil (which unfortunately, we keep buying).
Oh yes ,there is no question,however i call it blind faith.It is no different than wondering why MILLIONS support these 700 club religious shams we see on TV,many think you must be an idiot,but guess what,there they are ,making millions off of desperate people.
So i like to use the phrase"people supporting a product"weather or not they are enjoying it or having fun is not really the truth.As a matter of fact many days/months/years later, people soon come to realize they made a mistake or have no idea why they supported that game,many are just plain bored.It just takes some people longer than others to realize their mistakes and some people have no idea why they are blind followers.
You would have to be totally blind if you have not at least once in a game or forum seen people asking others"how to play THEIR player"...how should i build it,what is the best class to play,it is like people cannot think for themselves at all,and there is a ton of those people out there.In MANY cases people are just insecure,they would rather join the masses or the "IN" thing than be called a fool for playing such and such game or playing a class they might WANT to play,but is shunned by the masses,example..."IS the Coercer class wanted in end game ?"
Look no further than the Farming game trend,those games are the lowest grade of quality,they have no depth no design,just a simplistic cheap approach to turn out a buck,yet millions fall prey to this because it is a TREND the "IN" thing.Joe Blow could turn around and totally 100% copy one of the successful farming games,he will not make it big like they did,they already have the followers and the "IN" crowd following them.
Yes i agree with the others,you SHOULD speak out against these lame cheap ass developers,but it is every bit the fault of the consumer that supports these products.If you sit back and say nothing,then expect developers to assume everything is great,because many of them are as clueless as the followers are,they will look at that farming game and think,yep that is the design,lets make all out games like that from now on.
Sorry cant let this go unanswered. Do your research b4 insulting religious groups. Not all of them are Jim Bakers or Jimmy Swaggart. I have couple frinds that do work for the 700 club and much of the money from the 700 club goes to helping people in remote countires get needed medical surgeries or medical supplies, building water wells in poor countires, helping victims of natural diasters, helping people in remote countires start businesses, getting people off drugs and alcholhol addictions, etc. What are you doing to help people less fortunate than you? Prob nothing.
Whith that said....Either play the game or dont. The real only solution is for an extreme amount of people to boycott playing all MMO's for a few days or not to buy any mmo coming out for the next few months. They'll get the message then. Problem is one person hate is another persons fun. Were all different that way.
(DDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH raises plunger in salute to the 700 club!)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Many people I know wait for half a year (or a year) before buying a new MMOPRG.
At least it's more or less finished and already "much improved" by then
(or they know they can save their money and skip the game altogether).
The same for lacking content (or content lacking) updates:
just unsubscribe for some time and when you return there is enough to do again.
I do not think that's stupid and I do agree with OP that companies are asking for such behavior.
Actually, when I think about it, it's quite strange most people let themselves get disappointed over and over again.
Lansid: Voting with my wallet since my epic fail with pre-purchasing Tabula Rasa and Hellgate: London.
If you people want to send a message, stop pre-ordering shit. When a video game gets a few hundred thousand pre-orders half a year before release based on cinematic out-of-game trailers, concept art, hype, and the "open beta" paradox, the publishers get the message:
"We the people don't give a shit what state the game is in, we just want the product."
So they light a fire under the devs' asses. The devs. get the message:
"We want a game that plays like a race to the finish line, screw story, screw content, screw gameplay and all the useless "polish", just hurry the hell up."
I don't mean to sound like one of those old "vets" talking about how we walked to school in the snow uphill both ways... but back with Ultima Online and Everquest and Asheron's Call, people have nostalgic memories because of the lack of hype or expectations surrounding the genre. We talk about sandbox, theme-park, pve, pvp, open world, instanced, fantasy, sci-fi and their "niche" gatherings... in "the before times" the term "MMORPG" WAS a niche (i know i'm not counting muds, but I'm refering to the mainstream explosion and the expectations of the masses)!
We're dreaming of "Tomorrow-morrow land" and willing to take any potential savior today as our "Captain Walker" out of desperation and STILL have no expectations as if we were still living back in the 1990's. It's some psychological phenomenon that instead of buying a game, we're buying a ticket... and if we don't buy that ticket we will NEVER get that game after it launches like we're missing a train to happiness and be left to rot or something.
So TL;DR version... we made things the way they are, not the publishers or devs. If you want things to change, stop pre-ordering or buying games they day, week or in a MMO's case, month after they're released because you know the first 30 days are just an extended beta anyways. They don't care about your words, just your $'s. Speak your mind that way.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
1 time screwed here AoC, play sinds 99 so thats not bad over decade.
STO for me had to many signes saying dont buy it you won't like what they did with IP so i wont so not screwed.
Im star trek fan have all movies all series complete on DVD but this game seems not for me well at least not for 6 months when they still around and improve on game with klingons as playable race i concider maybe.
If you blindly buy games and then screwed its your own fault.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Your right about that wait 6 months.
And that people keep being screwed over and over again is beyond me i realy dont understand why people keep buying new games and then come to forum that game sucks lol.
Many companys deserver that people dont buy there game at launch, they realy have to chance there whole view on when to release a game and not half finished in long run customers will punishing this hard back to developers and stick with games they already play and dont buy unless there sure its a rather finished and polished game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
ok not saying customers shouldnt think for themselves but come on the company knew that all they had to do was slap a star trek sticker on anything about to roll out the door and it would sell like hot cakes so when does the company take responsibility for its own actions? They knew the star trek name would garner lots of ppl that arent mmo players and in order to make even more money abused the name to get as much money as it can before the game bottoms out
paying for playable races? thats just asinine hell i can say so what on name changes but to say hey here is sto and then to say afterwards oh btw after you bought the game you have to pay to play a character that most ppl would want to play is just shady
and sure maybe the customer shoulda thought about it but then the customer didnt expect to get royally shafted either
Same with Star Wars too... George Lucas is always looking for a way to whore out re-re-re-re-re-re release and repackage his Star Wars IP (I hear he's gearing up to re-release all his crap again in 3-D). I wouldn't be surprised if they will vomit forth another Battleshitfront with horrible multiplayer server functions... AGAIN. Maybe they can find someone WORSE than Pandemic to destroy more of my desire to think about paying another dime to the overhyped SW IP. But that's right, the new Star Wars: The Old Republic minus "Knights of the" will be a better experience because it's the latest edition of whoredom for the franchise... so long as it's new the masses will buy it. Lucas has proven that over and over again.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
The problem is, the developer probably knew it was going to cost $50 million and take 5 years but they didn't want to be honest about it to investors who might have balked. Therefore they said $40 million and 4 years, knowing full well there was no way in hell they could do it, but figuring that by the time it got 4 years in, the investors wouldn't want to lose $40 million and would go for the extra money.
Unrealistic expectations are the sign of a bad team to begin with, but most of these teams have done it before, they know how to make an MMO, they know how to make games, they aren't biting off more than they can chew, they're just making claims they cannot realistically keep in hopes of getting the money.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
It's sad but over time developers are releasing products not finished because the big boys with the wallets keep pushing to make more money.
I'm not going to use STO, but WAR as an example, the Mythic team was doing an excellent job, those in early closed beta know that they were listening to the testers, fixing bugs as they were found, and the game was actually fun. Their big publisher with the wallet (EA) rushed them to release not only to make extra money by keeping fanbase, but to beat AoC and the WoW expansion, this resulted in having to cut classes and entire cities from release, in the process it left some loose ends that plagued the game after release, deterred potential players. We were barely starting to test T4 after some big changes (we tested T4 way back when the Choppa was still in beta but there was a lot of missing content), only to have the flood gates of the pre order open up on us, and soon after that release, the result? Those that played know how boring T4 ended up as, how repetitive it got, how nightmarish the last Fortress before a city was, all of that could have been fixed, or at least given a red flag as possible problem if there had been more testing.
After WAR it seems that MMO developer/publishers just want to initial revenue, not caring about the long term, closed betas that were a privilege and honor to test a game and help the developers iron out the game, got turned into a cash machine by "offering" it if you pre ordered the game, so you get people that just want to play or find exploits before release instead of wanting to fix the game and make it better. Obviously the developers don't care either, as lately they make a mockery of the testing (even more) by having set days and times that players are allowed to test, instead of having a permanent world running all the time, which makes more sense as the servers will be running all day and night with players in them, I believe this used to be called "consistency and stability testing", obviously by the previous MMO releases this type of testing is not in their high priority. So when open beta arrives (used to be called stress testing) the login server overloads, the game server can't remain stable, and hell breaks loose, this starts killing the fanbase of the MMO, slowly but steady. But I guess no one can do as bad as Aion did, entire ISP's were blocking them in different states, think that was the first time I've seen that!
Another bad problem that it's beginning to be the "standard" is queue to join a server, I believe this started with WoW (correct me if I'm wrong), why do you want to pay $15 a month to sit in a queue for 45mins or more (someone insert a Aion queue pic) is beyond me, I pay for a service that's running 24/7, why when I want to access it I need to wait? when you turn on your PC, and open your browser, do you need to wait 45mins or an hour before your internet kicks in? same concept. Now we go to STO, they announced, boasted and were proud to say that the game would be one huge server for the entire world, and now there's a queue for it? there's 1 server for thousands if not hundred of thousands of players, for only 5-10k to get in at the same time? They should have thought this better, the queue as bad as it is, was somewhat acceptable in other games because you could simply go to another server, enjoy the game you're playing for, in STO there are no more servers.
It is sad, but the one problem that remains a constant is the majority of the players just shrugging it off, this tells the developers and publishers that they can do what they want without worrying too much, yes some of those games are dead, dieing or limping atm, but the problem persist that we allow it enough for the next developer to keep doing it or making it worse.
Yes all the MMO's release with problems, bugs, incomplete and with the chance to blow up and give you a rash, but it's getting worse, only the players can demand and force developers and publishers to do things the right way, simply don't pre order, don't buy the game until it is proven that the game is up to the standard every player deserves for the money they are investing.
I really dont understand why someone would have an issue with optional additional content. They do not cost much money, and have no effect of the gameplay at all. They are just vanity pets/costumes etc usually.
People are all up in arms about the races in Star Trek but doesnt the character creator basically allow you to create anything youd like? People need to stop focusing on the principles of the issue and think with their own brains. You are not being wronged in any way. You still have a choice.
MMORPGs are a strange new genre for gaming (by new, I mean alot of people focusing on it). Things will get better, and they are. But they will all start the same way. A company needs to generate a ton of buzz to even make an mmorpg. These are expensive to create, and unlike other games, have significant costs to continue running. They also need to add content, and fix balance/bug issues. If someone out there wants to buy a panda costume so I can get some new content, I dont care. I am not angry that they get something and I dont like a little kid.
Although I wish mmorpg companies would do a little more to "thank us" for subscribing. I am really surprised that a company hasnt thought of giving items or cool little pets/costumes when you pay their subscription fee. I think games keep failing because people expect tons of new stuff, and dont subscribe after the first month because of the lack of new things. People are thinking more and more short term, and because tons and tons of new games come out, games never get a chance to show themselves. I find this frustrating because my longest mmorpg experience is world of warcraft, and I have been with it since the day it came out. It was not very great in the beginning, but now it really feels like a world I belong to. My characters have been with me for years. I am patient with a new mmorpg, and understand what is going to happen.
People also need to realize that a new mmorpg is just a foundation for the actual game. I hate when people refer to a new release as a "paid beta" and things like that because this genre isnt like other video game genres. You are basically buying into the world they create. You have to trust that they will develope and add to that world.
The first month or two should be all about developing relationships in game and working on the community of the game while the developers get everything stable and smooth. At least thats how I think of it. How many times have you looked into a new game and thought "man I wish I was there since the beginning". It gives you an odd "left out" feeling. Even if the game isnt finished or perfect, there are a ton of people there with you figuring everything out. My best online friend came from WoW, and we met on one of the first days when he helped with the druid bear form quest, because I had no idea. That is the kind of thing that makes an MMORPG. The people.
Otherwise we could just be playing offline games still.
the fact that all mmo companies are doing it only makes it more obvious of how much more we should all be complaining so yes i agree. It is just to bad the people that actualy matter (the people who don't speak out) are either just not playing and the other half have no reason to leave world of warcraft. I've been saying it for a while now "Even a shitty movie can make money on an awesome trailer."
That is what each and every one of you buy every single time. "An Awesome Trailer." Foaming at the mouth at every single new release to hit the market because it "looks cool" or because it says Star Trek. Honestly if it didnt say star trek how long would those of you that play it honestly keep up with that game? Don't answer that because i allready know. And so do the devs,
I've seen which companies say, "everyone is doing it." What I don't understand is why they fail to see that this particular "everyone" is experiencing subscription bleed, closing games altogether, changing business models, endlessly revamping, losing their investors and having to lay off staff.
"Everyone" that does "it" seems to end up in the red. Games like WoW and EVE didn't do it, and they experienced growth; one was explosive and the other slow and steady. I guess "everyone" is really a club of greedy, failing MMO development houses pointing at each other to justify their actions and holding summits to discuss how to shoot themselves in the other foot.
Well, actually, costumes and similar stuff are very important to many players. I'll try to explain why.
Except the people valiantly trying to actually roleplay in a (supposed to be) role playing game (in which case costumes do have an effect in gameplay), others just want unique looks so they can be recognized in victory pictures (preferrably not as "the guy without the beard") and still others just want to look nice instead of whatever ugly armor set the game developers have designed
(or even worse, mainly on lower levels: mismatched armor pieces). For fans of a specific "world", Trekkies for instance, things like "lore" and "costumes" are often a Big Thing.
But usually, the "optional additional content" usually isn't the only thing people have issues with...
“Otherwise we could just be playing offline games still.”
I do not believe this will be an option in the future; every single game that comes out will have an online element. Originally the drive to online was to increase gameplay interest and we saw a slow uptake of games into a live online mode. But now they see the possibility of extra money being raked in there has been an explosion in online titles, gaming companies want that extra cash.
This in turn will shape the nature of your online experience. Lobbies and achievements do not generate money. Cash shops and a points system which is interchangeable for money do. So you will see more ane more of the online structure of games becoming a platform to generate money.
You've certainly got a point there.
The other side of that coin of course, is that online content is currently not widely pirated (piratable?), which encourages the consumer to buy the legit copy in order to grab the DLC/online components. That's why you're seeing alot of companies release DLC for free on launch day.