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A PvP-based MMO with no Ranged Classes....thoughts?
garrett
MMORPG.COM Staff UncommonPosts: 284
Would this type of game work ?
Take out any ranged classes and have the reality of pure melee combat.
You could still have magic in the game just not fireballs and lightening bolts hitting you from a mile away.
PvP would be fast paced all based around close combat.
If you set this up right with good factions and cool lore, this might be a great step for Fantasy MMOs.
Thoughts?
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Wouldnt that be more like a FPS without guns? The roleplaying is already long gone from rpg so I wont belabor that, but removing magic and arrows from the formula I think would really render it no longer an rpg. Just call it something else please. Maybe fight club or something.
I think it could work, but it would need more than simply being a melee fest. Like the roman games, maybe add vehicles that can actually trample players to death, and tigers!
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I could work but why would you want to take out the range from the equation? Having a range class or some range move greatly change the entire dynamic of the battlefield and increased the combat zone. With no range, in a group fight you would pretty much see nothing more than a giant ball of chaos. Furthermore, if all class are melee only with no real range option, you would be left with either some major imbalance or bland classes. Everyone standing toe to toe to each really isn't the best way to go around and do things. A better idea would be to eliminate long range combat and focus mostly on short and melee with a little bit of mid range combat.
I guess it could work, err.. maybe saying it has the possibility to work is better. What I'd worry about is how stale it would become, mostly because variety would be lacking IMO.
It may have a novelty to it at first, but as someone who usually plays ranger oriented classes, I'd have a tough time finding something that I would enjoy long term. I'm sure those who find nukers and kiters annoying would love such a game, though those of us who like to be something other than a meatshield, may have a better experience elsewhere.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It could work and could be very good BUT in making a game so you are somewhat limiting your potential customer base.Now I love melee characters and that is my preference so I would be a customer for such a game but I realize that plenty of people prefer ranged characters of healing and dps types for various reasons.These peopel would probably pass on a melee only game.
I think I know where the OP is coming from with this as the balance between ranged and melee classes has always been a central struggle in MMORPGs...no developer has found a perfect balance and one always has the advantage at any said time.
It will.
But it has to be done well,and i think it will be better if you call it "Spacial pvp experience" rather then "only melee pvp"
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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Won't work, it'll be a mindless meatgrinding, people clashing into each other banging their swords & boards. It would be fun for awhile, as anything new is always fun. But without range, for one thing there would be no caster classes, because they'd get annihilated. Secondly, no magic bolts? How far is too far? Even in games like WoW where there are ranged classes, melees have ways to close in, or lately pull you to them. WAR has the same type of classes as well. So even having range as is doesn't guarantee victory.
Now imagine playing a RvR game like DAOC with no ranged classes, and doing a siege. How boring would it be for everybody to stand around waiting for the doors to go down just so you could clash into each other for that 3 frames per second lag gameplay?
I don't know, you take away range, speed, stealth, etc.. all sorts of things people often suggest to take out of PvP, you lose a lot of strategy, fun factor, survivability of certain types of classes, and you simply become too restrictive. People in PvP games don't like to be restricted by artificial game rules too much, because it makes it feel like the game is playing you instead.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
When you hear about a new MMO, it’s normally adding new things rather than removing them. The idea sounds interesting, but in actually you’re retarding the game. Really the only way I see this working is if you find an alterative melee combat method, similar to Age of Conan, were the combat system is not simple auto-attack press button for style then repeat. You would need a depth in the melee combat, like what single player games tend to offer. If you’re shooting for a unique game, then you’re on the right track! It could even break the standard of tank, healer, and DPS groups, which would be an interesting alternative. Unfortunately this will not appease the masses, normally when I start a new MMO I always play a ranged combat class.
It could work, but why?
Unless there's a really good reason, it just sounds like you're arbitrarily limiting the variety of abilities in the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Lol what you want?
First you ask around if Darkfall is worth trying then you condem it with a topic becouse its progression you hate.
Now you wont play Darkfall becouse you affraid been killed by ranger/magic from distance.
I think i know what you want, but never happen you want a mmo 100% tailormade so you have all you like hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Not sure it would work in an mmo. What would be the lore or reasoning giving for people never figuring out how to even throw rocks.
I think it would take too much away from the game if it was melee only. DAOC had it dead on with ranged attacks. You could not run while shooting/casting (except for insta casts) Ranged classes had to stand still to fire archery/ Cast DD/ Heal. It was very ballancing
First thing I think of when I read this was FURY, so no don't think a full PVP based MMORPG will work, and definitly not as limited as suggested, that idea of OP should remain with the mulitplayer platform and not make MMORPG even more limited.
Champions Online has an open build system, so the veterans of the genre can already guess what builds the powergamers are using: tankmage. Take the highest damage long range attacks, and buff yourself for defense so as not to be too squishy. Any counter technique that melee has, such as root and snare, or superspeed and teleportation, the tankmage can also have, so 100 foot range vs 7 foot range summarizes the inequity. The developers say they are in the middle of reworking melee, but it seems there can never be balance in a classless game between range and melee. Since classless is by far what I prefer, I would could see such a game being melee only for this reason.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
Problems with that is
- Larger the scale of battles the more of a confusing mess of slaughtering it would be
RDPS keeps weaker MDPSers in check and allows for stand-offs of two armies
-Less complex combat
Who wins comes down to who does more damage and has more health
-Little variety in classes
Templar, Ninja, Herald of Xotli, Disciple of Kaine?
TBH the idea for the whole MMO to be centered around the idea is absurd but there is no reason why you can't enforce these restrictions for certain days, senarios, or pvp zones. You could even throw in the lore- reason of those with ranged are honorless fools that have no place here. Knifes Only Day in Murder's Square! Count me in!
So my question is: Why don't pvp based MMOs have class restrictions for some of the pvp content just for the safe of mixing things up? You know, for the sake of fun?
Zerg rush comes to mind.
Or better yet... in any FPS game where two opponents face off with knives/melee weapons. It's pretty lackluster.
Or even better yet, imagine a WoW BG where a bunch of warriors, rogues, hunters and shapeshifted druids charged each other. Now imagine you being one of the mass and trying to attack, select an opponent with everyone bunny hopping and passing through each others avatar like ghosts and trying to find who you're attacking or who's attacking you in a screen cluttered with 60 players avatars.
What would everyone be? Well... Meatshields or DPS-dealers.
If it was a gladitorial-kind of combat... well I could see the realism in that, or animals that are incapable of utilizing tools or throwing objects... but a whole world of PvP without ranged weapons seems kinda far fetched.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
With no healing or ranged the game would be a pile of people smashing into each other with no tactics.
One of the worst ideas I have ever read.
--John Ruskin
This is how AoC should have been made...it would have proven to be closer to the lore that way.
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514
It would work if you played as a monster or type of demon. Especially if the combat was really fast paced, Easy to kill, easy to die, easy to get back in the fight. But as an mmo? Hmm... No pvp based mmo without ranged can survive. If I turn tail and run, how are you going to stop me? If I'm quicker you couldn't range snare me. It would be a headache.
Well it would make the whole "balance" thing a lot easier, maybe. As long as they don't try to push an agility-based dodge/evade build that relies on chance mitigations. Otherwise it would just make it easier to cut out the "range n' kite" style that there is no balancing out whatsoever.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
A mmorpg with less classes?
Only melee?
Sounds about as boring as a mmorpg with only archers or only mages.
mmorpg's get ruined by 1vs1 pvpers who want nothing but total fairness. A mage brings fairness to a fight involving a dps melee tank via cc's and nukes. Kiting is fair as an archer, since your suppose to be nimble and the slow and strong melee can drop your in a few hits. Its not really suppose to be fair 1vs1 anyway, its suppose to be fair when you have tank+healer+melee dps+ranged dps vs the same.
The whole premise of mmorpgs isnt to be fair, remove the levels, remove the loots and drops, remove the classes, remove the ability to customize your stats or talants/skills and pvp is fair, but also extremely boring in all other aspects of the game. Do this and then lag becomes the big issue, since people cant just lose, it has to be an unfair win for the other guy.
Oh and i prefer the glass cannon nuke mage, with a few CC's. I expect to CC you then nuke you, however i expect you to drop me in under 3 hits. This means that whoever gets the jump first wins in a typical FFA pvp enviroment.
In almost any game with bad pvp class balance, your going to have rouges with too much damage for their survivability, and warriors with tank like defense and near rouge like dps, usually to balance a mage or archer class that was never OP to begin with.
Your never going to win crowds by removing options for players.
Well none of us have even considered how a game like this would *play" yet. If they all did EQ-style queued combat then yes. it would be pretty boring (as it would be anyway, imo), but if it was something that took the idea in strides and made "really good" melee/archery/magic-only combat you wouldn't bat an eyelash at it.
Picture a melee game that is actually as complex as an arcade fighter, or have intricate hitboxes, blocking and directional attacking systems in play. Add the essence of real skill to a game... for once. If an all archery game played out like a fast-paced FPS with arrow physics that might stick a target to a wall, then it would kick total ass. If magic did something, I dunno... like this; www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261517/A-spin-on-magicschools.html, then you wouldn't be angry about it being the only real option.
As for fairness in a game, given. It doesn't *have to* be fair, but that's in core philosophies on how you treat PvP in an open-map. You can't really protect anyone against the zerg, or even a simple 1 v 2 imbalance, so I agree why bother since a 1 v 1 encounter is rare. Usually when it does happen people don't want to fight because of how level the playing field is, and I find that funny. The problem that does occur when you don't bother with it though, is a huge lean towards the OP from the players. The "build of the month" clubs, the leaning towards sheer dps over playstyle, and the ancient issue of kiting (which wins if you don't relegate the player to kleenex-armor and less life than Mario). Any way you put it, giving options just means players pick the most efficient ones - let's not even get into pet classes.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I think this type of setup would take away much of the diversity found within an MMORPG setting and I agree with an earlier poster, it would take away a major dynamic from the game.
This would probably be more in line of the makings of an MMO Fighting game and I could see this working alongside traditional gear and character progression. Throw it on consoles and make people duke it out arcade style, perhaps earn special moves and combos to utilize during a single fight, limit options in regards to how many combos/special moves can be added to the character's repertoire in similar way to Guild Wars, you could even argue for being able to equip different sets of basic moves (every character needs a set of basic moves in a fighting game). I can see the idea going places, but not as an MMORPG specifically.
I think it's a really broad question. There are 100's of scenarios of such a game, by concept, engine structure, etc...
I think as long as you make the combat have a good tempo, and some differential in skill via learning curve, the pvp crowd will enjoy it. Adding a diverse skill-base is just a bonus.
But hey...I'm of the belief that you can make an mmo about anything in the right creative minds.
A lot of comments are being made drawing from existing games. Understandable, but misplaced concerns arise from this.
For example, someone mentioned "knife fights" in FPS games being boring. Well yeah -- is it really surprising that in a game where melee is an afterthought that melee plays like an afterthought?
It's like if I asked you if you could have fun if your class only had 4 abilities, and you drew upon your knowledge of MMORPGs to assume it would be total crap...then I would point out that TF2's classes are incredibly fun with only 4 abilities.
My own earlier post is a little guilty of the same assumptions, but I do concede that it could work. It's only when you start clamping down with details that you run the risk of breaking the concept -- for example, I think the difficulty of making it work increases if you start to talk about FPS-aiming in this melee-only MMO. Lock-targeting is a cheaper way of rapidly creating interesting (yet more abstract) abilities, which will let you rapidly create a fun game structure.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver