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No Jump? Why??

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  • LodenDSGLodenDSG Member Posts: 266

    I love the FF IP; I have yet to play a FF MMO and will give this one a try but I agree in a MMO (non turnbased single avatar focused RPG) I do expect a jump function, will it stop me from playing of course not, didn't stop me from playing GW but it was anoying to have to run around the 3ft tall log as opposed to just hopping over it, in FF there is no jump thats true but its also a tacktical turnbased (typicaly) party focused RPG not an avatar focused action based realtime-ish RPG. In the standalone FF games I expect to be lead along a well crafted and scripted story from start to finish that is what I love about them, I would love the opportunity to freely (or at least more freely) explore any one fo the worlds such as an MMO setting but I have no intrest in playing a massivly multi player linear scripted story (never liked linear multi player stories always played them standalone)

     

    Well Im rambling what I was trying to spit out is as a fan of FF and a player of both standalone and online RPG titles I can tell you that jumping is an expected mechanic by the majority of players, it will diretly and adversly impact the majority of players perseption of the game, that doesn't mean they *have* to add it in just that it will be a point of concern for many gamers. Saying that FF never has jumping though true isnt a valid argument, a FF MMO shouldn't be expected to be any thing like the standalone for a great many reasons.

    image

  • PezDSpencerPezDSpencer Member UncommonPosts: 111
    Originally posted by fanita

     

    You can easily just make mobs reset and when you are unable to be hit by them. To be honest I don't think there's a completely justifiable reason for not including the z-axis in modern games with development technology where it's at.

     

    Z-axis extends forward into space.  Y-axis is up and down. Learn2graph.

    ---
    He said to me, "On your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 4,006
    Originally posted by zinkerz


     

     
    Why would someone want to jump? what good does it do? I'm perfectly fine with square's decision on no jumping.

     

    Because, for some, having the ability to jump is right up there with, you know....walking and running. Seriously, ALL MMOs today should give the player the ability to walk, jog, run, jump and swim underwater. If they don't, then the developers are just being lazy.

     

    I don't care if I can't jump for no real reason, but I should be able to hop over a rock or a small fence for crying out loud.

    FFXIV -1

     

    Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by EricDanie 


    About monsters, there should obviously be caution taken to avoid exploiting of jumping in that way, probably done through a hittable LoS check every few seconds from which the monster will reset and recover health. 

    No offense but I really am tried of mobs Evade bugging in WoW because people needed jumping in the game so very badly.

    What a great design feature!  Now I can die to mobs that I can't hurt!

    Fantastic!

  • BallistaBallista Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     I remember when Jumping was first introduced into MMO's in EQ 1, everyone complained that it took away from immersion and it made the game less real.  This is going from a 2dish game to a fully 3d world and people were still saying that.  They said it constantly when Blizz released their Jump fest known as WoW. 
    I have a resto druid, I jump constantly, I know its fun.  It takes away from depth.  It takes away from game play.
    FFXI's world feels so much more realistic to not see everyone hopping around with the poorly animated jump at to unrealistic heights.  
    I'm sure some of you are old enough to remember when Jumping was considered bad for online games, not a "needed" feature.
    edit: not to mention jumpin STILL TO THIS DAY CAUSES DESYNC!  Don't believe me?  jump out of a void zone in WoW, watch yourself die when you are outside of it but in the air.  Why does it count where you jumped FROM as the location for you to be when you die?   Desync.

     

    I don't know, I have played MMOs since Ultima Online in 1997 (which had no jump and was not 3-D) and I can say I feel WAY more immersed in 3-D games with the x,y,z freedom jump provides. One of my favorite games is City of Heroes, mostly because of Super Jump. It's absolutely a blast.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by Ballista

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     I remember when Jumping was first introduced into MMO's in EQ 1, everyone complained that it took away from immersion and it made the game less real.  This is going from a 2dish game to a fully 3d world and people were still saying that.  They said it constantly when Blizz released their Jump fest known as WoW. 
    I have a resto druid, I jump constantly, I know its fun.  It takes away from depth.  It takes away from game play.
    FFXI's world feels so much more realistic to not see everyone hopping around with the poorly animated jump at to unrealistic heights.  
    I'm sure some of you are old enough to remember when Jumping was considered bad for online games, not a "needed" feature.
    edit: not to mention jumpin STILL TO THIS DAY CAUSES DESYNC!  Don't believe me?  jump out of a void zone in WoW, watch yourself die when you are outside of it but in the air.  Why does it count where you jumped FROM as the location for you to be when you die?   Desync.

     

    I don't know, I have played MMOs since Ultima Online in 1997 (which had no jump and was not 3-D) and I can say I feel WAY more immersed in 3-D games with the x,y,z freedom jump provides. One of my favorite games is City of Heroes, mostly because of Super Jump. It's absolutely a blast.

    I was referencing UO when I said "going from 2dish to 3dish"  UO was my first MMO as well, Played it when it was released in '97, I jumped the boat to EQ with most of them in 99. 

    People complained up and down about Jumping being in EQ.  Especially when they jumped and died and lost exp and all their gear.

    Edit:  Also I'd like to point out a lot more folks in UO were RPGers than the folks who picked up EQ for the hot chick on the front of the box.  (cough cough FPS crowd)

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980
    Originally posted by EricDanie


    NO JUMPING? I'M OUT!
    (just joking, but still, that's a huge con IMO, makes me feel a lack of freedom) 

     

    I would not ever play a game without jump anymore, it feels like having anvils tied to our ankle.

     

    Not much better are virtual walls that limits our movements within very restricted areas or prevent us from climbing slopes. :|

     

    You are an explorer or not...

  • saturn1234saturn1234 Member UncommonPosts: 111

    I agree with the person that said jumping makes combat look really foolish in alot of games.

    I am a much bigger fan of the older Zelda games (N64) approach where you just climb over things that are reasonable.

    If you have free jumping, people are just constantly hopping around everywhere like they are in a first person shooter, and it really breaks immersion.

    Also look at any fantasy style combat in the real world (well not look, but you know what i mean, imagine i guess).  You dont see armored knight hopping around the battlefield.  And jumping rarely gives any kind of tactical advantage except in FPS style games where constant movement of any kind is an advantage.  If people dont have to aim at you (most mmorpgs) then it really doesnt matter.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by EricDanie


    NO JUMPING? I'M OUT!
    (just joking, but still, that's a huge con IMO, makes me feel a lack of freedom) 

     

    I would not ever play a game without jump anymore, it feels like having anvils tied to our ankle.

     

    Not much better are virtual walls that limits our movements within very restricted areas or prevent us from climbing slopes. :|

     

    You are an explorer or not...

     

    Some of the best exploring I've done have been in games without jump.  (UO, FFXI)   Games like WoW just don't have much to "explore"  That and you can just fly over it all now anyway.

  • BallistaBallista Member UncommonPosts: 120

     it feels like having anvils tied to our ankle.


     

    You know that's a really good description of the feeling I get when I play non-jump games. Which for me, does take away a lot of enjoyment and freedom.  

  • jadan2000jadan2000 Member UncommonPosts: 508

    i liek the use of jumping because it feels more natural, but if you have played a ff game before, you know that it in no way hinders you from there excellent gameplay. i did read somewhere that they are considering it though. Jumping really isnt that big of a deal to be honest. but i do also feel like i would like to see some jumping in this game. But if it comes between letting toons jump and something liek player housing, or some great socialization mechanic, then f@%k jumping!

    image

  • BallistaBallista Member UncommonPosts: 120

    OH how about this:

    Even providing a sort of "dodge" ability that makes my character jump a few feet away to avoid an attack would probably help. That's a healthy compromise for the "I hate jump" and "I love jump" thing.  Not quite as much freedom as I would like, but it's something.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655

     I'm confused about the point of this thread, at first I thought you were asking for our opinions on why we thought it was ok to not have jump in a game, now its looking like you just want to tell us that all games should have jump in them or they're not up to par. 

    Thats a fine opinion you have there and I'm sure a lot of folks will agree with you sir, I just don't understand the point of continuing your crusade for jump.   IF SE added jump into FF14 I'm sure they'd do a fantastic job of making it not exploitable and the world would be still amazing even if people spammed space bar during combat and constantly were hoping around town like they were in a hurdling competition.  

    However, If SE thinks their game doesn't need Jump I fully understand why and I don't think it will impair the games play value or its quality at all.  Please consider the developer you are scrutinizing here, they are probably the only company that has made games as long as blizzard that makes MMOs, I've played every Blizzard and Square Enix game that both companies produce.  Both companies are very solid and have a great record for making fun quality games.   I'm sure if you gave 14 a shot you'd like it even if you couldn't jump.

    Please don't discount it just because its lacking a feature that does not effect 95% of your actual game play.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by Ballista


    OH how about this:
    Even providing a sort of "dodge" ability that makes my character jump a few feet away to avoid an attack would probably help. That's a healthy compromise for the "I hate jump" and "I love jump" thing.  Not quite as much freedom as I would like, but it's something.

    As in a skill you use to make your character jump and it can be used out of combat for fun or in combat for function? 

    I like it.

  • vmopedvmoped Member Posts: 1,708

    I do find it funny that FF games do not let you jump, yet in alot of the cut scenes your characters are jumping. I suppose in the FF universe you can only jump when you character has a camera rolling nearby.

    Cheers!

    MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  • BallistaBallista Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     I'm confused about the point of this thread, at first I thought you were asking for our opinions on why we thought it was ok to not have jump in a game, now its looking like you just want to tell us that all games should have jump in them or they're not up to par. 
    Thats a fine opinion you have there and I'm sure a lot of folks will agree with you sir, I just don't understand the point of continuing your crusade for jump.   IF SE added jump into FF14 I'm sure they'd do a fantastic job of making it not exploitable and the world would be still amazing even if people spammed space bar during combat and constantly were hoping around town like they were in a hurdling competition.  
    However, If SE thinks their game doesn't need Jump I fully understand why and I don't think it will impair the games play value or its quality at all.  Please consider the developer you are scrutinizing here, they are probably the only company that has made games as long as blizzard that makes MMOs, I've played every Blizzard and Square Enix game that both companies produce.  Both companies are very solid and have a great record for making fun quality games.   I'm sure if you gave 14 a shot you'd like it even if you couldn't jump.
    Please don't discount it just because its lacking a feature that does not effect 95% of your actual game play.

     

    My original question was basically getting at Why did SE not include jump, having stated I have not played FFXI. most people replied "because that's the way it is in the FF series."

    Then I started thinking that I don't think that's a good concept for a game developer when making a "competitive next-gen MMO" and I provided reasons why I think jump has been valuable and enjoyable in my gameplay experience.

    The point of the thread was to ask that question, and perhaps start a healthy discussion. Also I'm not a sir, but no worries.

  • ZarkanarZarkanar Member Posts: 55
    Originally posted by jadan2000


    i liek the use of jumping because it feels more natural, but if you have played a ff game before, you know that it in no way hinders you from there excellent gameplay. i did read somewhere that they are considering it though. Jumping really isnt that big of a deal to be honest. but i do also feel like i would like to see some jumping in this game. But if it comes between letting toons jump and something liek player housing, or some great socialization mechanic, then f@%k jumping!

     

    Great gameplay is being tied to the ground, basically on rails throughout the entire game? What happened to MMORPGS creating WORLDS that you could immerse yourself in, giving you the feeling you can do things you cant in the real world? Face it, this games "great gameplay" as you call it isn't even trying JUMPING, so how innovative and fresh could this game possibly be? It's FFXI all over again, just shinier.

    LOL SQUARE ENIX CAN DRAW PRETTY PICTURES FOR YOU TO PLAY, too bad they're flat with no physics...

     

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  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by vmoped


    I do find it funny that FF games do not let you jump, yet in alot of the cut scenes your characters are jumping. I suppose in the FF universe you can only jump when you character has a camera rolling nearby.
    Cheers!

    Lots of cut scenes in games have your characters doing things you can't do, like Driving, or fishing.  

    I remember in some games like Devil May Cry 1 Dante gets impaled through the chest with his sword and literally pushes him self through the entire thing without taking any "damage"  yet in the actual game any time something hits you, you lose health.

    Cut scenes rarely have to reflect the actual game play, look at the ads for most F2P games, they don't reflect actual game play at all.

  • LodenDSGLodenDSG Member Posts: 266
    Originally posted by PezDSpencer

    Originally posted by fanita

     

    You can easily just make mobs reset and when you are unable to be hit by them. To be honest I don't think there's a completely justifiable reason for not including the z-axis in modern games with development technology where it's at.

     

    Z-axis extends forward into space.  Y-axis is up and down. Learn2graph.



     

    True for the graphics artist and graphics programmer but when an average gamer talks about good use of the Z-plane he means to say the region is not flat and boring but has good use of the vertical and depending on how I choose to set it up I can make X up and down and Z left and right just to mess you assume people up (there is more than left or right handed since it’s the programmer that makes it more than an arbitrary label)

    image

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by Ballista 
    The point of the thread was to ask that question, and perhaps start a healthy discussion. Also I'm not a sir, but no worries.

    Pardon my rudeness m'am!

    To sum up my view point, to jump or not to jump generally depends on the actual game, I have played games where I wished I could jump in them, I've played  games where I wish poeple would STOP FREAKIN JUMPIN!!!

    I'm sure many people have similar experiences,  I just feel that if a game is done right you don't need certain features, its a design choice like to have exp loss or to have repair costs.  (FFXI vs FFXIV)   

    A lot of folks will complain that the age of exploration in MMO's ended with the introduction of "portals" to main stream MMO's however some will say that they were tired of taking an hour to get to a spot just to be able to fish or harvest or hunt.  

    Design choices turn some people off and make some people happy.  I think if you give the game a shot you might find yourself on the other side of the "fence" when you find yourself enjoying it despite what you may consider a design flaw.

    Happy gaming ^,^

  • BallistaBallista Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    Originally posted by vmoped


    I do find it funny that FF games do not let you jump, yet in alot of the cut scenes your characters are jumping. I suppose in the FF universe you can only jump when you character has a camera rolling nearby.
    Cheers!

    Lots of cut scenes in games have your characters doing things you can't do, like Driving, or fishing.  

    I remember in some games like Devil May Cry 1 Dante gets impaled through the chest with his sword and literally pushes him self through the entire thing without taking any "damage"  yet in the actual game any time something hits you, you lose health.

    Cut scenes rarely have to reflect the actual game play, look at the ads for most F2P games, they don't reflect actual game play at all.

     

    I think his or her statement speaks volumes though. Cut scenes can be entertaining, dynamic, and action packed. That sort of fast paced mobility is fun to watch. It's also fun to perform!

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,065

    I wouldn't toss out playing a game for not having jumping, but I'm not going to lie, I really like to jump in games.

    I keep trying to get CCP to add it into EVE but they just aren't buying it.  (they seem to think warping to jump is sufficent)

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  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,655
    Originally posted by Ballista

    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    Originally posted by vmoped


    I do find it funny that FF games do not let you jump, yet in alot of the cut scenes your characters are jumping. I suppose in the FF universe you can only jump when you character has a camera rolling nearby.
    Cheers!

    Lots of cut scenes in games have your characters doing things you can't do, like Driving, or fishing.  

    I remember in some games like Devil May Cry 1 Dante gets impaled through the chest with his sword and literally pushes him self through the entire thing without taking any "damage"  yet in the actual game any time something hits you, you lose health.

    Cut scenes rarely have to reflect the actual game play, look at the ads for most F2P games, they don't reflect actual game play at all.

     

    I think his or her statement speaks volumes though. Cut scenes can be entertaining, dynamic, and action packed. That sort of fast paced mobility is fun to watch. It's also fun to perform!

    Oh I agree entirely that fast paced action is fun!

    So is chess!

    Each game has its time and its place, I don't ALWAYS want to play chess, I don't ALWAYS want to play Halo or WoW or some Devil may cry / Gods of War type game.  

    I don't know if the game will be slower paced because they haven't really released much information on the actual game yet, however they did say they wanted the pace of the combat to be faster than 11, which I consider a good thing as most people didn't have the patience to play 11.

    Will not jumping take away from the faced paced action feel?  I'm not sure we'd have to see the game being played in a state further along than alpha.  Perhaps a lot of the skills you use are flashy and make your character do a lot of footwork.  I feel it is too early to decide if Jumping will take away or add to this games play quality.

     

  • patrikd23patrikd23 Member UncommonPosts: 1,155

    NO JUMPING? I am out too.

  • BallistaBallista Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Originally posted by Kyleran


    I wouldn't toss out playing a game for not having jumping, but I'm not going to lie, I really like to jump in games.
    I keep trying to get CCP to add it into EVE but they just aren't buying it.

     

    Yeah perhaps I should amend my original post. I'm not entirely giving up on trying FFXIV, but I have to say looking at this and TERA Online, TERA provides not only "dodge" skills but also jumping (jumping was originally not included but added due to massive player request after the first Closed Beta Test). I think those two elements alone are very appealing for game selection if you can eventually only play one game.

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