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General: Wood: Community Shouldn't Mean Marketing
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com's Jon Wood writes this week about the Community Manager's position within a game studio, and how tying that position to the marketing department can be shortsighted.
I wanted to take the space of my column this week to talk about something that I've been thinking about on and off for a couple of months now, and that's the role of the Community Manager on the staff of a current MMORPG.
I'm going to go ahead and put the disclaimer on this article saying that I'm not intimately familiar with the specific internal workings of how each and every development studio is structured and that this is more of a musings piece than it is a direct criticism of any one company or individual.
With that being said, I have something to get off of my chest: Community Managers should not, I repeat should absolutely not, be members of your MMO's marketing team. If they are, there's a good chance that you're missing the point and a valuable opportunity to create a meaningful bridge between your game's development team and the people who are paying to play it.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I think MMO players are too demanding of community to begin with.
When I play FPS, RTS, racing, RPG games I don't visit their sites and talk with the developers. I also rarely do it with MMOs. Of the dozens of MMOs I've played I've only used the forums on 2 of them to date.
But yet for some reason MMO players expect all this interaction with the company, something no other game player expects or even seeks out. And then if there isn't enough talk with the players they suddenly feel slighted and that they are owed all this discussion and back and forth.
Why all of a sudden with MMOs to players demand interaction and community with the developers? They don't in other games, they don't with TV shows, they don't with movies, they don't with authors. But yet in this one specific form of entertainment it becomes expected that the company have a big community setup ready to talk to players about the game.
I know someone will say that cost is a factor, well my XBox Live account costs as much per month as an MMO. And there isn't any back and forth with Microsoft over the future and direction of XBox 360.
It clearly isn't because it's a form of entertainment since no other form of entertainment offers such a thing.
So why do players of MMOs feel they are OWED a community and a direct link to the devs?
Though this response may not be completely true, or the primary reason for the high demand for interaction, I think the reason people clamor for communication from MMO development companies is that MMOs in their very nature are community-oriented games. When a player steps into the game, they are becoming part of a specific community, and as such it carries outside of the game and into the forums.
From what I have seen, the Community Manager is a tough job to fill. Some players expect the CM to know all the details and inside points about the game, and so they clamor for new info to be leaked or released. I doubt the CM even knows these things. As mentioned in the article, the CM serves as a theoretically impartial bridge between potential players and the investors/developers. It's their job to say, "Hey, these people really want to see this in the game. These are their concerns, hopes, dreams, etc. What can we do/ are we doing to cater to this?" Afterwards, the CM has to figure out how to manage communities of players to get out of them not only what they really want, but to keep players on track with accurate information.
But, again, I'm probably entirely off-track.
another reason is that MMOS by nature change. What you bought on the box could be quite different a few months later. The papers serve as your mouth piece, helping promote the game and draw people in because you CAN'T put on the back of the box things like "this quest is harder then this" or "gold farmers only bother you in this zone" a new player relies on the cumunity to advance, and the community in return expects the developers to make them want to come back.
When you buy Bioshock that's it a one time investment with (outside of patches and hot fixes) a set, stable world.
MMOS are a complety different animal
Good points Jon and Snarling Wolf.
Never worked in games but have worked in small software shops that grew big. Usually in the beginning you are so small that the Sales guy is the PR guy is the Forums guy - mainly because there isn't enough work to keep separate people busy at each of those. Once you go live with something then you have to add in Help Desk, User Groups for existing clients, Trade Conferences for showing off to potential clients, advertising, etc. There is definitely a disconnect between Sales/PR/Advertising and Forums/Help Desk/User communications. This is real obvious when your marketing guy tries to do the hard sell to existing clients at user groups - when what clients want is for your dev team to address their huge bug list. Really not much different than what happens now between marketing and forums for MMOs.
What most of this comes down to is expectations and managing them at all levels. From the people funding the project on down to the players. If the big guys on the project run off at the mouth - no one will be happy.
you see i could be wrong, but i've have had the impression for some time that the marketing teams of mmo's are so out of touch with their existing playerbase or with what their product actually is and wants to be that it prevents them from doing their job effectively. of course a marketing team has to be the "cheerleader" of their product but they need to know what it is as well, what their weaknesses and strengths are and what their market segments expects.
a CM, however, has the knowledge to convince and explain to people why they should try their game, as well as responding to people's questions.
on the other hand, as you suggest, having a CM actively trying to recruit players would of course limit his time to address the concerns of the playerbase, as well as collecting feedback and so on and so forth. there are many game forums out there complaining at the lack of communication they get but it cannot be all blamed on the CM. Look at CO they fired their CM for communicating too much.
I couldn't agree more. I have always viewed what a CMs job should be like this...
He's like the guy who got into the friends & family alpha and got to hang out with the devs during development, and has been there from day 1. He's one of "us", but has the dev's ear and knows what he's talking about. He's the guy whose word we trust, not like those marketing suits or the bean-counters who are just in it for the money. He's a gamer, in it for the love of the game. He's one of us...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
The job of a CM is never easier or harder than the product he is working with. The thing is - when it comes to MMOs, that means CMs need to work overtime since very rarely do the games actually deliver in what the gamers are after (or more than not - been told the game has to offer from the PR team).
I think alot of ppl are now realising that MMOs were a bubble - that now is turning into a comercial buisness rather than real gaming. The last 2-3 years have turned alot of ppl away from MMOs cause the games have been lackluster at best. Good CM or not - these games dont stand a chance in hell.
There was an article about reviews last night. The thing is - both gamers and reviewers know the "trick" with MMOs now. You can fool ppl once or twice... but after that you don't only start to hurt your own company. You actually are damaging the reputation of an entire genre. And thats what is going on now. The MMORPG genre is on a verge of beeing deemed as the genre of the greedy developers/publishers that release crappy games.
This is something that the genre as a whole needs to improve on. Not like it will happen. Just look at the interview with EE on this site and realise that Funcom are now "building up TSW" (in other words creating a hype) and keeping "the best bits" (who cares if they are even in the game) to last... Cryptic just did the same thing with an whole "other" faction in STO. A whole bit that then wasn't in the game.. But it sold extra copies - just like the lifetime sub with exclusive Borg did....
For God sake MMORPG.COM - your job is to see through this and actually PREVENT these things from happening. Who cares if a CM is more doing PR than actually working on what he should do.. The ENTIRE team of EVERY SINGLE freaking MMO is only doing PR instead of actually creating a good solid game. Its sites like MMORPG.COM that need to find out about it and report it before it happens.
Start to ask the hard questions. Not just shut up and let the PR team (including CMs) go on and on about some utopia that you ALL know is bullshit.
Good points, good article.
Because it's the very nature of MMOs. In an MMO you inhabit a vast game world where you are a citizen of that world and part of that world's community. In a way you can affect that world and bring about changes to that world, both positive and negative. Being able to have an effect on the very game mechanics that world operates is also an extension of that philosophy.
And there are the practical reasons that the community of said MMO will often help beta test that MMO. How many MMOs have a test server where patches, expansions and other content is beta tested? Honestly, I can't think of a single one that doesn't. How can one properly beta test new game mechanics if they have no access to those building those mechanics?
There is also the fact that MMOs constantly change and evolve. The fact that by their nature these games are never finished means that in good MMOs the community can give helpful advice and constructive criticism on the direction of the game or the implementation of game mechanics.
Now, not every MMO has a level of participation from the devs or community access to the devs. Some game have no access at all while some games foster as much interaction between the devs as possible.
Why is the development team so sacrosanct in your opinion that they should never mingle with the unwashed masses of the community? Why should devs be put on a pedestal to be gazed at by the community, but never contacted or interacted with?
Good article.
I am a CM on the title in sig and for far too many years we have gradually seen CM's elsewhere drift away from the official forums and community for the title they are working on and become more marketing peoples.
We all know the type, the twitter and facebook CM who barely interacts with the fans does not play they're own game and quite often shows a lot of disdain to the community and treats them with a sense of contempt.
As a player of a bygone era in EQ and SWG I really wanted to get that feeling of a true CM back within FS and have achieved that our community is key and the CM has to be absolutely central to that community, providing fans with everything they need in terms of communication and support for community endevours.
As mentioned earlier a lot of the modern FB CM's do not even play they're own game they can rhyme of features sure enough but they don't actually play, this again is something both myself and the rest of the team do often and I'm not talking once a week I mean everyday how else can you get a true guage of player feeling, we all know forums only make up a small percentage of the games playerbase.
CM's should not only be running events for players to take part in but they should be activeley participating in player ran events being that show of support to what the community is trying to achieve.
Last but not least they have to see the game as something other than this perfect game marketing types would have you believe the day any CM, Management or Dev thinks the game is complete and cannot have new content or more polish is the day you have failed as a CM.
op!often in the crew somewhere of those outfit they know the idea of the on responsible is a bad one
but nobody is willing to speak because it often end up like this
THE BOSS IS ALWAYS RIGHT ,HE DOESNT IMPOSE HIS IDEA HE DISCUSS ETC!
in the end the boss goes where it cost the less period if it could cost only a dime he would jump on it
and most game did it this way
they invented the tetris of the 2 k era be it peggle or other game like that made turnament and voila
a mmo ,yaaa rrriggghtt!
i dont think it will get better anytime soon lol
but its very easy to pin point where the next big tile will come out of
take all the company in xfire top 100 and all with 3 title or more in the top 100 have a very big chance to be at least = in term of amount of player compared to wow world wide
Good community managers are like diamonds, they should be treasured. They have to deal with rampant fanboism, brown nosing, fotm followers, trolls and haters on one side, through to blinkered devs, marketing people who say "put this in it will sell the game" and "profits are the only metric" management on the other. To put them in the marketing department would make their jobs so much harder, as they would lose the trust of the thinking part of the game communities they interact with.
IMO the MMO companies need to be a lot more open about the way they want their games to progress and they need a coherent vision of it, which the community managers can present to their communities, filter the noise in the feedback and take legitimate concerns back. A couple hundred thousand people will examine the vision and twist it, turn it and put it through the wringer then they will post their thoughts on what could happen. 200,000 people can spot flaws that a couple hundred game personnel might miss.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
I think all Community Managers let out a happy sigh when they read this article. I know I certainly did. Thank you, Jon!
A point well taken ! A CM should be an ombudsman for the community...not to mention a beacon reflecting the mood and in the end, success in holding a player base. I know it can be maddening because marketing is always the top rung in any business. Say anything that they don't agree with and they feel slighted and to often take action to remove that which causes them pain.
Once the game is launched successfuly the CM is the one that will create a feeling of community ( wow, they realy care! ) which will, in turn create a loyal player base.
Its a rare company that understands the value a CM brings to the table but for the few that do it will for the most part be well worth it.
I can't think of any game,business, team, whatever that is a top rung without a general feeling that the entity is providing good value. Customer relations should be a top priority, equal or perhaps above marketing once the enterprise is launched. How is marketing going to know what to market to without knowing what the customer wants?
In an ideal world you would be quite right. But the reality is rather different. In reality, WAY too many companies adopt an attitude that "You're either with us, or you're with the Players!"... Sorry, I had a W flash back there... ^^ They expect everyone to either be cheer leaders(especially CM's and their staff) or say nothing what so ever that hasn't been cleared by marketing/legal.
Those that don't actively consider their players to be The Enemy, still favor giving them the Mushroom Treatment. Said treatment usually extends to the CM's. All too many view CM's as a firewall/moat to keep the rabble(players) away from the companies Dev's/Suits. This attitude is obvious in the lack of professional attention to real customer service in the industry in general. Its also why so many people are totally disgusted by so many aspects of MMO's in general.
The problem is a cm is often the marketing guy anyways so many companies are making them where many hats.
Heck even in lotro you the cm, the gm's and the devs all promoting their game and talking about how great it is, all the while quashing the i quit threads, and the threads where folks take negative shots. God forbid somebody say anything negative, or they get a warning.
CMs have a hard job.
The players ask questions and more often than not, the CM isn't given the answers or even the authority to provide the answer if they do know. Once and if they do answer anything, from that point forward if they don't answer all the questions then players get mad.
If the CM admits that there is anything wrong with the game or deserving of criticism, then it's not simply the CM's opinion. It's that the company admits whatever it is being talked about sucks, and the next thing you see is that CM so and so has left for other opportunities and to spend more time with their family - we wish them the best.
They have to take continuous abuse, and if they lose their cool even once or twice CM so and so has left for other opportunities and to spend more time with their family - we wish them the best.
If they say what character they play or what server they are on, then they are part of a conspiracy to assist their guild, class or faction. If they don't say then it's that they don't play the game and why is someone who doesn't play a CM?
CMs are in a unique zone that can found directly between Rock and Hard Place.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you know any basics to business, you should understand every transaction requires some degree of trust. When you're building something that people expect to be a long-term investment (not even just in terms of dollars, but their time, entertainment and ultimately overall trust), they're going to continuously demand things from their respective companies. They uphold their end of the bargain by continuously paying into the game, the company has to return the favor in ways that customer's value. Guess what happens when the customer decides that the company isn't providing them any value, thats right, the company loses money.
Trying to relate regular video games to MMORPG's is futile because there's a couple unique traits that MMORPG's have, persistence and community. In a regular video game, even games more tailored to multiplayer like Halo, you can easily have as much fun (and for some even more) if you played even by yourself or just a trusted group of friends as opposed to random people. In MMORPG's, you kind of have no choice, you are part of the world hence you are part of the community whether you like it or not. Everyone is influencing the game experience for each other whether it be negative or positive, its still influenced and it impacts people's overall satisfaction. Companies have to ensure customers are satisfied in general hence this article.
The CM should be more focused about the customers overall satisfaction rather than highlighting the positives and spinning the negatives. That's how trust is compromised and as the first line of communication between the company and the customers, trust is probably the most vital part of the position.
Why is the development team so sacrosanct in your opinion that they should never mingle with the unwashed masses of the community? Why should devs be put on a pedestal to be gazed at by the community, but never contacted or interacted with?
It has nothing to do with putting them on a pedestal, it's being tired of hearing all the gamers on these forums (unlike the voices of the people actually in the games) thinking they are owed things. They think they are owed games, they are owed more for less, they are owed a say, and they are owed communication and first hand involvement in what is going on. Tell me other businesses where the customers feel so owed, I can't think of any.
Sure people play MMOs for sometimes long periods of time. But there's been other types of games that I've played regularly for years, and in neither case did I think I was now important enough to determine the direction of the game. I also don't think even the majority of MMO players feel this way either, it's just the handful that visit places like this. The majority of gamers are content to accept it as just a game and they log in and have fun and don't ever think they should have a place to shout their opinions from.
There's a certain point I make sure to remember as I go through life. I'm just a person, one of billions. I'm no more important then any of the other billions of people in the world. And only a few of those billions of people are more important then me either. I don't go to companies official forums and demand they listen and heed my opinions. I speak the same way any consumer should speak, if I don' t like something I don't spend money on it, if I do like something I spend money on it. But what I don't do is spend money on something then go to the official forums and bitch that they're not doing it right all while paying them monthly.
I've also played MMOs that started with a sound vision and solid gameplay only to later be destroyed as they listen to every complaint that came in and change how the game played. For ever person that is complaining there are dozens of more who aren't complaining. So if a company listens to that vocal minority the game can quickly be ruined for all those who are enjoying themselves.
That is false. There are no MMOs out there where the player's actions change the world for other players. Therefore no other players affect my gameplay.
I go on quests and if someone that goes with me ruins it for me I don't group with them anymore. Just like in any non-MMO multiplayer game, if someone is bothering you then you put them on a list not to play with them anymore.
Literally other people in MMOs can affect your personal gameplay to the same degree as any multiplayer game. And just like all those other games you have the same means to stop them, ignoring them, squelching them, reporting them, adding them to a list to know not to group with them.
Sure it's a world with more people in it then most other multiplayer games, but the multiplayer functionality is still the same. Once MMOs start (if ever) to have worlds where each players actions actually transform the world for everyone else for the rest of time you may have a point. But we're not anywhere close to that type of game yet.
That is false. There are no MMOs out there where the player's actions change the world for other players. Therefore no other players affect my gameplay.
I go on quests and if someone that goes with me ruins it for me I don't group with them anymore. Just like in any non-MMO multiplayer game, if someone is bothering you then you put them on a list not to play with them anymore.
Literally other people in MMOs can affect your personal gameplay to the same degree as any multiplayer game. And just like all those other games you have the same means to stop them, ignoring them, squelching them, reporting them, adding them to a list to know not to group with them.
Sure it's a world with more people in it then most other multiplayer games, but the multiplayer functionality is still the same. Once MMOs start (if ever) to have worlds where each players actions actually transform the world for everyone else for the rest of time you may have a point. But we're not anywhere close to that type of game yet.
But yet, you prove my very point in your own post. This has nothing to do with players influencing the environment, its about players influencing each other. That was the whole point.
Someone bothering you was some kind of interaction despite any of your denials which affected your game experience. Hence, in turn to help alleviate that, you don't play with them anymore. This is what I was talking about, now imagine a massive group of people of all sorts. What if the game design encouraged the community to be bad, to interact horribly with each other? You don't think that could affect how a player's game experience in that world would be affected? If everyone played a particular game because griefing (poor player interaction) was the best way to play the game, how long would you think that game would last?
The company has goal and it is primarily about profit, but if a Community Manager isn't there to nurture the community appropriately, the game can easily fall apart no matter how polished the game is based on poor player interaction. And I can tell your perspective of MMO is a fairly shallow (short-sighted, skin deep) one because you're belief that multiplayer functionality especially to the one I alluded to (Halo) is actually the same as the way an MMO works. I would love to see you list the similarities aside from the fact that it includes more than 1 player.
If you're Xbox Live subscription cost as much as an MMO than you are getting ripped off. My Xbox Live subscription costs $60 a year, just like everybody else's.
The cost involved in playing an MMORPG is most definitely the crux of the issue concerning why players are so demanding.
Lately, developers are shoving games out that don't warrant a monthly sub and expecting players pay for it.
When MMORPGs were in their infancy, the developers put a heck of a lot more effort into their games. Those games warranted a monthly sub.
The CM isn't a good position at any MMO. You're stuck between the players complaining on one side (and often exaggerating for effect), developers who aren't going to tell you what players want to hear and dealing with groups that expect 24/7 service. It's why such positions turn over so quickly - they are just stepping stones into the 'good' jobs at MMO studios.
The other thing is that a CM can have as good a relationship with the community as possible, but they'll still have to deliver bad news. MMO forums don't take kindly to that. And not every forum member is going to like their CMs, meaning they will at times do some very offensive things to you.
CMs are the public face of a MMO, and sometimes all they can say is, "I'll look into it". They have no power to implement change or drive priorities beyond which those above them provide. Plus it is not likely that the community is going to agree on anything specific. No matter what, you are always going to be annoying someone as a CM.
Eating bees indeed.
CMs need to be the filter of what needs to be listened to and what doesn't, nothing more. Developers need to listen to community feedback to survive. On the other hand, they also need to know when to let go and tell parts of the community to "STOW IT!" as if you cater to EVERYTHING the community wants (which is impossible) you're going to end up compromising the original philosophy of the game which in the end will only cause it to be a hodgepodge of things that annoy everyone in your community. IE: It's better to please one group than piss off everyone trying to please everyone at once. If they just took in everything the community said, you'd end up with an ultra homogenized super elitist or super casual game that would be junk in general except for the handful of screamers on your forums.
Honestly, I don't even agree with his idea of marketings job though. Marketings job should end at making the game known and providing information on the game. The whole hype train bullshit and basically being paid to trick people into liking your game with false promises and spin that are "ok because they're technically legal 8D" is a bullshit practice that's wrong with advertising in general today. It's especially a terrible practice with MMOs because all it's going to get you is box sales. The second they see that you've been feeding them lies and half truths the entire development process, your community feels "used" and the ones who aren't complete shills will bail as soon as the free month is up.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
There's a fine line to be struck between the two roles in my opinion, a poor CM would take a public stance alongside disgruntled users - that's not a useful message to send to anyone, though in the background they will be more forthcoming.
If you have a look through community forums, WoW is a great example of a CM job done well, the CM's have a sense of humour are willing to take it on the chin for Blizzard when the community has the right of things, but they are also happy to close down whinge threads and try to kill all known trolling dead.
Then you take a look at the STO official forums, what a disaster, devs admitting that the content isn't up to scratch, flame wars between the pro- and anti- divisions, thousands of threads dedicated to why this game is so bad, and so on... that's poor CM work there.
A CM needs to market their product, nurture their product and help address the genuine concerns of players, but they aren't there to be the players "bi-otch". There are times (see WoW forums for good examples) when the players need to be told to take a hike, that in fact 500 players are not representative of the entire community and that their ideas are sometimes lousy ones too.