I agree with the article. I too am hitting 30 years of age this year. I started MMO gaming in 2002, when the old generation of MMO's reigned and the hardcore gamers were the average. It was a great time then and I miss it. However, I am not the same person now that I was when I was 22 years old. I can't consciously spend 8+ hours gaming like I did before without feeling guilty of neglect, much less not be bored out of my mind, because let's face it, the gameplay hasn't changed since the early days, so those of us that started back then have long since mastered the skills needed to blow through MMO's of old.
Anyways, you'll meet a lot of resistance on this website, because most of the population here fits into the category that believes the genre and the developers are out to get them. They think that because the first 3 games in a genre did things a certain way, they define what the genre is supposed to be, and any game that deviates doesn't belong. Imagine if we approached everything in life with such narrow mindedness.
Everyone will be much happier as gamers if they check their expectations and baggage at the door before trying a new MMO out. Each game should be judged on their own merits, and if the game isn't fun, then it isn't for them. I for example think STO is a pretty fun game. Will it keep me subscribed for a while like DAOC or SWG did? No, but that's not the way the genre works anymore. Whether a MMO lasts 1 yr + or 1 month+, they both offer more bang for the buck than any single player game on the market. As gamers, fun should be what we're after, so the most fun for our money should be our goal. It seems that gamers have lost sight of that goal, and have replaced it with finding a "true MMO" without ever asking if the game they passed up was fun regardless of missing features that the founders of the genre offered.
I almost spit mountain dew across my screen when I read the part about the NGE being a limited sucess. ROFL
OK here it is in a nutshell. Back in the day we got real content, lots of stuff to do. It took months to level, and even more months to gear your toon out. Then we had lots of end game stuff that was fun to do.
The NGE was the start of the end. At that point all the game companies were like "Hey folks will buy crud lets give it to them cheaper" And guess what they do. So as long as folks settle for the cheep way out so the companies will give it to them.
Take a look at LOTRO, good case study here. We had a game that was diverse. This game was great, until somebody in marketing thought hey we need to come up with all this raid instances and rad armor and stuff. We got Moria, it was a dismall abiss. Now we got SOM a ver small xpac. After that really small book update with even more instances. Once again Turbine taking the cheap way out, going down the track of re-usable instances. Oh and I will say this folks will call me crazy, as it was such a big hit for the ADHD crowd there going to continue this route so there goes a lot of open world content.
I have to note that yes the gaming comunity has changed. A lot of us are getting older. Im 45 now. A lot of the younger crowd clammers for the quick got to have it fix, and the game companies give it to them. Level to max level in under a month, then they get board. The only problem is the make it so easy it makes the game booring.
I don't blame the devs, the real villian is the bean counter, with his hand up the devs rear end so far they lack any real creativity.
I was talking with my 2nd in command the other night about the fact I had noticed he had not bough the som xpac nor had he logged in since october. He said "I am really discontent, and I don't seam to find any mmo experiance out there to be deap and meaningfull gameplay, gone are the days of relaxing after I get home, now its all rush rush rush." he then said he was playing dragon something as it was more fun than logging in.
I just can't help but disagree with most of this. [...]
If you ask me, the problem IS that games are no longer made by gamers. I always refer back to Counter-Strike. The game started out as a simple mod for Half-Life, made for free, by a team of players of the game. They made whatthey wanted and what was fun for them. Of course it took off, and became one of the biggest franchises in shooter history, all because the people making the game knew how to make a fun game. Anymore, it's entirely too much market research, and a bunch of execs trying to pin down exactly what they think the market wants. Couple that with cheaply made, rushed out the door, under-developed, over-hyped garbage games that live on life support (read: initial box sales) for years and people start to realize how hard it is to actually fail in this industry, much like movies these days. Ever hear of movies that lose money in the cinemas anymore? I don't, and I'd bet the same can be said about most titles these days released for any gaming platform. Given how little there is in the way of consequences for shitty games, it's no wonder they continue to pump out their crap, and then capitalize on their latest crappy release with a "new and improved!" game to follow, that the dissatisfied consumers merrily trudge onto. Looking at all I just wrote, I think it's time to hit post and end the rant :O Whoooooops! TL;DR: It's absurd what the entire gaming market has become.
[...]
Highlighted selections for emphasis. Comment below:
RTS terms? DOTA- which became, of course, LoL. There are parallels in every aspect of industry. The 'innovation' is often nothing more than a 'return to roots' that is void of marketing practices and full of actual content.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
I see people make this accusation a lot when they're dissatisfied with a game. Well you know what? WHY DON"T YOU GO SHOW US HOW FUCKING EASY IT AND MAKE YOUR OWN GOD DAMN GAME.
Stop calling developers lazy if you've never written a line of code (or designed a map, or skinned a model) for an MMO (or any other game) in your life. A lot of people have these really grand ideas of what the ideal game should be but they have no idea how much effort it would take to actually build that game. Some of the ideas I've heard are completely impractical or unrealistic.
I disagree.
The things that many older/sandbox gamers ask for are not impractical or unrealistic. They have, in fact, been done before. Current developers choose to ignore many of the features that made UO, AC, and SWG such beloved games and instead churn out repetitive linear game after repetitive linear game.
If deep non-combat sandbox gameplay is so difficult, how did certain development teams manage to pull it off over a decade ago?
There are probably some talented developers working in mmo's today, but you'd never know it because just about every game is the same carrot-chasing exercise, over and over again.
So, call it lazy, call it short-sighted, blame the publishers instead of the coders, whatever. The reality is that mmo design has regressed over the last few years.
An excellent, honest, no-nonsense article that clearly sees the history of MMORPGs and admits the truth about where they are going and the real reasons for it. No wonder there are many posts disagreeing with the article. Denial won't change the truth of the article anymore than complaining will induce large developers with substantial budgets to go back to old-school mechanics. It is, however, amusing to see people trying to re-write history in their attempts to disprove the article's points, like the protests over this part: Did they develop pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies out of some kind of dedication to the art while the NGE was brought in to make money? No. Pre-NGE was designed to make money. It didn't so they tried the NGE (with limited success). Stars Wars Galaxies was a financial failure. It sold over a million boxes but never kept more than 1/3 of those customers (300k estimated at BEST). Here are reminders for all those Abe Simpson types whose memories seem to be failing. www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/star-wars-galaxies-sales-top-a-million-units www.lucasarts.net/company/release/news20050819.html Then you have a blog by a SWG developer who worked on the game for 5 years STATING the game was bleeding subscribers before NGE ever came out. rubenfield.com/ The article rightly points out that people always view the good old days of the past as being better even when they weren't. That is not an excuse to try to change the past. That's how the mistakes of the history get repeated.
i disagree wholeheartly.
THIS is the reason why swg didn't retain the million subs, and the reason it was bleeding subs when they revamped the game.
however claiming that pre-cu was a financial failure i find very hard to believe of any mmo with 300k subs.
there is and was no evidence to suggest that it was a failure due to the nature of the game as you seem to suggest.
Nice article that rings true, in most aspects, however not ALL corps have as their primary concern to make a profit. The MMORPG industry has become a very profitable industry and as such has attracted alot of companies with main, and maybe only, priority to make a killer profit.
However I am convinced that out there, there are still those visionaries who wants to primarily create a virtual world, to break new ground and not to, primarily, making a profit.
So I, as an old time MMORPG player, am waiting for the next Eve, the next Asherons Call and the next UO which sees beyond making "just a game" but rather will try to make a world. That is the new frontier, not space, but rather the virtual universe where only the imagination sets the limits. Unfourtunately the imagination of the majority of devs is limited to how they can make alot of money.
"I submit though that businesses looking to turn a profit is nothing new to the world of games."
Ok yes, glib and true but not the point. Yes, all business exist to make a profit. No one disputes it or begrudges a company for doing it. What the complaints are about is that it seems like publishers made money by making a great game. It was part of their project plan that the money to be made was dependent on the game being great.
That is no longer the case. Now publishers just want to make money. It doesn't matter if the game is good. Coming up with a good marketing plan for a crappy MMO is probably a hell of a lot easier than designing a great MMO and probably generates more short term returns on the investors' money, which is all they care about.
When someone says something along the lines of "...they just want to make money" its not the 'make money' part that is the focus. The key word is 'just' as in they have no real interest in their customers or product.
"I submit though that businesses looking to turn a profit is nothing new to the world of games." Ok yes, glib and true but not the point. Yes, all business exist to make a profit. No one disputes it or begrudges a company for doing it. What the complaints are about is that it seems like publishers made money by making a great game. It was part of their project plan that the money to be made was dependent on the game being great. That is no longer the case. Now publishers just want to make money. It doesn't matter if the game is good. Coming up with a good marketing plan for a crappy MMO is probably a hell of a lot easier than designing a great MMO and probably generates more short term returns on the investors' money, which is all they care about. When someone says something along the lines of "...they just want to make money" its not the 'make money' part that is the focus. The key word is 'just' as in they have no real interest in their customers or product.
QFT! All corps want to make a profit, otherwise they go bankrupt, the issue is that most current MMO corps are much more interested in making a killing profit and not at all interested in creating an innovative and interesting game.
"You're just not in the demographic the world revolves around anymore." This, I think, pretty much hits the nail on the head for the article. The "original" batch of gamers have hit the 30+ age range and instead of paying for games they like nowadays, they are paying for games their kids like. Unfortunately, our kids don't care for the style of games we played, but I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily. Innovation and new ideas spring up from what they desire. Instead of pining for what was we should encourage and teach the younger, newer gamer generations to what may be about the joys of "oldstyle" gaming. Eventually they will seek it out and gaming companies will respond and bring some of those innovations with it. However, if we consistantly complain, whine and moan about gaming today and shut ourself out to any and everything new, developers and gamers alike will tune us out and those "good old days' will be gone for good.
I hate to say it, but the original batch of gamers are actually now in the 40+ range. It's true. If you remember being absolutely captivated by the kaleidoscope of visual stimuli that was 8-bit graphics (when compared to the monochrome fare we were accustomed to), chances are you're now closer to the end of the road than the beginning of it. And I think it's the fact that we, the old (decrepit) guard, remember that appreciation of such simple pleasures, that makes us so much less forgiving of those games that don't meet our expectations.
Arguably, we are a jaded lot, which makes us hard to please. But mostly, the problem stems from the fact that what we demand is harder to provide than what the majority of today's gamers demand. Namely, something that will again captivate us. We've seen the evolution of games from the point of a single cursor being representative of your character, to some of the most visually stunning character creators imaginable. We've watched computer games throughout the majority of their evolution, and quite simply, little surprises us now. It's hard to be satisfied when everything you see seems to be simply an iteration of what you've already experienced countless times before.
And really, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Being jaded comes with the territory. We'll complain, but we'll still pony up our share of the development fees through box sales and subscriptions. I've had a hoot over the last 30+ years of playing games when the industry was tripping over itself to cater to *my* every whim. Let it now cater to the next generation. Eventually they'll be sitting right here on the same stump, wistfully remembering the good old days of WoW and LotRO and Guild Wars. They sure don't make games like that anymore ....
Wow, great reply. Color coded per section: People still buy what they like to play, its just the games today are not what most of us like. As its been said several times already, the older gamers are not the market anymore. There are more titles, genres and selections of games out there now then there ever was when we were gaming. Stores completely devoting to gaming were unheard of and most of it was confined to a rack or two in the electronics section of a general store. Also, what you define as "crap" is what Little Johnny is acutally looking for. Where we any different? Did we "know better? Hardly. Video gaming was in it's infancy and we had no other option than to take what was handed to us. We didn't have the luxury of 3-5 different consoles, PC's, MMO's, etc. I guess where my attitude on this comes from is the fact that there was less choice, and less selection, so finding what you wanted was easier. More to the point, being such a niche thing in general (PC gaming as a whole), the titles that were produced were generally of a high quality at the time, like that game or not. The market these days is bloated beyond belief, so finding the diamond in the rough is that much harder. Is it a bad thing? I say yes, but only because of the general quality of what's produced. Also, I dunno, but I remember Sega, Nintendo, and Atari in the early days of console wars, but yeah prior to that it was pretty damn limited with either Atari or Commodore 64... but that's really pushing back.
Maybe its me, but I don't remember Fallout 3 funneling us down anywhere. Sure you could play the storyline, then again you had the choice not to, it is completely up to your playstyle. How many older games gave us the freedom to do whatever the heck we wanted compared to games today? You did bring up an interesting point though and one I was trying to reinforce earlier, kids today don't know what Fallout 1 or 2 was like. Maybe they've never heard of Elder Scrolls: Morrowind or others but thats where we should step in show them what it was like. Sites like GOG.com are great tools to get them involved in older styles of games and gameplay and let them see and experience what they may be missing.Could it spark an interest in some older styles of game play and a desire for more similar to it with today's technology? I think it could. I'll be honest - I've barely played Fallout 3. I was more or less just using it as an example, and basing part of what I wrote on reviews and videos I've seen. That said, there were loads of non-essential side quests and things of an indirect nature to occupy your time with in the originals (random encounters in the desert; side quests that actually impacted the ending to the game). I could probably say the same for a lot of the earlier games, if I really sat and thought about it. It just seems to me that the more I see of today's market, the less freedom there is within games. I have to disagree with part of your last paragraph. I would argue that we have more gamers developing games today than we ever had before. These are the guys and gals that grew up on gaming and were inspired by the original games designers of the past and want to put their unique spin on the genre. There are a ton of fun and unqiue games ot there today. Yes there is crap but that has been around since video gaming started. You're probably right in that more gamers likely work in the industry today than before. In fact, you kinda have to be right there since gaming was in its absolute infancy such a short time ago. How many of us used to play these games and consider the idea of making them as a career? I definitely did. That said, I realized that I don't have the creativity required for such a thing, and if I joined that field it'd be little more than a job, in which I did what I was told, as I feel a lot of those very gamers likely have to do these days as they work on the games we now play. I do agree that there appears to be too much research to try and find that "end all be all game " and the tweaking of games after the fact. For some reason I still don't understand, gamers and gaming developers have this utopian idea that if this one game launched with all of the features THEY liked and thinks everyone else likes then everyone would play it alone and we would all be a happier community. Thats just nuts. Look out there today in anything we have or do. How much variety do we see in the food we like, the clothes we wear, the music we listen to or the movies we see. If there is all of that out there, why dosome gamers insist that we have to be universally set in one style of gaming. Look on this site, how many new posts do we see about the right wrong way a game is, PVP vs PVE, level vs skills, no death vs corpse run or the countless "if only they would do <X> it would save gaming"? Why can't we accept that everyone has different tastes, styles and desires in gaming? Whats crap to me might be great to you and vice versa. Different strokes for different folks. And here's where I totally agree. There needs to be options. You're absolutely right in that not everyone will like the same thing. In comes the behemoth, WoW, to ride in and try and scoop everyone up under one flag. I'd say they've done a damn good job of pulling in the vast majority of the market..... but then to consider it, they really just pulled in the people who otherwise would never have joined it in the first place. They really nailed the lowest common denominator on all fronts, and as another topic on this forum is currently discussing, they've probably peaked. Hell, for all the people that buy into it, more power to them. However, what its done is create a formula that any practical businessman wants a part of, in that the return on the investment for WoW is much like James Cameron making Avatar for $300m, and raking in over $2.2b so far. You'd be nuts not to want a piece of that, and unfortunately it's stifled creativity in the games that have followed to an absurd degree. If every movie to follow Avatar was nearly identical in story and style, there'd be no sense in going to the movies. That's unfortunately where it seems it's gone with gaming lately. Follow/copy this or that successful formula, hope for profit, move on. As much as I would love our attitudes to change, I think it won't and many 30 something gamers will become so frustrated that they drift away from gaming all together, taking all of that gaming knowledge, passion and desire with them. It's utterly depressing to think that need be the case. It's really a shame, actually. Unfortunately, when games that are 5, 6.. even 10+ years old set a standard that still today cannot be matched (and still satiate the thirst for some good gaming), it's hard to imagine what went wrong. I, for one, don't believe it to be the fault of the gamers themselves, so much as those in charge of the games being made. I think that's the most frustrating part about it. The only logical conclusion I can really come to is that in older days, those of us capable of understanding how to actually make the damn things work, or had an interest in PCs to begin with were the ones driving the market. This day in age, with everyone owning a PC, it's far more common that people branch out and use them for something other than Facebook, so they end up picking up what's well known (WoW), and go from there. I can only assume that what we get anymore is the product of a mass watering down of things on the whole, and the industry itself must be having some severe growing pains to be trying to cater to so many. To really consider it, maybe there does need to be more out there to choose from. But then, that'd require that many more companies making that many more games, which would really require a much higher price tag to make possible. I mean, that games still cost around $50 on average, when 15 years ago they'd run about the same for a Nintendo game, it's pretty clear that only your Wal-Marts (read: Blizzard) are going to really thrive.
Give it ten years and those 20 somethings will be right here writing similar articles about how their gaming has "changed" from "when they played" and they don't understand or like it.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by Shiymmas I just can't help but disagree with most of this.
People buy and play what's available. Short of being an actual part of the business, none of us have control other than to buy and play what we like, but that only goes so far when so little is available that fits that category. For little Johnny, however, there's a plethora of games out there, all of which are "amazing" when you've never had better, so Johnny will continue to buy the crap that's given without knowing better. At the end of the day, the companies still profit, and whether or not we continue to pay, they'll still prosper.
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
But then again, maybe they do sort of know that something isn't quite right because look at how few games have done really well since WoW. All these games have come out and how many have made a big splash? How many have done just "ok" and how many have dwindled to just barely surviving?
I don't think people want a new WoW either. I think they are ready for something different but untill something different comes along which is fun and polished they'll just stay with the comfortable old shoe. The door is wide open for someone to make a killing but the idiot development houses are too scared to step up and do it. Instead they try to play it safe by being cheap and sticking to the formula. It looks to me like that hasn't been working out so well for them.
"I submit though that businesses looking to turn a profit is nothing new to the world of games." Ok yes, glib and true but not the point. Yes, all business exist to make a profit. No one disputes it or begrudges a company for doing it. What the complaints are about is that it seems like publishers made money by making a great game. It was part of their project plan that the money to be made was dependent on the game being great. That is no longer the case. Now publishers just want to make money. It doesn't matter if the game is good. Coming up with a good marketing plan for a crappy MMO is probably a hell of a lot easier than designing a great MMO and probably generates more short term returns on the investors' money, which is all they care about. When someone says something along the lines of "...they just want to make money" its not the 'make money' part that is the focus. The key word is 'just' as in they have no real interest in their customers or product.
QFT! All corps want to make a profit, otherwise they go bankrupt, the issue is that most current MMO corps are much more interested in making a killing profit and not at all interested in creating an innovative and interesting game.
here's an analogy for those who fail to understand the "wants to make money" concept:
you open a new restaurant and you are so passionate about food that you make sure your food is quality, well preserved and handled; your menu is clear to read and understand in terms of what you offer and the pricing involved. you put a great deal amount of effort to train your staff in the best serving ways you can afford.
you are confident that people will appreciate the service, enjoy the food and won't complain about the bill. these people will tell their friends and your restaurant will be full of happy customers in the future.
OR
you open a new restaurant. you put a great deal of effort in marketing campaings and decorate the outside to get people to walk in.
when your customers are inside you offer them a nicely presented menu with fancy wording and description; so they order their meal and when it arrives is not exactly what they thought it would be - or what was described on the menu. then they get the bill with some "add-ons" such as extra prices for the condiments or the live music which was never explained but since you are now in the restaurant and ordered you'll have to pay for... on top of that the food was not stored at the correct temperature and you feel sick the next day.
I hate to say it, but the original batch of gamers are actually now in the 40+ range. It's true. If you remember being absolutely captivated by the kaleidoscope of visual stimuli that was 8-bit graphics (when compared to the monochrome fare we were accustomed to), chances are you're now closer to the end of the road than the beginning of it. And I think it's the fact that we, the old (decrepit) guard, remember that appreciation of such simple pleasures, that makes us so much less forgiving of those games that don't meet our expectations.
Arguably, we are a jaded lot, which makes us hard to please. But mostly, the problem stems from the fact that what we demand is harder to provide than what the majority of today's gamers demand. Namely, something that will again captivate us. We've seen the evolution of games from the point of a single cursor being representative of your character, to some of the most visually stunning character creators imaginable. We've watched computer games throughout the majority of their evolution, and quite simply, little surprises us now. It's hard to be satisfied when everything you see seems to be simply an iteration of what you've already experienced countless times before. And really, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Being jaded comes with the territory. We'll complain, but we'll still pony up our share of the development fees through box sales and subscriptions. I've had a hoot over the last 30+ years of playing games when the industry was tripping over itself to cater to *my* every whim. Let it now cater to the next generation. Eventually they'll be sitting right here on the same stump, wistfully remembering the good old days of WoW and LotRO and Guild Wars. They sure don't make games like that anymore ....
Its after midnight here and I was getting ready to log but I just wanted to jump in and say . Well said.
Same goes to Shiymma, great response back and I'm glad we all could keep this thread civil and very constructive. A true miracle on this site at times.
Hopefully this conversation will continue to tomorrow and I can pick up from here after I get off of work.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Originally posted by Shiymmas I just can't help but disagree with most of this.
People buy and play what's available. Short of being an actual part of the business, none of us have control other than to buy and play what we like, but that only goes so far when so little is available that fits that category. For little Johnny, however, there's a plethora of games out there, all of which are "amazing" when you've never had better, so Johnny will continue to buy the crap that's given without knowing better. At the end of the day, the companies still profit, and whether or not we continue to pay, they'll still prosper.
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
But then again, maybe they do sort of know that something isn't quite right because look at how few games have done really well since WoW. All these games have come out and how many have made a big splash? How many have done just "ok" and how many have dwindled to just barely surviving?
I don't think people want a new WoW either. I think they are ready for something different but untill something different comes along which is fun and polished they'll just stay with the comfortable old shoe. The door is wide open for someone to make a killing but the idiot development houses are too scared to step up and do it. Instead they try to play it safe by being cheap and sticking to the formula. It looks to me like that hasn't been working out so well for them.
This. Screw the talk about demographics, I'm 23 years old and precisely where all the "market research" wants me for current game offerings, and I find them all stale and lackluster. Sure, I can recognize the inherent fun in certain games, but I started out with EQ1 a decade ago. My first understanding of an MMORPG was a game that had fun in all aspects, that could be enjoyed regardless of what part of the game you were presently engaged in, and that had longevity to keep me entertained consistently for upwards of a year or more. That is the standard I judge my MMOs by.
As far as I'm concerned, the argument of sandbox or themepark or precisely what features a game does or does not include are irrelevant. I can have fun with all sorts of systems and concepts, the question is for how long and whether or not its worth being considered "massive". When I sign on for a Massively Multiplayer game, I expect to be engaged in something huge that combines elements of economy, community, and global interaction. The genre to me fails when those things are cheapened or forgotten, in which event I just have to ask myself, why bother shelling out $15 a month?
relax. Your "it" will change again in the near future. You are going to look for a gaming experience that fits in with your family lifestyle: That lets you play for a half hour or an hour between household chores, kids, work and wife (or husband, significant other, lebens-abschnitts-partner, child-rearing commune - happy to be inclusive, Sir ) and rewards you for it. That doesn't charge you a monthly bill, so you don't have to explain that recurring charge to your spouse (*). (Frugal is, after all, the new "hip" again). That allows you to bow out for a bit to look after the slow-cooker before coming back to the game.
If there's a market brewing that fits the "up-and-coming" generation as well as both the "family" and "geezer" generations, that's excellent news in my book. Sure, you "in-betweens" are in the lurch for a little bit. No fear - start thinking in 5 and 10 year increments instead of quarterly updates, and you'll fit in this new demographic before you can say "honey where'd you put the soccer bag".
And no, I wouldn't give my good knee to be 30 again. What do you know at 30, anyway. My knee surgeon did a great job.
"Yorick"
(*) Add same inclusive disclaimers if you feel like it
People buy and play what's available. Short of being an actual part of the business, none of us have control other than to buy and play what we like, but that only goes so far when so little is available that fits that category.
i believe that in an open market economy, demand will control the supply.
so unless you are living in venezuela or any other country which decides to limit what sort of games you can purchase; the producers will make what they think its in high demand.
Originally posted by Shiymmas I just can't help but disagree with most of this.
People buy and play what's available. Short of being an actual part of the business, none of us have control other than to buy and play what we like, but that only goes so far when so little is available that fits that category. For little Johnny, however, there's a plethora of games out there, all of which are "amazing" when you've never had better, so Johnny will continue to buy the crap that's given without knowing better. At the end of the day, the companies still profit, and whether or not we continue to pay, they'll still prosper.
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
But then again, maybe they do sort of know that something isn't quite right because look at how few games have done really well since WoW. All these games have come out and how many have made a big splash? How many have done just "ok" and how many have dwindled to just barely surviving?
I don't think people want a new WoW either. I think they are ready for something different but untill something different comes along which is fun and polished they'll just stay with the comfortable old shoe. The door is wide open for someone to make a killing but the idiot development houses are too scared to step up and do it. Instead they try to play it safe by being cheap and sticking to the formula. It looks to me like that hasn't been working out so well for them.
i find your statement surprising;. when some would claim that human behaviour has had the most profound change in history over the past 20 short years, technology being the prime contributor to the change.
"fun is fun"... hmm what is fun? i enjoy fishing - do you?
i won't dispute this and i think that's the essence of the article.
I actually sat down recently with friends and discussed things that "kids today" would never know, or have never known. That, I fear, is the first sign that you're getting older. When you start to really notice (and worse start talking about) how different the world is today from "when I grew up,"
Like when twenty-five cents would buy a sixteen ounce bottle of soda, a candy bar and a bag of chips, cigarettes were forty cents a pack, a loaf of bread was a quarter, a box of cereal thirty-nine cents, etc..
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
Make it so the even the worse player can get to max level and then make it run on very low spec machies so that everyone can play no matter what and there is the state of todays MMOS, sad sad sad, oh and RIP SWG!
Completely agree. But now you have two homeless groups...those who were brought into this world by WoW and those that existed before WoW and have this "nostalgia" complex. I am the latter.
I do think the era of our "wants" in MMO gaming are over. Regardless of what neat or inventive new company brings to the table, WoW has set a bunchmark of globalized themes that will be replicated in one manner or another. For me that means just about every game will "almost" get it right. Of course the outlook for the other people is much better. I think the 2nd group..or those that came upon MMO's due to WoW and are now looking for something...I think they will find it sooner or later. But the rest of us...the days of waiting 10 min for a port or on a 15 min boat ride are over. It's a Wal-Mart world...and we're just remember how nice those mom and pop stores used to be.
Comments
I agree with the article. I too am hitting 30 years of age this year. I started MMO gaming in 2002, when the old generation of MMO's reigned and the hardcore gamers were the average. It was a great time then and I miss it. However, I am not the same person now that I was when I was 22 years old. I can't consciously spend 8+ hours gaming like I did before without feeling guilty of neglect, much less not be bored out of my mind, because let's face it, the gameplay hasn't changed since the early days, so those of us that started back then have long since mastered the skills needed to blow through MMO's of old.
Anyways, you'll meet a lot of resistance on this website, because most of the population here fits into the category that believes the genre and the developers are out to get them. They think that because the first 3 games in a genre did things a certain way, they define what the genre is supposed to be, and any game that deviates doesn't belong. Imagine if we approached everything in life with such narrow mindedness.
Everyone will be much happier as gamers if they check their expectations and baggage at the door before trying a new MMO out. Each game should be judged on their own merits, and if the game isn't fun, then it isn't for them. I for example think STO is a pretty fun game. Will it keep me subscribed for a while like DAOC or SWG did? No, but that's not the way the genre works anymore. Whether a MMO lasts 1 yr + or 1 month+, they both offer more bang for the buck than any single player game on the market. As gamers, fun should be what we're after, so the most fun for our money should be our goal. It seems that gamers have lost sight of that goal, and have replaced it with finding a "true MMO" without ever asking if the game they passed up was fun regardless of missing features that the founders of the genre offered.
I almost spit mountain dew across my screen when I read the part about the NGE being a limited sucess. ROFL
OK here it is in a nutshell. Back in the day we got real content, lots of stuff to do. It took months to level, and even more months to gear your toon out. Then we had lots of end game stuff that was fun to do.
The NGE was the start of the end. At that point all the game companies were like "Hey folks will buy crud lets give it to them cheaper" And guess what they do. So as long as folks settle for the cheep way out so the companies will give it to them.
Take a look at LOTRO, good case study here. We had a game that was diverse. This game was great, until somebody in marketing thought hey we need to come up with all this raid instances and rad armor and stuff. We got Moria, it was a dismall abiss. Now we got SOM a ver small xpac. After that really small book update with even more instances. Once again Turbine taking the cheap way out, going down the track of re-usable instances. Oh and I will say this folks will call me crazy, as it was such a big hit for the ADHD crowd there going to continue this route so there goes a lot of open world content.
I have to note that yes the gaming comunity has changed. A lot of us are getting older. Im 45 now. A lot of the younger crowd clammers for the quick got to have it fix, and the game companies give it to them. Level to max level in under a month, then they get board. The only problem is the make it so easy it makes the game booring.
I don't blame the devs, the real villian is the bean counter, with his hand up the devs rear end so far they lack any real creativity.
I was talking with my 2nd in command the other night about the fact I had noticed he had not bough the som xpac nor had he logged in since october. He said "I am really discontent, and I don't seam to find any mmo experiance out there to be deap and meaningfull gameplay, gone are the days of relaxing after I get home, now its all rush rush rush." he then said he was playing dragon something as it was more fun than logging in.
Highlighted selections for emphasis. Comment below:
RTS terms? DOTA- which became, of course, LoL. There are parallels in every aspect of industry. The 'innovation' is often nothing more than a 'return to roots' that is void of marketing practices and full of actual content.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
I see people make this accusation a lot when they're dissatisfied with a game. Well you know what? WHY DON"T YOU GO SHOW US HOW FUCKING EASY IT AND MAKE YOUR OWN GOD DAMN GAME.
Stop calling developers lazy if you've never written a line of code (or designed a map, or skinned a model) for an MMO (or any other game) in your life. A lot of people have these really grand ideas of what the ideal game should be but they have no idea how much effort it would take to actually build that game. Some of the ideas I've heard are completely impractical or unrealistic.
I disagree.
The things that many older/sandbox gamers ask for are not impractical or unrealistic. They have, in fact, been done before. Current developers choose to ignore many of the features that made UO, AC, and SWG such beloved games and instead churn out repetitive linear game after repetitive linear game.
If deep non-combat sandbox gameplay is so difficult, how did certain development teams manage to pull it off over a decade ago?
There are probably some talented developers working in mmo's today, but you'd never know it because just about every game is the same carrot-chasing exercise, over and over again.
So, call it lazy, call it short-sighted, blame the publishers instead of the coders, whatever. The reality is that mmo design has regressed over the last few years.
...
Bring back Corpse run!
Bring back SWG type skill leveling!
Bring back stun hits with your character spinning out of Control!
Bring back "you are hungry" "you are thirsty"
Bring Back TRAINS!
Bring back zone wide aggro until zone to reset!
i disagree wholeheartly.
THIS is the reason why swg didn't retain the million subs, and the reason it was bleeding subs when they revamped the game.
however claiming that pre-cu was a financial failure i find very hard to believe of any mmo with 300k subs.
there is and was no evidence to suggest that it was a failure due to the nature of the game as you seem to suggest.
Nice article that rings true, in most aspects, however not ALL corps have as their primary concern to make a profit. The MMORPG industry has become a very profitable industry and as such has attracted alot of companies with main, and maybe only, priority to make a killer profit.
However I am convinced that out there, there are still those visionaries who wants to primarily create a virtual world, to break new ground and not to, primarily, making a profit.
So I, as an old time MMORPG player, am waiting for the next Eve, the next Asherons Call and the next UO which sees beyond making "just a game" but rather will try to make a world. That is the new frontier, not space, but rather the virtual universe where only the imagination sets the limits. Unfourtunately the imagination of the majority of devs is limited to how they can make alot of money.
My gaming blog
"I submit though that businesses looking to turn a profit is nothing new to the world of games."
Ok yes, glib and true but not the point. Yes, all business exist to make a profit. No one disputes it or begrudges a company for doing it. What the complaints are about is that it seems like publishers made money by making a great game. It was part of their project plan that the money to be made was dependent on the game being great.
That is no longer the case. Now publishers just want to make money. It doesn't matter if the game is good. Coming up with a good marketing plan for a crappy MMO is probably a hell of a lot easier than designing a great MMO and probably generates more short term returns on the investors' money, which is all they care about.
When someone says something along the lines of "...they just want to make money" its not the 'make money' part that is the focus. The key word is 'just' as in they have no real interest in their customers or product.
QFT! All corps want to make a profit, otherwise they go bankrupt, the issue is that most current MMO corps are much more interested in making a killing profit and not at all interested in creating an innovative and interesting game.
My gaming blog
I hate to say it, but the original batch of gamers are actually now in the 40+ range. It's true. If you remember being absolutely captivated by the kaleidoscope of visual stimuli that was 8-bit graphics (when compared to the monochrome fare we were accustomed to), chances are you're now closer to the end of the road than the beginning of it. And I think it's the fact that we, the old (decrepit) guard, remember that appreciation of such simple pleasures, that makes us so much less forgiving of those games that don't meet our expectations.
Arguably, we are a jaded lot, which makes us hard to please. But mostly, the problem stems from the fact that what we demand is harder to provide than what the majority of today's gamers demand. Namely, something that will again captivate us. We've seen the evolution of games from the point of a single cursor being representative of your character, to some of the most visually stunning character creators imaginable. We've watched computer games throughout the majority of their evolution, and quite simply, little surprises us now. It's hard to be satisfied when everything you see seems to be simply an iteration of what you've already experienced countless times before.
And really, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Being jaded comes with the territory. We'll complain, but we'll still pony up our share of the development fees through box sales and subscriptions. I've had a hoot over the last 30+ years of playing games when the industry was tripping over itself to cater to *my* every whim. Let it now cater to the next generation. Eventually they'll be sitting right here on the same stump, wistfully remembering the good old days of WoW and LotRO and Guild Wars. They sure don't make games like that anymore ....
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
But then again, maybe they do sort of know that something isn't quite right because look at how few games have done really well since WoW. All these games have come out and how many have made a big splash? How many have done just "ok" and how many have dwindled to just barely surviving?
I don't think people want a new WoW either. I think they are ready for something different but untill something different comes along which is fun and polished they'll just stay with the comfortable old shoe. The door is wide open for someone to make a killing but the idiot development houses are too scared to step up and do it. Instead they try to play it safe by being cheap and sticking to the formula. It looks to me like that hasn't been working out so well for them.
QFT! All corps want to make a profit, otherwise they go bankrupt, the issue is that most current MMO corps are much more interested in making a killing profit and not at all interested in creating an innovative and interesting game.
here's an analogy for those who fail to understand the "wants to make money" concept:
you open a new restaurant and you are so passionate about food that you make sure your food is quality, well preserved and handled; your menu is clear to read and understand in terms of what you offer and the pricing involved. you put a great deal amount of effort to train your staff in the best serving ways you can afford.
you are confident that people will appreciate the service, enjoy the food and won't complain about the bill. these people will tell their friends and your restaurant will be full of happy customers in the future.
OR
you open a new restaurant. you put a great deal of effort in marketing campaings and decorate the outside to get people to walk in.
when your customers are inside you offer them a nicely presented menu with fancy wording and description; so they order their meal and when it arrives is not exactly what they thought it would be - or what was described on the menu. then they get the bill with some "add-ons" such as extra prices for the condiments or the live music which was never explained but since you are now in the restaurant and ordered you'll have to pay for... on top of that the food was not stored at the correct temperature and you feel sick the next day.
It is true that the original enthusiasts are now 40+..............................count me in the 50+ group.
Anyone remember gaming on the Genie Network where you biggest expense was the online fees?
How about the Sierra Network....................hmmm what was the name of that game..Yeserbius!
There is a lot of folks looking for something deep and modern that they can sink into for 4 or 5 years.
But for some odd reason seems that publishers are churning out games that will keep you interested in the 3 to 6 month range?
Wow was a lot of fun for a long time.................dang I am ready for something new
Its after midnight here and I was getting ready to log but I just wanted to jump in and say
. Well said.
Same goes to Shiymma, great response back and I'm glad we all could keep this thread civil and very constructive. A true miracle on this site at times.
Hopefully this conversation will continue to tomorrow and I can pick up from here after I get off of work.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
But then again, maybe they do sort of know that something isn't quite right because look at how few games have done really well since WoW. All these games have come out and how many have made a big splash? How many have done just "ok" and how many have dwindled to just barely surviving?
I don't think people want a new WoW either. I think they are ready for something different but untill something different comes along which is fun and polished they'll just stay with the comfortable old shoe. The door is wide open for someone to make a killing but the idiot development houses are too scared to step up and do it. Instead they try to play it safe by being cheap and sticking to the formula. It looks to me like that hasn't been working out so well for them.
This. Screw the talk about demographics, I'm 23 years old and precisely where all the "market research" wants me for current game offerings, and I find them all stale and lackluster. Sure, I can recognize the inherent fun in certain games, but I started out with EQ1 a decade ago. My first understanding of an MMORPG was a game that had fun in all aspects, that could be enjoyed regardless of what part of the game you were presently engaged in, and that had longevity to keep me entertained consistently for upwards of a year or more. That is the standard I judge my MMOs by.
As far as I'm concerned, the argument of sandbox or themepark or precisely what features a game does or does not include are irrelevant. I can have fun with all sorts of systems and concepts, the question is for how long and whether or not its worth being considered "massive". When I sign on for a Massively Multiplayer game, I expect to be engaged in something huge that combines elements of economy, community, and global interaction. The genre to me fails when those things are cheapened or forgotten, in which event I just have to ask myself, why bother shelling out $15 a month?
Check out my blog, Adventures in Atys!
Dear Jon,
relax. Your "it" will change again in the near future. You are going to look for a gaming experience that fits in with your family lifestyle: That lets you play for a half hour or an hour between household chores, kids, work and wife (or husband, significant other, lebens-abschnitts-partner, child-rearing commune - happy to be inclusive, Sir
) and rewards you for it. That doesn't charge you a monthly bill, so you don't have to explain that recurring charge to your spouse (*). (Frugal is, after all, the new "hip" again). That allows you to bow out for a bit to look after the slow-cooker before coming back to the game.
If there's a market brewing that fits the "up-and-coming" generation as well as both the "family" and "geezer" generations, that's excellent news in my book. Sure, you "in-betweens" are in the lurch for a little bit. No fear - start thinking in 5 and 10 year increments instead of quarterly updates, and you'll fit in this new demographic before you can say "honey where'd you put the soccer bag".
And no, I wouldn't give my good knee to be 30 again. What do you know at 30, anyway. My knee surgeon did a great job.
"Yorick"
(*) Add same inclusive disclaimers if you feel like it
i believe that in an open market economy, demand will control the supply.
so unless you are living in venezuela or any other country which decides to limit what sort of games you can purchase; the producers will make what they think its in high demand.
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
But then again, maybe they do sort of know that something isn't quite right because look at how few games have done really well since WoW. All these games have come out and how many have made a big splash? How many have done just "ok" and how many have dwindled to just barely surviving?
I don't think people want a new WoW either. I think they are ready for something different but untill something different comes along which is fun and polished they'll just stay with the comfortable old shoe. The door is wide open for someone to make a killing but the idiot development houses are too scared to step up and do it. Instead they try to play it safe by being cheap and sticking to the formula. It looks to me like that hasn't been working out so well for them.
i find your statement surprising;. when some would claim that human behaviour has had the most profound change in history over the past 20 short years, technology being the prime contributor to the change.
"fun is fun"... hmm what is fun? i enjoy fishing - do you?
i won't dispute this and i think that's the essence of the article.
i disagree wholeheartly.
THIS is the reason why swg didn't retain the million subs, and the reason it was bleeding subs when they revamped the game.
however claiming that pre-cu was a financial failure i find very hard to believe of any mmo with 300k subs.
there is and was no evidence to suggest that it was a failure due to the nature of the game as you seem to suggest.
Wow, I went through this but having everything tied together hurts.
GJ writer, this article hit every point square on the head. Best article iv read in some time.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
Like when twenty-five cents would buy a sixteen ounce bottle of soda, a candy bar and a bag of chips, cigarettes were forty cents a pack, a loaf of bread was a quarter, a box of cereal thirty-nine cents, etc..
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
Make it so the even the worse player can get to max level and then make it run on very low spec machies so that everyone can play no matter what and there is the state of todays MMOS, sad sad sad, oh and RIP SWG!
I started to write a long post expressing my view of this subject, but then my guild leader called me up and asked WTF R U! We RAIDZ tonight!!!
I so wish I could "train to the zone".
Completely agree. But now you have two homeless groups...those who were brought into this world by WoW and those that existed before WoW and have this "nostalgia" complex. I am the latter.
I do think the era of our "wants" in MMO gaming are over. Regardless of what neat or inventive new company brings to the table, WoW has set a bunchmark of globalized themes that will be replicated in one manner or another. For me that means just about every game will "almost" get it right. Of course the outlook for the other people is much better. I think the 2nd group..or those that came upon MMO's due to WoW and are now looking for something...I think they will find it sooner or later. But the rest of us...the days of waiting 10 min for a port or on a 15 min boat ride are over. It's a Wal-Mart world...and we're just remember how nice those mom and pop stores used to be.