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The grind is fine. The way the grind happens is not.
I've seen a lot of topics regarding the grind in this game and there are pretty strong cases on both sides. However, I feel the argument is being brought up wrong. You're essentially comparing apples to oranges in which people are seemingly forced to pick sides on whether the grind is fine or the grind is too much. Allow me to re-shape the discussion.
The grind in Darkfall is definitely a tough pill to swallow. However, crushing it into your apple sauce so you it doesnt hurt your sensitive throat isn't the answer.
Character progression is a way of life in MMO's, and overall stat/skill levels as opposed to sheer level-based character progression is the same chocolate in a different heart-shaped box. In many ways I see the overall grind time to be similar to games of the past such as EverQuest. Hell, I remember grinding 8-10 hours a day for weeks just to get from 59-60 in EQ. If you were to melt it all down to the sheer amount of time needed, I'd say it's relatively the same.
The grind needs to be there. It gives people a sense of accomplishment and drives them to continue playing and enjoy the game. People in MMO's specifically need something to work toward and character progression is probably one of the most gratifying sources of that. The grind is also tailored to how you want to play. You can focus on one of 3 main types of combat (melee, archery, magic) and allows a significant amount of freedom. There is no "see you at the next level where you get abilities A/B/C and spells 1/2/3" The essence of the grind in this game is right.
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What isn't right about this game's grind is the way it happens. In a full loot, look-over-your-shoulder-and-turn-the-sound-up paranoia PvP game, players are constantly secluding themselves in heavily fortified city caves. In order to safely macro their characters' skills they choose to completely alienate themselves in order to ensure the safest environments. I've heard arguments that macroing is not essential to becoming competitive in this game...and they're right. It's not essential. But people need to understand that it will take a very long time to close the gap against veterans without macroing. It will take even longer due to the inherent risk you are taking by going out into the world and taking on 360 degrees of vulnerability.
The vast majority of people in the game macro while: eating, sleeping, at work, showering, living in real life. What? Why? And I don't ask the question why in terms of "why do people do it?" because we all already know why. In a competitive, PVP-BASED game, people always want to be the best. *Attended* macroing is legal in this game, but unattended macroing results in a kick, nothing more. This means that the competitive, driven people will never stop macroing. And for those not macroing while they are AFK; they are widening the gap for themselves which is already SEVERE at beginning stages of the game.
The grind should happen in-game while completely immersed in the world and environment with all of the other players. Not secluded away in a cave macroing, or setting up your script and hitting "run" before going off to La La Land. And as long as there is a hardcore, unforgiving PvP world waiting outside city gates combined with a large disparity between new players and veterans there will be this misplaced grind in Darkfall.
TLDR;
The grind is fine. The way the grind happens is not.
Thanks for reading.
Comments
A well written post.
I might add that intelligent players take advantage of the accelerated skill gains in PVE, and do so in GROUPS to prevent ganking. Not only are you having a lot more fun this way, but you're also gaining skills faster, and collecting loot.
Yes, some people macro in their cities. At at 3 AM before bed, people like me hop into their cities and farm them for their regs. Eventually they either learn that macroing is LAME, or they continue to be my ammunition supply until they run out of gold and regs.
Let me add to this: I have NEVER macroed in Darkfall. I have never been part of a rigor pyramid (back when they existed), never bugged out a mob, never exploited. I refuse to cheat in games, instead preferring to play them as the developers intended, to maximise my fun....this holds true for MMORPGs, other online games, and single player games as well. Becaue of how much harder I have to work, when the action happens, I know what I'm doing.
These guys who macro up their skills typically suck in a fight.....they have all these skills, and no IDEA how to use them. They wouldn't know about the alternative uses for shrapnel and stormblast, for example. How far to lead at what distance with which spell....how to account for gravity at range. How to use double-jump and whirlwind to wreck the Hell out of someone's back in a melee fight.
Their characters may be developed, but they've denied themselves the EXPERIENCE, and therefore the player skill, that make a HUGE difference.
So, macroers are fine by me.....they are a source of regs, and a source of entertainment.
Enjoyed the post. I'm quite new to DFO. Before trying the game, if you explained the whole mechanics of skilling up, and the grinds necessary to do so to me, i'd have likely found my self uninterested. But for reasons i can't explain, i'm really digging the crazy grinds. I'm just loving this game altogether. Anyways, i have not, and will not macro. I intend to experience the game without cutting corners, even if it means i'm going to be a slow progressing, gimped newb for a long while.
People elect to macro every second they aren't playing precisely because they know that the grind would be incredibly difficult if they did not. The only way to stop them from doing this is to reduce the grind... which defeats your whole argument. Unless you have a better idea... perhaps I missed it in your original post OP?
People will always take the road less traveled.
Since DF is a ffa game its obvious that people will hide tucked away and macro skills or just try to stay safe.
This is why im trying to get away from ffa games. If DF had a similar system to Eve (empire space) people would macro less.
Don't get me wrong I enjoyed Darkfall I just understand why people do it considering how unforgiving the game is.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Or, they want higher stats while they sleep effectively killing two birds with one stone. It has nothing to do with a grind.
how about taking away macros? Or at least certain macro commands instead?
That aside, as another skill based game example, Ultima Online might not be as steep to skill up as DF, but macros (afk) are used there as well to increase skills. Nobody seems to have complained too much about UO. But maybe the game is too old and noone remembers unless they were there from the start.
This is exactly what I have done, and I will say I have 100 daggers and decent dagger mastery, all my archery masteries in the 90's and some mid level magic. My stats are in the 50's. My swimming is at 77. I have enjoyed the game every single time I've played it because I refuse to play it in a way that is boring.
The grind is only there because of the mindset of players, if they played for the moment the grind would be gone.But thats not the way we are brought up in modern society is it? Whats that quote about wealth being the transferral of cash from the impatient to the patient.
cheers to anyone that realises they are in total control of whether there is a grind for them or not
the rest of you, well you make your own beds
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
plain and simple I wish macros wernt in the game, hotkeys are fine, macros are not
Guy right above me is totaly on the money
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
This isn't how I thought this thread was going to go.
Am I the only person who would like to see a FFA full loot PVP game where the way to advance your character is killing other players and not through endless PVE grinding? I mean, its ok if a game has PVE for those who enjoy skilling up this way (I do actually) but it would be nice to be able to earn as much or more killing other players.
Trick is, how do you balance it so it isn't huge gankfest on the lesser skilled player. I've got some ideas on that but they are way outside what current game design is.
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What grind ?
Importance of damage output is :
skill mastery > weapon rank > resistance on armor > twitch skill > stat
So make sure you post the lvl of your mastery the weapon and what armor you wear if you complain about the grind.
Access to all weapons and all armor everyone has at day 1 btw and skill mastery is possible 1 at least 2 months even with casual playstyle.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Bingo.
Couldn't agree more with this post, cheers right back at you.
The game used to be like this, but players wouldn't stop "Bloodwalling" so things needed to be changed. Human nature always gets in the way of fun.
Not true, the GM's have been strictly enforcing this a ton lately. They visit player cities at least once a day and ban everyone macroing. First it's a day, then a week, then bank wipe.
Good luck to new players looking to catch up in stats with vets who were allowed to macro for a year before this enforcement started.
Not true, the GM's have been strictly enforcing this a ton lately. They visit player cities at least once a day and ban everyone macroing. First it's a day, then a week, then bank wipe.
Good luck to new players looking to catch up in stats with vets who were allowed to macro for a year before this enforcement started.
I am in a guild where multiple people have gotten kicked for AFK macroing/swimming up to 5 times a week. None have received more discipline than a kick.
AFK Running or Swimming is not AFK Macroing.
They are banning for macroing, just ask around, a lot of pissed people.
Haha
When a game is so punishing that your own players would rather macro their way to the top instead of actually playing the game, then you have a lack of communication between the developers and players somewhere.
Banning people won't fix the issue; obviously. That just compounds the problem and frustrates players who see the grind as a hurdle too high to jump.
I think some compromise is in order, but I'll leave that up to someone more familiar with the game to decide.
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QFT!!! Say what you want too, boil me in oil, LOL all you want. This is not a sandbox! You get pwnd you are going to PVE no way around it, and PVP players will always want to stop you. This is a very simple and effective system, but it is not a robust sandbox with a great future.
you are mixing 2 concepts you little n00b
you get kicked from the server if u are AFk running or afk swimming this is not considered macro because you dont have any keyboard button active but if u sprint then u have to press the sprint button and that means u are using a macro or u put something on the sprint key and u get a ban
BestSigEver :P
The question is: what would be a better way for the grind to happen?
A game where people rather macro than play doesn't seem very much fun.
any game where the advanced in game is based on time spend in game ppl will try to advance in said game when they are sleeping working or at school this is pretty obvious for anyone that have a decent IQ level
BestSigEver :P
A fair and difficult question. PVE can only provide a means to improve ones character and not do it directly. Now what you have is an online achievement system that is activated by grinding. Why not just have the achievements happen over time without the grind. All online, similar to ageing. It's basically whats happening now.
People need to be free to do other things and those things need to impact growth the way grinding does now (In fact in more complex ways), combined with time played in game.
Just my 2 cent's, trying to answer a difficult question.
The problem with this is that people will set up bloodwalls (where people just hit/kill their friends/alts, rince/repeat) which is actually how people skilled up apparently before they boosted skillups from PVE. That's an even dumber grind because you aren't even having to combat AI when you're doing it. Then of course as you mentioned it would put new players at a big disadvantage.
If they could work around those problems then yes it would be better.
The problem with this is that people will set up bloodwalls (where people just hit/kill their friends/alts, rince/repeat) which is actually how people skilled up apparently before they boosted skillups from PVE. That's an even dumber grind because you aren't even having to combat AI when you're doing it. Then of course as you mentioned it would put new players at a big disadvantage.
If they could work around those problems then yes it would be better.
Absolutely these.
The game initially was designed and launched with PvP gains equal to PvE gains and the ability to sparring with friends was even advertised as feature but then people stoped to go "outside". Others who did play the game had it difficult to find encounters and missing the realistic feel of actually "hunt" PvP.
@Kyleran did you tried the trial yet ? i am intrested in your ideas how you would ovoid that situation. People are able to bypass any mechanic if they wanted (like with bloodwalls)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)