Blizzard already has the perfect mode in place. You can buy stupid vanity items, server moves, or name/race change. No game items. Nothing you need in any capacity to play the game.
As for F2P games, for me the cash shop is a no go zone. I understand they are trying to make money but I will not pay real money for anything other than a subscription.
If you game is good enough then you can go subscription. If it isn't then don't expect me to prop it up in your cash shop.
Exactly. I really can't understand why RMT is so scandolous. No one is forcing you idiots to pay for anything you don't want to. If you are too poor to waste your money on virtual goods and services, then don't. It really is that simple folks.
I couldn't careless if someone pays their way to the top. People need to stop trying to shape the game for everyone else and just play their own game or better yet, just stop playing MMOGs. The amount of drama this topic generates is hilarious.
Microtransactions and RMT is not going anywhere. If you can't accept that go find something else to bitch about or go play a Wii game.
I'm not confused at all. I want P2P games to either avoid RMT completely, or make any item offered for cash to be readily available from performing in game activities that the average player can readily achieve.
F2P games can have whatever cash shop model suits them, as I pretty much steer clear because i don't want to be competitive based on the money I spend.
Now that we've cleared that up, how do we determine who agrees with me, how many there are of us, and then communicate to every MMORPG Developer out there today?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Subscription games with microtransactions (we're not counting account services here) haven't been around long enough in North America to provide any significant statistics.
Microtransactions internationally are a different story, as the gaming culture overseas (particularly in Asia) is much different in the way they approach spending money in a game.
Blizzard already has the perfect mode in place. You can buy stupid vanity items, server moves, or name/race change. No game items. Nothing you need in any capacity to play the game.
As for F2P games, for me the cash shop is a no go zone. I understand they are trying to make money but I will not pay real money for anything other than a subscription.
If you game is good enough then you can go subscription. If it isn't then don't expect me to prop it up in your cash shop.
Exactly. I really can't understand why RMT is so scandolous. No one is forcing you idiots to pay for anything you don't want to. If you are too poor to waste your money on virtual goods and services, then don't. It really is that simple folks.
I couldn't careless if someone pays their way to the top. People need to stop trying to shape the game for everyone else and just play their own game or better yet, just stop playing MMOGs. The amount of drama this topic generates is hilarious.
Microtransactions and RMT is not going anywhere. If you can't accept that go find something else to bitch about or go play a Wii game.
They seem to believe that mmos are competitve games despite the fact that there is no end to the game and you don't win or lose. I have to admit it's always boggled me a bit. You'd think people would be happy to find a cool item they don't need and sell it to some schmuck for $100. Yet they bitch about it. Totally crazy if you ask me lol.
I'm not confused at all. I want P2P games to either avoid RMT completely, or make any item offered for cash to be readily available from performing in game activities that the average player can readily achieve. F2P games can have whatever cash shop model suits them, as I pretty much steer clear because i don't want to be competitive based on the money I spend. Now that we've cleared that up, how do we determine who agrees with me, how many there are of us, and then communicate to every MMORPG Developer out there today? Oops...now there's a problem.
I agree. I will never purchase anything in an item shop. If I am no longer able to advance without making a purchase I will quit and move on to another game.
94% of statistics are made up on the spot. Subscription games with microtransactions (we're not counting account services here) haven't been around long enough in North America to provide any significant statistics. Microtransactions internationally are a different story, as the gaming culture overseas (particularly in Asia) is much different in the way they approach spending money in a game.
So what makes Asians so much more likely to spend money on a game as North Americans? I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Back when I played D2 I used to sell items like crazy and none of my customers were from Asia. We're talking thousands of dollars here. Same thing in SWG. Sold 20 million credits for $150 consistently for months, all to North Americans. Obviously, that is only a small sample of the whole, but North Americans buy just as much silly tangible stuff as anywhere else in the world. What would make gaming items any different?
Companies are doing research, and (poor or not), their research is finding that players will pay real money for items even after a subscription fee. They don't even have to ask, really: all they have to do is look at their sales. Just an additional thought: a developer once told me that out of a $15 subscription fee, only a third of that goes toward all the actual costs of playing the game, from development, server maintenance, and staffing. The rest, he said, is profit. Think of where that puts RMTs on the list.
What i wonder is if their research contemplates how much they will cease to make in the long run when their reputation as a MMO company is on the ground.
Or, if the opportunity cost of making more money out of RMT is translated into less monthly subscriptions by those who refuse to get involved in RMT and if it will pay off in the long run.
As you've said, its early days for RMT and so far it has been applied on existing games. I think we'll get a better picture a few months or years down the road.
If this were true, it would end all the "they are a business and need to make money" arguments. I am not saying that it would be wrong for a company to try and increase their profits, as long as it is done by improving their products and services which will naturally result in increased sales; or if they announce their RMT intentions from the get-go and people can decide wheather or not they will buy and play their games.
Now just because people don't participate in rmt doesn't mean they'd ever quit a game over it. Only the most fanatical of the bunch would take something so insignificant to such an extreme. When you take that into consideration, I find it hard for developers to be concerned in any way about the small amount of people who would actually leave their game because of rmt. Furthermore, given the drastic increase of free mmos with cash shop models THAT AREN'T GOING OUT OF BUSINESS, I think that it is abundantly clear just how many people participate in rmt, and have absolutely no problem spending money on a game beyond a subscription.
i never said they would - hence why RMT is successful.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub? or if its run by a company known to do as they please and with a high probability of changing their initial revenue model?
now there's a question.
and saxxon, ive read a few of your points and you replied to mine before i edited it - we are talking about AAA, subscription-based MMO's here; not about F2P games which of course have used RMT for a few years now and nobody complains.
i never said they would - hence why RMT is successful.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub? now there's a question.
Well you're asking the wrong guy. I'm sure you've figured out by now that I'm a supporter of rmt. However, you do bring up a very valid question, one I've pondered for some time.
I personally believe yes, that people would buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have rmt, but only if it's a truly good mmo. This has actually been proven to some extent with Cryptic's model (although Cryptic's games being a "good" mmos is slightly debatable!!). However, I do admit that I have bias and thus my opinion in this matter does not hold the weight of an independent observer.
I also admit that I don't even view micro transactions or cash shops as rmt. I consider rmt to be player to player transactions only, just as it is in the station exchange. The more interesting question to me is what would happen if a top quality AAA mmo opened with a station exchange in place. There are of course the other consideration as to whether it is the choice of the player to play on an exchange server or a "pure" non-rmt server. That's where my interest is far more so than in the plethora of f2p cashshop mmos.
(looks like part of my post is a bit insignificant given your edits. but gotta go now hopefully we can discuss later).
Sorry to break the news to you, but RMT has been around for about 10 years buddy. Don't consider the 50 people that bitch and moan in every RMT article to make up the voice of the entire MMOG player base.
Believe what you want, but the majority of players log into their accounts everyday and just have fun playing the game with their friends and don't care about RMT whatsoever.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub?
Sorry to break the news to you, but RMT has been around for about 10 years buddy. Don't consider the 50 people that bitch and moan in every RMT article to make up the voice of the entire MMOG player base. Believe what you want, but the majority of players log into their accounts everyday and just have fun playing the game with their friends and don't care about RMT whatsoever.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub?
Yes i would because i will have fun regardless.
1. not on games with a subscription plan; which is what has generated the debate.(existing ones too for that matter).
2. others might not feel the same way you do, which is what the discussion is about.
There's no confusion whatsoever in the mmo community. The 2+ billion gold selling industry proves this beyond much doubt. What you do have is a vocal minority who are against rmt and claim to represent the community, yet the data shows otherwise. Face the facts that most people couldn't care less about rmt in any form, and far more people participate in it than could ever possibly be against it. Again, the numbers prove this.
Expect that some day soon a good mmo will come out that not only supports rmt, but even goes so far as to facilitate it. SOE has done this with EQ2 and has had a ton of success. However, EQ2 is but a drop in the bucket as far as mmo subscriptions go. It's when we finally get a really good population game allow and facilitate rmt that the vocal minority will finaly realize just how wrong they've been all these years.
There is no confusion. Just convenient glossing over the facts.
As much as I dislike the concept of RMT and wish it gone, this post is 100% correct.
Sorry to break the news to you, but RMT has been around for about 10 years buddy. Don't consider the 50 people that bitch and moan in every RMT article to make up the voice of the entire MMOG player base. Believe what you want, but the majority of players log into their accounts everyday and just have fun playing the game with their friends and don't care about RMT whatsoever.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub?
Yes i would because i will have fun regardless.
1. not on games with a subscription plan; which is what has generated the debate.(existing ones too for that matter).
2. others might not feel the same way you do, which is what the discussion is about.
If you can show me the statistical data then i would love to believe you.
WoW has been around for 5 years and it's the most heavily RMT'd game out there. Its player base is now pushing 13 million and will most likely increase once the expansion is released. I mean really, need i say more?
Instead of asking people if they oppose RMT in MMOGs -- why don't you ask people if they have ever quit playing because of it. Therein you will find the real answer.
Not a fan of microtransactions, but it won't stop me from playing a game if I like it, but do prefer if they have one server with and one without.
Also if they do see the need to have it then, I prefer if they're fluff items, or say extra character slots (as long as subscribers get a reasonable number without buying more).
94% of statistics are made up on the spot. Subscription games with microtransactions (we're not counting account services here) haven't been around long enough in North America to provide any significant statistics. Microtransactions internationally are a different story, as the gaming culture overseas (particularly in Asia) is much different in the way they approach spending money in a game.
So what makes Asians so much more likely to spend money on a game as North Americans? I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Back when I played D2 I used to sell items like crazy and none of my customers were from Asia. We're talking thousands of dollars here. Same thing in SWG. Sold 20 million credits for $150 consistently for months, all to North Americans. Obviously, that is only a small sample of the whole, but North Americans buy just as much silly tangible stuff as anywhere else in the world. What would make gaming items any different?
Sorry, I just don't buy this culture argument.
Why not? Remember that in countries like Korea they use very different "subscription" systems and are well known for being very serious about their gaming activities. Do you honestly believe that different gaming cultures around the world all buy, proportionally, the same amount of RMT services? I mean all you really need to do is look at how popular F2P games are in Asia compared to here. You can't tell me they don't spend more than us on RMT.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Originally posted by merv808
Originally posted by Malickie
This isn't only a case with RMT, this point could be applied to everything about MMO gaming. We as a customer base are contradictory toward every facet of MMO gaming. Even down to our opinion on communication.When developers do try and conversate about something we have been complaining about, half the time the discussion boils down to, "you shouldn't be focused on this" "you should be focusing on "that". Leaving that conversation and any consensus gained in limbo. There's no remedy for this either, it will always be this way. People are just too different in our preferences to gain any substantial understanding, through discussion on the subject of what we want as a whole. That's why the industry has stagnated over the years IMO.
^Truth^
and honestly its not that we are confused about MTs.... Honestly, I don't think they have ANY place in p2p games, and I can say that until I'm blue in the face. But there will always be lazy people who are willing to pay to get "to the top" faster. And my voice, (and millions of others) will never speak louder than thousands of people spending cash.
Too many people wanting to bring that cheat code mentality into RPGs where it has no business being
The root of all the problems is this mentality.
most F2P games never offer a way to "get to the top" It is all a very fractured and wrong perception. Most players, near 80% never pay in any F2P game, yet they are playing.
It's like the quote I read earlier "I like this game, even though it uses cash-shop". What? really? You honestly feel that F2P games are worse than P2P in general? Then why are you playing F2P games? If the answer is because they are free, then whether it has a cash shop or not should be irrelevant to you.
Only people who play the game as though it has an ultimate never changing end, where they can access all the stuff in the game that has the highest numbers dislike cash shops because they want to use it as a tool to get to this non-existent "top" that they created. They are a very small percentage of gamer types that don't play the games for fun. They don't see the point in buying a chair because it's a chair, they only want it if it adds to them being more powerful. They are also the ones that are spending, and spending the most, and the ones complaining at the same time.
Most people play the games and enjoy them without paying, or like buying a candy bar at the store, every once in a while buy something extra for their own personal game play.
Cash shops do not offer a cheat code type of game play, they offer things that sally may want, and they offer things that billy may.
I do agree their will always be those people that like to cheat and hack and all kinds of things. Those players will exist in all games, regardless of how you pay to play.
Payment options are changing and evolving all the time. I guarantee there will be very different payment options in the future. F2P are much larger in number than subs. The US is the only one who predominantly uses monthly payments. The East, which is a much larger market with many more games, uses other payment options and cash shops.
Some cash shops are better than others, but they are built for your style of game play, and to allow you to pay, pay what you want, and pay at your leisure. The idea that they all offer an imbalance is a conceited ego-centric, and backwards country-centric idea that most players don't subscribe to. Most players are out there right now playing their games and having a blast, and they don't feel they're being short-changed in the slightest, because they know they aren't. They are in control of their emotions, and realize that they can't beat everyone in a sub game or a pay game, and that paying won't make a difference for them, whether they are the one being killed or doing the killing. But mostly they realize that games let you do thousands of things inside them. PvP is just one tiny part.
The power has already been given to the player, they just want to blame someone else when they feel like they need to have more than someone else.
Let me make this perfectly clear. My family and I will absolutely positively NEVER buy crap for a F2P game. We will NEVER spend money on in-game items for any game, ever. If a subscription based game starts offering advancement or truly useful items for a real dollar fee, we will cancel.
I think yer missing something......Let me make this perfectly clear :P
If everyone felt the way you do there would be no FTP games because they wouldn't generate any income.
WoW has been around for 5 years and it's the most heavily RMT'd game out there.
I assume you're referring to illegal RMT which is a big difference from a Subs Plus subscription model which is kinda what the original topic is about.
Tho to answer your question I know for a fact that people quit playing MMOs over illegal RMT. It tends to piss people off when someone show up out of the blue with the absolute best gear with all the bells and whistles and beats the crap out of them. Kinda like how people quit games that are bot/hacker filled.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Originally posted by digicakes
Originally posted by Troneas
Originally posted by digicakes
Sorry to break the news to you, but RMT has been around for about 10 years buddy. Don't consider the 50 people that bitch and moan in every RMT article to make up the voice of the entire MMOG player base. Believe what you want, but the majority of players log into their accounts everyday and just have fun playing the game with their friends and don't care about RMT whatsoever.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub?
Yes i would because i will have fun regardless.
1. not on games with a subscription plan; which is what has generated the debate.(existing ones too for that matter).
2. others might not feel the same way you do, which is what the discussion is about.
If you can show me the statistical data then i would love to believe you.
WoW has been around for 5 years and it's the most heavily RMT'd game out there. Its player base is now pushing 13 million and will most likely increase once the expansion is released. I mean really, need i say more?
Instead of asking people if they oppose RMT in MMOGs -- why don't you ask people if they have ever quit playing because of it. Therein you will find the real answer.
This is really out of touch. Everyone actually knows the numbers are extremely high in favor of RMT. It's the fastest growing business model in the world, and still climbing.
WoW is not the most heavily RMT'd. Sony has the most heavily RMT'd(that is also subcription games).
Finding out a number of how many quit playing a game will result in a number that doesn't tell you anything. Whether it is WoW or some cash shop only game, the answer will be tens of thousands or millions higher, as people are always coming and going. It's the current trends you need to look at. The current numbers of Cash shop games being released every year around the country, and so on.
This is a 2 billion dollar a year industry you're talking about. Using my quick and dirty figures from my last post, you're saying that roughly 200k people (20 million x .01) participate in rmt, spending nearly $10,000 per year on rmt (2 billion / 200k). Do you really believe that? You guys continue to prove my point that you gloss over the facts and just make this stuff up as you go.
An estimated 2 billion. How much of that is illegal?
If 10 million of those MMO players paid subscriptions of 15 a month then that 1.8 billion a year. I'm sure if someone sat down and figured it just how much money people spent on subscription fees world wide it would be more than RMT makes. I mean people could be playing all F2P games and just avoid the cash shop but they're choosing to pay subscriptions.
Imagine if tomorrow all the F2P games decided that they were going to start charging 15 bucks a month and keep their cash stores. Would that piss people off? Would people quit those games and refuse to play? It is the mirror image of the situation being discussed in regards to "Subs Plus" subscription models.
Now I got no problem with F2P games that have cash stores that people can blow all their money on. I simply do not play those games. What I have a problem with is a company taking my 15 bucks a month and then asking me to pay for adventure packs and building their game system to promote their cash stores so they can make more money. If people wanna spend hundreds of dollars a year on F2P cash shops so they can get uber gear and save time thats fine. I spend hundreds of dollars a year on my subscriptions so I get all the game content included and I dun have to worry about having to compete against some guy that has a bunch of extra money lying around.
F2P games with cash shops have their place and subscription _only_ games have their place. Subs Plus games do not. And if you're one of those people who doesn't care about RMT or uses RMT then I ask you: "What is wrong with keeping a subscriptions only model? Why is it ok for us to tolerate F2P w/ shops and not ok for you to tolerate Subs only?"
Just an additional thought: a developer once told me that out of a $15 subscription fee, only a third of that goes toward all the actual costs of playing the game, from development, server maintenance, and staffing. The rest, he said, is profit. Think of where that puts RMTs on the list.
Interesting, and thanks for the head's up on that. I always thought it might be something along those lines, but I never imagined that 2/3 of the $15/month subscription fee was profit; they (MMO companies) always make it sound like they make far less profit from the monthly fees. Here I was thinking that my opinion of MTs couldn't get any lower.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Please read the post before yours and tell me how you can say that 99% of the playerbase is against rmt with a straight face?
This is a 2 billion dollar a year industry you're talking about. Using my quick and dirty figures from my last post, you're saying that roughly 200k people (20 million x .01) participate in rmt, spending nearly $10,000 per year on rmt (2 billion / 200k). Do you really believe that?
You guys continue to prove my point that you gloss over the facts and just make this stuff up as you go.
i never said people dont, only that most dont want to, but then feel forced by the games to buy the crap to be able to compete, and the companies are not late to use this, most of them are made by capitalists after all. So they find the main thing the players want and add it in a item shop
I infact know many people that have felt forced to buy money due to the inflation in the games that is created with alot of RMT and felt bad about it. the casual players on these forums arent the ingame shop / rmt targets, its the "hardcore" players.
There is alot of occasions where the RMT sellers go into the game, BUYS all of the crafting materials or other highly wanted items and puts it up for 2-3 times the price.
But this article was more about item shops.
name change/server transfers is fine, but items that will affect the gameplay like adding stats to items, helping you in pvp etc ill never support and i think the people that actually plays the games and dont spend their time on these forums writing crap will agree with me
ill never support any P2P games that also have item shops that affects gameplay
The "free" to play games usually means youll have to pay ALOT otherwise youll only get 1xp instead of 100xp per kill (gold/vip/diamond account etc) or beeing shut out from most of the gameplay (no trading/cant wear best gear)
"Free to play - forever" i see 3 adds here on mmorpg as i type, but none of them are if you want to fully experiance the game.
another game in this genre is business tycoon online where you have to us rl money to be able to buy more stores or train your employees wich the game is all about.
Originally posted by digicakes WoW has been around for 5 years and it's the most heavily RMT'd game out there.
Uh, what? Ever hear of Runes of Magic? Want more bag space? Rent it. Want a mount? Cash shop item. Vanity armor? Cash shop. More than 10 items in your player housing? Rent more space. EXP boosts? Cash shop. Modifying stats on your gear? Cash shop. Items for your player housing? Cash shop. Train up your crafting? Cash shop.
WoW is far, far, FARRRRR from being the most heavily RMTed game out there. Not even in the P2P realm (that probably goes to EQ2) does it come out on top.
Most of us know that the origional idea behind Sub's was for hardware and software support as well as ALL extra content. Then they started getting greedy and charging for large xpac's and now its for tiny ones every year. Then it was card game gambling and finaly RMT shops, whats next they start charging for higher graphics settings or charging for server bandwith ?
We know that a game can be good and make a profit even with out shops or even a freeking monthly sub. Hell in three months of sub's do you get all the content of a new game, nope but you just paid the same or more.
It is just greed and a proof that the company does not care about its customers or its product. Seems all they are doing now is hyping a game for sales then milking it while it dies in a year or two. They dont put any resources back into the game because they are already funding the next pump and dump game.
Ahh the future of MMO's the disposable "Pump & Dump" game .
I seriously had a bunch of stuff to put here, but I'm not suppose to bad mouth WoW for a week or so.
LOTRO - You can play music. It's BEYOND cool if you like that sort of thing. You punch keys for letters and your guy can play anything you can read. I think everyone gets a lute, and bards can do more instruments. A golden violin would be super wicked.
Comments
Exactly. I really can't understand why RMT is so scandolous. No one is forcing you idiots to pay for anything you don't want to. If you are too poor to waste your money on virtual goods and services, then don't. It really is that simple folks.
I couldn't careless if someone pays their way to the top. People need to stop trying to shape the game for everyone else and just play their own game or better yet, just stop playing MMOGs. The amount of drama this topic generates is hilarious.
Microtransactions and RMT is not going anywhere. If you can't accept that go find something else to bitch about or go play a Wii game.
I'm not confused at all. I want P2P games to either avoid RMT completely, or make any item offered for cash to be readily available from performing in game activities that the average player can readily achieve.
F2P games can have whatever cash shop model suits them, as I pretty much steer clear because i don't want to be competitive based on the money I spend.
Now that we've cleared that up, how do we determine who agrees with me, how many there are of us, and then communicate to every MMORPG Developer out there today?
Oops...now there's a problem.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
94% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Subscription games with microtransactions (we're not counting account services here) haven't been around long enough in North America to provide any significant statistics.
Microtransactions internationally are a different story, as the gaming culture overseas (particularly in Asia) is much different in the way they approach spending money in a game.
Exactly. I really can't understand why RMT is so scandolous. No one is forcing you idiots to pay for anything you don't want to. If you are too poor to waste your money on virtual goods and services, then don't. It really is that simple folks.
I couldn't careless if someone pays their way to the top. People need to stop trying to shape the game for everyone else and just play their own game or better yet, just stop playing MMOGs. The amount of drama this topic generates is hilarious.
Microtransactions and RMT is not going anywhere. If you can't accept that go find something else to bitch about or go play a Wii game.
They seem to believe that mmos are competitve games despite the fact that there is no end to the game and you don't win or lose. I have to admit it's always boggled me a bit. You'd think people would be happy to find a cool item they don't need and sell it to some schmuck for $100. Yet they bitch about it. Totally crazy if you ask me lol.
I agree. I will never purchase anything in an item shop. If I am no longer able to advance without making a purchase I will quit and move on to another game.
So what makes Asians so much more likely to spend money on a game as North Americans? I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Back when I played D2 I used to sell items like crazy and none of my customers were from Asia. We're talking thousands of dollars here. Same thing in SWG. Sold 20 million credits for $150 consistently for months, all to North Americans. Obviously, that is only a small sample of the whole, but North Americans buy just as much silly tangible stuff as anywhere else in the world. What would make gaming items any different?
Sorry, I just don't buy this culture argument.
What i wonder is if their research contemplates how much they will cease to make in the long run when their reputation as a MMO company is on the ground.
Or, if the opportunity cost of making more money out of RMT is translated into less monthly subscriptions by those who refuse to get involved in RMT and if it will pay off in the long run.
As you've said, its early days for RMT and so far it has been applied on existing games. I think we'll get a better picture a few months or years down the road.
If this were true, it would end all the "they are a business and need to make money" arguments. I am not saying that it would be wrong for a company to try and increase their profits, as long as it is done by improving their products and services which will naturally result in increased sales; or if they announce their RMT intentions from the get-go and people can decide wheather or not they will buy and play their games.
Now just because people don't participate in rmt doesn't mean they'd ever quit a game over it. Only the most fanatical of the bunch would take something so insignificant to such an extreme. When you take that into consideration, I find it hard for developers to be concerned in any way about the small amount of people who would actually leave their game because of rmt. Furthermore, given the drastic increase of free mmos with cash shop models THAT AREN'T GOING OUT OF BUSINESS, I think that it is abundantly clear just how many people participate in rmt, and have absolutely no problem spending money on a game beyond a subscription.
i never said they would - hence why RMT is successful.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub? or if its run by a company known to do as they please and with a high probability of changing their initial revenue model?
now there's a question.
and saxxon, ive read a few of your points and you replied to mine before i edited it - we are talking about AAA, subscription-based MMO's here; not about F2P games which of course have used RMT for a few years now and nobody complains.
Well you're asking the wrong guy.
I'm sure you've figured out by now that I'm a supporter of rmt. However, you do bring up a very valid question, one I've pondered for some time.
I personally believe yes, that people would buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have rmt, but only if it's a truly good mmo. This has actually been proven to some extent with Cryptic's model (although Cryptic's games being a "good" mmos is slightly debatable!!). However, I do admit that I have bias and thus my opinion in this matter does not hold the weight of an independent observer.
I also admit that I don't even view micro transactions or cash shops as rmt. I consider rmt to be player to player transactions only, just as it is in the station exchange. The more interesting question to me is what would happen if a top quality AAA mmo opened with a station exchange in place. There are of course the other consideration as to whether it is the choice of the player to play on an exchange server or a "pure" non-rmt server. That's where my interest is far more so than in the plethora of f2p cashshop mmos.
(looks like part of my post is a bit insignificant given your edits. but gotta go now hopefully we can discuss later).
Sorry to break the news to you, but RMT has been around for about 10 years buddy. Don't consider the 50 people that bitch and moan in every RMT article to make up the voice of the entire MMOG player base.
Believe what you want, but the majority of players log into their accounts everyday and just have fun playing the game with their friends and don't care about RMT whatsoever.
however, would you buy and commit to a new mmo if they announced it would have RMT and a monthly sub?
Yes i would because i will have fun regardless.
1. not on games with a subscription plan; which is what has generated the debate.(existing ones too for that matter).
2. others might not feel the same way you do, which is what the discussion is about.
As much as I dislike the concept of RMT and wish it gone, this post is 100% correct.
...
1. not on games with a subscription plan; which is what has generated the debate.(existing ones too for that matter).
2. others might not feel the same way you do, which is what the discussion is about.
If you can show me the statistical data then i would love to believe you.
WoW has been around for 5 years and it's the most heavily RMT'd game out there. Its player base is now pushing 13 million and will most likely increase once the expansion is released. I mean really, need i say more?
Instead of asking people if they oppose RMT in MMOGs -- why don't you ask people if they have ever quit playing because of it. Therein you will find the real answer.
Not a fan of microtransactions, but it won't stop me from playing a game if I like it, but do prefer if they have one server with and one without.
Also if they do see the need to have it then, I prefer if they're fluff items, or say extra character slots (as long as subscribers get a reasonable number without buying more).
So what makes Asians so much more likely to spend money on a game as North Americans? I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Back when I played D2 I used to sell items like crazy and none of my customers were from Asia. We're talking thousands of dollars here. Same thing in SWG. Sold 20 million credits for $150 consistently for months, all to North Americans. Obviously, that is only a small sample of the whole, but North Americans buy just as much silly tangible stuff as anywhere else in the world. What would make gaming items any different?
Sorry, I just don't buy this culture argument.
Why not? Remember that in countries like Korea they use very different "subscription" systems and are well known for being very serious about their gaming activities. Do you honestly believe that different gaming cultures around the world all buy, proportionally, the same amount of RMT services? I mean all you really need to do is look at how popular F2P games are in Asia compared to here. You can't tell me they don't spend more than us on RMT.
^Truth^
and honestly its not that we are confused about MTs.... Honestly, I don't think they have ANY place in p2p games, and I can say that until I'm blue in the face. But there will always be lazy people who are willing to pay to get "to the top" faster. And my voice, (and millions of others) will never speak louder than thousands of people spending cash.
Too many people wanting to bring that cheat code mentality into RPGs where it has no business being
The root of all the problems is this mentality.
most F2P games never offer a way to "get to the top" It is all a very fractured and wrong perception. Most players, near 80% never pay in any F2P game, yet they are playing.
It's like the quote I read earlier "I like this game, even though it uses cash-shop". What? really? You honestly feel that F2P games are worse than P2P in general? Then why are you playing F2P games? If the answer is because they are free, then whether it has a cash shop or not should be irrelevant to you.
Only people who play the game as though it has an ultimate never changing end, where they can access all the stuff in the game that has the highest numbers dislike cash shops because they want to use it as a tool to get to this non-existent "top" that they created. They are a very small percentage of gamer types that don't play the games for fun. They don't see the point in buying a chair because it's a chair, they only want it if it adds to them being more powerful. They are also the ones that are spending, and spending the most, and the ones complaining at the same time.
Most people play the games and enjoy them without paying, or like buying a candy bar at the store, every once in a while buy something extra for their own personal game play.
Cash shops do not offer a cheat code type of game play, they offer things that sally may want, and they offer things that billy may.
I do agree their will always be those people that like to cheat and hack and all kinds of things. Those players will exist in all games, regardless of how you pay to play.
Payment options are changing and evolving all the time. I guarantee there will be very different payment options in the future. F2P are much larger in number than subs. The US is the only one who predominantly uses monthly payments. The East, which is a much larger market with many more games, uses other payment options and cash shops.
Some cash shops are better than others, but they are built for your style of game play, and to allow you to pay, pay what you want, and pay at your leisure. The idea that they all offer an imbalance is a conceited ego-centric, and backwards country-centric idea that most players don't subscribe to. Most players are out there right now playing their games and having a blast, and they don't feel they're being short-changed in the slightest, because they know they aren't. They are in control of their emotions, and realize that they can't beat everyone in a sub game or a pay game, and that paying won't make a difference for them, whether they are the one being killed or doing the killing. But mostly they realize that games let you do thousands of things inside them. PvP is just one tiny part.
The power has already been given to the player, they just want to blame someone else when they feel like they need to have more than someone else.
Just One MMOre
I think yer missing something......Let me make this perfectly clear :P
If everyone felt the way you do there would be no FTP games because they wouldn't generate any income.
I assume you're referring to illegal RMT which is a big difference from a Subs Plus subscription model which is kinda what the original topic is about.
Tho to answer your question I know for a fact that people quit playing MMOs over illegal RMT. It tends to piss people off when someone show up out of the blue with the absolute best gear with all the bells and whistles and beats the crap out of them. Kinda like how people quit games that are bot/hacker filled.
1. not on games with a subscription plan; which is what has generated the debate.(existing ones too for that matter).
2. others might not feel the same way you do, which is what the discussion is about.
If you can show me the statistical data then i would love to believe you.
WoW has been around for 5 years and it's the most heavily RMT'd game out there. Its player base is now pushing 13 million and will most likely increase once the expansion is released. I mean really, need i say more?
Instead of asking people if they oppose RMT in MMOGs -- why don't you ask people if they have ever quit playing because of it. Therein you will find the real answer.
This is really out of touch. Everyone actually knows the numbers are extremely high in favor of RMT. It's the fastest growing business model in the world, and still climbing.
WoW is not the most heavily RMT'd. Sony has the most heavily RMT'd(that is also subcription games).
Finding out a number of how many quit playing a game will result in a number that doesn't tell you anything. Whether it is WoW or some cash shop only game, the answer will be tens of thousands or millions higher, as people are always coming and going. It's the current trends you need to look at. The current numbers of Cash shop games being released every year around the country, and so on.
Just One MMOre
This.
An estimated 2 billion. How much of that is illegal?
If 10 million of those MMO players paid subscriptions of 15 a month then that 1.8 billion a year. I'm sure if someone sat down and figured it just how much money people spent on subscription fees world wide it would be more than RMT makes. I mean people could be playing all F2P games and just avoid the cash shop but they're choosing to pay subscriptions.
Imagine if tomorrow all the F2P games decided that they were going to start charging 15 bucks a month and keep their cash stores. Would that piss people off? Would people quit those games and refuse to play? It is the mirror image of the situation being discussed in regards to "Subs Plus" subscription models.
Now I got no problem with F2P games that have cash stores that people can blow all their money on. I simply do not play those games. What I have a problem with is a company taking my 15 bucks a month and then asking me to pay for adventure packs and building their game system to promote their cash stores so they can make more money. If people wanna spend hundreds of dollars a year on F2P cash shops so they can get uber gear and save time thats fine. I spend hundreds of dollars a year on my subscriptions so I get all the game content included and I dun have to worry about having to compete against some guy that has a bunch of extra money lying around.
F2P games with cash shops have their place and subscription _only_ games have their place. Subs Plus games do not. And if you're one of those people who doesn't care about RMT or uses RMT then I ask you: "What is wrong with keeping a subscriptions only model? Why is it ok for us to tolerate F2P w/ shops and not ok for you to tolerate Subs only?"
Interesting, and thanks for the head's up on that. I always thought it might be something along those lines, but I never imagined that 2/3 of the $15/month subscription fee was profit; they (MMO companies) always make it sound like they make far less profit from the monthly fees. Here I was thinking that my opinion of MTs couldn't get any lower.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
i never said people dont, only that most dont want to, but then feel forced by the games to buy the crap to be able to compete, and the companies are not late to use this, most of them are made by capitalists after all. So they find the main thing the players want and add it in a item shop
I infact know many people that have felt forced to buy money due to the inflation in the games that is created with alot of RMT and felt bad about it. the casual players on these forums arent the ingame shop / rmt targets, its the "hardcore" players.
There is alot of occasions where the RMT sellers go into the game, BUYS all of the crafting materials or other highly wanted items and puts it up for 2-3 times the price.
But this article was more about item shops.
name change/server transfers is fine, but items that will affect the gameplay like adding stats to items, helping you in pvp etc ill never support and i think the people that actually plays the games and dont spend their time on these forums writing crap will agree with me
ill never support any P2P games that also have item shops that affects gameplay
The "free" to play games usually means youll have to pay ALOT otherwise youll only get 1xp instead of 100xp per kill (gold/vip/diamond account etc) or beeing shut out from most of the gameplay (no trading/cant wear best gear)
"Free to play - forever" i see 3 adds here on mmorpg as i type, but none of them are if you want to fully experiance the game.
another game in this genre is business tycoon online where you have to us rl money to be able to buy more stores or train your employees wich the game is all about.
Uh, what? Ever hear of Runes of Magic? Want more bag space? Rent it. Want a mount? Cash shop item. Vanity armor? Cash shop. More than 10 items in your player housing? Rent more space. EXP boosts? Cash shop. Modifying stats on your gear? Cash shop. Items for your player housing? Cash shop. Train up your crafting? Cash shop.
WoW is far, far, FARRRRR from being the most heavily RMTed game out there. Not even in the P2P realm (that probably goes to EQ2) does it come out on top.
And standard disclaimer: I'm not ripping on RoM. In fact I made a video pointing out that RoM's model can be cheaper than WoW's for the casual player.
Not just another pretty color.
Most of us know that the origional idea behind Sub's was for hardware and software support as well as ALL extra content. Then they started getting greedy and charging for large xpac's and now its for tiny ones every year. Then it was card game gambling and finaly RMT shops, whats next they start charging for higher graphics settings or charging for server bandwith ?
We know that a game can be good and make a profit even with out shops or even a freeking monthly sub. Hell in three months of sub's do you get all the content of a new game, nope but you just paid the same or more.
It is just greed and a proof that the company does not care about its customers or its product. Seems all they are doing now is hyping a game for sales then milking it while it dies in a year or two. They dont put any resources back into the game because they are already funding the next pump and dump game.
Ahh the future of MMO's the disposable "Pump & Dump" game .
I seriously had a bunch of stuff to put here, but I'm not suppose to bad mouth WoW for a week or so.
LOTRO - You can play music. It's BEYOND cool if you like that sort of thing. You punch keys for letters and your guy can play anything you can read. I think everyone gets a lute, and bards can do more instruments. A golden violin would be super wicked.