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EVE vs WoW PvP
andragor
Member Posts: 17
I played WoW and Guild Wars for a few years. Two months ago I decided to give the famous EVE Online a try. Sadly I found out that this perfect game is not for me. I have three causes for that.
Zero cause (won't count it as first) is that I don't like the space. Not counting gas clouds and sun, it's almost always the black DARKNESS that you see on your display and I kinda miss the blue sky, green grass, emerald water and mountain peaks on the horizon. And also you are your ship - you can change it, but you can't walk out of it, EVER.
First cause is full drop and part loot system. When you lose a fight in EVE, you lose your ship, all modules fitted and sometimes your body with costly implants. When you win, you get part of the modules and cargo which was not destroyed. Only the best and long-time players could survive by PvP only, as more often than not your ship destruction will cost much more than you looted from previous victories. For majority of players who win as often as lose, PvP is a huge money sink. This leads us to the moment where people who wants to PvP are forced to waste a solid amount of time (usually more than 50% of playtime) on PvE activities to make money for their ships. I found these PvE activities like mission/plex running, ratting, mining and some others too boring to enjoy them.
Second cause is the rarity of a fight. Space is huge with its thousands of systems. Most of his time a PvP player will spend not to fighting, but to scouting, trying to find out systems with good targets (not an easy thing in alliance part of null-sec) or target's location in a system. Even if there is a target the fight might not happen, if you consider it too strong or the target is aware and consider you stronger.
Third cause is the speed of a fight. After you spent a couple of hours roaming or camping at gate looking for a good target, when you succeeded at last the fight can be extremely fast - half a minute or even less for hours of search. Well, for someone these 30 seconds are the heart of EVE, but for me its just a too small cake for such a big queue at the store.
When I look back on what WoW and Guild Wars give me for PvP I found that it is:
- a non-stop progress without any losses
- absence of need to spend time on PvE to PvP (except leveling in WoW)
- the fight is right here and I am right in it 30 seconds after login (on BGs or arenas)
- the fight is going non-stop and last long for minutes or even hours, where I can have hundreds of kills and deaths and still progress and enjoy
- finally it's so good to be in a living body and enjoy the colors of the planet world.
So this is why I have said good-bye to EVE, which is a great game, but not for me. You think different?
Comments
The rarity thing is what gets me. That and the lopsidedness of the fights.
EVE is actually a pretty cool combat system...if it shed the deadweight deadweight mechanics and was instanced instead, it'd actually be considerably more fun. You'd spend all your time playing instead of waiting. You'd get the same great combat system with all it's config-loading fun. The credit and skill limitations to devices/ships would be removed and replaced with another system (basically something that generates a spread of ship types for players; like you get assigned a credit value and you can't spend more than that on your loadouts for a given battle.) Add to that a fun series of interesting objectives (various bases and ships) and "maps" (which would still be very large so that troop logistics remain an interesting part of the strategy,) and you'd have a pretty slick game which was genuinely about PVP.
It really comes back to the design topic I've been thinking a lot about lately, of how much control designers truly have over the specific moment-to-moment activities of the player. EVE is a very different beast from Planetside. Planetside's complete omission of PVE, crafting, and painful death penalty ensured that fighting was near-constant. It didn't make the game shallow by any stretch (far from it, it's one of the deepest games I've played, with many layers of strategic scale.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
TLDNR version:
I like 30 minute fights where winning is meaningless.
Space is too dark.
- a non-stop progress without any losses
So even monkey can progress? No thx.
- absence of need to spend time on PvE to PvP (except leveling in WoW)
Some are predators, some are preys. You were prey.
- the fight is right here and I am right in it 30 seconds after login (on BGs or arenas)
That's not mmorpg with living world. That's multiplayer game (like wow)
- the fight is going non-stop and last long for minutes or even hours, where I can have hundreds of kills and deaths and still progress and enjoy
To gain what? People PvP in EVE for fun and enjoyment from victory. If you are winning 200 times a day it becomes norm, not achievement.
- finally it's so good to be in a living body and enjoy the colors of the planet world.
That's a matter of taste and I understand why you are looking for shiny things since your WoW character have more lights on it than even larger EVE spaceship.
Since they don't compare apples to oranges, being two completely different styles of pvp, it really a matter of personal preference. Comparing the good and bad of one to the other is kind of pointless.
WoW offers pvp for the sake of pvp WoW offers the best chance for balanced 1v1 pvp with no consequences
EvE offers gameworld relevant pvp where the outcome can impact you, your corporation (guild) and change how the gameworld itself is organized.
Comparing EvE to WoW is like comparing a Car with a pencil.
Why are you comparing WoW with Eve at all? 2 completely different games. Guess what, I LIKE both of them.
WoW is just more action oriented and easy to get into, Eve is more thought oriented and harsh.
Guess what though, Eve has a hundred times more depth to it and is where it is superior, to me at least, over WoW. My biggest beef with WoW is the lack of depth and how it hasn't grown horizontally only vertically. But I will still play the game when they launch their expacks, hoping they address this issue. Until then, and even during and after, I will be playing Eve too.
Both are low skill.
Eve is based on TIME and ISK to achieve the setup you want/need
WOW is based on instancing for the gear you need/want.Neither premise has anything to do with earning or skill.The instancing can be repeated over and over and is usually fairly easy as 90% never fail,so it takes VERY little effort to attain the gear you want.PVP cannot be taken seriously in these games or ANY MMORPG,the developers have designed super cheap combat that would not be satisfying to any true PVP player.
PVP should be even across the board,RPG elements should be apart from PVP,current designs are just a carrot on a stick design to keep players coming back in hopes of having a better equipped ship or better gear,neither design should be taken seriously both are just a gimmick to keep subs coming back.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It is just plainly untrue that only the best and oldest could make a profit from solely PvP combat. It isnt the most profitable thing to do in EVE, by far. But since you can fit a couple of tech 1 frigates for a fraction of the cost of what they can take down in a duo, it can be done with relative ease.... Granted finding a target is the most labourious part of pvp.. I will give you that. And that is where skill and experience can help shorten the time to find a target or to increase the pool of targets you can take on.
I will also agree that you need a fairly good understanding of the game to keep your head above water. But that doesnt mean you cant learn all that from other players. There is no requirement to have played for years to know all this. I would even think that many newer players know far more about the game that some that have played it for years.
As I said..... you dont need lots of skill points or a fancy pimped out ship.. what you need is knowledge and you can beat people that have lots of skill points and a fancy pimped out ship.... sometimes.. and by sometimes I mean more often than not.
Unlike in EVE, in WoW, if you take a break from the game, no amount of research can give you a chance in a pvp fight against someone who has stayed active and farmed all the new gear and has reached the new level cap. Fortunatly for those that enjoy WoW its fairly simple to fail your way ahead to close the gap. Well possibly you need a few successes in there as well but lots of failing still works.
You can PvP in EvE smoking with your left hand, eating a pizza with the right hand, while watching House's last episode on the TV.
yes, I know, House is great. but EvE's PvP is the apotheosis of tedium.
Its about as entertaining as a chess game, if you first strip chess out of 99,999% of its complexity, and then match a fairly dumb opponent who thinks he's uber smart because he is playing chess (thats your typical EvE player,a self appointed "smart elite just because", which in the end is just as average as your typical themepark player).
It isnt like WoW requires more brains, it actually needs less. But at least you get an adrenaline fix from pvping there.
The whole fun of pvping I have found in games is the risk involved the chance that you could loose months of work in seconds makes it alot more fun. That is 1 of the reasons I used to love runescape and going into the wilderness before they changed the graphics and made it suck. For this reaon alone I would say the pvp and thinking about it the pve as well in wow sucks simply because the lack of risk involed makes it rather tedious.
Cause Zero - Personal preference of course, and you certainly aren't the only one, but the lack of an Avatar or trees and birds and rocks and squirrels doesn't bother me. (I get all of that when I play Aion)
First Cause - Leveling in WOW to 80, PVEing for ISK in EVE, seems pretty much the same to me in EVE. Even after you get to 80, I do believe WOW players have to grind out daily quests or gather or craft to make enough gold to buy mounts, repair armor, purchase respecs etc. I don't mind the PVE activities in EVE, and if you do it right, you don't spend that much time amassing wealth once you get some SP's under your belt.
Second Cause - Well there are ways to improve your opportunities to fight. Join a war deccing merc corp and you'll pretty much have targets to kill every time you log in. Same with some parts of 0.0,
I can recall running PVP ops for months on end, without any down time trying to save our home systems (or destroy someone elses). If you were flying solo though, yep, pretty tough to find a fair fight, even in low sec you'd probably get ganked rather than win. (Pirates also get quite a bit of PVP action, though that's not my style)
But keep in mind, due to the costly nature of losses in EVE, you try to only fight when you have a reasonable chance of winning. Otherwise its time to turn and run.
Third Cause - Yes, the fighting can be extremely brief, though when I'm in a 250M HAC and my armor is chisaled away, it seems like the longest 30secs to 2 minutes of my life, sort of like root canal time, moves much slower than fun time.
Looking at your summary, it seems you enjoy PVP fights for the sake of PVP, non stop killing, no real penalty for dying so there's no reason to try to avoid a fight vs having 100's of kills, and that just isn't what EVE is all about.
It doesn't make you wrong to dislike EVE or me right for enjoying it, we both just have different preferences for our PVP. Personally, I abhor WOW's battleground combat, seems boring and meaningless to me, with no sense of achievement. To others I'm sure they feel its the greatest thing ever.
Different strokes for different folks.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
Personally i like pvp in all its forms but PVP in Eve has a more exciting feel to it when you lose that 150 mill isk ship vs a respwn in 5-15 seconds.
(BBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH Raises double plunger salute to Night Elf girls! )
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
EvE is not about fair and even fights. It's not about e-honour or fun fights.
EvE is all about alliance-warfare, and the only thing that counts is to win that freakin' war.
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WoW is 90% of solo-questing until you reach LvL 80 and then you grind the instances for the epic lewts.
WoW has not a single driving point toit for engaging in PvP, as there's nothing to loose and nothing to win besides more epic lewts, that are totally meaningless with the next patch.
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You can't even remotely compare the two games. The one is a game, where it's all about players, the other is all about scripted content.
Eve all the way.
The game revolves around all aspects of pvp.
Wows pvp is tact on.
To be fair to wow though its pve is much better.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
Since day 1 actually. If you can't be competitive, thats your own fault. Basically, L2P. Balance is having a decent chance of winning in an even situation. So, if 2 players are similar levels and have similar gear, each one has generally the same chance to win, ASSUMING both players actually have a clue. If you ever thought you had NO CHANCE at winning a fight, you basically suck. Sorry to break it to you. There have of course been times when certain classes have been tougher, but over the course of 5+ years now, WOW has been a pretty balanced game. Perfect? Hell no. But its way more balanced than other class-based MMOs. L2P, or don't expect to win fights when you play 1 hour a week=)
Eve is not balanced, but its NEVER been designed to be anything close to balanced. Certain ships and weapons are designed to blow away others.
Both games offer very different styles of play and they work very well. Personally, Eve is an amazing bore and slow PvP that has harsh consequences doesn't appeal to me. But it does for others. WOW PvP just takes a lot more personal, second to second input to do well. In Eve you literally can play well with one hand without paying all that much attention due to the sheer numbers of people fighting at the same time and the slow pace of combat. But it works in those situations. Some people like it.
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
Since day 1 actually. If you can't be competitive, thats your own fault. Basically, L2P. Balance is having a decent chance of winning in an even situation. So, if 2 players are similar levels and have similar gear, each one has generally the same chance to win, ASSUMING both players actually have a clue. If you ever thought you had NO CHANCE at winning a fight, you basically suck. Sorry to break it to you. There have of course been times when certain classes have been tougher, but over the course of 5+ years now, WOW has been a pretty balanced game. Perfect? Hell no. But its way more balanced than other class-based MMOs. L2P, or don't expect to win fights when you play 1 hour a week=)
Eve is not balanced, but its NEVER been designed to be anything close to balanced. Certain ships and weapons are designed to blow away others.
Eve is just as balanced as WoW.
You say certain ships are designed to blow away other ship classes? Ever go up against a Mage as a Warrior 1v1?
Same deal dude. The class is designed to kill warriors much like a Certain ship is designed to kill another class of ship.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
While it is certainly true, when you are gatecamping or sitting at a safe spot or even if you are out scouting for targets, I am sure that pizza is left to get cold when the fighting gets a little more even that you planned for. I am not sure about the cigarette though.. I never remember lighting one when Im engaged in a tough pvp fight, when the fighting is over and I really really need one my packet is mysteriously empty.. Or I notice mid fight that Im lighting one only to see that there is a freshly lit one already parked in the ashtray, and I nearly lose my ship while I try to figure out how that happened and what cigarette to put out.
And a big HELL YES EVE is tedious most of the time, but I find most games to be mostly boring. Thank the whatevers that I can actually take my hands off the keyboard while nothing interesting is happening.
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
You'll note I didn't say it was balanced, just the best chance for balanced PvP. Especially compared to EvE
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
Since day 1 actually. If you can't be competitive, thats your own fault. Basically, L2P. Balance is having a decent chance of winning in an even situation. So, if 2 players are similar levels and have similar gear, each one has generally the same chance to win, ASSUMING both players actually have a clue. If you ever thought you had NO CHANCE at winning a fight, you basically suck. Sorry to break it to you. There have of course been times when certain classes have been tougher, but over the course of 5+ years now, WOW has been a pretty balanced game. Perfect? Hell no. But its way more balanced than other class-based MMOs. L2P, or don't expect to win fights when you play 1 hour a week=)
Eve is not balanced, but its NEVER been designed to be anything close to balanced. Certain ships and weapons are designed to blow away others.
Eve is just as balanced as WoW.
You say certain ships are designed to blow away other ship classes? Ever go up against a Mage as a Warrior 1v1?
Same deal dude. The class is designed to kill warriors much like a Certain ship is designed to kill another class of ship.
Quite often actually. When I played over the years, I had a Mage, Priest, Shaman and Warrior and always won most of my fights no matter what class I played. EVERY class has a weakness and a counter and NO I will NOT go into the specifics. If you don't know them or couldn't figure them out on your own, go look it all up in FAQs and guides.
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
Since day 1 actually. If you can't be competitive, thats your own fault. Basically, L2P. Balance is having a decent chance of winning in an even situation. So, if 2 players are similar levels and have similar gear, each one has generally the same chance to win, ASSUMING both players actually have a clue. If you ever thought you had NO CHANCE at winning a fight, you basically suck. Sorry to break it to you. There have of course been times when certain classes have been tougher, but over the course of 5+ years now, WOW has been a pretty balanced game. Perfect? Hell no. But its way more balanced than other class-based MMOs. L2P, or don't expect to win fights when you play 1 hour a week=)
Eve is not balanced, but its NEVER been designed to be anything close to balanced. Certain ships and weapons are designed to blow away others.
Eve is just as balanced as WoW.
You say certain ships are designed to blow away other ship classes? Ever go up against a Mage as a Warrior 1v1?
Same deal dude. The class is designed to kill warriors much like a Certain ship is designed to kill another class of ship.
Quite often actually. When I played over the years, I had a Mage, Priest, Shaman and Warrior and always won most of my fights no matter what class I played. EVERY class has a weakness and a counter and NO I will NOT go into the specifics. If you don't know them or couldn't figure them out on your own, go look it all up in FAQs and guides.
A mage is designed from the ground up to destroy a warrior. Much like a destroyer is designed to take down frigates.
It doesn't matter if you wanna beat your chest and say you killed everyone, design is design.
I've killed Dessys in a rifter, shit i've killed drone carrier cruisers with frigs doesn't mean thats the norm or it was designed that way.
Its all rock paper scissors.
To say a game isn't balanced due to a rock paper scissor mechanic is wrong.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I just about choked over my morning bagel reading that.
Since when did they balance the game? Espccially towards 1v1?
Since day 1 actually. If you can't be competitive, thats your own fault. Basically, L2P. Balance is having a decent chance of winning in an even situation. So, if 2 players are similar levels and have similar gear, each one has generally the same chance to win, ASSUMING both players actually have a clue. If you ever thought you had NO CHANCE at winning a fight, you basically suck. Sorry to break it to you. There have of course been times when certain classes have been tougher, but over the course of 5+ years now, WOW has been a pretty balanced game. Perfect? Hell no. But its way more balanced than other class-based MMOs. L2P, or don't expect to win fights when you play 1 hour a week=)
Eve is not balanced, but its NEVER been designed to be anything close to balanced. Certain ships and weapons are designed to blow away others.
Both games offer very different styles of play and they work very well. Personally, Eve is an amazing bore and slow PvP that has harsh consequences doesn't appeal to me. But it does for others. WOW PvP just takes a lot more personal, second to second input to do well. In Eve you literally can play well with one hand without paying all that much attention due to the sheer numbers of people fighting at the same time and the slow pace of combat. But it works in those situations. Some people like it.
You say in EvE certain ships are designed to blow away others. But EvE is not designed for 1v1 at all. The core of the game is built around corps.
WoW, classes are a rock-paper-scissors design. Some clases are meant to best others and those are meant to be beaten by others which will be beaten by the first. You can call that balanced I guess, but hardly 1v1 balance.
I also like how you mentioned L2P. As if your knowledge or experience is the norm or that the norm is beneath you. Being elitist isn't really productive or beneficial to MMOs.
I used to play WoW. I used to PvP. I played WoW pre-MC and on for a long time. I also witnessed the FotM classes rotating over time and the gross lack of 1v1 balance. It may be more balanced now but for the majority of WoWs lifespan it hasn't been 1v1 balanced. To get your 1v1 balance, you have to go to very restricted situations. Otherwise I will say that WoW is very balanced compared to other MMOs and its group PvP is rather balanced.
EVE is more balanced than WoW as you arent limited to a class.
You arent permanently trapped in a DPS/HealerR/CC/Tank role. and if one type of dps is better than another type of dps then everyone that trains for it can have the same benefit from it. Making it far easier to compare who is the better pilot.
Its far harder to balance a game with different classes as you can never be absolutly sure if the type of player that plays the "underpowered" class isnt just the worse player.. I am sure there are statistics that give some clue.. but still..
Also it can be kinda hard to make it so every class has an even chance even the slightest change can make one class go from horrible to massivly overpowered. And what is the new underdog to do in the 6 months (or however long) it takes to rebalance, they havent got a leg to stand on in the mean time.
So while in EVE there are terrible ships and modules there are also mostly good stable stuff too.. and a few that are better than the rest to varying degrees.. but once you have a about 10 mill sp Im sure there are atleast 1 of each type you can use. Chances are they arent all gonna be nerfed to uselessness at the same time.. And if that were to happen you wouldnt be far off flying something else just as well..
EvE is not designed to be fair in a 1vs1 fight actually, as EvE isn't designed for even matches to begin with.
EvE is designed for fleet-battles, where it's all about tactics. So yes, the analogy to chess is absolutely right in that regard, but you've to notice, that CCP designed it exatly this way.
Last but not least, there's a saying in EvE: "If you find yourself in a fair fight, then either you or your opponent has done something fundamentally wrong."
So if you don't like EvE, because it's lacking arena-style, fast paced and fair fights, then you've not informed yourself about the game to begin with. EvE is designed to be as close to fleet-warfare as possible, like naval warfare of WW2. It's about tactics, fleet-composition and numbers.