Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The terrible truth about console MMOs....
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
They already exist.... on the PC...
Yeah, EQOA and FFXI are traditional MMOs that have been on consoles and failed. Phantasy Star Online and Phantasy Star Universe were multiplayer action RPGs that were sold as MMOs on the Dreamcast, Gamecube, PS2, Xbox and Xbox 360. But if you want to know what a console MMO is all about, you have to play games like Dungeon fighter, Dragonica Online or Mini Fighter Online. Oh, and you also need to play them with a gamepad.
You see, the only real difference between the PC and consoles is the controller. PC games use the keyboard and the mouse while consoles use a gamepad. Normally, when developers want to make a console or arcade style game for the PC, they ignore the mouse as much as possible and just have keyboard controls. If a gamepad isn't supported in the game itself, then gamers use apps like Xpadder, Joy2Key or Pinnacle.
Every time the topic of MMOs on consoles comes up, we hear the same boring arguments:
1) Consoles aren't powerful enough. This one is funny considering that MMOs have been around since 1997 and I'm pretty sure that even the Wii has better specs than the minimum system requirements for Everquest or DAoC.
2) A gamepad isn't sophisticated enough to handle all of the functions needed in an MMORPG. This is also laughable since gamepads worked just great for both the Xbox version of Morrowind and the 360 version of Oblivion. Niether of those games are "dumbed down" by the standards of RPGs.
But many of us are correct that an MMO would have to made differently in order to work on a console. And as you can now see, console style designs have been tried, but console MMOs are all on the PC right now.
SIDE NOTE: Two single player examples of how an MMO might work on consoles.
The .Hack series and....
Comments
Uhh...
Anyway, the simple truth is that the current gen consoles will be more powerful than most PC's for quite some time. If you invest on a console MMO, you can make the graphics and the engine much better. See; FFXIV vs. SW:TOR when it comes to visual looks. The players don't have to invest on high end PC to play the game with good graphics, simply having a PS3 or Xbox 360 is enough.
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I would take issue with your statement that FFXI failed on the PS2. While it's true that most of the player base has migrated to the PC version, that has more to do with the age of the PS2 platform than anything else. When FFXI was first released, PS2 memberships were significant, especially in Japan. I still have FFXI installed on my PS2, as a matter of fact, although I play mostly on the PC. And most people who play on a PC to this day use a PS2-type controller to play (I do), as the mouse controls aren't very good at all.
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Hey EQOA was great on my ps2 and ran a logn time, i would not consider it a fail. FFXI was not bad on a ps2 either. I enjoyed both of these games and i think i had more fun playing them on the ps2 then if i had played them on a pc. it can be done, it just with everyone wanting high end graphics (or at least the main part of the pop.), console mmos wont satisfy the mainstream audience
The MMO being on console allows for the high end graphics. When you make an MMO on a PC, you have to think of the hardware most potential customers are using- and that hardware will be behind the consoles for a long time still.
When you make an MMO for console, you can make the graphics as good as the console allows- because every console owner has a similar hardware available.
While the best PC hardware beats consoles in technology, developers can't make use of that technology because that would leave most potential players in the dust, because only a fraction of players can make use of that technology in the first place.
This is as far as I got, before concluding your post wouldn't be substantial.
How, in what way, in what manner, did FFXI 'fail'? It succeeded at being the first (and only?) MMORPG to successfully offer stable and identical gaming experience cross-platform (of said gaming experience, it was 'complete'). It claimed well over 100,000 in its heyday and sustained through its first few years. Along with EVE online, has remained true-to-form in a post-WoW clone era. It's been successful on its own merits, which were greater than the MMORPG community's at large. It has succeeded even in many ways that aren't as quantifiable as these.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
This is as far as I got, before concluding your post wouldn't be substantial.
How, in what way, in what manner, did FFXI 'fail'? It succeeded at being the first (and only?) MMORPG to successfully offer stable and identical gaming experience cross-platform (of said gaming experience, it was 'complete'). It claimed well over 100,000 in its heyday and sustained through its first few years. Along with EVE online, has remained true-to-form in a post-WoW clone era. It's been successful on its own merits, which were greater than the MMORPG community's at large. It has succeeded even in many ways that aren't as quantifiable as these.
*collects up pojung's data and factual references*
*puts them in a bag and hands the bag to pojung*
You take this back, right now! We'll have none of that around here!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Its becouse the contraols with keyboard and mouse sucks with FFXI and combat is pure console slow and almost turnbased.
FFXI was from beginning made for console in mind, ive played it 3 months its terible game terible.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
And still that terible, terible game had more subscribers than most MMO's that have come out since then, and still has.
Personal opinions are not facts, and every game has bad sides. You just listed the ones in FFXI, but there are some to every game.
exactly who told you eqoa and ff failed? the moment i read that in your post i couldn't take anything else seriously.
Both EqOA and FF were a success on the ps2... eqoa ran for a long time and had a huge fanbase.. i would be able to log in at any time and find a party and tons of people 24/7.. eventually it died down 2-3 years
a fail in my terms would be a game released and literally fall to dirt like AoC
ff didn't fail either.. as everyone knows it ones of the most successful mmo's and when i played it most of its playerbase also played it on the ps2.. and still do.
where in your head did you pull that line of shit from exactly?
a fail would be both AoC and Champions online.. as most of you know they were going to release it on the console.. but guess what, both those games were so damn shitty from the start they couldn't pull it off.
And still that terible, terible game had more subscribers than most MMO's that have come out since then, and still has.
Personal opinions are not facts, and every game has bad sides. You just listed the ones in FFXI, but there are some to every game.
Remove all Asian subscribers from FFXI then go do some recounts. FFXI is not popular at all once you hit the west. Probably no better than WAR or AOC right now.
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
Yet both of those elder scrolls games destroy all mmo combat engines on pc that were ever created.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
Yet both of those elder scrolls games destroy all mmo combat engines on pc that were ever created.
Really now? TES games have great lore and immersive worlds, but their combat reeked from day one. It was extremely limited, repetetive and with no actual death. Not to say, that MMO combat is all that good, but it's still leaps and bounds more tactical. TES combat is "satisfying", sure, but you don't need brains to defeat you oponents.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
Yet both of those elder scrolls games destroy all mmo combat engines on pc that were ever created.
Really now? TES games have great lore and immersive worlds, but their combat reeked from day one. It was extremely limited, repetetive and with no actual death. Not to say, that MMO combat is all that good, but it's still leaps and bounds more tactical. TES combat is "satisfying", sure, but you don't need brains to defeat you oponents.
MMOs are also limited, repetitive and have no actual death. Pve combat in mmos is no more tactical also. Whats so good about hitting tab and turning on auto attack while firing off a handful of abilities?
MMOs are locked in the dark ages. Oblivion has active blocking, dodging, a massive amount of spells that can be tweaked, stealth and all that.
MMOs are great for everything but combat (and storyline) and that's a fact.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
Yet both of those elder scrolls games destroy all mmo combat engines on pc that were ever created.
Really now? TES games have great lore and immersive worlds, but their combat reeked from day one. It was extremely limited, repetetive and with no actual death. Not to say, that MMO combat is all that good, but it's still leaps and bounds more tactical. TES combat is "satisfying", sure, but you don't need brains to defeat you oponents.
MMOs are also limited, repetitive and have no actual death. Pve combat in mmos is no more tactical also. Whats so good about hitting tab and turning on auto attack while firing off a handful of abilities?
MMOs are locked in the dark ages. Oblivion has active blocking, dodging, a massive amount of spells that can be tweaked, stealth and all that.
MMOs are great for everything but combat (and storyline) and that's a fact.
I'm sorry, not "death", but "depth", made a typo there.
Yet the active blocking and dodging in Oblivion is almost useless. I've beaten this game a few times.
PvE combat CAN get a great deal tactical. Problem is, most devs want to keep it really-really easy. Look for FFXI, if you want good PvE combat in an MMO.
I want to add, that Im one of the few people, who doesn't really support FPS combat in MMOs, since when I play RPGs, I tend not to rely on my twitch senses so much, It's just me, though.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
Yet both of those elder scrolls games destroy all mmo combat engines on pc that were ever created.
Really now? TES games have great lore and immersive worlds, but their combat reeked from day one. It was extremely limited, repetetive and with no actual death. Not to say, that MMO combat is all that good, but it's still leaps and bounds more tactical. TES combat is "satisfying", sure, but you don't need brains to defeat you oponents.
MMOs are also limited, repetitive and have no actual death. Pve combat in mmos is no more tactical also. Whats so good about hitting tab and turning on auto attack while firing off a handful of abilities?
MMOs are locked in the dark ages. Oblivion has active blocking, dodging, a massive amount of spells that can be tweaked, stealth and all that.
MMOs are great for everything but combat (and storyline) and that's a fact.
I'm sorry, not "death", but "depth", made a typo there.
Yet the active blocking and dodging in Oblivion is almost useless. I've beaten this game a few times.
PvE combat CAN get a great deal tactical. Problem is, most devs want to keep it really-really easy. Look for FFXI, if you want good PvE combat in an MMO.
I want to add, that Im one of the few people, who doesn't really support FPS combat in MMOs, since when I play RPGs, I tend not to rely on my twitch senses so much, It's just me, though.
If you ever decide to play Oblivion again right before you start go to the option menu and throw that difficulty slider all the way to the right and then let me know if blocking and dodging are useless.
The only time a mmo has depth pve wise is in its co-op content (raids, dungeons) but to put that against oblivion would be unfair since TES IV is a solo pve rpg.
Want a good combat engine in a mmo play DDO.
But even that pales in comparison to single player games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
thanks for the laugh hehe it cant get more dumbed down than those games.
I have to agree. Morrwind's or Oblivion's combat wasn't actually sophisticated. Four directions which to push while trying to swing, one button to cast the spell that was chosen as active etc. OP is just wrong.
Yet both of those elder scrolls games destroy all mmo combat engines on pc that were ever created.
Really now? TES games have great lore and immersive worlds, but their combat reeked from day one. It was extremely limited, repetetive and with no actual death. Not to say, that MMO combat is all that good, but it's still leaps and bounds more tactical. TES combat is "satisfying", sure, but you don't need brains to defeat you oponents.
MMOs are also limited, repetitive and have no actual death. Pve combat in mmos is no more tactical also. Whats so good about hitting tab and turning on auto attack while firing off a handful of abilities?
MMOs are locked in the dark ages. Oblivion has active blocking, dodging, a massive amount of spells that can be tweaked, stealth and all that.
MMOs are great for everything but combat (and storyline) and that's a fact.
I'm sorry, not "death", but "depth", made a typo there.
Yet the active blocking and dodging in Oblivion is almost useless. I've beaten this game a few times.
PvE combat CAN get a great deal tactical. Problem is, most devs want to keep it really-really easy. Look for FFXI, if you want good PvE combat in an MMO.
I want to add, that Im one of the few people, who doesn't really support FPS combat in MMOs, since when I play RPGs, I tend not to rely on my twitch senses so much, It's just me, though.
If you ever decide to play Oblivion again right before you start go to the option menu and throw that difficulty slider all the way to the right and then let me know if blocking and dodging are useless.
The only time a mmo has depth pve wise is in its co-op content (raids, dungeons) but to put that against oblivion would be unfair since TES IV is a solo pve rpg.
Want a good combat engine in a mmo play DDO.
But even that pales in comparison to single player games.
Im a fan of all the tes games but your statement is where part of the issues lie. You should not need to change the difficulty for parts of any game to become relevant.
Back on topic i have no problems with mmo's on consoles as long as i can have more options than just the gamepad for controlls.
I must dissagree with an earlier post of they could be graphically better than a pc one today's $50 to $100 graphics cards outpreform all the consoles. We had higher end graphics cards that were outpreforming the 360 when it launched and we had better ones than the PS3 when it launched. Not every PC mmo needs to run on intergrated graphics.
But if you have one that is both console and pc you have to have either 2 seperate graphics sets or the PC will be stuck at the lower console ones forever as a console is supposed to have a lifetime of 7 to 10 years by then intergrated outpreform them.
I'd mostly agree with that. The "core" of Oblivions combat is fairly active. If you sit still and mash buttons, you won't do so well. But, it does lack depth. No real hit locations, no counter attacks, no criticals, etc. Of course, mods like Deadly Reflexes fix this problem.
But yea, the tactical side of MMO combat has always been over rated. You mash your skill buttons and wait for the dice roll. Now, you mash your skill buttons and watch the cool downs. Not very active and not much room for skilled play.
Evasia, we all know you're a Darkfall enthusiast. You could at least contribute to the discussion if you're coming in here. Trashing a game for being a slower pace is pretty much trolling.
In any case, console MMOs don't fail. The console audience fails to want MMOs. With most console MMOs being aimed at the 360 in recent history (no, Hyanmen, I'm not talking about FFXIV. Please, do not post about how I'm wrong), most people have seen it as "I'm already paying $7 a month for a Gold Account, why should I have to pay more for an online game every month when I could play something more accessible for free?"
FFXI on the PS2 didn't fail. More of its current 500k subs play it on PS2 than on PC. Even more than that play it on 360 (because you aren't required to have a Gold account). How do I know this? I played FFXI. Its community told me so.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
Personal opinions are not facts, and every game has bad sides. You just listed the ones in FFXI, but there are some to every game.
Remove all Asian subscribers from FFXI then go do some recounts. FFXI is not popular at all once you hit the west. Probably no better than WAR or AOC right now.
Because Asian people don't count. And in any case, that is not true; FFXI has historically been split almost evenly between Western and Japanese subscribers, as verified in SE's annual censuses. BTW, Asians (Japanese, actually; FFXI has not been marketed in the East outside Japan) subscribe for the exact same monthly fees as here in the West, so there is no reason to split them out.
It's about 50/50. Just as popular as in the Asia.
It's about 50/50. Just as popular as in the Asia.
And that's still approx 5x more than Darkfall, which Evasia plays, and Evasia's the one that started this chain of nonsense over population.
Just wanted to point that out. =D
However, it is rather amazing. It's far been deemed outdated by most of the 360 crowd and yet it's one of the most popular MMOs currently with the highest American:Asian ratio of any Asian MMO we really know about.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
Failed game indeed. Not to mention the countless people hyped by FF14 that remember the "good ol' times" in XI (even though much of it is nostalgy).. Controls need to be extremely shitty for them to ruin a game completely.. and XI's controls weren't That shitty. They could've been better, but I never found playing with keyboard a problem myself. Had the game featured twitch based gameplay ala WoW then it'd be a different case, but you never needed to have extremely responsive controls to play the game well in the first place.
More people play FFXI on the PC than the PS2 or Xbox 360. I don't know if you can check the sales of the same game on different platforms, but if someone could....
Both FFXI and EQOA were flops by the standards of consoles. Your game can be considered a hit on the PC if you sell 100K copies. On consoles, if you don't break a couple of million copies sold, your studio will probably be shut down in short order. Yes, both games had respectable populations by PC standards, but they were nothing when compared to the Numbers behind Devil May Cry, Halo or Metal Gear Solid.
As for TES games being "Dumbed down," please point me to an RPG with depth that consoles can't handle. Dragon Age? It's on consoles. Baldur's Gate? That came out in 1998 and even a Dreamcast could probably run it. Fallout 3? I'm currently playing it on XBox 360.
No really. Find me a PC RPG that has deeper combat than Final Fantasy Tactics or Star Ocean or Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic.