Together money hungry publishers alongside developers have turned a wonderful, magical industry into nothing more than a dirty, money hungry whore - and thats exactly what this industry has become, metaphorically speaking. Developers who see nothing but $$$ signs without being willing to take risks and push the genre forward are quite frankly the cancer of the gaming industry, eating it up from the inside and spitting out the remains for players to chew on. And STO is a prime example.
This is so well said. I too am sick of this industry pumping out crappy, unfinished games.
This is exactly right and buying the game is letting them know its ok to release an unfinished crappy product...gg. Cryptic is in no way interested in making an outstanding fun MMO and in fact intentionally keep content out at release so they can charge you for what should of been in at launch later just like they are doing in CO. Borg..have to pay for. Klingon Fed have to pay for. Ferengi Fed have to pay for. ANY new content that comes in the next year I guarantee you will pay for....even though you are paying $15 a month on top of it all.
This is off topic, but wouldn't an mmo set in the Biblical era make a fantastic game? Just think of the possibilities: what would the opposing factions be? Wouldn't you love to accept missions from Jesus or Pontius Pilate? Wouldn't playing a rezzing class be inspiring? LOL.... just having a bit of fun here. Let Cryptic develop a Bible MMO, they develop games fast!
I would play a Female Leper with mixed up body parts and +10 DOT weeping pustules.
On Topic ... thanks to the OP and to all for the mix of views/comments in here.
I have only been keeping half an eye on STO and what I read here has made me cautious about just jumping in.
I love the tools in the STO forums who are responding to the OP's post there with more of the stereotypical fanboi attitudes. Makes me question the future of the industry tbh. Not much incentive for making a real, true, deep game.
We should go into video game development to get the cash that people are willing to give out for absolute crap. I bet we could turn out a pac-man MMO in no time and have tons of lemmings buy it as long as we create a forum and add a chat window to the pac-man screen.
Level of interest in excuses by game developers and fanbois as to the terrible state of game development. --- Previous Games: E&B, SWG, GW, COX, EVE, TR, LOTRO, CO Currently Playing: Nothing - WTB sandbox games!
I have never, in my 7 year history of MMO gaming, been so bored so quickly in an MMORPG. And as a RP'er (someone who can usually make something out of nothing), big Star Trek fan and casual gamer, that is saying something. Its a sad day when i am actually having to force myself to log in.
You make it sound like your an experience gamer, what a whole 7 years! I've been online gaming for the last 14 years and first started computer (for a lack of a better term) gaming back when the zx80 came out. Which was before a lot of you were even born. Though really I'm commenting in part due to the fact STO hasn't been released yet in the UK and so maybe you should keep your game hating to yourself as some of us haven't even played it yet. Of course I know that wont happen but I do, as a psycholgist, find the venom and effort placed in your post very interesting. I suggest you maybe stop playing MMOs because they are clearing distruping your mental health. As for STO I cant yet comment and wouldn't bother even if I could. Because at the end of the day a person should make their own mind up about anything and everything. And they certainly shouldn't listen to the rantings of some nobody on what is slowly turning into a gamer hater site.
While I think the first paragraph of insults to slights you haven't even seen yet I don't begrudge you your opinion, I could have posted similar commentary about a few games myself but STO for me is not one of them. I read your entire post but I simply don't see things the way you do and again I can only chock it up to different strokes for different folks. I haven no problem with the skill system as it exists (but more so why do so many people seem to complain about this without first finding out what the skills mean/do?) nor the quests and truth be told through the beta's I repeated lot's of quests low and behold I didn't repeat a single quest from LT to LT Commander from headstart to launch so that point comes off for me as much of the criticism Aion faced where many people said it was too content light and too much grind while others swore they did not repeat many quests if any, in this case it obviously depends on what and how you do it. I played EVE and within fifteen minutes I knew it wasn't for me and I never even logged in again so that makes me aware that it's possible to not like a game that many consider to be fine and I'll look at this post the same way especially since again the experiences you relay are your experiences and not necessarily indicative of what every player is going to experience.
Well, you are right. I did the quests from LT to LT Commander and unless you repeated the Defend missions or the Deep Space Encounter Missions, you don't actually repeat quests. But, the missions didn't have a lot of variety in them either, at least for me. That may be why some folks thought it was a grind. Still, to each his own. My god, how many Squill Lairs did I destroy over and over and over along my to becoming a Jedi in PreCU SWG? Haha.
Like you, I couldn't get past the tutorial in Eve, it just wasn't for me.
Still, as so many people are disappointed in this game, for whatever reason, a free trial seems a great idea. Dang, that is true for any mmo these days, don't you think?
Agreed, I hope I did a good enough job of relaying that I certainly see problems with this game but I do think as long as the community stays active and Cryptic has some talent over there the game can be built up quite nicely.
As some have mentioned overall the use of instances does make the game seem smallish but I also agree with what the devs said in the interview about this today. I have only on the rare occasion of a motion picture (or maybe it happened in DS9) seen more than the one federation ship in the same area and if alot more of you asked yourself I'd think you'd realize how silly it would look if the entire game was inundated with the amount of traffic you usually see around sol (earth system). The system as it is set up at times does do a decent job of showing that even with the amount of ships in the Federation space is big and you will mostly find yourself alone in it unless you choose to group up often. They could certainly use larger maps for both ground and space and maybe the ability to chose to explore random planets would help to (But another thing about this is anyone who knows much of science will know that you are going to very rarely in any solar system find a planet worth or able to be explored).
More diplomacy would work too something even as simple as the mission where you have to get the miners grievences works for me. And keep in mind players diplomacy requires us to actually read the content so be careful what you wish for. But I do think there is much room for improvement but unlike many other games released lately STO is in my estimation in a good position to alleviate many of it's problems.
I agree that most games should offer a trial but I am equally convinced that the "mmo community" as a whole is generally unhappy and are quick to resort to "the sky is falling" to describe anything they don't get with. With most mmo's costing now less than console/pc games as well as offering a free month we need to really start to consider what we are paying for and what we are getting. Most non mmo's (simulation games excluded) last for a month or two so I think paying fifty dollars for a game I'll get thirty dayso f enjoyment out of is par for the course as I've been playing games since the days of Atari (for those who don't remember the game system) and have gotten much less for about the same price before.
You and I think along the same lines. While for 8 years, I sang the same toon as the OP about each MMO that released, I've come to realize that the genre just isn't the same anymore, and neither am I. The genre is saturated with choices, so expecting yourself to subscribe to one MMORPG for several years, when you have all these other interesting games coming out each year is unrealistic. So I've come to be happy with any MMO that offers me a fun experience. A single player game lasts me for a week and costs me $60. A MMO might last me a 1-3 months nowadays, and costs nearly the same amount plus a little extra for each month you subscribe.
Cyptic made a design choice when choosing to use instances and it was a good choice, for the same reasons they pointed out, and you recognized them pointing out in their interviews. Anyone with any analytical skills can break down most real life missions (military) into a handful of categories. You can essentially find most of these categories in STO, and I think the dialogue is adequate for immersion. Just as you pointed out, there isn't a whole lot to see in space and most things you can see isn't worth exploring further. I also want to point out that with the technology the Federation has, the need to explore to find things is almost non-existant. So if an officer is given a mission to do this and that in this system, then the officer doesn't need to explore every inch of that system to complete the mission. That officer has a plethora of technology that will narrow down his search before even needing to move his ship. So with this in mind, the small 20x20 instanced space and ground areas are justified. A good officer completes his mission in the most efficient and effective way possible. He doesn't explore an entire area or planet if it's not needed to complete the mission. So Cryptic has given us plenty to feel like Starfleet Officers.
What people are asking for is something that isn't in line with being Starfleet Officers. People want to explore on their own, without anyone telling them when and where. Well that's fine, but that's not what military life is like, and the Federation is one huge military-like structured organization. This means that players are given orders, and are expected to follow orders. So the mission format is immersive for me. I've stated in another thread that company's choose how to focus their game. Cryptic chose to focus STO around being a Starfleet Officer. In as much, I think Cryptic did a good job. People who are generally complaining on these forums expected and wanted a different focus. STO didn't focus on what they wanted and expected, so they claim STO is a failure. That's just plain wrong and ignorant.
That's not to say that Cryptic cannot improve STO, because they can. It just means that Cryptic made a game that'll be fun for a little bit, longer than required to justify the same fee charged to get only a weeks worth of content from a single player game. They've laid a nice foundation for STO, and can improve the game to give the game longer longevity for those who wish it. I agree that MMO gamers as a whole, especially on this forum, are just jaded and have unrealistic expectations. They also live in the past, refuse to accept the present, which in return makes them unhappy. They'll never be happy with anything any company releases after this mindset has set in. Not until they wake up, and realize what was is not what is, and what is is not bad, just because it is not what once was.
Originally posted by montin You make it sound like your an experience gamer, what a whole 7 years! I've been online gaming for the last 14 years and first started computer (for a lack of a better term) gaming back when the zx80 came out. Which was before a lot of you were even born. Though really I'm commenting in part due to the fact STO hasn't been released yet in the UK and so maybe you should keep your game hating to yourself as some of us haven't even played it yet. Of course I know that wont happen but I do, as a psycholgist, find the venom and effort placed in your post very interesting. I suggest you maybe stop playing MMOs because they are clearing distruping your mental health. As for STO I cant yet comment and wouldn't bother even if I could. Because at the end of the day a person should make their own mind up about anything and everything. And they certainly shouldn't listen to the rantings of some nobody on what is slowly turning into a gamer hater site.
It seems to me that a psycologist would know how to spell it. To say nothing of using paragraphs. Not to mention the other grammatical errors.
If you don't want to read negative comments about the game, reading a thread with such a title would strike me as counter-productive. I didn't go to college, though. Maybe I am wrong.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I tried the open beta, and the game is not for me. Its (to put it simple) boring as hell.
Its a shame that SWTOR wont come up untill somewere in 2011, I really need a good space mmo (bored of EVE, maybe I'll go for Global Agenda, I like shooters a lot)
I don't understand, there was an open beta for like 3 weeks. Why did you buy the game lol? you couldn't find out during the open beta that you weren't going to play the game? There's a smart consumer for you...
I pre-ordered and could not download the client. I tried for a week and it kept getting to 97% then re-started. It's as if there was a greater power preventing me from getting involved. I did buy the game today and will see for myself what it's all about, although, after reading these forums, I'm interested to find out if it's really the game itself people are pissed at or Cryptic for not delivering the mmo that people wanted. I wrote it before, just because it's something you aren't interested in or didn't expect, it doesn't mean it's all bad. If I get the nerve to open it tonight, I'll post my initial thoughts tomorrow
Originally posted by Tymora Originally posted by bigitups I don't understand, there was an open beta for like 3 weeks. Why did you buy the game lol? you couldn't find out during the open beta that you weren't going to play the game? There's a smart consumer for you...
I pre-ordered and could not download the client. I tried for a week and it kept getting to 97% then re-started. It's as if there was a greater power preventing me from getting involved. I did buy the game today and will see for myself what it's all about, although, after reading these forums, I'm interested to find out if it's really the game itself people are pissed at or Cryptic for not delivering the mmo that people wanted. I wrote it before, just because it's something you aren't interested in or didn't expect, it doesn't mean it's all bad. If I get the nerve to open it tonight, I'll post my initial thoughts tomorrow
Heh, at that point I think I would have figured that it was a foreshadow of the state of the game and deleted it right there. Especially if you do a little research into Cryptic's history.
Level of interest in excuses by game developers and fanbois as to the terrible state of game development. --- Previous Games: E&B, SWG, GW, COX, EVE, TR, LOTRO, CO Currently Playing: Nothing - WTB sandbox games!
What kind of response is this? What do you mean once is enough. Its a completely different website? Are you assuming everyone here goes there? Lame response.
Its hard for me to gather information from a rant.
PvP is meaningless how? Is there no reward for winning? You stated there is no risk, that is a big problem. Skills are meaningless how? You dont see them affect your game if you pick one over the other or go with none? Or are they just not in your set of uses so they dont mean anything to you?
You failed to mention if there are level restrictions to zones or exploration. You failed to mention if there is even exploration or it is all quest instances. The bit regarding progression is a rant. People level for leveling and phat loot. Is there no better loot? Is the next ship just a new skin? I am assuming based off your post that there is no reputation or diplomacy with factions as all ships are hostile. Does the game also not hold true to the franchise in regards to combat flow and style? This is why I called it a rant and lacking information. There are many things that are bashed but nothing explained.
I will see if I can help clarify for ya.
Pvp is meaningless in regards to reward or outcome. The only Benefiet I saw to pvp in beta, was it seemed to lvl you faster. It does nothing to benefiet the faction, but then again how could it when 1 faction is strictly a pvp faction. As with Warhammer, "War is NOWHERE"! There is no penalty for dying. and it equates to a mini game within a game. Jack Emmerett said it best when discussing STO pvp: "Yo dawg, we heard you like to game so we put game in your game so you can game while you game" (lol)
As I skilled up my character and bridge officers I saw no noticeable differences in performance or interactable new skills (clickabble for those of you in Rio Linda) It probably would have been a good test to make a new toon and never train to see if there was any difference though.
There is zero exploration. You move your ship on a grid map and click on the name of the system you want to go to on a drop down, it auto flys you there then you load....into an instance kill the 5 patrolls click on the "I'm done button and load.... out to the grid map. click on the place the next mission tells you to go, click to enter, load....into the instance, kill the 5 SQUADRONS (cause they needed varriety for the missions, see) then load...out. Do this Ensign through Admiral.
Loot does get better. weapon systems upgrades improve damage, as well as some bridge officer consoles. but even weapon drops in asian grinders give you better dps output if the weapon is an upgrade...The tactical vessel I got at Lt Cmdr was fun to fly for the 1st 2 minutes. The ship was faster and it handled better and did more damage. but then I had to laod.. kill 5 patrolls load... kill 5 squadrons, load... kill 5 battleships ect. I was just doing it in a faster well handled and more powerful ship.
No rep or diplomacy.. you are a hitman for the federation. thats it. You will not meet no new races, your actions will not determine if the federation wil pick up a new ally, or they will instead join the klingons..well I guess that would require thought and a klngon faction to join.... next point..
Combat flow and style being Star Trek... well combat consists of flying in circles beating down a sheild then firing torpedos. Left side sheilds are down change side of exposure. No retina detatching special strategies though. As for style kinda... but IMHO where Cryptic accels is char customization. This is a problem where uniforms are concerned. I can understand having a select few uniform styles, but to see guys running around in pink green and yellow ..."uniforms" kind of kills the style..
People say there is no innovation, but I disagree. I have said it before, but we all think asian grinders are the worst and laugh at them. Cryptic has managed to make a worse game. What they have done was created an asian grinder with shoebox instances every 2 minutes. Thats innovation!
Originally posted by montin You make it sound like your an experience gamer, what a whole 7 years! I've been online gaming for the last 14 years and first started computer (for a lack of a better term) gaming back when the zx80 came out. Which was before a lot of you were even born. Though really I'm commenting in part due to the fact STO hasn't been released yet in the UK and so maybe you should keep your game hating to yourself as some of us haven't even played it yet. Of course I know that wont happen but I do, as a psycholgist, find the venom and effort placed in your post very interesting. I suggest you maybe stop playing MMOs because they are clearing distruping your mental health. As for STO I cant yet comment and wouldn't bother even if I could. Because at the end of the day a person should make their own mind up about anything and everything. And they certainly shouldn't listen to the rantings of some nobody on what is slowly turning into a gamer hater site.
It seems to me that a psycologist would know how to spell it. To say nothing of using paragraphs. Not to mention the other grammatical errors.
If you don't want to read negative comments about the game, reading a thread with such a title would strike me as counter-productive. I didn't go to college, though. Maybe I am wrong.
You've GOT to be kidding me. Psychologist has an "H" in it dude. If you are going to be a spelling and grammar fascist, at least learn how to spell yourself, mmkay?
Pvp is meaningless in regards to reward or outcome. The only Benefiet I saw to pvp in beta, was it seemed to lvl you faster. It does nothing to benefiet the faction, but then again how could it when 1 faction is strictly a pvp faction. As with Warhammer, "War is NOWHERE"! There is no penalty for dying. and it equates to a mini game within a game. Jack Emmerett said it best when discussing STO pvp: "Yo dawg, we heard you like to game so we put game in your game so you can game while you game" (lol)
My response isn't really about STO itself, but the above statement is a peeve of mine. I'll try and stay in bounds in terms of STO. What exactly is the goal of PVP outside of having a fun experience, that offers more of a challenge (a thinking opponent)? If STO was supposed to be a PVP game I could ""maybe"" see room for complaint.
What do people want to gain from PVP? Wouldn't making everything "gained" by means of PVP, sort of negate any reason to develop hours upon hours of PVE content ( this is an IP with tons of back ground story)? If you base the "game" on PVP why create anything other than a virtual boxing ring to fight on (WAR: take away pq's that's all there really is that's worth while)?
Taking a popular IP and creating a virtual battle ground is a recipe for disaster. As we see with STO as it is (even excluding PVP) that's all it is is a battleground. There are NWN player created small scale MO's with greater depth than what you see in this game.
My point is in the end leave the PVP games for an original I.P. I love PVP that's why I feel good PVP should be left for original Ideas. The only popular IP based PVP MMO that would make sense is WAR, but they screwed that up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Very well said OP. Agree completely. Their champions online was a prime example of the crap which was to come with sto. Must say i did enjoy my time in open beta, even though up till your first tier 1 ship it was utterly boring, but its definately not worth the money.
Then they go charge money for races in STO and money for an update with content for lvls 45 , or whatever, till 50 in champions online lol. May i laugh. All cryptic is after is making money as fast as possible and as much as possible while fooling their customers making them believe they are after making a great game experience.
I remember the early days of mmorpgs where their excuse to ask for a monthly subscribtion was based on the promise to add new FREE content for which they supposedly needed the monthly fee to keep their dev team up. Now it seems people pay monthly fee's for umm... well im not sure anymore what they want us to pay monthly fee's for ? I guess coz they want us too since updates arent for free anymore ?
Anyway specially liked this line in your conclusing..;
Together money hungry publishers alongside developers have turned a wonderful, magical industry into nothing more than a dirty, money hungry whore
AGREED agreed agreed, this post is 100% true and correct STO is made only for money and has nothing st core inside it, thank you poster for making it clear. Thumbs up and respect for great post!
The OP is proving everything what i personally was worried about in the past - things making me not buying a game out of the blue anymore.
Whenever i see a game studio doing the "half-arsed done unfinished/unpolished rush-rush release to gain subscription money"-way, i am definitly out.
I don't like car analogies but i will once more bring them anyway: When i buy a car i want it complete, because i also pay completely.
I don't want to hear: -"Brakes will come later, as an expansion" -"Steering wheel will only allow 30 degree now, it will get raised later" -"3 of 4 doors will be not fully funtional yet, will be done later"
HELLO !?!?!
Game studios need to face the truth: A game is rated, tested and judged the moment it comes out.
If you don't add every fully-functional eye-candy, "nice to have" and even essential mechanism to the game AT RELEASE, you will get RATED based upon what you released.
This "left-over" is dull of course, because you miss everything making a game not dull. No crafting (i am talking about real crafting) No socializing/RPG support Heavy instancing (alone...boring) No housing No community interaction No thrilling combat (strategy wise) yada yada yada yada ....
What's left ? Correct, a dull repeative mouse(key)-mashing brain-killer with no skills needed - no fun, no adventuring, no nothing. Pacman for 3D-Freaks, "Asteroids" in color - play it 45 minutes, deinstall and move on...
Rating (i swear): 6.8
This is the very moment every potential customer decides to NOT buy the game, due to the low rating, worse reviews etc.
Go on game studio, add the missing stuff over the next 6-12 month but be aware: Noone will recognize it anymore, because people already moved on to the next (disappointing) game.
You studio REALLY need to learn: DO IT COMPLETELY DO IT RIGHT DO IT OUTSTANDING DO IT INVENTING
or fail...and you will fail (financial) literally - the end of the story is well known: Bankrupcy, lose jobs...end of story, NEXT ! You can try to find Brad (Sigil), maybe he got a beach lounger left at whatever island he is hiding on...
"We've told you before"....and we really did.
But a major problem is that you studios think, that we customers have no clue about game developing and economical aspects of it. What you studio forget tho...there are a lot of gamers with a real life, important jobs - and some of us actually GOT a clue of economical aspects of developing and selling products - and an MMO is nothing else.
And you studios forget, that we ARE the ones (supposed) finally paying money for your product (or not).
And now i do intenionally what many feel, and i do it loud and clear so you idiots (studios) MAYBE start to get a clue.
Bear the consequences and don't expect any pity - WE HAVE TOLD YOU SO !
It might sound harsh, but i "enjoy" (in a special way) seeing studios going down on developing and releasing games/products in this manner.
Why? Because it's the only way (and hope) studios start pulling the head out of the ass, realize this is the wrong way and (maybe) finally stop this nonsense and start to do it the right way - IT'S OVERDUE !
Note: English isn't (surprise suprise) my native language, just saying.
For the OP I agree with what you have said. That is why after I actually gave the beta 5 days before I gave up. Im going to let those who love it play, however I am not.
The really telling thing that you can deduce from the 134 posts (I read them all) is that overwhelmingly a majority of the posters who have played the game agree with most of the points raised by the OP.
There of course are a few people happy with the game, and yes, I know, happy gamers supposedly don't post on forums (not something I agree with, but whatever) but by and by, this game fails to meet most people's expectations (at least on these forums)
This is enough to keep me from trying the game (at least until its been released a while and they offer a free trial)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But a major problem is that you studios think, that we customers have no clue about game developing and economical aspects of it.
What you studio forget tho...there are a lot of gamers with a real life, important jobs - and some of us actually GOT a clue of
economical aspects of developing and selling products - and an MMO is nothing else. And you studios forget, that we ARE the ones (supposed) finally paying money for your product (or not).
And now i do intenionally what many feel, and i do it loud and clear so you idiots (studios) MAYBE start to get a clue..
Just want to point out that while as a consumer you are entitled to purchase or not purchase whatever you want, studios are under no obligation to make games that cater to your needs. Now if they make games that caters to nobody needs, well they will go out of business. But again... game studios are under no obligation to make the games that you want to play.
If you have a problem with this, feel free to make your own MMO, with all the features you want at launch, that ships on time.
But a major problem is that you studios think, that we customers have no clue about game developing and economical aspects of it.
What you studio forget tho...there are a lot of gamers with a real life, important jobs - and some of us actually GOT a clue of
economical aspects of developing and selling products - and an MMO is nothing else. And you studios forget, that we ARE the ones (supposed) finally paying money for your product (or not).
And now i do intenionally what many feel, and i do it loud and clear so you idiots (studios) MAYBE start to get a clue..
Just want to point out that while as a consumer you are entitled to purchase or not purchase whatever you want, studios are under no obligation to make games that cater to your needs. Now if they make games that caters to nobody needs, well they will go out of business. But again... game studios are under no obligation to make the games that you want to play.
If you have a problem with this, feel free to make your own MMO, with all the features you want at launch, that ships on time.
Well, if they want my money they will listen up and make the game I want. Well, hopefully someone out there will.
Meanwhile there's always forums like these where we can dish out healthy doses of criticism for fun and amusement.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But a major problem is that you studios think, that we customers have no clue about game developing and economical aspects of it.
What you studio forget tho...there are a lot of gamers with a real life, important jobs - and some of us actually GOT a clue of
economical aspects of developing and selling products - and an MMO is nothing else. And you studios forget, that we ARE the ones (supposed) finally paying money for your product (or not).
And now i do intenionally what many feel, and i do it loud and clear so you idiots (studios) MAYBE start to get a clue..
Just want to point out that while as a consumer you are entitled to purchase or not purchase whatever you want, studios are under no obligation to make games that cater to your needs. Now if they make games that caters to nobody needs, well they will go out of business. But again... game studios are under no obligation to make the games that you want to play.
If you have a problem with this, feel free to make your own MMO, with all the features you want at launch, that ships on time.
Well, if they want my money they will listen up and make the game I want. Well, hopefully someone out there will.
Meanwhile there's always forums like these where we can dish out healthy doses of criticism for fun and amusement.
Ah, but the silent assumption here is that the game you want to play can be made within a budget that allows it to be priced for a dollar value you are willing to pay.
What if, for example, there was a hypothetical company that for purposes of the example had the most efficient and streamlined MMO production methodologies amongst all the game studios. They make the MMO that is everything you want to play, but due to the cost of making the game they must charge $50/mo and a $200 box. Would you purchase the game and subscribe? What about $100/mo and a $300 box? At some point, there will be a cost that you are not willing to pay.
I think what studios feel that players are willing pay for an MMO dictates the limit of features (and to some degree polish, as this is always a time/resource tradeoff) therein. It is quite possible that the MMO you want to play cannot be made within a budget that allows a cost you are willing to pay as a consumer.
Ah, but the silent assumption here is that the game you want to play can be made within a budget that allows it to be priced for a dollar value you are willing to pay. What if, for example, there was a hypothetical company that for purposes of the example had the most efficient and streamlined MMO production methodologies amongst all the game studios. They make the MMO that is everything you want to play, but due to the cost of making the game they must charge $50/mo and a $200 box. Would you purchase the game and subscribe? What about $100/mo and a $300 box? At some point, there will be a cost that you are not willing to pay. I think what studios feel that players are willing pay for an MMO dictates the limit of features (and to some degree polish, as this is always a time/resource tradeoff) therein. It is quite possible that the MMO you want to play cannot be made within a budget that allows a cost you are willing to pay as a consumer.
That's a very good point. I think what game developers (and possibly the publishers) are finding out is that the cost and time to create these games and to create them polished and feature rich is at odds with the sheer amount of money it takes to make them as well as what they are going to get for revenue once the game goes live.
As in your example, if a game company were to say "look, we can guarantee a complete reasonably bug free product that is feature rich but it's going to cost more for everyone" I think players would be rushing to the forums to complain.
In a you tube video of Aion's head dev, he comes out and says that what players are expecting is content on the level of WoW as far as quantity and that is a difficult thing to do given what they have. It was actually very interesting.
If we look at the mmo releases in the past 2 years or so it seems that a sort of wall has been hit. These companies can't seem to do it all. So something is going to have to give or change.
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Comments
This is so well said. I too am sick of this industry pumping out crappy, unfinished games.
This is exactly right and buying the game is letting them know its ok to release an unfinished crappy product...gg. Cryptic is in no way interested in making an outstanding fun MMO and in fact intentionally keep content out at release so they can charge you for what should of been in at launch later just like they are doing in CO. Borg..have to pay for. Klingon Fed have to pay for. Ferengi Fed have to pay for. ANY new content that comes in the next year I guarantee you will pay for....even though you are paying $15 a month on top of it all.
I would play a Female Leper with mixed up body parts and +10 DOT weeping pustules.
On Topic ... thanks to the OP and to all for the mix of views/comments in here.
I have only been keeping half an eye on STO and what I read here has made me cautious about just jumping in.
I will wait a while I think
@OP: Amen brother!
I love the tools in the STO forums who are responding to the OP's post there with more of the stereotypical fanboi attitudes. Makes me question the future of the industry tbh. Not much incentive for making a real, true, deep game.
We should go into video game development to get the cash that people are willing to give out for absolute crap. I bet we could turn out a pac-man MMO in no time and have tons of lemmings buy it as long as we create a forum and add a chat window to the pac-man screen.
Level of interest in excuses by game developers and fanbois as to the terrible state of game development.
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Previous Games: E&B, SWG, GW, COX, EVE, TR, LOTRO, CO
Currently Playing: Nothing - WTB sandbox games!
You make it sound like your an experience gamer, what a whole 7 years! I've been online gaming for the last 14 years and first started computer (for a lack of a better term) gaming back when the zx80 came out. Which was before a lot of you were even born. Though really I'm commenting in part due to the fact STO hasn't been released yet in the UK and so maybe you should keep your game hating to yourself as some of us haven't even played it yet. Of course I know that wont happen but I do, as a psycholgist, find the venom and effort placed in your post very interesting. I suggest you maybe stop playing MMOs because they are clearing distruping your mental health. As for STO I cant yet comment and wouldn't bother even if I could. Because at the end of the day a person should make their own mind up about anything and everything. And they certainly shouldn't listen to the rantings of some nobody on what is slowly turning into a gamer hater site.
Well, you are right. I did the quests from LT to LT Commander and unless you repeated the Defend missions or the Deep Space Encounter Missions, you don't actually repeat quests. But, the missions didn't have a lot of variety in them either, at least for me. That may be why some folks thought it was a grind. Still, to each his own. My god, how many Squill Lairs did I destroy over and over and over along my to becoming a Jedi in PreCU SWG? Haha.
Like you, I couldn't get past the tutorial in Eve, it just wasn't for me.
Still, as so many people are disappointed in this game, for whatever reason, a free trial seems a great idea. Dang, that is true for any mmo these days, don't you think?
Agreed, I hope I did a good enough job of relaying that I certainly see problems with this game but I do think as long as the community stays active and Cryptic has some talent over there the game can be built up quite nicely.
As some have mentioned overall the use of instances does make the game seem smallish but I also agree with what the devs said in the interview about this today. I have only on the rare occasion of a motion picture (or maybe it happened in DS9) seen more than the one federation ship in the same area and if alot more of you asked yourself I'd think you'd realize how silly it would look if the entire game was inundated with the amount of traffic you usually see around sol (earth system). The system as it is set up at times does do a decent job of showing that even with the amount of ships in the Federation space is big and you will mostly find yourself alone in it unless you choose to group up often. They could certainly use larger maps for both ground and space and maybe the ability to chose to explore random planets would help to (But another thing about this is anyone who knows much of science will know that you are going to very rarely in any solar system find a planet worth or able to be explored).
More diplomacy would work too something even as simple as the mission where you have to get the miners grievences works for me. And keep in mind players diplomacy requires us to actually read the content so be careful what you wish for. But I do think there is much room for improvement but unlike many other games released lately STO is in my estimation in a good position to alleviate many of it's problems.
I agree that most games should offer a trial but I am equally convinced that the "mmo community" as a whole is generally unhappy and are quick to resort to "the sky is falling" to describe anything they don't get with. With most mmo's costing now less than console/pc games as well as offering a free month we need to really start to consider what we are paying for and what we are getting. Most non mmo's (simulation games excluded) last for a month or two so I think paying fifty dollars for a game I'll get thirty dayso f enjoyment out of is par for the course as I've been playing games since the days of Atari (for those who don't remember the game system) and have gotten much less for about the same price before.
You and I think along the same lines. While for 8 years, I sang the same toon as the OP about each MMO that released, I've come to realize that the genre just isn't the same anymore, and neither am I. The genre is saturated with choices, so expecting yourself to subscribe to one MMORPG for several years, when you have all these other interesting games coming out each year is unrealistic. So I've come to be happy with any MMO that offers me a fun experience. A single player game lasts me for a week and costs me $60. A MMO might last me a 1-3 months nowadays, and costs nearly the same amount plus a little extra for each month you subscribe.
Cyptic made a design choice when choosing to use instances and it was a good choice, for the same reasons they pointed out, and you recognized them pointing out in their interviews. Anyone with any analytical skills can break down most real life missions (military) into a handful of categories. You can essentially find most of these categories in STO, and I think the dialogue is adequate for immersion. Just as you pointed out, there isn't a whole lot to see in space and most things you can see isn't worth exploring further. I also want to point out that with the technology the Federation has, the need to explore to find things is almost non-existant. So if an officer is given a mission to do this and that in this system, then the officer doesn't need to explore every inch of that system to complete the mission. That officer has a plethora of technology that will narrow down his search before even needing to move his ship. So with this in mind, the small 20x20 instanced space and ground areas are justified. A good officer completes his mission in the most efficient and effective way possible. He doesn't explore an entire area or planet if it's not needed to complete the mission. So Cryptic has given us plenty to feel like Starfleet Officers.
What people are asking for is something that isn't in line with being Starfleet Officers. People want to explore on their own, without anyone telling them when and where. Well that's fine, but that's not what military life is like, and the Federation is one huge military-like structured organization. This means that players are given orders, and are expected to follow orders. So the mission format is immersive for me. I've stated in another thread that company's choose how to focus their game. Cryptic chose to focus STO around being a Starfleet Officer. In as much, I think Cryptic did a good job. People who are generally complaining on these forums expected and wanted a different focus. STO didn't focus on what they wanted and expected, so they claim STO is a failure. That's just plain wrong and ignorant.
That's not to say that Cryptic cannot improve STO, because they can. It just means that Cryptic made a game that'll be fun for a little bit, longer than required to justify the same fee charged to get only a weeks worth of content from a single player game. They've laid a nice foundation for STO, and can improve the game to give the game longer longevity for those who wish it. I agree that MMO gamers as a whole, especially on this forum, are just jaded and have unrealistic expectations. They also live in the past, refuse to accept the present, which in return makes them unhappy. They'll never be happy with anything any company releases after this mindset has set in. Not until they wake up, and realize what was is not what is, and what is is not bad, just because it is not what once was.
It seems to me that a psycologist would know how to spell it. To say nothing of using paragraphs. Not to mention the other grammatical errors.
If you don't want to read negative comments about the game, reading a thread with such a title would strike me as counter-productive. I didn't go to college, though. Maybe I am wrong.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I agree with the open poster.
I tried the open beta, and the game is not for me. Its (to put it simple) boring as hell.
Its a shame that SWTOR wont come up untill somewere in 2011, I really need a good space mmo (bored of EVE, maybe I'll go for Global Agenda, I like shooters a lot)
I pre-ordered and could not download the client. I tried for a week and it kept getting to 97% then re-started. It's as if there was a greater power preventing me from getting involved. I did buy the game today and will see for myself what it's all about, although, after reading these forums, I'm interested to find out if it's really the game itself people are pissed at or Cryptic for not delivering the mmo that people wanted. I wrote it before, just because it's something you aren't interested in or didn't expect, it doesn't mean it's all bad. If I get the nerve to open it tonight, I'll post my initial thoughts tomorrow
I pre-ordered and could not download the client. I tried for a week and it kept getting to 97% then re-started. It's as if there was a greater power preventing me from getting involved. I did buy the game today and will see for myself what it's all about, although, after reading these forums, I'm interested to find out if it's really the game itself people are pissed at or Cryptic for not delivering the mmo that people wanted. I wrote it before, just because it's something you aren't interested in or didn't expect, it doesn't mean it's all bad. If I get the nerve to open it tonight, I'll post my initial thoughts tomorrow
Heh, at that point I think I would have figured that it was a foreshadow of the state of the game and deleted it right there. Especially if you do a little research into Cryptic's history.
Level of interest in excuses by game developers and fanbois as to the terrible state of game development.
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Previous Games: E&B, SWG, GW, COX, EVE, TR, LOTRO, CO
Currently Playing: Nothing - WTB sandbox games!
What kind of response is this? What do you mean once is enough. Its a completely different website? Are you assuming everyone here goes there? Lame response.
I will see if I can help clarify for ya.
Pvp is meaningless in regards to reward or outcome. The only Benefiet I saw to pvp in beta, was it seemed to lvl you faster. It does nothing to benefiet the faction, but then again how could it when 1 faction is strictly a pvp faction. As with Warhammer, "War is NOWHERE"! There is no penalty for dying. and it equates to a mini game within a game. Jack Emmerett said it best when discussing STO pvp: "Yo dawg, we heard you like to game so we put game in your game so you can game while you game" (lol)
As I skilled up my character and bridge officers I saw no noticeable differences in performance or interactable new skills (clickabble for those of you in Rio Linda) It probably would have been a good test to make a new toon and never train to see if there was any difference though.
There is zero exploration. You move your ship on a grid map and click on the name of the system you want to go to on a drop down, it auto flys you there then you load....into an instance kill the 5 patrolls click on the "I'm done button and load.... out to the grid map. click on the place the next mission tells you to go, click to enter, load....into the instance, kill the 5 SQUADRONS (cause they needed varriety for the missions, see) then load...out. Do this Ensign through Admiral.
Loot does get better. weapon systems upgrades improve damage, as well as some bridge officer consoles. but even weapon drops in asian grinders give you better dps output if the weapon is an upgrade...The tactical vessel I got at Lt Cmdr was fun to fly for the 1st 2 minutes. The ship was faster and it handled better and did more damage. but then I had to laod.. kill 5 patrolls load... kill 5 squadrons, load... kill 5 battleships ect. I was just doing it in a faster well handled and more powerful ship.
No rep or diplomacy.. you are a hitman for the federation. thats it. You will not meet no new races, your actions will not determine if the federation wil pick up a new ally, or they will instead join the klingons..well I guess that would require thought and a klngon faction to join.... next point..
Combat flow and style being Star Trek... well combat consists of flying in circles beating down a sheild then firing torpedos. Left side sheilds are down change side of exposure. No retina detatching special strategies though. As for style kinda... but IMHO where Cryptic accels is char customization. This is a problem where uniforms are concerned. I can understand having a select few uniform styles, but to see guys running around in pink green and yellow ..."uniforms" kind of kills the style..
People say there is no innovation, but I disagree. I have said it before, but we all think asian grinders are the worst and laugh at them. Cryptic has managed to make a worse game. What they have done was created an asian grinder with shoebox instances every 2 minutes. Thats innovation!
Hope this helps ya.
Or we all became jaded after many years of playing MMOs.
.: mmogle.com - the mmo question hub :.
I'm done with STO atm and i'm gonna give Global Agenda a try.
It seems to me that a psycologist would know how to spell it. To say nothing of using paragraphs. Not to mention the other grammatical errors.
If you don't want to read negative comments about the game, reading a thread with such a title would strike me as counter-productive. I didn't go to college, though. Maybe I am wrong.
You've GOT to be kidding me. Psychologist has an "H" in it dude. If you are going to be a spelling and grammar fascist, at least learn how to spell yourself, mmkay?
My response isn't really about STO itself, but the above statement is a peeve of mine. I'll try and stay in bounds in terms of STO. What exactly is the goal of PVP outside of having a fun experience, that offers more of a challenge (a thinking opponent)? If STO was supposed to be a PVP game I could ""maybe"" see room for complaint.
What do people want to gain from PVP? Wouldn't making everything "gained" by means of PVP, sort of negate any reason to develop hours upon hours of PVE content ( this is an IP with tons of back ground story)? If you base the "game" on PVP why create anything other than a virtual boxing ring to fight on (WAR: take away pq's that's all there really is that's worth while)?
Taking a popular IP and creating a virtual battle ground is a recipe for disaster. As we see with STO as it is (even excluding PVP) that's all it is is a battleground. There are NWN player created small scale MO's with greater depth than what you see in this game.
My point is in the end leave the PVP games for an original I.P. I love PVP that's why I feel good PVP should be left for original Ideas. The only popular IP based PVP MMO that would make sense is WAR, but they screwed that up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Very well said OP. Agree completely. Their champions online was a prime example of the crap which was to come with sto. Must say i did enjoy my time in open beta, even though up till your first tier 1 ship it was utterly boring, but its definately not worth the money.
Then they go charge money for races in STO and money for an update with content for lvls 45 , or whatever, till 50 in champions online lol. May i laugh. All cryptic is after is making money as fast as possible and as much as possible while fooling their customers making them believe they are after making a great game experience.
I remember the early days of mmorpgs where their excuse to ask for a monthly subscribtion was based on the promise to add new FREE content for which they supposedly needed the monthly fee to keep their dev team up. Now it seems people pay monthly fee's for umm... well im not sure anymore what they want us to pay monthly fee's for ? I guess coz they want us too since updates arent for free anymore ?
Anyway specially liked this line in your conclusing..;
Together money hungry publishers alongside developers have turned a wonderful, magical industry into nothing more than a dirty, money hungry whore
AGREED agreed agreed, this post is 100% true and correct STO is made only for money and has nothing st core inside it, thank you poster for making it clear. Thumbs up and respect for great post!
The OP is proving everything what i personally was worried about in the past - things making me not buying a game out of the blue anymore.
Whenever i see a game studio doing the "half-arsed done unfinished/unpolished rush-rush release to gain subscription money"-way, i am definitly out.
I don't like car analogies but i will once more bring them anyway:
When i buy a car i want it complete, because i also pay completely.
I don't want to hear:
-"Brakes will come later, as an expansion"
-"Steering wheel will only allow 30 degree now, it will get raised later"
-"3 of 4 doors will be not fully funtional yet, will be done later"
HELLO !?!?!
Game studios need to face the truth:
A game is rated, tested and judged the moment it comes out.
If you don't add every fully-functional eye-candy, "nice to have" and even essential mechanism to the game
AT RELEASE, you will get RATED based upon what you released.
This "left-over" is dull of course, because you miss everything making a game not dull.
No crafting (i am talking about real crafting)
No socializing/RPG support
Heavy instancing (alone...boring)
No housing
No community interaction
No thrilling combat (strategy wise)
yada yada yada yada ....
What's left ?
Correct, a dull repeative mouse(key)-mashing brain-killer with no skills needed - no fun, no adventuring, no nothing.
Pacman for 3D-Freaks, "Asteroids" in color - play it 45 minutes, deinstall and move on...
Rating (i swear): 6.8
This is the very moment every potential customer decides to NOT buy the game, due to the low rating, worse reviews etc.
Go on game studio, add the missing stuff over the next 6-12 month but be aware:
Noone will recognize it anymore, because people already moved on to the next (disappointing) game.
You studio REALLY need to learn:
DO IT COMPLETELY
DO IT RIGHT
DO IT OUTSTANDING
DO IT INVENTING
or fail...and you will fail (financial) literally - the end of the story is well known:
Bankrupcy, lose jobs...end of story, NEXT !
You can try to find Brad (Sigil), maybe he got a beach lounger left at whatever island he is hiding on...
"We've told you before"....and we really did.
But a major problem is that you studios think, that we customers have no clue about game developing and economical aspects of it.
What you studio forget tho...there are a lot of gamers with a real life, important jobs - and some of us actually GOT a clue of
economical aspects of developing and selling products - and an MMO is nothing else.
And you studios forget, that we ARE the ones (supposed) finally paying money for your product (or not).
And now i do intenionally what many feel, and i do it loud and clear so you idiots (studios) MAYBE start to get a clue.
Bear the consequences and don't expect any pity - WE HAVE TOLD YOU SO !
It might sound harsh, but i "enjoy" (in a special way) seeing studios going down on developing and releasing games/products in this manner.
Why? Because it's the only way (and hope) studios start pulling the head out of the ass, realize this is the wrong way and (maybe) finally stop this nonsense and
start to do it the right way - IT'S OVERDUE !
Note:
English isn't (surprise suprise) my native language, just saying.
Claude
For the OP I agree with what you have said. That is why after I actually gave the beta 5 days before I gave up. Im going to let those who love it play, however I am not.
The really telling thing that you can deduce from the 134 posts (I read them all) is that overwhelmingly a majority of the posters who have played the game agree with most of the points raised by the OP.
There of course are a few people happy with the game, and yes, I know, happy gamers supposedly don't post on forums (not something I agree with, but whatever) but by and by, this game fails to meet most people's expectations (at least on these forums)
This is enough to keep me from trying the game (at least until its been released a while and they offer a free trial)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you have a problem with this, feel free to make your own MMO, with all the features you want at launch, that ships on time.
If you have a problem with this, feel free to make your own MMO, with all the features you want at launch, that ships on time.
Well, if they want my money they will listen up and make the game I want. Well, hopefully someone out there will.
Meanwhile there's always forums like these where we can dish out healthy doses of criticism for fun and amusement.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you have a problem with this, feel free to make your own MMO, with all the features you want at launch, that ships on time.
Well, if they want my money they will listen up and make the game I want. Well, hopefully someone out there will.
Meanwhile there's always forums like these where we can dish out healthy doses of criticism for fun and amusement.
Ah, but the silent assumption here is that the game you want to play can be made within a budget that allows it to be priced for a dollar value you are willing to pay.
What if, for example, there was a hypothetical company that for purposes of the example had the most efficient and streamlined MMO production methodologies amongst all the game studios. They make the MMO that is everything you want to play, but due to the cost of making the game they must charge $50/mo and a $200 box. Would you purchase the game and subscribe? What about $100/mo and a $300 box? At some point, there will be a cost that you are not willing to pay.
I think what studios feel that players are willing pay for an MMO dictates the limit of features (and to some degree polish, as this is always a time/resource tradeoff) therein. It is quite possible that the MMO you want to play cannot be made within a budget that allows a cost you are willing to pay as a consumer.
Agreed OP. But I had to see for myself, me being both a Star Trek fan and an MMO fan! I can't see myself paying for another month beyond my free one.
That's a very good point. I think what game developers (and possibly the publishers) are finding out is that the cost and time to create these games and to create them polished and feature rich is at odds with the sheer amount of money it takes to make them as well as what they are going to get for revenue once the game goes live.
As in your example, if a game company were to say "look, we can guarantee a complete reasonably bug free product that is feature rich but it's going to cost more for everyone" I think players would be rushing to the forums to complain.
In a you tube video of Aion's head dev, he comes out and says that what players are expecting is content on the level of WoW as far as quantity and that is a difficult thing to do given what they have. It was actually very interesting.
If we look at the mmo releases in the past 2 years or so it seems that a sort of wall has been hit. These companies can't seem to do it all. So something is going to have to give or change.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo