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MMORPG PVP and why it mostly sucks!
aranha
Member UncommonPosts: 171
Today's MMORPG PVP, RVR issues!
By Aranha
Thought i kick in another post about todays mmorpg's and that we nowadays call "pvp"
PVP?
Alot of people here on mmorpg.com are soul searching for a place to call home with mainly pvp aspects in the game. Sadly the game companies nowadays give us really crappy pvp experience and combat. Some of us look back at some of the old games with pvp that was more about having fun than killing xxxx players to get that shiny armor or weapon.
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Issues?
The biggest issue i think with mmorpg's and pvp nowadays is RVR like WoW, Aion etc etc. RVR feels more like a way to just simplify PVP as a whole. The rules are already set and slaying that guy from the opposite faction will make you take one step closer to that item you want.
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Politics?
But whatever happend to politics and pvping for FUN? Or pvping to show the other clans/guilds/corps who's the boss. Making alliances as a political choice to gain something or to expand into something bigger! Or why just kill that guy becose he pissed you off. Todays RVR games tend to miss the most important part of pvp. Showing who's the boss and who's the bitch!
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Friend or Foe?
EVE & L2 are the games that made me realize how things should be. Even though EVE may be pretty rough for those who tend to stick to industry, mining and pve alliances can be made to offer those nasty pirates something for protection and a better economy. L2 on the other hand is all about power and getting what you want and killing those who tend to cross your pathway to your objective. Its all about politics and doing what will help you out in the longrun.
Choose your foes and choose your friends. It shouldnt be something forced upon you making the whole pvp aspect boring and shallow.
Just to clarify im just using these 2 as exsamles and not a comparison.
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Atleast thats what i think about todays RVR games flooding the market with shallow and boring RVR combat with rewards gained for killing opposite R players.
Killing the bastards should be reward enough! ;D
So did i make a monkey of myself by writing this or does people agree that PVP in MMORPG's are going downhill?
Comments
And that's why most people who played Darkfall are unable to enjoy the PvP of other games.
Before people jump on me, I said "most." :P
I'd have to agree somewhat. The good memories that i have of PvP are of guild rivalries, personal vendettas, fights over key leveling spots escalating into full guild v guild war whether it be for a day or years and occasionally prompting multiple guild to get involved on either side of the disputes . Any of which could happen at any minute during your playing time and aren't restricted to factions.
RvR games try to provide but usually fall short by a fair margin for me and my interest ends up waning rather quickly.
More interesting is that you say 'played'...
Imho, PVP in Darkfall is bad. It is a twitch based FPS with dumb PVP system leaving the game with nothing else but this dumb PVP. The game is overall empty but I guess that is supposed to target specific audience.
If they made CoD Modern Warfare 2 in persistant world with some NPC to grind your skills up, you would get Darkfall just much better done. As it is now, not my cup of tea, though.
I have no idea how you can compare EVE to Lineage...
More interesting is that you say 'played'...
Imho, PVP in Darkfall is bad. It is a twitch based FPS with dumb PVP system leaving the game with nothing else but this dumb PVP. The game is overall empty but I guess that is supposed to target specific audience.
If they made CoD Modern Warfare 2 in persistant world with some NPC to grind your skills up, you would get Darkfall just much better done. As it is now, not my cup of tea, though.
I have no idea how you can compare EVE to Lineage...
'Played' as in "I played Darkfall yesterday. I'm not playing Darkfall now. I will play after I finish responding to this post."
:P
Of course Darkfall's PvP isn't perfect. But it is definitely a departure from the norm. For me, a refreshing departure... that I can't get enough of.
More interesting is that you say 'played'...
Imho, PVP in Darkfall is bad. It is a twitch based FPS with dumb PVP system leaving the game with nothing else but this dumb PVP. The game is overall empty but I guess that is supposed to target specific audience.
If they made CoD Modern Warfare 2 in persistant world with some NPC to grind your skills up, you would get Darkfall just much better done. As it is now, not my cup of tea, though.
I have no idea how you can compare EVE to Lineage...
Im not comparing im making exsamples of politcal driven PVP and reasons why these games are seen upon as successfull pvp games even though everyone may not like em the PVP systems are the best we've seen yet.
And again i have to state that these 2 are just exsample not something i just praise!
I agree with you that taking out the enemy should be rewarding enough but after 4+ years of Lineage 2 pvp (which is a great game with a great pvp system) I have to say it became beyond tiring.
The politics became too personal, it stopped becoming a game for many people and seemed to be more of a playground for many to just be considerablly less than.
Which is a shame becuase there really was a sense of a living landscape within the game.
but when the game ceases to be a game and becomes a place for players who are venting their emotional issues then to me that is not a worthwhile game. to many poisonous people in the world to pay to be around them.
Even if its virtual.
Besides, one can still slay the other team for the sake of it if their minds are in the right place. I'll go out of my way to slay a player in Aion and I don't care for anything beyond the reason to do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
well dofus (just got named dofus 2.0 cus of graphix update) has the best pvp system ( on only one of there servers) of all game.
1 you loose all your items when you die the player that killed you gets them. or if a pve mob killed you the mob will have the items till a player kills the mob then the items will be dropped for the player
2 open pvp evriwhere no restrictions evri1 can kill you.
3 if you die in pve or pvp your character is dead (for real) your char will be deleted and if you want to play again on that extreme server you have to start over. (there are players at maximum lvl on the server seeking each other out to try to kill them to get up in the ranking system.
i quitted playing cus its turn based i dont like it.
i am rly bored of mmos right now that i am downloading aion wich i didnt play before right now lol after al the crap i readed just so i can play one cus i rly like mmos (when they are good!!)
when darkfall came out i got some hope but i dont have a creditcard and cant use paypal for some reason.. they should at paybycash/clickandbuy or wallie card
[/b][quote]Originally posted by Sovrath
I agree with you that taking out the enemy should be rewarding enough but after 4+ years of Lineage 2 pvp (which is a great game with a great pvp system) I have to say it became beyond tiring.
[/b][/quote]
I can't believe you played lineage 2 for 4+ years. I played it for 6 months, quit, and it's the game i regret playing the most of any games i've played. But that was mainly due to the retarded community who ebayed and never admitted it and the stupid NCsoft who said they were fighting bots
In reference to PvP in an MMO, i don't mind open PvP but the whole full loot is ridiculous in my opinion, i'm not spending the majority of my time getting my items back. I do believe there should be a penalty in PvP but not loose all your items unless of course it is done EVE style where things are easy and fairly cheap to replace.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Try Paypal again. It's just $1 for the 1 week Darkfall trial right now after all.
I just switched my payment option from Credit Card to Paypal with no problems.
I do understand that you were probably talking about a level above the gameplay with motivation and player created entities interaction but that applies to any game with PVP imo.
It can be RVR, FFA, arenas, w/e. There will be always competition between clans/guilds/corporations.
Lineage and EVE have so vastly different incentives for PVP that it does not seem right to put them next to each other. But that is just me, nothing wrong with that
Well that's the thing, besides all the issues with the cheaters and those who required medication or counseling, the world was a very live world. the sieges could be incredible and if one was running with a good group the pvp seemed natural and organic.
For the most part I'm a big believer that you get what you put in and that one should approach any of these games as games and really seek to drive to the core of the game play.
There was a sort of "hang time" period where you really felt like you were in a real world of real people with real motivations.
but at the end, besides the horrid economy (I hate making money in games and L2's systems just demanded too much from my patience) I just got fed up with e-thug pk'ers who would take me out when I was leveling, I would then find them, take them out and I would get the crying pm's and just have to deal with all their nonsense.
I remember one guy took me out on Isle of Prayer. I responded with an "ouch babe" and he just left with a " ; ) "
No biggie right?
so I see him a week or so after and he is sort of hanging with another player so I head straight for him and what does he do? He runs away. I couldn't believe it. So I'm firing at him, chasing him, and he doesn't even fire a shot but he is running, essentailly doing whatever he can to get out, I then down him. No biggie granted I'm a bit higher than him but in the before scenario I was just leveling, listening to music when I see several shots hit me. Essentially he got the jump on me and I was wearing my pve S grade so good on him my bad that I wasn't prepared.
But I ran right in his face as he was heading toward his buddy and he runs?
then I get pm's from him crying and insutling me and things like "I hope when I killed you it cost a lot for the blessed rez" etc.
I'm too old for that crap. And if it's just one person no biggie but there just seemed to be a preponderance of these types of people as the years progressed.
In any event, even though there isn't the same sense of world in games like Warhammer or Guild Wars I really enjoyed the pvp in both those games because it felt like it was purely about pvp without the baggage. And I love pvp. But at this stage of my life I just don't have the patience to hear someone crying or listen to the smack talk. If people like that then great, more power to them but I live my life a different way and strive to mitigate drama whenever possible.
In the end it's just got to be a game, nothing more.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I can't believe you played lineage 2 for 4+ years. I played it for 6 months, quit, and it's the game i regret playing the most of any games i've played. But that was mainly due to the retarded community who ebayed and never admitted it and the stupid NCsoft who said they were fighting bots
.
Well that's the thing, besides all the issues with the cheaters and those who required medication or counseling, the world was a very live world. the sieges could be incredible and if one was running with a good group the pvp seemed natural and organic.
For the most part I'm a big believer that you get what you put in and that one should approach any of these games as games and really seek to drive to the core of the game play.
There was a sort of "hang time" period where you really felt like you were in a real world of real people with real motivations.
but at the end, besides the horrid economy (I hate making money in games and L2's systems just demanded too much from my patience) I just got fed up with e-thug pk'ers who would take me out when I was leveling so I would then find them, take them out and I would get the crying pm's and just have to deal with all their nonsense.
I remember one guy took me out on Isle of Prayer. I responded with an "ouch babe" and he just left with a " ; ) "
No biggie right?
so I see him a week or so after and he is sort of hanging with another player so I straight for him and what does he do? He runs away. I couldn't believe it. So I'm firing at him, chasing him, and he doesn't even fire a shot but he is running essentailly doing whatever he can to get out, I then down him. No granted I'm a bit higher than him but in the before scenario I was just leveling, listening to music when I see several shots hit me. Essentially he got the jump on me and I was wearing my pve S grade so good on him my bad.
But I ran right in his face as he was heading toward his buddy and he runs?
then I get pm's from him crying and insutling me and things like "I hope when I killed you it cost a lot for the blessed rez" etc.
I'm too old for that crap. And if it's just one person no biggie but there just seemed to be a preponderance of these types of people as the years progressed.
In any event, even though there isn't the same sense of world in games like Warhammer or Guild Wars I really enjoyed the pvp in both those games because it felt like it was purely about pvp without the baggage. And I love pvp. But at this stage of my life I just don't have the patience to hear someone crying or listen to the smack talk. If people like that then great, more power to them but I live my life a different way and strive to mitigate drama whenever possible.
In the end it's just got to be a game, nothing more.
See, I love the smack talking, i think it's entertaining, what i don't like is people running around as if they are legit when 96% of people weren't. I actually spent time making money in Lineage 2 . . . so stupid, i spent hours scouting geren to buy low and sell high and in the end, what did i get for it . . . nothing, everyone thought i cheated whereas i knew how much effort it took to make money and then every time i tried to level all you saw is bots. The PvP in the game was pretty good but the cost of everything was bad. I also played a gladiator (worst class ever) and i quit when i hit lvl 70 and realized that i get 6% xp per hour leveling at a prime spot and thus i'd waste my time leveling for what purpose? The politics were ok, but EVE politics blows it away.
I do see what you mean though, you should give EVE a try. THe best part is the real time training so if you are abusy like me you don't have to log on and the community is mature. You will be a bit behind but you can have a role early on.
Cryomatrix
p.s. i no longer live in Cambridge anymore, i live in boston on the border of roxbury
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Bit off topic but that's not all bad...
www.paypalsucks.com/
Actually Gladiators become quite bit better higher up. you really need to be about 75+, maybe even hit 79 and then they really shine. I realize that is a long way to go to see your class become exceptional but I have to say I went back and forth several times between gladiator and destroyer for my sub because glad just felt so good.
The thing about Eve is that it seems to be a game where I would have to spend a lot of time not only learning it but also delving deep under the hood. I would agree that the politics of Eve, from an outsiders view, seem to be much deeper. But my sense is that I wouuld want to devote far more time to it then I really should be. Also, and this is on me, I don't tend to warm up to sci-fi mmo's very well. I enjoy watching sci-fi, reading some of it and sci-fi solo games but the mmo's tend to lose my interest. Not that there are many of them.
By roxbury!
uh... hopefully next to the better part of roxbury!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Assuming that player decisions, competition, and skilled play are the focus of the game (and they are, in any truly good PVP game,) the reasons PVP sucks:
The solutions, at a glance, are:
I still think we need to find a separate term for the gankfests-and-slaughters that happen in certain types of "PVP" games. Those games aren't about players fighting players, because most fights will be predetermined slaughters -- they're not about PVP, they're more about Power Accumulation and Exploitation. The battles suck, but the buildup seems interesting to players (well, some players...not me.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As long as I can kill people I could care less either way. I don't care for politics, nor do I care who gets ganked. I get ganked.....I'lll figure it out and YES I will save that toon's name, level cap, get geared and then find and kill him. But that's me.
Getting too old for this $&17!
Axehilt,
i like your comments, one thing to think about it is that one-sided combat is not necessarily a bad thing. One-sided combat can be the result of flexible and shrewd choices by the player. When I played WoW as a hunter, i always had my humanoid scan up and that would allow me to find players of the opposing faction and that allowed me to setup my gank based on how i played the game. I am still shocked that other hunters let themselves get ambushed, as a hunter myself i never got ambushed.
I think that a successful PvP game would have elements of all types of PvP. When i played eve there were times when our tactics lead to their slaughter.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I approve of this post.
I remember in Ultima Online back on the Great Lakes server we used to walk up....haha just kidding
I can't remember the exact time the servers would "not save" and everyone would meet in the Graveyard North of Brit. There were usually some reds that came out and stayed on the Northside of the graveyard. We would throw a dye bucket on the ground and both sides would pick colors red/blue pink/yellow whatever we felt like picking. Now this happened when the servers didn't save so we weren't rewarded with anything, we didn't turn red from PKing if we didn't want too. We just had fun killing each other. Trapping people with horses and the fence was always my favorite. This was the funnest time because everyone had fun and that's was the only reason we did it. Few times it sucked when you could train like 500 rabbits and lag everyone out and it also sucked on rare occasion when the servers did actually save and some people remained red, lol.
I miss those days only cause it was fun, not because I got some ghey ass shoulder pads with skulls and rhinestones that when clicked gives my a buff and turns my mount into a little turtle I mean wtf...
Well it's true that one-sided combat is not necessarily bad, but only when it's the direct result of skill (and really just skill exhibited during or slightly prior to the battle.) In this way battles avoid feeling predetermined, which is the thing that erodes fun gameplay.
If someone is slaughtered because they were outplayed, that's vastly more acceptable than being slaughtered by forces they have zero (or very limited) influence over. In one situation it's your own fault for losing because you made suboptimal decisions. In the other, failure is simply unavoidable.
The situation is improved further if you lose by being outplayed and it's explained to you why you lost. TF2 and Modern Warfare 2's Death Cam feature is exactly that. Basically this helps players understand that their loss was indeed the result of skillful play and not some unavoidable hand of god forced upon them.
Normally I divide game elements into two pools: Skill and Non-Skill Factors. In my last post I presented things slightly differently and you were right to point out that slaughters aren't always bad. A slaughter due to skill discrepency is far more acceptable (although for reasons I pointed out earlier, it's still not optimal...even in competition decided by skill the most interesting and fun matches are the ones between similarly-skilled competitors.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The issue hasnt changed:
Design Decisions based on BALANCE.
Rather than FREEDOM.
Thats how it is because they cant afford one or a group of players destroying the game for other consumers.
Everyone has to be equal, nice and happy, "everyone is a hero" mechanics.
Thats why you dont see "a game where you can show who is the boss", because the 99% of those who are not the boss as soon as they find themself in the low scale of the balance, they whine and quit without even trying.
People cannot face consequences, they do not take responsabilities. They think its a game where everyone can win and everything has to be spoonfed to them.
They would never concede that they are being owned due to the fact that players are different, they always complain about as if they were superior but they blame their characters and the company for having to balance things for them. Wich is impossible, balance is an ilusion.
The solution was invented a decade ago. Stop treating your costumers as criminals.
More interesting is that you say 'played'...
Imho, PVP in Darkfall is bad. It is a twitch based FPS with dumb PVP system leaving the game with nothing else but this dumb PVP. The game is overall empty but I guess that is supposed to target specific audience.
If they made CoD Modern Warfare 2 in persistant world with some NPC to grind your skills up, you would get Darkfall just much better done. As it is now, not my cup of tea, though.
I have no idea how you can compare EVE to Lineage...
'Played' as in "I played Darkfall yesterday. I'm not playing Darkfall now. I will play after I finish responding to this post."
:P
Of course Darkfall's PvP isn't perfect. But it is definitely a departure from the norm. For me, a refreshing departure... that I can't get enough of.
Darkfall's pvp was a lot of fun but I think thats mostly because it was full loot....something that hasn't been put into an mmo in a long time. DF's combat mechanics were ok but I prefer the standard mechanics of targeting and button smashing. Archery was a blast but I hated the magic system. Now if only a wow clone would implement full loot pvp, things could get really interesting.
You might be right but if 99% quit the one super uber guy will be ruling an empty battlefield and pretty soon the game is over.
You might be right but if 99% quit the one super uber guy will be ruling an empty battlefield and pretty soon the game is over.
The thing is, there has to be reasonable balance. Not perfect balance but reasonable.
We all know the posts:
"hey guys, what class in this game is the best at pvp?"
"hey guys, what class in this game pwns everything?"
Or may favorite, the stealth inquiry
"are there areny classes in this game that are considered completely overpowered?"
I also like the posts that ask which classes are best for 1 vs 1 pvp.
If there is no effort made to apply some balance then you are correct, 99% of people will quit.
Of course, one solution is to make the game more like a fps and therefore it is completely up to the player. but there are many players who are not interested in fps type of gameplay. Also, since it does take a particular ability to be good at twitch based combat (not everyone can do it) the market for such a game will be a bit more narrow.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm pretty sure he meant 99% of the people who sucked and cried for balance would quit, not 99% of the playerbase.
Which imo is ok. I'd rather have that than a game with millions of players being pampered by the game developers.
Most Pvp sucks because instead of meaningful Pvp, players are given kill counts and xp which just leads to zone in / rez point / corpse camping. It's nothing to do with the Pvp and everything to do with getting thier numbers up.
Best Pvp I've had was the Weekly SWG Space Fights the players would setup. Someone would set up a scenario and then we'd go at it. No one cared about points or xp's or whatever's, it was all about 'pushing our convoy through' or 'finding the disabled tanker'. You dueled, you clashed, you had tactic's and it was FUN!
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter