They attempted the fight four times before they finally got it down. That was four chances for them to notice that a section of terrain that had been destroyed was rebuilt. Additionally, the bombs had to be used next to the broken terrain, which to my understanding is abnormal. Were this Ensidia's first time being caught abusing an exploit, I would be more forgiving and consider that maybe they really did have no idea what was causing it. The reality however, is that Ensidia has been caught and banned previously for abusing game mechanics, specifically to achieve world firsts.
still sounds like a load to me if they was using some third party hack or something i could see it but to give the fact that saronite bombs did that doesnt seem to me to be exploiting anything i mean who doesnt want a boss fight to go easier? who wouldnt use something that he has at hand quite frankly having played wow if i used anything in my inventory i would expect it to be allowed otherwise it should be greyed out or some restriction on the item if anything removal of achievements and stuff sounds acceptable 3 day bans for ppl doing what anyone else would do in the same situation doesnt seem acceptable
Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is within the rules of the game.
If someone uses bombs all the time for some extra damage, then no problem. If for some reason that same bomb in the next encounter causes the boss to lose the ability to attack, summon adds or in this case, remove major mechanics from the encounter, then it is obviously a bug.
It doesn't take rocket science for a player to figure out that an encounter was not designed around having gross amounts of engineers with a specific item to accomplish victory.
I have been in some big raiding guilds that competed for world firsts and trust me when I say that they know exactly what they are doing is against the rules. Every member may not know what is going on, but the leadership certainly does.
Due to the 1 minute cooldown on the bombs, I bet you there was a major upswing in engineers for that guild prior to this encounter.
yea but blame the people doing it? how can it even be labeled as wrong when it is allowed to be used in the first place i mean this is supposdly why ppl test this stuff and usually someone abusing a glitch doesnt get banned for it they just fix it sounds to me like blizz had someone else in mind for this "world first"
Well, yes blame the people doing it.
Regardless of whether a game company's testing catches the glitch or error, it's still a glitch or error that is in the game.
Players know that once they find these things that they are to be reported.
I find it difficult to believe that most players discovering something that is not intended but do it anyway would not know that they risk some sort of slap on the hand.
It's beyond the pale to believe that "because the game company didn't catch this it's ok to do" is a viable excuse.
At that point players are just telling themselves stories.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If Blizzard isn't able to fix a bug on release of a patch, is it really the fault of the player for taking advantage? This is the fault of programming, no the players, and taking away achievements and loot is one thing, but to ban players is a complete different thing. It's stupid, and I have never understood the logic.
Does Blizzard get banned for making the bugs possible? Nope, so neither should those who take advantage of their mistakes.
A very high portion of Ensidia's raid first have been done with some type of exploit, this is nothing new, folks have been talking about this and their gold buying habits for ages and Blizzard has been aware, and even now it's a temp ban, and lets face it folks if it was any other guild it would have been a prema ban.
Just more of Blizzard having different rules for different people.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave And it howls! it howls like hell!
If Blizzard isn't able to fix a bug on release of a patch, is it really the fault of the player for taking advantage? This is the fault of programming, no the players, and taking away achievements and loot is one thing, but to ban players is a complete different thing. It's stupid, and I have never understood the logic. Does Blizzard get banned for making the bugs possible? Nope, so neither should those who take advantage of their mistakes.
Everyone knows the rules in relation to this subject and has for as Long as WoW has been in operation. To take advantage of exploits or bugs at this point in the game is simply taking a high risk chance of getting banned and stripped. Putting the blame on Blizzard is down right foolish and really just an advertisement of I'm going to do whatever I want even if its against the rules.
Everyone that plays video games knows that bugs happen and there's always going to be something funky not accounted for and everyone that plays games also knows that in MMOs taking advantage of those bugs is against the rules regardless.
Please ...in any game people use cheats and exploits to feel superior in some way. FPS, Single player, consoles, MMO's
It is not WoW related thou this is of course. People will do whatever it takes to be first, be the best and be cool since most gamers that work this hard at a game need it for whatever personal reasons.
Bugs and Glitches, used more than once is an exploit and should be a total banfest...but they are paying customers and since it doesnt effect anyone else...it is a minor ban.
Isnt the first time and wont be the last time that someone in WoW has done so, and they arent the only ones thats for sure.
still sounds like a load to me if they was using some third party hack or something i could see it but to give the fact that saronite bombs did that doesnt seem to me to be exploiting anything i mean who doesnt want a boss fight to go easier? who wouldnt use something that he has at hand quite frankly having played wow if i used anything in my inventory i would expect it to be allowed otherwise it should be greyed out or some restriction on the item if anything removal of achievements and stuff sounds acceptable 3 day bans for ppl doing what anyone else would do in the same situation doesnt seem acceptable
Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is within the rules of the game.
If someone uses bombs all the time for some extra damage, then no problem. If for some reason that same bomb in the next encounter causes the boss to lose the ability to attack, summon adds or in this case, remove major mechanics from the encounter, then it is obviously a bug.
It doesn't take rocket science for a player to figure out that an encounter was not designed around having gross amounts of engineers with a specific item to accomplish victory.
I have been in some big raiding guilds that competed for world firsts and trust me when I say that they know exactly what they are doing is against the rules. Every member may not know what is going on, but the leadership certainly does.
Due to the 1 minute cooldown on the bombs, I bet you there was a major upswing in engineers for that guild prior to this encounter.
yea but blame the people doing it? how can it even be labeled as wrong when it is allowed to be used in the first place i mean this is supposdly why ppl test this stuff and usually someone abusing a glitch doesnt get banned for it they just fix it sounds to me like blizz had someone else in mind for this "world first"
Well, yes blame the people doing it.
Regardless of whether a game company's testing catches the glitch or error, it's still a glitch or error that is in the game.
Players know that once they find these things that they are to be reported.
I find it difficult to believe that most players discovering something that is not intended but do it anyway would not know that they risk some sort of slap on the hand.
It's beyond the pale to believe that "because the game company didn't catch this it's ok to do" is a viable excuse.
At that point players are just telling themselves stories.
well honestly i wouldnt see it as a glitch at all if im playing a game and something happens i consider it apart of game play if my character gets stuck in a rock and i have to jump to get out of it i just consider it apart of the game experience then i know what not to do to get stuck in said rock
if im making items for what is considerable a large scale instance then im not going to think twice about doing anything and everything in my arsenal to finish that instance
if that involves using something that occurs every time something that gives me an advantage then i say use it
most that shoulda happened here was removal of said achievements and the hotfix
the ban was just over the top punishing players for doing something anyone would have
you in a fight with the most supposed bad ass in the game you dont expect someone to do something that would give them an advantage?
i will also add im not condoning use of a bot or any such trickery like hacking the game this was clearly something that blizzard shoulda caught beforehand and not only that the only reason they are punishing anyone is cuz they were made to look stupid when some players used the game against itself
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave And it howls! it howls like hell!
If sections of a dungeon are resetting when you are using this item, then it is pretty clear that there is a major bug there and you shouldn't be doing it.
The truth is players never want to accept the punishement when they know they've done wrong. They will fight it and cry about it and never accept it. Then people want to argue the shades of grey on how this could be different if this or that.
The simple fact is, if you do something in game and get a result that clearly shouldn't of happened then you have found a bug. Do that again and you are exploiting the bug you have found. It is that simple and it is always easy to know when what is happening is a bug. And no you don't get a warning when you exploit you get banned, and it should be a lot longer then 3 days.
It is clearly stated in every CoC and EULA that using bugs for any kind of gain is against the rules. It doesn't matter if you were the first to find it, and no it doesn't mean you can do it because the company didn't find it right away and fix it. You agree to those CoC and EULAs when you play, no ifs ands or buts.
My Reply - (sorry I thought I hit the quote button)
PLZ ok. I played WoW off and on for a very short time. And I know for a fact that Blizzards Pride is hurt because players figured out how to beat a boss that they worked hard on very easly.
And here is your proof lets recall a dungeon thats in WoW called the Dreadmines. Just before the final fight with Van Cleef. There is a Water Wheel next to boat. If your group starts to wipe or.... You have your healer stand on that wheel and what does that cause the entire dungeon to do? It causes it to reset and retry again without wiping or if your healer wants to he/she can over aggro on his heals and no creature in the entire dungeon can harm anyone can attack him while hes there. How many times have people taken advantage of that exploit not to mention Blizzard has known about that bug for ages and I gurantee if I log in right now I can go back to that wheel and stand on it with my level 20 rogue noob and nothing will happen to me still to this day. Have they fixed this yet? I assure you they haven't yeah its a low level boss but, its been like that forever. Even since people first went down there to fight that monster.
Wanna strip that guild of the Title of taking Arthas down first fine. But a ban for something that they figured out during a raid encounter that worked for them weither or not it was working as intended is BS. Not to mention to pass judgement on them so quickly without a warning is a joke as well. To pass judgement so harshly on an epic fight yet let thousands upon thousands of others pass on Dreadmines and Van Cleef fight not to mention probably thousands reported even probably during beta reported it. If you are going to stick to your guildlines you need to be consistant then. Ban everyone for 3 days.
Also one more thing now that blizzard is in its 5 years. I gurantee you every boss mob is going to be taken down now with trickery or some sort of glitch, it was the same with EQ. So, lets see how fast they hand out bans during epic fights with Cata.
The bombs caused sections of the floor that were previously destroyed to be rebuild. A big part of the fight was that the floor would be destroyed and thus make the fight harder as time went by. Thus using bombs to repair masonry allowed to eliminate the time pressure and make the fight much easier. If that is not a really big flag that the encounter is glitched then I do not know that is.
If Blizzard isn't able to fix a bug on release of a patch, is it really the fault of the player for taking advantage? This is the fault of programming, no the players, and taking away achievements and loot is one thing, but to ban players is a complete different thing. It's stupid, and I have never understood the logic. Does Blizzard get banned for making the bugs possible? Nope, so neither should those who take advantage of their mistakes.
Everyone knows the rules in relation to this subject and has for as Long as WoW has been in operation. To take advantage of exploits or bugs at this point in the game is simply taking a high risk chance of getting banned and stripped. Putting the blame on Blizzard is down right foolish and really just an advertisement of I'm going to do whatever I want even if its against the rules.
Everyone that plays video games knows that bugs happen and there's always going to be something funky not accounted for and everyone that plays games also knows that in MMOs taking advantage of those bugs is against the rules regardless.
They got what they deserved.
My point isn't that Ensidia didn't know better, it's that I don't think Blizzard should be banning people for their mistakes.
Originally posted by joker007mo well honestly i wouldnt see it as a glitch at all if im playing a game and something happens i consider it apart of game play if my character gets stuck in a rock and i have to jump to get out of it i just consider it apart of the game experience then i know what not to do to get stuck in said rock if im making items for what is considerable a large scale instance then im not going to think twice about doing anything and everything in my arsenal to finish that instance if that involves using something that occurs every time something that gives me an advantage then i say use it most that shoulda happened here was removal of said achievements and the hotfix the ban was just over the top punishing players for doing something anyone would have you in a fight with the most supposed bad ass in the game you dont expect someone to do something that would give them an advantage? i will also add im not condoning use of a bot or any such trickery like hacking the game this was clearly something that blizzard shoulda caught beforehand and not only that the only reason they are punishing anyone is cuz they were made to look stupid when some players used the game against itself
I really disagree with your logic that everyone would do the same thing in the same situation.
Also, there is a reason game developers put rules about exploiting in their game. Unless you want to operate on the assumption that game designers are omnipotent and never miss anything, then you have to accept that there will be unintended errors. Many of which are obvious some which are not. Some mistakes are overlooked and others are not, but just because something wasn't caught doesn't mean it is ok to cheat.
I have never bought into the theory of "well its in game so it should be ok". I can think of an equal number of mistakes developers have made that work against the favor of the players and the first thing players ask for is GM intervention. I somehow doubt people would look at someone getting your items from the auction hall without paying as a game feature that is fine to engage in. Just for example.
It is a very 1 sided argument that only gets used when there is a bug that somehow benefits players that it should somehow be ok to exploit.
See, and that's the problem. Something is possible, I'm going to do it. If you don't like it, fix the content so I can't do it anymore. Yeah, i'll be sad... but hey you fixed it. Here: Blizzard punished people for something that was obviously Blizzard's fault.
Blizzard punished people for exploiting a bug, seems fair to me.
Lots of things are possible, such as robbing banks. Don't expect a free pass though.
Exploiting a bug?
"(i) Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs" to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;"
Every raider had access to the same bug. There was no advantage.
The content was available to everyone.
If Blizzard fixed the bug, everyone would be in the same boat.
No, their "punishment" was merely a reaction and abuse of power.
What they did, was take the opportunity to hang a group of people up and whip them in front of their community for making Blizzard look bad and making their "Epic encounter" easy.
Blizzard hoped it would take individuals alot longer... and because of Blizzard's screw-up... that won't be the case.
What would players have left to do once Arthas was on "farm status"?
Yeah... I think Blizzard was more upset about that, than anything else. Probably because they don't have Cataclysm ready for the near future.
Its pretty obvious these guys knew about the exploit even before the content was released. If it were reported on the test realm it most surely would have been fixed.
Its the responsibility of the players to recognize a bug and immediately report it and then stop doing whatever is causing the exploit. These guys here knew what they were doing and did it anyway just so they could gain from it.
They deserve more than 3 days off.
People trying to spin this into being Blizzards fault are hilarious.
Its pretty obvious these guys knew about the exploit even before the content was released. If it were reported on the test realm it most surely would have been fixed.
As far as i've seen... This wasn't on the PTR. No players had a chance to test it.
Blizzard released it in full confidence that everything was working.
Then got flustered when that proved to not be the case.
Its pretty obvious these guys knew about the exploit even before the content was released. If it were reported on the test realm it most surely would have been fixed.
As far as i've seen... This wasn't on the PTR. No players had a chance to test it.
Blizzard released it in full confidence that everything was working.
Then got flustered when that proved to not be the case.
Just because something wasn't on the PUBLIC test server, doesn't mean it wasn't tested.
the thing is that when we get countless amount of bugs and stuff that make our life hard in game blizzard just apologize and try to fix it.. when we use some bugs in our favor we get banned... so who gonna ban blizzard next time a mob avoid me (and gets full health) while i was almost about to kill it...who gonna pay my gear repears while im losing by their fault? they should fix their bugs asap...we should be able to use whatever they allow us.. they even have test servers the fault is theirs and only.. and 3 days ban maybe isnt seem too much..but actually for a top guild like ensidia in a new content period its catastrophic cause they gona lose allmost all (if not ALL) first kills...... so fuck blizz and their fucking bugs/exploits etc...
While there is some doubt about what happened I honestly doubt that a guild that has been beating encounters world first since WoW was released did not figure out that a bug was going on during the kill that a core mechanic of the fight wasnt working, if they did know it was the saronite bombs or not its debateable and frankly we will never know if they did or not, but that they knew that something wasnt working, I am almost certain they did, what happened is they didnt care if it was right or wrong and just continued.
Had they been worried about committing a possible offense or exploit they would just stop the kill and report it, and then tried again, instead they most likely realized and continued regardless and then ofc reported it like the good samaritans, I have the feeling this is not the first time this has happened with ensidia and blizzard probably got a bit pissed off they carried on and killed it/announced it to the world and banned them, righfully so, the bug was blizzard's fault, if they had the ability to report it after the fight then they knew it was a bug was it was happening and they disregarded the unfair advantage and just continued.
This is not to say any other guild would stop, but they were the first to do it, and the first to be punished for doing it.
However even if that guild understood it was a bug and exploited it they should not have been banned.
It would have been much more intelligent to:
Acknowledge it was a bug
Remove the achievements and items only from the encounter that was bugged/exploited
As mentioned by EricDanie let them redo the the last part skipping the previous mobs
Maybe even more give some sort of compensation to the players
And not the least apologize for the major and obvious bug.
While I don't agree with the tone in the last part of the email, even if i can understand the feeling of the players, honestly it's as much Blizzard fault than the guild one.
Simply put that move wasn't much better than SOE usual way.
Look here on WoW.com! Ensidia's got banned for using saronite bombs during the Lich King encounter, as they repair the area and make it a lot easier to move around in. They also got the achievements and items removed!
Blizzard got butthurt that they failed at programming so they ban people smart enough to take advantage of it.
Sounds like religion to me. lols
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
While there is some doubt about what happened I honestly doubt that a guild that has been beating encounters world first since WoW was released did not figure out that a bug was going on during the kill that a core mechanic of the fight wasnt working, if they did know it was the saronite bombs or not its debateable and frankly we will never know if they did or not, but that they knew that something wasnt working, I am almost certain they did, what happened is they didnt care if it was right or wrong and just continued. Had they been worried about committing a possible offense or exploit they would just stop the kill and report it, and then tried again, instead they most likely realized and continued regardless and then ofc reported it like the good samaritans, I have the feeling this is not the first time this has happened with ensidia and blizzard probably got a bit pissed off they carried on and killed it/announced it to the world and banned them, righfully so, the bug was blizzard's fault, if they had the ability to report it after the fight then they knew it was a bug was it was happening and they disregarded the unfair advantage and just continued. This is not to say any other guild would stop, but they were the first to do it, and the first to be punished for doing it.
Nihilum, of which core members went to Ensidia, had patterned history of mechanics abuse. Vashj downings immediately come to mind. None of this is surprising, really.
That being said, it's no surprise either that Blizzard try to 'make an example' out of them. There are far more numerous bugs with far more accessible avenues that have run rampant in their products that never see the light of day in coverage, and individuals who used them had no reverse action taken (the numerous BG bugs that existed for months on end anyone?).
The only reason why anyone cares, is because of the model that WoW follows, one of endgame carrot-on-a-stick raiding, and so Blizzard cares enough to do something about this, because it suits their needs, not their consumers.
It's akin to being outspoken about breast cancer versus diarrhea. The one is more popular, despite the other posing a more numerous risk (and outcome).
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
They attempted the fight four times before they finally got it down. That was four chances for them to notice that a section of terrain that had been destroyed was rebuilt. Additionally, the bombs had to be used next to the broken terrain, which to my understanding is abnormal. Were this Ensidia's first time being caught abusing an exploit, I would be more forgiving and consider that maybe they really did have no idea what was causing it. The reality however, is that Ensidia has been caught and banned previously for abusing game mechanics, specifically to achieve world firsts.
In my opinion, three days is not long enough.
Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is within the rules of the game.
If someone uses bombs all the time for some extra damage, then no problem. If for some reason that same bomb in the next encounter causes the boss to lose the ability to attack, summon adds or in this case, remove major mechanics from the encounter, then it is obviously a bug.
It doesn't take rocket science for a player to figure out that an encounter was not designed around having gross amounts of engineers with a specific item to accomplish victory.
I have been in some big raiding guilds that competed for world firsts and trust me when I say that they know exactly what they are doing is against the rules. Every member may not know what is going on, but the leadership certainly does.
Due to the 1 minute cooldown on the bombs, I bet you there was a major upswing in engineers for that guild prior to this encounter.
yea but blame the people doing it? how can it even be labeled as wrong when it is allowed to be used in the first place i mean this is supposdly why ppl test this stuff and usually someone abusing a glitch doesnt get banned for it they just fix it sounds to me like blizz had someone else in mind for this "world first"
Well, yes blame the people doing it.
Regardless of whether a game company's testing catches the glitch or error, it's still a glitch or error that is in the game.
Players know that once they find these things that they are to be reported.
I find it difficult to believe that most players discovering something that is not intended but do it anyway would not know that they risk some sort of slap on the hand.
It's beyond the pale to believe that "because the game company didn't catch this it's ok to do" is a viable excuse.
At that point players are just telling themselves stories.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If Blizzard isn't able to fix a bug on release of a patch, is it really the fault of the player for taking advantage? This is the fault of programming, no the players, and taking away achievements and loot is one thing, but to ban players is a complete different thing. It's stupid, and I have never understood the logic.
Does Blizzard get banned for making the bugs possible? Nope, so neither should those who take advantage of their mistakes.
A very high portion of Ensidia's raid first have been done with some type of exploit, this is nothing new, folks have been talking about this and their gold buying habits for ages and Blizzard has been aware, and even now it's a temp ban, and lets face it folks if it was any other guild it would have been a prema ban.
Just more of Blizzard having different rules for different people.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should
Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave
Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave
And it howls! it howls like hell!
Everyone knows the rules in relation to this subject and has for as Long as WoW has been in operation. To take advantage of exploits or bugs at this point in the game is simply taking a high risk chance of getting banned and stripped. Putting the blame on Blizzard is down right foolish and really just an advertisement of I'm going to do whatever I want even if its against the rules.
Everyone that plays video games knows that bugs happen and there's always going to be something funky not accounted for and everyone that plays games also knows that in MMOs taking advantage of those bugs is against the rules regardless.
They got what they deserved.
Please ...in any game people use cheats and exploits to feel superior in some way. FPS, Single player, consoles, MMO's
It is not WoW related thou this is of course. People will do whatever it takes to be first, be the best and be cool since most gamers that work this hard at a game need it for whatever personal reasons.
Bugs and Glitches, used more than once is an exploit and should be a total banfest...but they are paying customers and since it doesnt effect anyone else...it is a minor ban.
Isnt the first time and wont be the last time that someone in WoW has done so, and they arent the only ones thats for sure.
Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is within the rules of the game.
If someone uses bombs all the time for some extra damage, then no problem. If for some reason that same bomb in the next encounter causes the boss to lose the ability to attack, summon adds or in this case, remove major mechanics from the encounter, then it is obviously a bug.
It doesn't take rocket science for a player to figure out that an encounter was not designed around having gross amounts of engineers with a specific item to accomplish victory.
I have been in some big raiding guilds that competed for world firsts and trust me when I say that they know exactly what they are doing is against the rules. Every member may not know what is going on, but the leadership certainly does.
Due to the 1 minute cooldown on the bombs, I bet you there was a major upswing in engineers for that guild prior to this encounter.
yea but blame the people doing it? how can it even be labeled as wrong when it is allowed to be used in the first place i mean this is supposdly why ppl test this stuff and usually someone abusing a glitch doesnt get banned for it they just fix it sounds to me like blizz had someone else in mind for this "world first"
Well, yes blame the people doing it.
Regardless of whether a game company's testing catches the glitch or error, it's still a glitch or error that is in the game.
Players know that once they find these things that they are to be reported.
I find it difficult to believe that most players discovering something that is not intended but do it anyway would not know that they risk some sort of slap on the hand.
It's beyond the pale to believe that "because the game company didn't catch this it's ok to do" is a viable excuse.
At that point players are just telling themselves stories.
well honestly i wouldnt see it as a glitch at all if im playing a game and something happens i consider it apart of game play if my character gets stuck in a rock and i have to jump to get out of it i just consider it apart of the game experience then i know what not to do to get stuck in said rock
if im making items for what is considerable a large scale instance then im not going to think twice about doing anything and everything in my arsenal to finish that instance
if that involves using something that occurs every time something that gives me an advantage then i say use it
most that shoulda happened here was removal of said achievements and the hotfix
the ban was just over the top punishing players for doing something anyone would have
you in a fight with the most supposed bad ass in the game you dont expect someone to do something that would give them an advantage?
i will also add im not condoning use of a bot or any such trickery like hacking the game this was clearly something that blizzard shoulda caught beforehand and not only that the only reason they are punishing anyone is cuz they were made to look stupid when some players used the game against itself
Here is a link to the email and thier reply to Blizzard.
Such Classy guys.....
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should
Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave
Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave
And it howls! it howls like hell!
Quoted from SnarlingWolf
If sections of a dungeon are resetting when you are using this item, then it is pretty clear that there is a major bug there and you shouldn't be doing it.
The truth is players never want to accept the punishement when they know they've done wrong. They will fight it and cry about it and never accept it. Then people want to argue the shades of grey on how this could be different if this or that.
The simple fact is, if you do something in game and get a result that clearly shouldn't of happened then you have found a bug. Do that again and you are exploiting the bug you have found. It is that simple and it is always easy to know when what is happening is a bug. And no you don't get a warning when you exploit you get banned, and it should be a lot longer then 3 days.
It is clearly stated in every CoC and EULA that using bugs for any kind of gain is against the rules. It doesn't matter if you were the first to find it, and no it doesn't mean you can do it because the company didn't find it right away and fix it. You agree to those CoC and EULAs when you play, no ifs ands or buts.
My Reply - (sorry I thought I hit the quote button)
PLZ ok. I played WoW off and on for a very short time. And I know for a fact that Blizzards Pride is hurt because players figured out how to beat a boss that they worked hard on very easly.
And here is your proof lets recall a dungeon thats in WoW called the Dreadmines. Just before the final fight with Van Cleef. There is a Water Wheel next to boat. If your group starts to wipe or.... You have your healer stand on that wheel and what does that cause the entire dungeon to do? It causes it to reset and retry again without wiping or if your healer wants to he/she can over aggro on his heals and no creature in the entire dungeon can harm anyone can attack him while hes there. How many times have people taken advantage of that exploit not to mention Blizzard has known about that bug for ages and I gurantee if I log in right now I can go back to that wheel and stand on it with my level 20 rogue noob and nothing will happen to me still to this day. Have they fixed this yet? I assure you they haven't yeah its a low level boss but, its been like that forever. Even since people first went down there to fight that monster.
Wanna strip that guild of the Title of taking Arthas down first fine. But a ban for something that they figured out during a raid encounter that worked for them weither or not it was working as intended is BS. Not to mention to pass judgement on them so quickly without a warning is a joke as well. To pass judgement so harshly on an epic fight yet let thousands upon thousands of others pass on Dreadmines and Van Cleef fight not to mention probably thousands reported even probably during beta reported it. If you are going to stick to your guildlines you need to be consistant then. Ban everyone for 3 days.
Also one more thing now that blizzard is in its 5 years. I gurantee you every boss mob is going to be taken down now with trickery or some sort of glitch, it was the same with EQ. So, lets see how fast they hand out bans during epic fights with Cata.
That'll show Ensidia for testing Blizzards content for them.
Edit: Why not just take away the boss kill (achievement, loot, etcetera) and leave it at that? Ban seems excessive in my opinion.
That would be exploitative and justly punished.
Maybe Furor banned them!
Ah, old good Z-plane exploit...
Everyone knows the rules in relation to this subject and has for as Long as WoW has been in operation. To take advantage of exploits or bugs at this point in the game is simply taking a high risk chance of getting banned and stripped. Putting the blame on Blizzard is down right foolish and really just an advertisement of I'm going to do whatever I want even if its against the rules.
Everyone that plays video games knows that bugs happen and there's always going to be something funky not accounted for and everyone that plays games also knows that in MMOs taking advantage of those bugs is against the rules regardless.
They got what they deserved.
My point isn't that Ensidia didn't know better, it's that I don't think Blizzard should be banning people for their mistakes.
I really disagree with your logic that everyone would do the same thing in the same situation.
Also, there is a reason game developers put rules about exploiting in their game. Unless you want to operate on the assumption that game designers are omnipotent and never miss anything, then you have to accept that there will be unintended errors. Many of which are obvious some which are not. Some mistakes are overlooked and others are not, but just because something wasn't caught doesn't mean it is ok to cheat.
I have never bought into the theory of "well its in game so it should be ok". I can think of an equal number of mistakes developers have made that work against the favor of the players and the first thing players ask for is GM intervention. I somehow doubt people would look at someone getting your items from the auction hall without paying as a game feature that is fine to engage in. Just for example.
It is a very 1 sided argument that only gets used when there is a bug that somehow benefits players that it should somehow be ok to exploit.
Blizzard punished people for exploiting a bug, seems fair to me.
Lots of things are possible, such as robbing banks. Don't expect a free pass though.
Exploiting a bug?
"(i) Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs" to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;"
Every raider had access to the same bug. There was no advantage.
The content was available to everyone.
If Blizzard fixed the bug, everyone would be in the same boat.
No, their "punishment" was merely a reaction and abuse of power.
What they did, was take the opportunity to hang a group of people up and whip them in front of their community for making Blizzard look bad and making their "Epic encounter" easy.
Blizzard hoped it would take individuals alot longer... and because of Blizzard's screw-up... that won't be the case.
What would players have left to do once Arthas was on "farm status"?
Yeah... I think Blizzard was more upset about that, than anything else. Probably because they don't have Cataclysm ready for the near future.
Its pretty obvious these guys knew about the exploit even before the content was released. If it were reported on the test realm it most surely would have been fixed.
Its the responsibility of the players to recognize a bug and immediately report it and then stop doing whatever is causing the exploit. These guys here knew what they were doing and did it anyway just so they could gain from it.
They deserve more than 3 days off.
People trying to spin this into being Blizzards fault are hilarious.
As far as i've seen... This wasn't on the PTR. No players had a chance to test it.
Blizzard released it in full confidence that everything was working.
Then got flustered when that proved to not be the case.
As far as i've seen... This wasn't on the PTR. No players had a chance to test it.
Blizzard released it in full confidence that everything was working.
Then got flustered when that proved to not be the case.
Just because something wasn't on the PUBLIC test server, doesn't mean it wasn't tested.
the thing is that when we get countless amount of bugs and stuff that make our life hard in game blizzard just apologize and try to fix it.. when we use some bugs in our favor we get banned... so who gonna ban blizzard next time a mob avoid me (and gets full health) while i was almost about to kill it...who gonna pay my gear repears while im losing by their fault? they should fix their bugs asap...we should be able to use whatever they allow us.. they even have test servers the fault is theirs and only.. and 3 days ban maybe isnt seem too much..but actually for a top guild like ensidia in a new content period its catastrophic cause they gona lose allmost all (if not ALL) first kills...... so fuck blizz and their fucking bugs/exploits etc...
While there is some doubt about what happened I honestly doubt that a guild that has been beating encounters world first since WoW was released did not figure out that a bug was going on during the kill that a core mechanic of the fight wasnt working, if they did know it was the saronite bombs or not its debateable and frankly we will never know if they did or not, but that they knew that something wasnt working, I am almost certain they did, what happened is they didnt care if it was right or wrong and just continued.
Had they been worried about committing a possible offense or exploit they would just stop the kill and report it, and then tried again, instead they most likely realized and continued regardless and then ofc reported it like the good samaritans, I have the feeling this is not the first time this has happened with ensidia and blizzard probably got a bit pissed off they carried on and killed it/announced it to the world and banned them, righfully so, the bug was blizzard's fault, if they had the ability to report it after the fight then they knew it was a bug was it was happening and they disregarded the unfair advantage and just continued.
This is not to say any other guild would stop, but they were the first to do it, and the first to be punished for doing it.
Rav3n2 has very solid points.
However even if that guild understood it was a bug and exploited it they should not have been banned.
It would have been much more intelligent to:
While I don't agree with the tone in the last part of the email, even if i can understand the feeling of the players, honestly it's as much Blizzard fault than the guild one.
Simply put that move wasn't much better than SOE usual way.
Blizzard got butthurt that they failed at programming so they ban people smart enough to take advantage of it.
Sounds like religion to me. lols
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
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Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
Nihilum, of which core members went to Ensidia, had patterned history of mechanics abuse. Vashj downings immediately come to mind. None of this is surprising, really.
That being said, it's no surprise either that Blizzard try to 'make an example' out of them. There are far more numerous bugs with far more accessible avenues that have run rampant in their products that never see the light of day in coverage, and individuals who used them had no reverse action taken (the numerous BG bugs that existed for months on end anyone?).
The only reason why anyone cares, is because of the model that WoW follows, one of endgame carrot-on-a-stick raiding, and so Blizzard cares enough to do something about this, because it suits their needs, not their consumers.
It's akin to being outspoken about breast cancer versus diarrhea. The one is more popular, despite the other posing a more numerous risk (and outcome).
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Well, if I was a member of the banned guild I'd quit and stop paying Blizzard any money.
But they lack the strength of character to do that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good work Blizzard, hopefully it sends a message NOT to use obvious exploits ingame.