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A question to the PVE players and the developers.
-exo
Member Posts: 564
Now I really am not trying to belittle the PVE players here, for I too do love some PVE with friends. The focus of this thread is all based around one question.
What exactly do you feel as though you have accomplished in a game by defeating a Human programmed bot in a game over and over again with the same paths that have no choices on how to change their movements/strats/skills/abilities?
I only ask this because I myself feel as though it's pointless. For myself anyways, I gain no sense of urgency to defeat more only because it is going to be the exact same thing. It's very predictable and even someone who is extremely uneducated can figure such things out as a basic path for a programmed NPC.
My brother in law and wife had asked me one day, if it would be possible for me to ever really play a game that revolves around PVE. Of course my fast response would be, "of course not, that's silly." Until my wife brought something to my attention.
What if it is possible, and might be already, to have smart Ai in an mmorpg that is constantly changing like a player. Have the mindset of a human that recognizes the ability to change the way they perform constantly, NOT just to match the class they are going against to focus on the weakness of that class, but how they feel too?
I feel as though if something like this was implemented into a game, it would be a big hit. Granted you may have the people saying " no pvp?! what?!" Well, if you look deeper PVP fans, like myself, with smart Ai you wouldn't have to pvp because they are actually more unpredictable then your current opponent. Just an idea. People can run with it.
Discuss.
Also thank you for reading this thread, I do appreciate you taking time out of your day/night to do so. 
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
Comments
Same reason some people likes RPGs over fighting games. A matter of taste, as many things in life.
You're welcome
I used to love the dungeons in WoW pre WOTLK, where the encounters were not all just tank and spank.
Even the trash mobs required some thought on how to tackle them. For example the rogue would need to sap and the mage would need to sheep etc.
There you would see that the party was greater than the sum of the individual members. And it was immense fun, even though it was PvE it required some thought and planning. The amount of strategy invovled was even greater than PvP which is just spanking as fast as possible.
I guess I understand that , but the probably though here is we are comparing number of players. so really you can't compare 4 people on a console to thousands of players online. Doesn't really work that way. That is, if that's what you were aiming towards. If you were just speaking in general, a very broad statement heh.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
which you're correct, but a lot of people now a days refuse to want that kind of thought in their game. As if "thinking" was not fun for them. In that case then, you don't play an RPG
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
Not everyone is playing games to prove something to themselves or others.
Not everyone sees each mob battle as an end or goal - most see it as a means to their goal of leveling, accumulating wealth, resource gathering, etc.
Some people have had past experiences that have shown them that human opponents in MMOs are not the most fun people to play with and since they are paying to do something fun, they stick to PvE
Those are three very big reason for why people will choose PvE over PvP. You're playing to defeat someone, they're probably just playing to have fun and progress a character - defeating a hard-to-beat mob has little or nothing to do with that.
Most mobs in MMOs are static for a reason and that reason has nothing to do with developers being lazy. The battle, for most players, is just a means to an end. Making them more 'challenging' does not necessarily make the game more fun to most MMO gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Simple answer: I play games for fun, not achievement.
PvP is subject to too many balance issues to be fun (for me).
PvE is reliable fun.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Not everyone is playing games to prove something to themselves or others.
Not everyone sees each mob battle as an end or goal - most see it as a means to their goal of leveling, accumulating wealth, resource gathering, etc.
Some people have had past experiences that have shown them that human opponents in MMOs are not the most fun people to play with and since they are paying to do something fun, they stick to PvE
Those are three very big reason for why people will choose PvE over PvP. You're playing to defeat someone, they're probably just playing to have fun and progress a character - defeating a hard-to-beat mob has little or nothing to do with that.
Most mobs in MMOs are static for a reason and that reason has nothing to do with developers being lazy. The battle, for most players, is just a means to an end. Making them more 'challenging' does not necessarily make the game more fun to most MMO gamers.
This is very true. which is why I asked the question. I see it as though i guess players are just more unpredictable. Things begin to get boring when you know exactly what's going to happen though every time, don't they? or is this just me?
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
Smart / Dynamic AI would be nice and maybe a breath of fresh air in a somewhat stagnant gener.
I'v been around the block a few times, I'm finding it hard to get enthusiastic about any MMO at the moment, on average none bring anything new to the table, just more of the same but then thats just my oppinion,.
I never been a fan of PvP because i'm playing healers and in most MMO's, PvPing as a healer suck. I like PVE because of the story, the exploration, the well designed dungeons,etc. I used to raid in Wow Pre-WOTLK and i was really addicted to it. Playing with 40 or 25 friends and the coordination it requires back then was pretty fun. You had to study the encounters and try to find the best strategy for your group. PVP never seems to be balanced, there is always an OP class, and when they try to fix it, another class become OP or the class they nerf become useless. RVR MMO's end up being a zerg and the faction with the most people win.
ok, but why not have an OP class? Ok so every one and their mother roles one, but wouldn't that be a challenge to you as the player? I personally I would find the lowest played class, take that and turn it around. That is the exact problem that is wrong with people. They constantly want to be the best with out working for it. IT doesn't work that way, at all. You are speaking of balance.. yet.. that almost makes everything extremely boring. IF life was like that, i probably would have offed myself a long time ago. haha.
Just saying, people are so concerned about fairness that it actually can ruin a game. Why not instead even have a player, play as the boss itself maybe? Things like this are all ideas that actually provide a CHALLENGE. Which is really hard for people to hear now a days.
Also too, if you DID kill something THAT OP with such a pathetic class, now you have something to really show for yourself and to rant about, and to brag about instead of "hey remember the 40 pe-" . My point exactly. You just did something NO ONE else could do because they are tossed and thrown into their pity party.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
its still the same. Find a strategy that works, and no matter if you repeat it 1 billion times and a half in a row, it will ALWAYS work. Because PvE is scripted, hence, boring as fuck.
PvP is not predictable, sure you can use cookie cutter strategies, but sooner or later:
a) you are bound to find someone smart enough to come with a counter
b) even if you are pvping scrubs,they will finally realize you are doing the same over and over again, and will try something different
I like killing monsters with my friends. Since when did that become "boring" and "carebear-ish"? Everyone that looks down on that, imo is nothing more than either CS scum and / or griefers.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
For some people, like myself, what is accomplished in PvE is having the experience of fighting a monster in what hopefully is a credible fantasy setting.
If my focus was on beating other people, I would play a sport, or chess, or poker, or some other real life competitive undertaking. When I am in a fantasy world, I am there because my main objective is to feel like I am in a fantasy world. Sure, I would like to see AI improvements. There are a lot of things I hope to see improve in years to come that are lacking in PvE.
But what I don't want is to have my immersion broken by "U suxxorz lolololo pwned u nub" or /spit, which tends to go hand in hand with fighting other players.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
well yeah, but the problem is you are going to get that regardless of the game and whether or not it is pve or pvp. WoW, " Your GS SUCKS, screw you. no cheeve? lawlzorz rofl nub, l2p." and that BS garbage, so your argument realyl isn't holding much water with me on that one.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
its still the same. Find a strategy that works, and no matter if you repeat it 1 billion times and a half in a row, it will ALWAYS work. Because PvE is scripted, hence, boring as fuck.
PvP is not predictable, sure you can use cookie cutter strategies, but sooner or later:
a) you are bound to find someone smart enough to come with a counter
b) even if you are pvping scrubs,they will finally realize you are doing the same over and over again, and will try something different
I see your point and sometimes the strategy does not work, and the sheep breaks or the sapped guy wakes up and then the shit hits the fan and everyone runs around trying the best they can so that we don't wipe. That is the best part actually as if you succeed there is a massive sense of acheivement.
But iguess that it is at the end of the day the same thing over and over, even when the things go wrong, just depneds on who is in the group and how may adds are there. But it is sufficently different to not make it stale.
As for PvP, the strategy involved is all mine, it does not invovled groups, and even if it does it is basic and uncooridnated. I am talking battle grounds here and open world PvP. Hence i enyoy the PvE more.......
because that doesnt happen in PvE games......riiiiiiiiiii-ight
- omg nub l00k yer dps, yu sux kid. lawl lol lmao roflcopter. kik nub, leder, kik nub
- omfgwtfbbw MOTHERFU**** HEALER HEAL ME FU** YOu FU** YOU LET ME DIE FU** FU**FU**FU**
- kakakakaka no has complit set u=nab kekekekekeke
That's another reason why I say, they need to implement games so it's not "griefing" or anything of the sorts. Camping a body is not pvp and never should even fall into that classification. I don't even know why or how it fell into that, but some how it did. PvP is Player VS Player. Not Player Vs Body. guess they should invent PVB for the griefers and call it "pokemon 3000" or something where they have a bunch of people hop on pokemon characters and have thousands of people hop on fiendish ugly looking creatures and slaughter them all, while camping their body constantly. Heck, that might even bring in Subscriptions.
Got a little off subject there, but the point is it's NOT "carebearish" to PVE. at all actually, but the form it has been put into is very much so "carebearish". It's almost as if you have yourself and you are with a friend who's mother father are so concerned all the time about the childs health, so they decide to put him in a plastic bubble constantly spraying disinfectants a long with giving him his inhaler to breathe, even though he doesn't need it, while they feed him so he doesn't get messy because they just sprayed his clothes for germs. It's just sick and it almost makes you want to give them a good firm swift kick.
It's constant complaining. Whether "a boss is too hard" or " a class should not have this, but this" and then gets hit with a nerf bat , and then my favorite one is when someone who is playing a "healing" class whines because they can't do damage like a damage class. That boggles me the most. and there are times during the day where I sit there and try to solve that never ending puzzle. Extremely confusing.
Personally, if I wanted to play a damage class, I would NOT roll a class that was meant to heal. ( lol ).
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
I'm not making an argument. You asked why someone would enjoy one thing over another, and I answered your question as to me.
But yes, raiding is a big immersion breaker for exactly the reason you state. Ventrillo has made things even worse in that regard. But my answer was not limited to raiding.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
For me its facing a certain challenge and overcoming that challenge before i am meant to.
eg. making the journey from faydark to lavastorm mountains in the origanal Everquest when everything was blood red to me. Just because things are scripted does not mean there is no challenge. There are many intellegent Devs out there who work very hard to challenge us. now if you ever played the origanal Everquest you would know that to enter the Lair of nagefen and try to reach the Red dragon himself to take a peek without getting killed was one of the games greatest challenges! unless you had the comany of 30 to 40 high level players!
PVE all depends on how you challenge yourself. do you wait till the right level before taking on said dungeon or do you try to beat it before it was designed to be beaten?
While on the other hand most PVP games i have played consist of higher level players ganking newer players. Darkfall is my prime example. the higher players would run from players who were higher than themselves...but camp the starter area's as it was easy cash/loot!
...now i ask you....where is the challenge in that?
Not everyone is playing games to prove something to themselves or others.
Not everyone sees each mob battle as an end or goal - most see it as a means to their goal of leveling, accumulating wealth, resource gathering, etc.
Some people have had past experiences that have shown them that human opponents in MMOs are not the most fun people to play with and since they are paying to do something fun, they stick to PvE
Those are three very big reason for why people will choose PvE over PvP. You're playing to defeat someone, they're probably just playing to have fun and progress a character - defeating a hard-to-beat mob has little or nothing to do with that.
Most mobs in MMOs are static for a reason and that reason has nothing to do with developers being lazy. The battle, for most players, is just a means to an end. Making them more 'challenging' does not necessarily make the game more fun to most MMO gamers.
This is very true. which is why I asked the question. I see it as though i guess players are just more unpredictable. Things begin to get boring when you know exactly what's going to happen though every time, don't they? or is this just me?
For how you are playing and what you are looking for at the mob combat level, I can see it being boring. For others, the battle, again, is just a means, and the faster/easier it can be compelted the more appealing/satisfying it is for most players.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Im interested in this "player playing a boss mob" idea though! i always thought my best EQ days were when the GM's decided to take control of a mob and do an event. So in essence you got me!...that is PVP!
ha! well exactly. ya see, there ya go. That too, in a sense is "PVP" .. just. .you're the boss lol. That in itself is a HUGE challenge.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
well see, that's why i was saying griefing is silly. But then again, if you really want to look at it that way we can.
** you are now in darkfall with no skills set in to your character** ** bang dead** "WHAT tHE HELL?!!!111one." **
If you can achieve getting out of there alive, you have already accomplished something. If you can fight back and manage to kill someone on purpose/accidental , you have accomplished something. then you get the bragging rights of showing this guy/lady how bad he or she really is. *Shrugs* that the point of view from that perspective you gave me, and is typical for every game and how stuff like that should be taken.
But it's not because people don't want to rise to that challenge, because they can not handle it.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
PvE content doesn't go out of it's way to gank and then corpse camp significantly lower level or undergeared players, while making inappropriate comments in an attempt to further rub in their defeat.
And as much as PvP players try to pass of PvP as being non-scripted and so much more dynamic... it rarely is. PvP often follows a very similar pattern in rotation between nearly every fight, mostly only altering slightly per composition of the opponents, which surprise, is the same as PvE.
Honestly, PvP in MMOs tends to be extremely unbalanced, and therefore not fun. There are some that seem to enjoy being at the top, simply because they rolled a FOTM that's a bit over the top, but for a lot of people it's not fun to win all the time because you're overpowered, nor is it fun losing most of the time because you're inherently underpowered. That's why I stick to real PvP games when I want to PvP, which are FPS and RTS games explicitly balanced for PvP gameplay.