Everquest Online Advenures Eve Online Planetside Star Wars Galaxies Second Life Final Fantasy XI
2004
Runescape City of Heroes Lineage 2 Ryzom Everquest II World of Warcraft
2005
Guild Wars City of Villains
2006
Dungeons and Dragons Onlin Guild Wars Factions Phantasy Star Universe Guild Wars Nightfall
2007
Vanguard, Saga of Heroes Lord of the Rings Online
2008
Pirates of the Burning Sea Age of Conan Warhammer
2009
Darkfall Chronicles of Spellborn Champions Online
2010
Star Trek Online
Now consider, discussions of those games (hype) were likely started taking place roughly 2 years before actual release. And then factor in the games that never got realized like Gods And Heroes and the Original Star Trek, some games that are fading away like The Agency as well as those that got shut down like The Sims Online and Tabula Rasa. My point is that most of the conversation fodder really took place a few years back and there has't been a whole lot leading up to late 2009 and 2010 in the way of The Next Big Thing Yes, people talked alot about Star Trek but no one christened it a WoW Killer. Sure there's been controversy in the swg and darkfall forums but that has even fizzled. At this point, it seems like the only sustainable conversation topic, if you can call it that, is speculation on SW:ToR. And for an mmo site that is focused on community, since serving up the news isn't too unique and, in some cases not even the preferred site, the lack of stuff to talkabout in the industry could be taking its toll. In that respect, I do give mmorpg.com credit for pushing out far more articles and commentaries on the state of the industry. Unfortunately, they seem to be a bit shallow at times, often too short and occasionally downright poorly written and unsubstantiated. If this is to be the new focus of mmorpg.com to retain its community, then it really needs to set the bar higher. ....edited for spelling and hyperlink
I agree. And how can we review games here, if the mods ban you for giving a game a bad review?
Money talks.. BS walks (on in certain cases gets banned).. lol Websites that don't charge a fee make their money on Adverts.. Normally pro-rated according to "hits" or visits.. If a website is too critical in reviews, editorials and forums you'll end up Devs no longer giving perks to those very websites, like closed beta invites, interviews etc. etc. Without the co-op of the Dev's the website will start to lose viewer interest.. It is viewer interest that pays the bills, not the gaming companies.. However the Devs know that if they cut off the website, it could cause some drama within the economics and inner circles..
It's a very very fine line between ass kissing to devs, at the same time the devs NEED those websites as well to hype and sell their products.. This is just like Washington DC with all the bullshit politics that goes on.. One thing that is certain, is that we the viewers are often the ones that pay the price for their little dance.. Personally, I have no respect for devs or websites that thrust their crap on us and expect us to say "thank you"..
There are other forms of entertainment out there that I'm enjoying.. I currently do not play a MMO, because I'm burned out on most, and others are just a silly grind.. Sad part is that nothing has caught my eye down the road..
Just to add my 2 cents, I barely visit MMORPG.com anymore because the economy is THAT bad. I don't have the finances to play MMOs anymore. Hard to visit a website I love and see so many games I want to play when I am essentially broke.
Honestly, dead? No...in more than a bit of a slump? Yeppers... I think they have lost a few key columnists/writers and made some bad editorial decisions lately which has been reflected in less forum attention/discussion and some old timers leaving/ghosting/posting a lot less. I could be wrong, but I certainly feel like the quality of articles has gone downhill drastically since I joined...I mean really, "feature" articles that summarize forum threads?? I hope it turns around...but we'll see.
Could be that MMOs being in a slump put the MMORPG website in a slump...just sayin.
Just to add my 2 cents, I barely visit MMORPG.com anymore because the economy is THAT bad. I don't have the finances to play MMOs anymore. Hard to visit a website I love and see so many games I want to play when I am essentially broke.
Ditto this for me. I do visit and look around, but finances are in such dire straits right now that the concept of spending money on entertainment takes a back seat to house payment and groceries. I don't think MMORPG.com is dead so much as the industry is hurting in general.
If it wasn't for Mozilla Firefox and Adblock I would not visit mmorpg.com anymore. I visit daily, contribute quite a bit and usually enjoy myself so that would be a pity if Adblock stopped working somehow. When I come to the site on another computer and see the advertising I'm shocked by it. Some of it is terrible (I think it was an Evony add that made me look for something like Adblock). Almost all of it is distracting and makes the real website hard to see and access. It is great to read there is a disconnect between the people creating the content and those running the advertising business side of it because honestly, the advertising is kind of creepy.
I agree with others that mmorpg.com should (and is in an ideal position to!) shake things up and take up the mantle of MMO gamer advocate and really take some of the industry to task on what is currently going on. I almost bought STO because of the coverage that that game had here. The coverage was extensive and had quite a positive feeling to it; there was a feeling of anticipation and a defense of the overall design gaps people were already pointing out, e.g. the lack of diplomacy in the game given the IP. Fortunately I was patient and waited to see what would happen. I read why some people were very unhappy with it on various forums, I read about parallel issues with Champions Online and made a decision to at least wait for a free trial. I think that was a very good decision, and it happened in spite of mmorpg.com rather than because of it.
I think mmorpg.com could introduce a new kind of rating that would seek to protect the gamer, based partly on the history of customer satisfaction with the companies involved, partly on some objective measures for the game at hand (for example an indicator of the gap between what is promised and what has actually been demonstrated to be in the game) and partly on the degree to which you can try the game before paying anything. The rating should be completely transparent and carefully thought through. It should be updated when things change. I imagine it will be slightly different for F2P games. At least give it a go. Maybe it cannot be done in a fair and transparent way, but it would be good to see an attempt.
Originally posted by AgtSmith I think a big, big, big par of this is that the developers have been 'gaming' gamers for years now releasing games they know full well are not finished all the while promising the moon. With no third party to confront them on these practices gamers feel they have no voice and frustration builds and I think, ultimately, they are harder on games than they otherwise might be. If an MMORPG.com took a reasonable editorial position of advocating for gamers or at least being a solidly independent third party with as much responsibility to question developers as to pass on their information then things would be different. Not only would the frustration of gamers be eased a bit but developers would not be so apt to launch unfinished games knowing the gaming press would call them for it, at least in part. But with developers having no fear of a third party calling them out for the recent bad practices they just keep doing it, and they get rewarded by sites like MMORPG.com serving as their marketing mouthpieces.
I do not completely object to either of your responses to my post. However, I do not see how we as gamers could feel that we have no voice. After all, we are the ones who buy the games and chose to play/continue subscribing. You say we are ultimately being harder on games than we otherwise might be. Here are we not using our voice? Negative discussions swirling through the community do not do well for the game.
Of course, your point is that our voices are moot because developers are continually getting away with the crap that we are trying to speak against. I do not think they are completely getting away with it. How many games have failed in the last couple of years? Sure, the publisher's pocket a few retail sales (as little as those amount to in comparison to the investment made into the development) but when everyone realizes the game is incomplete or lacking numerous promises, we leave. And spread the word.
I just feel that these actions are our voice, and they are quite powerful. With your suggestion, we would be in an even more powerful situation and so I agree with you that the interviewers should represent us better. We should expect, though, developers will not do interviews that are potentially going to put them on the spot and make them look bad. I guess that just takes away from their media attention, really, which is also bad.
Yeesh, what happened to this genre? Too capitalistic in a sense I guess...
The whole genre have been somewhat stale the last few years and that does reflect the sites about MMOs also. Several interesting and new thinking game will however launch next year and I am sure that we also will see new players here after that.
As for the guy who posted the game list year by year: I agree but Guildwars launched autumn 2004, not 2005.
Of course is it also the possibility that MMOs will die of with Wow but I knda doubt that, massive online games are something that fits todays facebook and twitter world and as soon as a good enough game comes out will the MMO players start to increase again. The problem so far is just that the last few years have we only gotten crap or games with little content and loads of bugs. That wont last forever.
Originally posted by AgtSmith I think a big, big, big par of this is that the developers have been 'gaming' gamers for years now releasing games they know full well are not finished all the while promising the moon. With no third party to confront them on these practices gamers feel they have no voice and frustration builds and I think, ultimately, they are harder on games than they otherwise might be. If an MMORPG.com took a reasonable editorial position of advocating for gamers or at least being a solidly independent third party with as much responsibility to question developers as to pass on their information then things would be different. Not only would the frustration of gamers be eased a bit but developers would not be so apt to launch unfinished games knowing the gaming press would call them for it, at least in part. But with developers having no fear of a third party calling them out for the recent bad practices they just keep doing it, and they get rewarded by sites like MMORPG.com serving as their marketing mouthpieces.
I do not completely object to either of your responses to my post. However, I do not see how we as gamers could feel that we have no voice. After all, we are the ones who buy the games and chose to play/continue subscribing. You say we are ultimately being harder on games than we otherwise might be. Here are we not using our voice? Negative discussions swirling through the community do not do well for the game.
Of course, your point is that our voices are moot because developers are continually getting away with the crap that we are trying to speak against. I do not think they are completely getting away with it. How many games have failed in the last couple of years? Sure, the publisher's pocket a few retail sales (as little as those amount to in comparison to the investment made into the development) but when everyone realizes the game is incomplete or lacking numerous promises, we leave. And spread the word.
I just feel that these actions are our voice, and they are quite powerful. With your suggestion, we would be in an even more powerful situation and so I agree with you that the interviewers should represent us better. We should expect, though, developers will not do interviews that are potentially going to put them on the spot and make them look bad. I guess that just takes away from their media attention, really, which is also bad.
Yeesh, what happened to this genre? Too capitalistic in a sense I guess...
You are correct, gamers have a voice - their wallets. The problem with that being our voice is that the developers seem to have arranged their strategies around the push to live, to selling boxes, even if that means subs suffer early. Yes, we get a voice but short of spending a big chunk of change based on over promising and under delivering we are not in a position to exercise that voice. What I think a site like MMORPG.com could be doing, and should be doing, is holding these developers to account for the things they put out as marketing hype and promises. A good example, not to interject something controversial, is Champions Online and Star Trek Online. CO clearly launched in an incomplete state with major content issues, I think few would argue that assessment. So why did a site like MMORPG.com not press Crytpic on their STO releases and interviews and hype about how Champion's was handled, especially since in STO you had an even bigger IP with shorter development? At a minimum MMORPG.com should have had all their 'coverage' bringing up the issue that just a few months before the same developer had major issues with a title that was rushed and content starved and they should have posed some tough questions to Crytpic about the seemingly, and now apparent, repeat with STO. I am not saying they should trash Cryptic or CO/STO, but they shouldn't have allowed Crytpic to push out their marketing hype on the site without answering tough questions about the way they handled their last launch and if they wouldn't answer the questions the subject should have been noted in any coverage. Again, not trying to argue CO/STO here - just trying to offer an example of what I mean by MMORPG.com being an advocate or at least being a neutral third party.
More than gamers need the developer hype regurgitated they need the information and experience others have had with developers and game brought forth in the discussions of upcoming games. It is fine to release stories on developer diaries and whatnot but not if that is not tempered with stories on the issues gamers are having with a developer or a game. A site like MMORPG.com needs to cover both sides is all I am saying, so that gamers can offer their voice in an informed way, instead of continually getting suckered in to spending $50 or $60 for a box with the only recourse being not subscribing (something that is mostly still a win for developers rushing to live for a cash grab hoping to finish development in live).
I have to admit I often find the articles as hypothetical as any forum users thread. That is fine when it is a subjective topic but poor show when the topic is more hard nosed. As you say it would be pertinent to know who owns MMORG.com?
MMORPG.com is owned by a 2 person corporation, myself (Craig McGregor) and Ben Krueger, the VP and CTO. We have no connection to any game companies whatsoever...just a couple ordinary dudes who run a website.
So what started you up back in 2003 to have "mmorpg.com" and why ?
And ... do you find it normal WOW stands here at 8.1 score while on the complete internet out there the professional reviews come in at 9.2 average ?
it's not so much the 10% difference, it's much more the ridiculous huge gap with other "games" that's odd (the game is not even in your top 20).
An explantion is in order I guess when 2 dudes just fill in a form to own "mmorpg.com" and then continue on an island strange from planet earth....
Perhaps this tells you something, we know better than the "professionals" who for the most part are clueless about actually playing MMORPG's, especially over the long term.
Many games seem fun in the first few months, but over the long haul their shortcomings become readily apparent and WOW is one such game. There's a lot of great things it does, but in the end it brings an average gaming experience to a pinnacle, as long as a person is looking for average.
For more discriminating pallets there are other games out there and many of the posters here at MMORPG play them.
The site is fine, it caters to a certain niche of gamers (obviously not WOW fans) and we reflect that personality.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are correct, gamers have a voice - their wallets. The problem with that being our voice is that the developers seem to have arranged their strategies around the push to live, to selling boxes, even if that means subs suffer early. Yes, we get a voice but short of spending a big chunk of change based on over promising and under delivering we are not in a position to exercise that voice. What I think a site like MMORPG.com could be doing, and should be doing, is holding these developers to account for the things they put out as marketing hype and promises. A good example, not to interject something controversial, is Champions Online and Star Trek Online. CO clearly launched in an incomplete state with major content issues, I think few would argue that assessment. So why did a site like MMORPG.com not press Crytpic on their STO releases and interviews and hype about how Champion's was handled, especially since in STO you had an even bigger IP with shorter development? At a minimum MMORPG.com should have had all their 'coverage' bringing up the issue that just a few months before the same developer had major issues with a title that was rushed and content starved and they should have posed some tough questions to Crytpic about the seemingly, and now apparent, repeat with STO. I am not saying they should trash Cryptic or CO/STO, but they shouldn't have allowed Crytpic to push out their marketing hype on the site without answering tough questions about the way they handled their last launch and if they wouldn't answer the questions the subject should have been noted in any coverage. Again, not trying to argue CO/STO here - just trying to offer an example of what I mean by MMORPG.com being an advocate or at least being a neutral third party.
More than gamers need the developer hype regurgitated they need the information and experience others have had with developers and game brought forth in the discussions of upcoming games. It is fine to release stories on developer diaries and whatnot but not if that is not tempered with stories on the issues gamers are having with a developer or a game. A site like MMORPG.com needs to cover both sides is all I am saying, so that gamers can offer their voice in an informed way, instead of continually getting suckered in to spending $50 or $60 for a box with the only recourse being not subscribing (something that is mostly still a win for developers rushing to live for a cash grab hoping to finish development in live).
I do not think we should be getting suckered into spending the $50 or $60 dollars on a new game. If gamers did some research on the genre and the games coming to the shelves, they would know what to expect from a newly released MMO. The last game I bought was Aion, and even that was a struggle for me because I knew it wouldn't have anywhere near the content that well established MMO's do. But thats just part of the genre. I do not think you should buy a new MMORPG expecting to get 1000's of hours of entertainment out of it.. heck, if you can log in 2 days /played in that first month you are getting more entertainment out of that $50 than you are with most other retail PC games. If you enjoy the game beyond 1 month, and wish to see more content, you'll stick around and buy some more content with a monthly sub. When it doesn't happen, and/or you're done with it the game world, you stop subbing.
I agree that CO and STO should have been done differently. But I know if I had bought the games, I would have had enough hours of entertainment to make the $50 worthwhile; or I would have played it to get my money's worth. Its like any video game, do your research and make a decision whether or not its worth your cash. I'll never get suckered into buying any game. I will, however, get suckered into buying a round for my friends and spending a horrible $50. I always think of what games I could have bought with that...
I like your ideas about MMORPG.com and other sites advocating us as gamer's. Basically if they could deliver more legitimate information that would help us make that decision - whether or not to buy a new game - their editorial resources would be going to better use. Perhaps they have tried. It could be hard to get that kind of information out of a developer. And it wouldn't be fair or very interesting to post news articles stating "Cryptic refuses interview with MMORPG.com.. maybe they are hiding something?".
I still think this is a player-driven industry. We do have a voice, it just takes time to move things. Two recent examples of poor MMO releases are seen in CO and STO. I do not think anyone (the dev team, investors, publisher, etc.) are benefiting from these releases. The other developers in the genre will learn from these events (slowly) and continually listen to what the players want. We aren't happy. By listening to us and reviewing the mistakes of others, I think things will pick up again. The F2P market is catching on (DDO specifically.. but even high quality games like Allods and RoM provide lots of entertainment before needing the cash shop - and yes I know it becomes bad later on but you stil had fun getting there, for free, right?). Blizzard is making another game (yay!) and indie dev's like Icarus with their Fallen Earth seem to have created quite a buzz by doing something different. And on that note, what do we mean by "things picking up"? I think our recollection of the "Good ole days" is quite exaggerated. There were hardly any games and none of them were amazing. We just made them fun because there was nothing else to play. Now we have hundreds of options and spend more time thinking that the grass is greener in the next game over there.
I dont even remember what my original point was a few posts back. I just tried to tie what I was saying to the main point of the thread, in case I've ran in a few circles.
So what started you up back in 2003 to have "mmorpg.com" and why ? And ... do you find it normal WOW stands here at 8.1 score while on the complete internet out there the professional reviews come in at 9.2 average ? http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/534914-world-of-warcraft/index.html it's not so much the 10% difference, it's much more the ridiculous huge gap with other "games" that's odd (the game is not even in your top 20).
An explantion is in order I guess when 2 dudes just fill in a form to own "mmorpg.com" and then continue on an island strange from planet earth....
Perhaps this tells you something, we know better than the "professionals" who for the most part are clueless about actually playing MMORPG's, especially over the long term.
Many games seem fun in the first few months, but over the long haul their shortcomings become readily apparent and WOW is one such game. There's a lot of great things it does, but in the end it brings an average gaming experience to a pinnacle, as long as a person is looking for average.
For more discriminating pallets there are other games out there and many of the posters here at MMORPG play them.
The site is fine, it caters to a certain niche of gamers (obviously not WOW fans) and we reflect that personality.
A pity 1.23 billion yearly dollars income and a 6 years straight way succes is calling in another reality.
Welcome to planet earth where players pay to play....
Average, very average indeed these figures are.
Very grey opinion, like mmorpg.com and the competitiors: these days: very gray and unpolished.
Mmorpg.com is dead because they lost a check with reality lately.
They rather indulge themseles in "theories" which don't seem to belong to any reality check, like ... finances and measuring success in our society.
No wonder the MMO launches of the last 3 years and this very site is dying.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
It does seem the games yet to come out are overly hyped trying to get you to buy them. Then you do, take the game home, to find it really is bad. Why did I listen to that hype?
It does seem the games yet to come out are overly hyped trying to get you to buy them. Then you do, take the game home, to find it really is bad. Why did I listen to that hype?
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
I have to admit I often find the articles as hypothetical as any forum users thread. That is fine when it is a subjective topic but poor show when the topic is more hard nosed. As you say it would be pertinent to know who owns MMORG.com?
MMORPG.com is owned by a 2 person corporation, myself (Craig McGregor) and Ben Krueger, the VP and CTO. We have no connection to any game companies whatsoever...just a couple ordinary dudes who run a website.
So what started you up back in 2003 to have "mmorpg.com" and why ?
And ... do you find it normal WOW stands here at 8.1 score while on the complete internet out there the professional reviews come in at 9.2 average ?
it's not so much the 10% difference, it's much more the ridiculous huge gap with other "games" that's odd (the game is not even in your top 20).
An explantion is in order I guess when 2 dudes just fill in a form to own "mmorpg.com" and then continue on an island strange from planet earth....
Perhaps this tells you something, we know better than the "professionals" who for the most part are clueless about actually playing MMORPG's, especially over the long term.
Many games seem fun in the first few months, but over the long haul their shortcomings become readily apparent and WOW is one such game. There's a lot of great things it does, but in the end it brings an average gaming experience to a pinnacle, as long as a person is looking for average.
For more discriminating pallets there are other games out there and many of the posters here at MMORPG play them.
The site is fine, it caters to a certain niche of gamers (obviously not WOW fans) and we reflect that personality.
From my experience on this forum, I don't think the average person here knows more than the average game critic.
The reason WoW is getting so much hate is because its popular. Thats the only reason its getting so much hate.
Its cool to hate the most popular and mainstream game. World of Warcraft has managed to keep millions and millions of subscribers for years. I don't think WoW's lasting value is much of an issue.
If MMORPG.COM is dead then I would hate to see what you say about other much small sites. While I agree with many that I usually go direct to Massively these days for my news, I still always come and read the articles and browse the forums. This is still the most active spot that I have found as far as general chit/chat on almost every MMO.
The problem that we are seeing as brought up is the lack of the "new best thing". Sure WoW, and LoTRO are going strong, and AoC and DDO have really turned around. But most of the MMOs in the news lately such as STO, Champions Online, Allods and the lot have caught some pretty hard times. The thing is that right now MMOs are really in a slump. People are getting burnt out on the cornerstone MMOs and there hasn't been much to replace them yet.
Hopefully when games like SWTOR, APB, Secret World and such come out things will start looking up for the market as a whole. But more and more I think you are just seeing the diehard users posting. I know myself that I don't post anywhere what I used to post. Why? Because honestly there isn't a lot to really talk about. At least at this time it seems like a lot of the topics are just the same things over and over.
I think a lot of people just avoid posting to avoid either A) getting called a troll for stating their opinion and riling up fans, or just getting into the same old debates on stuff like RMT, Grinding, etc.
But to say that MMORPG.COM is dead is asinine at best. This is still one of the most professional gaming sites bar none. Sure every now and then we get a lesser article, but for the most part the contributions to the site are among the best.
-------------------------------- Currently Playing: Guild Wars 2 and Path of Exile
It does seem the games yet to come out are overly hyped trying to get you to buy them. Then you do, take the game home, to find it really is bad. Why did I listen to that hype?
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
You are absolutely correct, however one problem is that MMORPG.com is in it for the money.. plain and simple.. They have to be competitive against other gaming websites to get income from ads.. Problem is, each one of these game sites operate like a used car dealership.. Until they all agree to get their shit together, and clean up the industry as a whole, we the customers will continue to be screwed with shitty product.. I seriously doubt you'll have a "round table" meeting of all the gaming sites that will agree to stop hyping bad product, and start holding devs more accountable..
Only way I see a change is a rogue site that changes it's business model and starts being an advocate to the gamer
It does seem the games yet to come out are overly hyped trying to get you to buy them. Then you do, take the game home, to find it really is bad. Why did I listen to that hype?
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
You are absolutely correct, however one problem is that MMORPG.com is in it for the money.. plain and simple.. They have to be competitive against other gaming websites to get income from ads.. Problem is, each one of these game sites operate like a used car dealership.. Until they all agree to get their shit together, and clean up the industry as a whole, we the customers will continue to be screwed with shitty product.. I seriously doubt you'll have a "round table" meeting of all the gaming sites that will agree to stop hyping bad product, and start holding devs more accountable..
Only way I see a change is a rogue site that changes it's business model and starts being an advocate to the gamer
I'm hoping MMORPG.com will be the voice of reason, I mean random blogs on the internet shouldn't have been the first to call gPotato/Gala Net on the whole Cash Shop fiasco.
I mean I check this place more regularly than I check my email lol
I just hope that maybe they can call these new crop of devs on their bluffs
Sure WoW is gargantuan and SoE pretty much corners the market on MMO titles but both companies involved in both have had experience backing them. They've had the failures and success to gauge what should go ahead and what shouldn't go ahead but unfortunately in trying Economic times the consensus has become who can suck the most people dry before having to shut down.
Why can't these companies publish and develop Quality products that aren't too much like WoW but borrow what worked the best and redevelop it into a shiny new toaster that cooks an entire biscuit at once instead of just a slice of bread.
I'm one of the ones hoping the coming games will follow the lesser tread path and go with Quality and service over Quantity and Greed. Am I saying they shouldn't be working to earn your cash? No they need to but they don't need to go and say something Stupid like Gala Net did with the whole "We were looking at a certain niche of players at 1% to pay for our game" That sort of comment ONLY Works IF you only have 1000 players MAX at any given time. In the case of Allods Online it got SO MUCH Publicity from Word of mouth from beta testers (myself included) that we just had scads of people following us into the crapstorm that ensued when FoD and Cash Shop hit.
Someone has to be keeping an eye on these companies producing these games to inform us and be our voice since 90% of the time they listen to us like a talk radio station. They don't like what we have to say so they ignore us and change the channels til they find some delusional individual who's become such a fan they've lost their sense of right and wrong.
It does seem the games yet to come out are overly hyped trying to get you to buy them. Then you do, take the game home, to find it really is bad. Why did I listen to that hype?
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
You are absolutely correct, however one problem is that MMORPG.com is in it for the money.. plain and simple.. They have to be competitive against other gaming websites to get income from ads.. Problem is, each one of these game sites operate like a used car dealership.. Until they all agree to get their shit together, and clean up the industry as a whole, we the customers will continue to be screwed with shitty product.. I seriously doubt you'll have a "round table" meeting of all the gaming sites that will agree to stop hyping bad product, and start holding devs more accountable..
Only way I see a change is a rogue site that changes it's business model and starts being an advocate to the gamer
Perhaps true as things are today. But I tell you this, if a site like this one does take up the role of gamer advocate, or at least neutral third party, they can quickly garner gamers attention and so long as they have that they will have a source of ads and developers wanting to talk to them. By example, MSNBC might be friendly to the left but it does little good to go on MSNBC and preach to the very, very, very few watching.
I thought everyone used Adblock. I use Adblock and I never see any ads on MMORPG. I see offers, which is one of my favorite things about MMORPG.com. I love to see the offers, and I come here often for beta keys and the such.. But as I said, I never see ads.
Get Firefox + Adblock+ or Google Chrome + Adblock+. And if you're a firefox user, get NoScript too. Let's just face it. Websites are going to have ads. Might s well do something about it.
THIS^^
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I'll echo this again.
I switched to Firefox with Adblock and No-Script just because of this site.
The Piesta or Fiesta ads, whatever the aggravation is called, are not a valid excuse for slowing my laptop and desktop gaming computer.
The ads that have viruses or try tricking you into downloading malicious software.
Comments
I agree. And how can we review games here, if the mods ban you for giving a game a bad review?
Money talks.. BS walks (on in certain cases gets banned).. lol Websites that don't charge a fee make their money on Adverts.. Normally pro-rated according to "hits" or visits.. If a website is too critical in reviews, editorials and forums you'll end up Devs no longer giving perks to those very websites, like closed beta invites, interviews etc. etc. Without the co-op of the Dev's the website will start to lose viewer interest.. It is viewer interest that pays the bills, not the gaming companies.. However the Devs know that if they cut off the website, it could cause some drama within the economics and inner circles..
It's a very very fine line between ass kissing to devs, at the same time the devs NEED those websites as well to hype and sell their products.. This is just like Washington DC with all the bullshit politics that goes on.. One thing that is certain, is that we the viewers are often the ones that pay the price for their little dance.. Personally, I have no respect for devs or websites that thrust their crap on us and expect us to say "thank you"..
There are other forms of entertainment out there that I'm enjoying.. I currently do not play a MMO, because I'm burned out on most, and others are just a silly grind.. Sad part is that nothing has caught my eye down the road..
Just to add my 2 cents, I barely visit MMORPG.com anymore because the economy is THAT bad. I don't have the finances to play MMOs anymore. Hard to visit a website I love and see so many games I want to play when I am essentially broke.
Could be that MMOs being in a slump put the MMORPG website in a slump...just sayin.
Ditto this for me. I do visit and look around, but finances are in such dire straits right now that the concept of spending money on entertainment takes a back seat to house payment and groceries. I don't think MMORPG.com is dead so much as the industry is hurting in general.
If it wasn't for Mozilla Firefox and Adblock I would not visit mmorpg.com anymore. I visit daily, contribute quite a bit and usually enjoy myself so that would be a pity if Adblock stopped working somehow. When I come to the site on another computer and see the advertising I'm shocked by it. Some of it is terrible (I think it was an Evony add that made me look for something like Adblock). Almost all of it is distracting and makes the real website hard to see and access. It is great to read there is a disconnect between the people creating the content and those running the advertising business side of it because honestly, the advertising is kind of creepy.
I agree with others that mmorpg.com should (and is in an ideal position to!) shake things up and take up the mantle of MMO gamer advocate and really take some of the industry to task on what is currently going on. I almost bought STO because of the coverage that that game had here. The coverage was extensive and had quite a positive feeling to it; there was a feeling of anticipation and a defense of the overall design gaps people were already pointing out, e.g. the lack of diplomacy in the game given the IP. Fortunately I was patient and waited to see what would happen. I read why some people were very unhappy with it on various forums, I read about parallel issues with Champions Online and made a decision to at least wait for a free trial. I think that was a very good decision, and it happened in spite of mmorpg.com rather than because of it.
I think mmorpg.com could introduce a new kind of rating that would seek to protect the gamer, based partly on the history of customer satisfaction with the companies involved, partly on some objective measures for the game at hand (for example an indicator of the gap between what is promised and what has actually been demonstrated to be in the game) and partly on the degree to which you can try the game before paying anything. The rating should be completely transparent and carefully thought through. It should be updated when things change. I imagine it will be slightly different for F2P games. At least give it a go. Maybe it cannot be done in a fair and transparent way, but it would be good to see an attempt.
I do not completely object to either of your responses to my post. However, I do not see how we as gamers could feel that we have no voice. After all, we are the ones who buy the games and chose to play/continue subscribing. You say we are ultimately being harder on games than we otherwise might be. Here are we not using our voice? Negative discussions swirling through the community do not do well for the game.
Of course, your point is that our voices are moot because developers are continually getting away with the crap that we are trying to speak against. I do not think they are completely getting away with it. How many games have failed in the last couple of years? Sure, the publisher's pocket a few retail sales (as little as those amount to in comparison to the investment made into the development) but when everyone realizes the game is incomplete or lacking numerous promises, we leave. And spread the word.
I just feel that these actions are our voice, and they are quite powerful. With your suggestion, we would be in an even more powerful situation and so I agree with you that the interviewers should represent us better. We should expect, though, developers will not do interviews that are potentially going to put them on the spot and make them look bad. I guess that just takes away from their media attention, really, which is also bad.
Yeesh, what happened to this genre? Too capitalistic in a sense I guess...
The whole genre have been somewhat stale the last few years and that does reflect the sites about MMOs also. Several interesting and new thinking game will however launch next year and I am sure that we also will see new players here after that.
As for the guy who posted the game list year by year: I agree but Guildwars launched autumn 2004, not 2005.
Of course is it also the possibility that MMOs will die of with Wow but I knda doubt that, massive online games are something that fits todays facebook and twitter world and as soon as a good enough game comes out will the MMO players start to increase again. The problem so far is just that the last few years have we only gotten crap or games with little content and loads of bugs. That wont last forever.
Yes, yes it is dead.
And we all died in the crash along with it.
This is Hell.....
I do not completely object to either of your responses to my post. However, I do not see how we as gamers could feel that we have no voice. After all, we are the ones who buy the games and chose to play/continue subscribing. You say we are ultimately being harder on games than we otherwise might be. Here are we not using our voice? Negative discussions swirling through the community do not do well for the game.
Of course, your point is that our voices are moot because developers are continually getting away with the crap that we are trying to speak against. I do not think they are completely getting away with it. How many games have failed in the last couple of years? Sure, the publisher's pocket a few retail sales (as little as those amount to in comparison to the investment made into the development) but when everyone realizes the game is incomplete or lacking numerous promises, we leave. And spread the word.
I just feel that these actions are our voice, and they are quite powerful. With your suggestion, we would be in an even more powerful situation and so I agree with you that the interviewers should represent us better. We should expect, though, developers will not do interviews that are potentially going to put them on the spot and make them look bad. I guess that just takes away from their media attention, really, which is also bad.
Yeesh, what happened to this genre? Too capitalistic in a sense I guess...
You are correct, gamers have a voice - their wallets. The problem with that being our voice is that the developers seem to have arranged their strategies around the push to live, to selling boxes, even if that means subs suffer early. Yes, we get a voice but short of spending a big chunk of change based on over promising and under delivering we are not in a position to exercise that voice. What I think a site like MMORPG.com could be doing, and should be doing, is holding these developers to account for the things they put out as marketing hype and promises. A good example, not to interject something controversial, is Champions Online and Star Trek Online. CO clearly launched in an incomplete state with major content issues, I think few would argue that assessment. So why did a site like MMORPG.com not press Crytpic on their STO releases and interviews and hype about how Champion's was handled, especially since in STO you had an even bigger IP with shorter development? At a minimum MMORPG.com should have had all their 'coverage' bringing up the issue that just a few months before the same developer had major issues with a title that was rushed and content starved and they should have posed some tough questions to Crytpic about the seemingly, and now apparent, repeat with STO. I am not saying they should trash Cryptic or CO/STO, but they shouldn't have allowed Crytpic to push out their marketing hype on the site without answering tough questions about the way they handled their last launch and if they wouldn't answer the questions the subject should have been noted in any coverage. Again, not trying to argue CO/STO here - just trying to offer an example of what I mean by MMORPG.com being an advocate or at least being a neutral third party.
More than gamers need the developer hype regurgitated they need the information and experience others have had with developers and game brought forth in the discussions of upcoming games. It is fine to release stories on developer diaries and whatnot but not if that is not tempered with stories on the issues gamers are having with a developer or a game. A site like MMORPG.com needs to cover both sides is all I am saying, so that gamers can offer their voice in an informed way, instead of continually getting suckered in to spending $50 or $60 for a box with the only recourse being not subscribing (something that is mostly still a win for developers rushing to live for a cash grab hoping to finish development in live).
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MMORPG.com is owned by a 2 person corporation, myself (Craig McGregor) and Ben Krueger, the VP and CTO. We have no connection to any game companies whatsoever...just a couple ordinary dudes who run a website.
So what started you up back in 2003 to have "mmorpg.com" and why ?
And ... do you find it normal WOW stands here at 8.1 score while on the complete internet out there the professional reviews come in at 9.2 average ?
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/534914-world-of-warcraft/index.html
it's not so much the 10% difference, it's much more the ridiculous huge gap with other "games" that's odd (the game is not even in your top 20).
An explantion is in order I guess when 2 dudes just fill in a form to own "mmorpg.com" and then continue on an island strange from planet earth....
Perhaps this tells you something, we know better than the "professionals" who for the most part are clueless about actually playing MMORPG's, especially over the long term.
Many games seem fun in the first few months, but over the long haul their shortcomings become readily apparent and WOW is one such game. There's a lot of great things it does, but in the end it brings an average gaming experience to a pinnacle, as long as a person is looking for average.
For more discriminating pallets there are other games out there and many of the posters here at MMORPG play them.
The site is fine, it caters to a certain niche of gamers (obviously not WOW fans) and we reflect that personality.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not think we should be getting suckered into spending the $50 or $60 dollars on a new game. If gamers did some research on the genre and the games coming to the shelves, they would know what to expect from a newly released MMO. The last game I bought was Aion, and even that was a struggle for me because I knew it wouldn't have anywhere near the content that well established MMO's do. But thats just part of the genre. I do not think you should buy a new MMORPG expecting to get 1000's of hours of entertainment out of it.. heck, if you can log in 2 days /played in that first month you are getting more entertainment out of that $50 than you are with most other retail PC games. If you enjoy the game beyond 1 month, and wish to see more content, you'll stick around and buy some more content with a monthly sub. When it doesn't happen, and/or you're done with it the game world, you stop subbing.
I agree that CO and STO should have been done differently. But I know if I had bought the games, I would have had enough hours of entertainment to make the $50 worthwhile; or I would have played it to get my money's worth. Its like any video game, do your research and make a decision whether or not its worth your cash. I'll never get suckered into buying any game. I will, however, get suckered into buying a round for my friends and spending a horrible $50. I always think of what games I could have bought with that...
I like your ideas about MMORPG.com and other sites advocating us as gamer's. Basically if they could deliver more legitimate information that would help us make that decision - whether or not to buy a new game - their editorial resources would be going to better use. Perhaps they have tried. It could be hard to get that kind of information out of a developer. And it wouldn't be fair or very interesting to post news articles stating "Cryptic refuses interview with MMORPG.com.. maybe they are hiding something?".
I still think this is a player-driven industry. We do have a voice, it just takes time to move things. Two recent examples of poor MMO releases are seen in CO and STO. I do not think anyone (the dev team, investors, publisher, etc.) are benefiting from these releases. The other developers in the genre will learn from these events (slowly) and continually listen to what the players want. We aren't happy. By listening to us and reviewing the mistakes of others, I think things will pick up again. The F2P market is catching on (DDO specifically.. but even high quality games like Allods and RoM provide lots of entertainment before needing the cash shop - and yes I know it becomes bad later on but you stil had fun getting there, for free, right?). Blizzard is making another game (yay!) and indie dev's like Icarus with their Fallen Earth seem to have created quite a buzz by doing something different. And on that note, what do we mean by "things picking up"? I think our recollection of the "Good ole days" is quite exaggerated. There were hardly any games and none of them were amazing. We just made them fun because there was nothing else to play. Now we have hundreds of options and spend more time thinking that the grass is greener in the next game over there.
I dont even remember what my original point was a few posts back. I just tried to tie what I was saying to the main point of the thread, in case I've ran in a few circles.
I also Think MMORPG.com should get the scoop on things, they could definately be the Investigative journalists for the Gaming Community
Perhaps this tells you something, we know better than the "professionals" who for the most part are clueless about actually playing MMORPG's, especially over the long term.
Many games seem fun in the first few months, but over the long haul their shortcomings become readily apparent and WOW is one such game. There's a lot of great things it does, but in the end it brings an average gaming experience to a pinnacle, as long as a person is looking for average.
For more discriminating pallets there are other games out there and many of the posters here at MMORPG play them.
The site is fine, it caters to a certain niche of gamers (obviously not WOW fans) and we reflect that personality.
A pity 1.23 billion yearly dollars income and a 6 years straight way succes is calling in another reality.
Welcome to planet earth where players pay to play....
Average, very average indeed these figures are.
Very grey opinion, like mmorpg.com and the competitiors: these days: very gray and unpolished.
Mmorpg.com is dead because they lost a check with reality lately.
They rather indulge themseles in "theories" which don't seem to belong to any reality check, like ... finances and measuring success in our society.
No wonder the MMO launches of the last 3 years and this very site is dying.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
It does seem the games yet to come out are overly hyped trying to get you to buy them. Then you do, take the game home, to find it really is bad. Why did I listen to that hype?
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
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MMORPG.com is owned by a 2 person corporation, myself (Craig McGregor) and Ben Krueger, the VP and CTO. We have no connection to any game companies whatsoever...just a couple ordinary dudes who run a website.
So what started you up back in 2003 to have "mmorpg.com" and why ?
And ... do you find it normal WOW stands here at 8.1 score while on the complete internet out there the professional reviews come in at 9.2 average ?
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/534914-world-of-warcraft/index.html
it's not so much the 10% difference, it's much more the ridiculous huge gap with other "games" that's odd (the game is not even in your top 20).
An explantion is in order I guess when 2 dudes just fill in a form to own "mmorpg.com" and then continue on an island strange from planet earth....
Perhaps this tells you something, we know better than the "professionals" who for the most part are clueless about actually playing MMORPG's, especially over the long term.
Many games seem fun in the first few months, but over the long haul their shortcomings become readily apparent and WOW is one such game. There's a lot of great things it does, but in the end it brings an average gaming experience to a pinnacle, as long as a person is looking for average.
For more discriminating pallets there are other games out there and many of the posters here at MMORPG play them.
The site is fine, it caters to a certain niche of gamers (obviously not WOW fans) and we reflect that personality.
From my experience on this forum, I don't think the average person here knows more than the average game critic.
The reason WoW is getting so much hate is because its popular. Thats the only reason its getting so much hate.
Its cool to hate the most popular and mainstream game. World of Warcraft has managed to keep millions and millions of subscribers for years. I don't think WoW's lasting value is much of an issue.
If MMORPG.COM is dead then I would hate to see what you say about other much small sites. While I agree with many that I usually go direct to Massively these days for my news, I still always come and read the articles and browse the forums. This is still the most active spot that I have found as far as general chit/chat on almost every MMO.
The problem that we are seeing as brought up is the lack of the "new best thing". Sure WoW, and LoTRO are going strong, and AoC and DDO have really turned around. But most of the MMOs in the news lately such as STO, Champions Online, Allods and the lot have caught some pretty hard times. The thing is that right now MMOs are really in a slump. People are getting burnt out on the cornerstone MMOs and there hasn't been much to replace them yet.
Hopefully when games like SWTOR, APB, Secret World and such come out things will start looking up for the market as a whole. But more and more I think you are just seeing the diehard users posting. I know myself that I don't post anywhere what I used to post. Why? Because honestly there isn't a lot to really talk about. At least at this time it seems like a lot of the topics are just the same things over and over.
I think a lot of people just avoid posting to avoid either A) getting called a troll for stating their opinion and riling up fans, or
just getting into the same old debates on stuff like RMT, Grinding, etc.
But to say that MMORPG.COM is dead is asinine at best. This is still one of the most professional gaming sites bar none. Sure every now and then we get a lesser article, but for the most part the contributions to the site are among the best.
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Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
You are absolutely correct, however one problem is that MMORPG.com is in it for the money.. plain and simple.. They have to be competitive against other gaming websites to get income from ads.. Problem is, each one of these game sites operate like a used car dealership.. Until they all agree to get their shit together, and clean up the industry as a whole, we the customers will continue to be screwed with shitty product.. I seriously doubt you'll have a "round table" meeting of all the gaming sites that will agree to stop hyping bad product, and start holding devs more accountable..
Only way I see a change is a rogue site that changes it's business model and starts being an advocate to the gamer
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
You are absolutely correct, however one problem is that MMORPG.com is in it for the money.. plain and simple.. They have to be competitive against other gaming websites to get income from ads.. Problem is, each one of these game sites operate like a used car dealership.. Until they all agree to get their shit together, and clean up the industry as a whole, we the customers will continue to be screwed with shitty product.. I seriously doubt you'll have a "round table" meeting of all the gaming sites that will agree to stop hyping bad product, and start holding devs more accountable..
Only way I see a change is a rogue site that changes it's business model and starts being an advocate to the gamer
I'm hoping MMORPG.com will be the voice of reason, I mean random blogs on the internet shouldn't have been the first to call gPotato/Gala Net on the whole Cash Shop fiasco.
I mean I check this place more regularly than I check my email lol
I just hope that maybe they can call these new crop of devs on their bluffs
Sure WoW is gargantuan and SoE pretty much corners the market on MMO titles but both companies involved in both have had experience backing them. They've had the failures and success to gauge what should go ahead and what shouldn't go ahead but unfortunately in trying Economic times the consensus has become who can suck the most people dry before having to shut down.
Why can't these companies publish and develop Quality products that aren't too much like WoW but borrow what worked the best and redevelop it into a shiny new toaster that cooks an entire biscuit at once instead of just a slice of bread.
I'm one of the ones hoping the coming games will follow the lesser tread path and go with Quality and service over Quantity and Greed. Am I saying they shouldn't be working to earn your cash? No they need to but they don't need to go and say something Stupid like Gala Net did with the whole "We were looking at a certain niche of players at 1% to pay for our game" That sort of comment ONLY Works IF you only have 1000 players MAX at any given time. In the case of Allods Online it got SO MUCH Publicity from Word of mouth from beta testers (myself included) that we just had scads of people following us into the crapstorm that ensued when FoD and Cash Shop hit.
Someone has to be keeping an eye on these companies producing these games to inform us and be our voice since 90% of the time they listen to us like a talk radio station. They don't like what we have to say so they ignore us and change the channels til they find some delusional individual who's become such a fan they've lost their sense of right and wrong.
Well, that is kind of my point - all you hear is the hype, often times reported as news on sites like this. There is not push back form sites like this to developers who are either making claims that seem a stretch or that have a history of making false claims - so you get an all rosy, all the time perspective. I think that is why the forums tend to get very negative, because people are not just speaking out about their opinions but against the wave of hype and marketing crap that gets churned out from devs through sites like this with NO reality check or honest questions or other attempt to call to account game developers.
You are absolutely correct, however one problem is that MMORPG.com is in it for the money.. plain and simple.. They have to be competitive against other gaming websites to get income from ads.. Problem is, each one of these game sites operate like a used car dealership.. Until they all agree to get their shit together, and clean up the industry as a whole, we the customers will continue to be screwed with shitty product.. I seriously doubt you'll have a "round table" meeting of all the gaming sites that will agree to stop hyping bad product, and start holding devs more accountable..
Only way I see a change is a rogue site that changes it's business model and starts being an advocate to the gamer
Perhaps true as things are today. But I tell you this, if a site like this one does take up the role of gamer advocate, or at least neutral third party, they can quickly garner gamers attention and so long as they have that they will have a source of ads and developers wanting to talk to them. By example, MSNBC might be friendly to the left but it does little good to go on MSNBC and preach to the very, very, very few watching.
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THIS^^
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I'll echo this again.
I switched to Firefox with Adblock and No-Script just because of this site.
The Piesta or Fiesta ads, whatever the aggravation is called, are not a valid excuse for slowing my laptop and desktop gaming computer.
The ads that have viruses or try tricking you into downloading malicious software.
I don't find that acceptable.
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