OP, really all it comes down to is "what do you want from an MMO?" then search for a match. You sound like a typical MMO nomad always looking at what the game isn't. The glass is always half empty ext... I'm not going to get into the whole SWG thing but there is a reason they changed it. You are obviously looking for a recapture of the glory days and sorry to say, you are not going to find it. There is no large market demand for mindless grinders anymore. Sandbox, maybe...grinders, no. Since the market gave up on sandbox games about 5 or 6 years ago, we will never know. Evolve or die, that's how it works. The market moved on, you didn't.
I think its fairly clear to anyone who looks that the games from a non-emotional perspective that games are not evolving but devolving and its direct and measurable. would you care for some examples?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
OP, really all it comes down to is "what do you want from an MMO?" then search for a match. You sound like a typical MMO nomad always looking at what the game isn't. The glass is always half empty ext... I'm not going to get into the whole SWG thing but there is a reason they changed it. You are obviously looking for a recapture of the glory days and sorry to say, you are not going to find it. There is no large market demand for mindless grinders anymore. Sandbox, maybe...grinders, no. Since the market gave up on sandbox games about 5 or 6 years ago, we will never know. Evolve or die, that's how it works. The market moved on, you didn't.
I think its fairly clear to anyone who looks that the games from a non-emotional perspective that games are not evolving but devolving and its direct and measurable. would you care for some examples?
Please provide me with some examples of this 'devolution' you are talking about.
Please provide me with some examples of this 'devolution' you are talking about.
Item 1: NeverWinterNights. The progression from of the Neverwinter Nights game was declared to be for the most part Dragon Age. The primary reason most people play Neverwinter Nights is for the multiplayer aspect. Multiplayer has been removed from the NWN lineage in that Dragon Age does not have multiplayer customizable content possible. This is not a minor feature, this is a major feature.
Item 2: Bethesda. Although most of us can agree that more world access in a game does not always mean better quality however in most cases its does. This is the fact with Bethesda’s works, they have games with great amount explorable space and that space is often not devoid of things to do and is very enjoyable sqaure meter by square meter. With that said however each game that they have produced has had less space than the previous and this was stated by the company itself. Morrowind has more space than Oblivion and Oblivion has more space that Fallout 3.Could one argue that Oblivion has other features or content that Morrowind didn’t have that compensated for the smaller world? I don’t think so, if so I would like to read someone’s argument on that case.
Item 3: Game Reviewers: I have heard game reviewers describe Fallout 3 as ‘massive in size’ despite the fact that it is actually rather small world by previous game comparisons. Game reviewers have also described a game that requires quests to complete in a lineal fashion in order to get access to a great deal of the world as a ‘sandbox’ that game is GTA.
These are my classic examples I could come up with some more but at this time I need to leave the posts alone for a bit.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please provide me with some examples of this 'devolution' you are talking about.
Item 1: NeverWinterNights. The progression from of the Neverwinter Nights game was declared to be for the most part Dragon Age. The primary reason most people play Neverwinter Nights is for the multiplayer aspect. Multiplayer has been removed from the NWN lineage in that Dragon Age does not have multiplayer customizable content possible. This is not a minor feature, this is a major feature.
Item 2: Bethesda. Although most of us can agree that more world access in a game does not always mean better quality however in most cases its does. This is the fact with Bethesda’s works, they have games with great amount explorable space and that space is often not devoid of things to do and is very enjoyable sqaure meter by square meter. With that said however each game that they have produced has had less space than the previous and this was stated by the company itself. Morrowind has more space than Oblivion and Oblivion has more space that Fallout 3.Could one argue that Oblivion has other features or content that Morrowind didn’t have that compensated for the smaller world? I don’t think so, if so I would like to read someone’s argument on that case.
Item 3: Game Reviewers: I have heard game reviewers describe Fallout 3 as ‘massive in size’ despite the fact that it is actually rather small world by previous game comparisons. Game reviewers have also described a game that requires quests to complete in a lineal fashion in order to get access to a great deal of the world as a ‘sandbox’ that game is GTA.
These are my classic examples I could come up with some more but at this time I need to leave the posts alone for a bit.
QFE! Very well said mate, and great examples. Games like NWN are perfect examples that completely escaped me.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
OP, really all it comes down to is "what do you want from an MMO?" then search for a match. You sound like a typical MMO nomad always looking at what the game isn't. The glass is always half empty ext... I'm not going to get into the whole SWG thing but there is a reason they changed it. You are obviously looking for a recapture of the glory days and sorry to say, you are not going to find it. There is no large market demand for mindless grinders anymore. Sandbox, maybe...grinders, no. Since the market gave up on sandbox games about 5 or 6 years ago, we will never know. Evolve or die, that's how it works. The market moved on, you didn't.
Have you played World of Warcraft lately? It's nothing BUT a mindless grinder up until max level. All you do is follow very simple instructions, butcher set numbers of monsters/animals and make your way through the world till level 80. If you take the Dungeon option, all you do is repeat the content over and over again until you out level it and then jump into the next dungeon to do it all over again.
Raiding again is just a greater example of the Dungeon grinding I brought up except now you have 10 or 25 people to grind with all in the hopes of getting minor improvements on your gear score.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
OP, really all it comes down to is "what do you want from an MMO?" then search for a match. You sound like a typical MMO nomad always looking at what the game isn't. The glass is always half empty ext... I'm not going to get into the whole SWG thing but there is a reason they changed it. You are obviously looking for a recapture of the glory days and sorry to say, you are not going to find it. There is no large market demand for mindless grinders anymore. Sandbox, maybe...grinders, no. Since the market gave up on sandbox games about 5 or 6 years ago, we will never know. Evolve or die, that's how it works. The market moved on, you didn't.
Have you played World of Warcraft lately? It's nothing BUT a mindless grinder up until max level. All you do is follow very simple instructions, butcher set numbers of monsters/animals and make your way through the world till level 80. If you take the Dungeon option, all you do is repeat the content over and over again until you out level it and then jump into the next dungeon to do it all over again.
Raiding again is just a greater example of the Dungeon grinding I brought up except now you have 10 or 25 people to grind with all in the hopes of getting minor improvements on your gear score.
Exactly. You grind, grind, grind, get to max level, then raid, raid, raid, only to roll a new character and start the whole process all over again. There is no more open world PvP thanks to battlegrounds, and in my opinion, battlegrounds is not real PvP. As I stated in my original post, I believe they nerfed all the skill away. It's sad really.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Item 1: NeverWinterNights. The progression from of the Neverwinter Nights game was declared to be for the most part Dragon Age. The primary reason most people play Neverwinter Nights is for the multiplayer aspect. Multiplayer has been removed from the NWN lineage in that Dragon Age does not have multiplayer customizable content possible. This is not a minor feature, this is a major feature.
I disagree with this. "The primary reason" most people buy and play Neverwinter Nights is the singleplayer aspect. The primary reason why people keep playing far beyond its content, is the multiplayer.
And hey... Its Bioware, and its DnD.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Item 1: NeverWinterNights. The progression from of the Neverwinter Nights game was declared to be for the most part Dragon Age. The primary reason most people play Neverwinter Nights is for the multiplayer aspect. Multiplayer has been removed from the NWN lineage in that Dragon Age does not have multiplayer customizable content possible. This is not a minor feature, this is a major feature.
I disagree with this. "The primary reason" most people buy and play Neverwinter Nights is the singleplayer aspect. The primary reason why people keep playing far beyond its content, is the multiplayer.
And hey... Its Bioware, and its DnD.
As I stated in my original post, I firmly believe Bioware craps gold. This is just another wonderful example.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Gamers need to stop complaining and start boycotting.
Gamers talk about how the hate ubisoft DRM but then give them money anyways. People talk about not liking any current MMOs but give them money anyways.
STOP GIVING THEM MONEY. Period. It's the only way things will change.
The people in charge of these companies don't read forums, they only looks at financial reports. That's all they do. The devs may read the forums but they aren't in charge of the money.
However, a recent poster put that MMO used be done by programmers trying to make games they would like to play - and make money; while current games are by people trying to make money - then a good game. There is a degree of parallel with the film industry here. Big money trying to make the next big thing. Avitar - very expensive, but very sucessful; still sucked as a film though Particularly compaired to District 13 - now that was brilliant story line and inovative in its presentation.
I dislike these kind of claims because they are so hard to substantiate with anything other than pure opinion. You give a great example here. The thing is Avatar was James Cameron's baby, first thought of back in the mid 90's, but halted until he felt technology was good enough to make his vision come true. Made with intense focus on every little detail by a man known to be a perfectionist. Cameron did put his heart and soul into making that film, even if I thought it was a bit on the shallow side (though to be fair it's no more shallow than Star Wars ever was). This is why I dislike these sort of claims, some people will put their heart and soul into making things you will not like. It's simply not truthful to say that James Cameron made Avatar only for the money, he made the movie of his dreams; it just happened not to be the movie of my dreams.
Exceptions to the rule. There maybe one or two movies per year, where you can tell that the director put his heart and soul into the project. The rest feel like a money grub. Same with games.
There are developers out there who still try to make games they would enjoy to play, unfortunately, most are indie and don't have the financial backing to support their endeavors. Most developers, though, are just trying to make as much money as possible and it shows.
You say that, but it remains unsubstantiated opinion and seeing as it is a quite insulting opinion to those you target I find it a bit unsavory. In the end you don't know and your guess work is by no means infallible. It becomes nasty claims without any proper backing beyond "I feel like". There are far more valid points to be made about game design than making loose claims to the creators motives. After all, there's no shortage of crappy indie games trying to be deep and falling on their faces.
Gamers need to stop complaining and start boycotting. Gamers talk about how the hate ubisoft DRM but then give them money anyways. People talk about not liking any current MMOs but give them money anyways. STOP GIVING THEM MONEY. Period. It's the only way things will change. The people in charge of these companies don't read forums, they only looks at financial reports. That's all they do. The devs may read the forums but they aren't in charge of the money. 1.Stop giving them money.
2.Make your own game. Two things I'm doing and I'm much happier for it.
It's funny you mention that. My friend and I were just talking the other day about those old video game development college commercials. The one where they say something like, "do you know why you haven't played the next great game? Because you haven't developed it yet!" How true this has become. I'm starting to really believe in that commercial now. If I want a game that is truly outside the box, and not just another clone, I need to make it my damn self.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
OP, did you actualy thought for a second that the problem is on your end? Did you actualy thought that the there is no 'sad state of gaming' but you are just a tiny minority representing of what you may expect from a game? Did you actualy thought that you have a problem with accepting and respecting opinion and will of other people?
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
OP, did you actualy thought for a second that the problem is on your end? Did you actualy thought that the there is no 'sad state of gaming' but you are just a tiny minority representing of what you may expect from a game? Did you actualy thought that you have a problem with accepting and respecting opinion and will of other people?
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
OP, did you actualy thought for a second that the problem is on your end? Did you actualy thought that the there is no 'sad state of gaming' but you are just a tiny minority representing of what you may expect from a game? Did you actualy thought that you have a problem with accepting and respecting opinion and will of other people?
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
While I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I think that based on what I previously said, plus WoW's declining sub numbers are showing that people are getting tired of the same old crap.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
OP, did you actualy thought for a second that the problem is on your end? Did you actualy thought that the there is no 'sad state of gaming' but you are just a tiny minority representing of what you may expect from a game? Did you actualy thought that you have a problem with accepting and respecting opinion and will of other people?
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
While I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I think that based on what I previously said, plus WoW's declining sub numbers are showing that people are getting tired of the same old crap.
not only wow, last time i checked out the free week of lotro i counted only 10 ppl and there are similar reports from eq2. Most of these 'clones' seem to be going the same direction too. They all seem to start off big as ppl see if it offers anything new, followed by a decline of various degrees as they realise it doesn't
the only mmorpg i know of that seems to have genuine climbing numbers is still eve but nowhere near the number that are leaving other mmos. So a lot of people must be leaving the genre entirely
While trying not to get too horribly technical here, a few things. First of all to the OP, EQ2 did not copy WoW. It couldn't have considering EQ2 released before WoW did in 2004. Second, WoW copied EQ1. Third, I agree ..games are stale nowadays. Fourth, WoW ruined the MMO industry to be quite honest. The game was great for Blizzard and for the fans, but it ruined the MMO industry by far.
In fact companies are STILL trying to create WoW clones thinking that is what will draw in customers. I understand WoW worked, but having nothing but WoW clones makes the market value of MMO's decline rapidly.
OP, did you actualy thought for a second that the problem is on your end?
Did you actualy thought that the there is no 'sad state of gaming' but you are just a tiny minority representing of what you may expect from a game?
Did you actualy thought that you have a problem with accepting and respecting opinion and will of other people?
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
While I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I think that based on what I previously said, plus WoW's declining sub numbers are showing that people are getting tired of the same old crap.
not only wow, last time i checked out the free week of lotro i counted only 10 ppl and there are similar reports from eq2. Most of these 'clones' seem to be going the same direction too. They all seem to start off big as ppl see if it offers anything new, followed by a decline of various degrees as they realise it doesn't
the only mmorpg i know of that seems to have genuine climbing numbers is still eve but nowhere near the number that are leaving other mmos. So a lot of people must be leaving the genre entirely
Yeah I checked out the 14 day free trial for EQ2 about a month ago. I played on Nagafen, which is listed as a heavy pop pvp server. Granted there were a handful of people checking out the trial, there really wasnt anyone to speak of outside the first couple of starter areas.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
While trying not to get too horribly technical here, a few things. First of all to the OP, EQ2 did not copy WoW. It couldn't have considering EQ2 released before WoW did in 2004. Second, WoW copied EQ1. Third, I agree ..games are stale nowadays. Fourth, WoW ruined the MMO industry to be quite honest. The game was great for Blizzard and for the fans, but it ruined the MMO industry by far.
In fact companies are STILL trying to create WoW clones thinking that is what will draw in customers. I understand WoW worked, but having nothing but WoW clones makes the market value of MMO's decline rapidly.
Anyways...just a few thoughts.
If you recall my original post, when I mentioned EQ2, I didn't say they copied WoW directly. Obviouly not as the game came out about 3 weeks before WoW. But it was a terrible, broken game at first, and a lot of people didn't stick around. Over the course of the next year or so, they started re-tooling the game, to make it more WoW like. More solo friendly, dumbed down, etc.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
However, a recent poster put that MMO used be done by programmers trying to make games they would like to play - and make money; while current games are by people trying to make money - then a good game. There is a degree of parallel with the film industry here. Big money trying to make the next big thing. Avitar - very expensive, but very sucessful; still sucked as a film though Particularly compaired to District 13 - now that was brilliant story line and inovative in its presentation.
I dislike these kind of claims because they are so hard to substantiate with anything other than pure opinion. You give a great example here. The thing is Avatar was James Cameron's baby, first thought of back in the mid 90's, but halted until he felt technology was good enough to make his vision come true. Made with intense focus on every little detail by a man known to be a perfectionist. Cameron did put his heart and soul into making that film, even if I thought it was a bit on the shallow side (though to be fair it's no more shallow than Star Wars ever was). This is why I dislike these sort of claims, some people will put their heart and soul into making things you will not like. It's simply not truthful to say that James Cameron made Avatar only for the money, he made the movie of his dreams; it just happened not to be the movie of my dreams.
Exceptions to the rule. There maybe one or two movies per year, where you can tell that the director put his heart and soul into the project. The rest feel like a money grub. Same with games.
There are developers out there who still try to make games they would enjoy to play, unfortunately, most are indie and don't have the financial backing to support their endeavors. Most developers, though, are just trying to make as much money as possible and it shows.
You say that, but it remains unsubstantiated opinion and seeing as it is a quite insulting opinion to those you target I find it a bit unsavory. In the end you don't know and your guess work is by no means infallible. It becomes nasty claims without any proper backing beyond "I feel like". There are far more valid points to be made about game design than making loose claims to the creators motives. After all, there's no shortage of crappy indie games trying to be deep and falling on their faces.
If you don't see it, doesn't mean that it's not there.
So here is the first non creative response. Granted, WoW is just another fantasy game, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an EQ clone. Just because a game shares a genre with another, does not make it a clone.
Now it seems we have several EVE clones in the works. Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution, etc.
I am lost for a response.
But on the WoW clones, Iv played the last 3 what you would call major MMORPG releases, Warhammer, Aion and AoC, they're nothing like WoW. I presume these are the games you're refering to wow clones? I agree, they're no goood. but still they tried to be different from WoW. Perhaps that was their failue, not learning from wow and not looking at the things they have done that are good.
AoC, all instanced based, planned on being a PvP(opposite to wow) there was some guildv guild seiges, but i never played it for to long, lack of content and lack of polish drew me way.
Warhammer, it has no PvE raids, it has mass world PvP, it has no CC, its dungeons are somewhat challenging. its nothing like wow. again unpolished and lack of thought put into it, 2 factions does not work in a pvp game there battles and the flow of conflict was predictable, bland and therefor boring.
Aion, Well its a korean grinder and failed when it was ported to America, but it again is based around PvP...or it tries to but, like warhammer it turned into a pve fest ebcause its easier to get renown from pve than it is pvp, you can thank the wow generation though for everybody needing to be rewarded.
All those games also lacked polish on release, they should not have been released in their current stage, warhamemr needed a total overhaul to its core design, and well AoC should have just been 1-20.
Well, there's several factors in play right now that completely destroys most chances of a true gem coming out of the MMO industry these days:
1) Cost of development. Unless it's a Korean or Chinese made MMO, the average cost of an AAA rated game is upwards of 100+ million dollar game. Even if it is made in Korea or China, it's still a 30+ million game to make. As a result, this leads to several factors coming into play: Rampant Micro-Transactions (re: Free to Play MMO's from China or Korea) or massive cuts in game content to reduce cost, or rushing a game out to the market due to impatient investors-publishers "putting the screws" to the developer. Either way, many of todays MMO's are shipped missing 20-30% of the content originally designed to have, or are stripped out to make way for "Paid DLC".
2) The "Farmville Efffect". This is a continuation of the point I made in the 1st area, in that micro-transactions are doing far more harm than good. While in the past, you were able to get non-game affecting goodies (re: EQ2's house/apartment furnishings) that were simply nothing more than perks. But more and more of it is changing for the worse. Games routinely ship with either developed (but stripped out) or left incomplete during it's initial development cycle so it could be later offered as Paid-DLC. We see it in several MMO's in the form of new quest-mission areas, or in the ability to unlock powers-abilities (potentially) much earlier than a normal, non-paying, customer would otherwise get access to them. Some MMO"s will offer up gear via armor-weapons in the same manner as well.
3) Lastly, the "World of Warcraft Effect". While I won't venture into the "Hardcore vs. Casual" debate, I will say that certain "lines in the sand" that never should've been crossed, have been crossed, by the folks at Blizzard. As a result, since they are the pre-emminant MMO company in the industry at the moment, most mainstream MMO companies are going to try to mimick the success of WoW with their game, thus continuing the mistakes.
What does these 3 points do to the average MMO gamer? Simple: Unless it's a Korean/Chinese MMO, we buy a half-finished game with potential rampant bugs/imbalances due to a publisher wanting to recoup their investment ASAP. Also we pay a monthly subscription on top of this, only to find out we're probably going to have to pay even more extra money for DLC to experience all of the current game (this naturally excludes expansions). Even if it's a Free-To-Play MMO, we're in a constant state of "Keeping up with the Joneses" due to the rampant influx of paid DLC and items being made to all players. When you make it through all of that, the longevity of the game is put into question due to many people getting bored with the game due to feeling as if the game is not challenging enough, outside of situational (and ultimately 100% bypassable) harder modes of play.
I say all of this as a gamer who's been playing PC & Console games now since the advent of the Commodore 64 days. My first MMO was Meridian59 and I've played many of these MMO's, whether it was a pure-PVE game, pure-PVP, or a hybride of both. Several of these games, I've invested 5+ years of my life into & have developed a rather intimate knowledge of what works & what doesn't. I've seen our future & it's not looking good.
When you make it through all of that, the longevity of the game is put into question due to many people getting bored with the game due to feeling as if the game is not challenging enough, outside of situational (and ultimately 100% bypassable) harder modes of play.
I say all of this as a gamer who's been playing PC & Console games now since the advent of the Commodore 64 days. My first MMO was Meridian59 and I've played many of these MMO's, whether it was a pure-PVE game, pure-PVP, or a hybride of both. Several of these games, I've invested 5+ years of my life into & have developed a rather intimate knowledge of what works & what doesn't. I've seen our future & it's not looking good.
Logevity of a game is not that important anyway. As long as the ride is fun, who cares if the content last forever. Nothing does. Any games that can entertain me for more then 6 months is a huge win. Most SP games wont last more than 2-3 weeks and that does NOT diminish the entertainment value.
WOW is brilliant to have different diff modes. It is insane to create expensive content only a few percentage of their play base will ever see. Sunwell is the best example. WOTLK is much more successful than Sunwell precisely because of this new direction. Surely some hard core players (the 2%) are going to whine but who cares about them.
I hate to break it to you. All games have finite content and will become boring sooner or later. So it is not about how long it will last. It is about how fun is the ride. If you still dream of that 10 year games .. may be you should get a new hobby.
Logevity of a game is not that important anyway. As long as the ride is fun, who cares if the content last forever. Nothing does. Any games that can entertain me for more then 6 months is a huge win. Most SP games wont last more than 2-3 weeks and that does NOT diminish the entertainment value.
WOW is brilliant to have different diff modes. It is insane to create expensive content only a few percentage of their play base will ever see. Sunwell is the best example. WOTLK is much more successful than Sunwell precisely because of this new direction. Surely some hard core players (the 2%) are going to whine but who cares about them.
I hate to break it to you. All games have finite content and will become boring sooner or later. So it is not about how long it will last. It is about how fun is the ride. If you still dream of that 10 year games .. may be you should get a new hobby.
I understand that all games have a finite amount of content to be offered. What I was referring to in the situation of WoW & how they are addressing game content & future development is that as time passes & each new set of content is developed not only for established players, but for the new(er) ones coming to it, either for their first time, or near it, are returning fewer & fewer times, due to waning interest in the content. While I'll admit, I would never want to return to what was the status quo in places such as Molten Core or Blackwing Lair, but I will readily admit that there was more longevity in that content versus what we're seeing in Icecrown Citedal. Also, I'd like to say that there does come a point in time in which no matter how much new content a developer throws at an established game, it doesn't matter. When people need to leave and stomp around in new lands that are not the same as what they're currently playing, they'll leave, no matter the challenge or the perceived fun of the current game, otherwise games such as Ultima Online & EverQuest 1 would still be just as popular today as they were 10+ years ago.
But on the WoW clones, Iv played the last 3 what you would call major MMORPG releases, Warhammer, Aion and AoC, they're nothing like WoW. I presume these are the games you're refering to wow clones? I agree, they're no goood. but still they tried to be different from WoW. Perhaps that was their failue, not learning from wow and not looking at the things they have done that are good.
...
Warhammer, it has no PvE raids, it has mass world PvP, it has no CC, its dungeons are somewhat challenging. its nothing like wow. again unpolished and lack of thought put into it, 2 factions does not work in a pvp game there battles and the flow of conflict was predictable, bland and therefor boring.
I am not sure which version of Warhammer you played but it had quite a number of PvE raids - that people were quite often doing instead of running RvR groups because there was better loot in the dungeons (and the keep-taking circle-jerk got old real quick). It has the most ridiculous amount of CC I have ever seen in any MMO ever.
It was quite a lot like WoW actually, but the those parts were some of the worst designed (quest and talent-tree aspects to name just two). The game though didn't lose all those subs because it was a poor WoW clone. The game was just not fun once you passed Tier 1.
There were a few nice ideas in Warhammer (that have since made their way into new games) but they were all implemented atrociously. Out of all the MMOs that have been released in the past 5 years the design of Warhammer makes me boggle more than anything. It truly made me wonder if Marc Jacobs wasn't suffering from some debilitating mental illness.
I agree that AoC was nothing like WoW. It tried very hard to be nothing like WoW and I think it succeeded in that at least. The sub numbers for AoC are growing and this is due to all the hard work the team have done over the past year - the upcoming expansion will no doubt draw a few more back or in. It was just a shame that such a poor release hurt the game, and Funcom's, rep so much.
Comments
I think its fairly clear to anyone who looks that the games from a non-emotional perspective that games are not evolving but devolving and its direct and measurable. would you care for some examples?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think its fairly clear to anyone who looks that the games from a non-emotional perspective that games are not evolving but devolving and its direct and measurable. would you care for some examples?
Please provide me with some examples of this 'devolution' you are talking about.
Item 1: NeverWinterNights. The progression from of the Neverwinter Nights game was declared to be for the most part Dragon Age. The primary reason most people play Neverwinter Nights is for the multiplayer aspect. Multiplayer has been removed from the NWN lineage in that Dragon Age does not have multiplayer customizable content possible. This is not a minor feature, this is a major feature.
Item 2: Bethesda. Although most of us can agree that more world access in a game does not always mean better quality however in most cases its does. This is the fact with Bethesda’s works, they have games with great amount explorable space and that space is often not devoid of things to do and is very enjoyable sqaure meter by square meter. With that said however each game that they have produced has had less space than the previous and this was stated by the company itself. Morrowind has more space than Oblivion and Oblivion has more space that Fallout 3.Could one argue that Oblivion has other features or content that Morrowind didn’t have that compensated for the smaller world? I don’t think so, if so I would like to read someone’s argument on that case.
Item 3: Game Reviewers: I have heard game reviewers describe Fallout 3 as ‘massive in size’ despite the fact that it is actually rather small world by previous game comparisons. Game reviewers have also described a game that requires quests to complete in a lineal fashion in order to get access to a great deal of the world as a ‘sandbox’ that game is GTA.
These are my classic examples I could come up with some more but at this time I need to leave the posts alone for a bit.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Item 1: NeverWinterNights. The progression from of the Neverwinter Nights game was declared to be for the most part Dragon Age. The primary reason most people play Neverwinter Nights is for the multiplayer aspect. Multiplayer has been removed from the NWN lineage in that Dragon Age does not have multiplayer customizable content possible. This is not a minor feature, this is a major feature.
Item 2: Bethesda. Although most of us can agree that more world access in a game does not always mean better quality however in most cases its does. This is the fact with Bethesda’s works, they have games with great amount explorable space and that space is often not devoid of things to do and is very enjoyable sqaure meter by square meter. With that said however each game that they have produced has had less space than the previous and this was stated by the company itself. Morrowind has more space than Oblivion and Oblivion has more space that Fallout 3.Could one argue that Oblivion has other features or content that Morrowind didn’t have that compensated for the smaller world? I don’t think so, if so I would like to read someone’s argument on that case.
Item 3: Game Reviewers: I have heard game reviewers describe Fallout 3 as ‘massive in size’ despite the fact that it is actually rather small world by previous game comparisons. Game reviewers have also described a game that requires quests to complete in a lineal fashion in order to get access to a great deal of the world as a ‘sandbox’ that game is GTA.
These are my classic examples I could come up with some more but at this time I need to leave the posts alone for a bit.
QFE! Very well said mate, and great examples. Games like NWN are perfect examples that completely escaped me.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Have you played World of Warcraft lately? It's nothing BUT a mindless grinder up until max level. All you do is follow very simple instructions, butcher set numbers of monsters/animals and make your way through the world till level 80. If you take the Dungeon option, all you do is repeat the content over and over again until you out level it and then jump into the next dungeon to do it all over again.
Raiding again is just a greater example of the Dungeon grinding I brought up except now you have 10 or 25 people to grind with all in the hopes of getting minor improvements on your gear score.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Have you played World of Warcraft lately? It's nothing BUT a mindless grinder up until max level. All you do is follow very simple instructions, butcher set numbers of monsters/animals and make your way through the world till level 80. If you take the Dungeon option, all you do is repeat the content over and over again until you out level it and then jump into the next dungeon to do it all over again.
Raiding again is just a greater example of the Dungeon grinding I brought up except now you have 10 or 25 people to grind with all in the hopes of getting minor improvements on your gear score.
Exactly. You grind, grind, grind, get to max level, then raid, raid, raid, only to roll a new character and start the whole process all over again. There is no more open world PvP thanks to battlegrounds, and in my opinion, battlegrounds is not real PvP. As I stated in my original post, I believe they nerfed all the skill away. It's sad really.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
I disagree with this. "The primary reason" most people buy and play Neverwinter Nights is the singleplayer aspect. The primary reason why people keep playing far beyond its content, is the multiplayer.
And hey... Its Bioware, and its DnD.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I disagree with this. "The primary reason" most people buy and play Neverwinter Nights is the singleplayer aspect. The primary reason why people keep playing far beyond its content, is the multiplayer.
And hey... Its Bioware, and its DnD.
As I stated in my original post, I firmly believe Bioware craps gold. This is just another wonderful example.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Gamers need to stop complaining and start boycotting.
Gamers talk about how the hate ubisoft DRM but then give them money anyways. People talk about not liking any current MMOs but give them money anyways.
STOP GIVING THEM MONEY. Period. It's the only way things will change.
The people in charge of these companies don't read forums, they only looks at financial reports. That's all they do. The devs may read the forums but they aren't in charge of the money.
1.Stop giving them money.
2.Make your own game.
Two things I'm doing and I'm much happier for it.
I dislike these kind of claims because they are so hard to substantiate with anything other than pure opinion. You give a great example here. The thing is Avatar was James Cameron's baby, first thought of back in the mid 90's, but halted until he felt technology was good enough to make his vision come true. Made with intense focus on every little detail by a man known to be a perfectionist. Cameron did put his heart and soul into making that film, even if I thought it was a bit on the shallow side (though to be fair it's no more shallow than Star Wars ever was). This is why I dislike these sort of claims, some people will put their heart and soul into making things you will not like. It's simply not truthful to say that James Cameron made Avatar only for the money, he made the movie of his dreams; it just happened not to be the movie of my dreams.
Exceptions to the rule. There maybe one or two movies per year, where you can tell that the director put his heart and soul into the project. The rest feel like a money grub. Same with games.
There are developers out there who still try to make games they would enjoy to play, unfortunately, most are indie and don't have the financial backing to support their endeavors. Most developers, though, are just trying to make as much money as possible and it shows.
You say that, but it remains unsubstantiated opinion and seeing as it is a quite insulting opinion to those you target I find it a bit unsavory. In the end you don't know and your guess work is by no means infallible. It becomes nasty claims without any proper backing beyond "I feel like". There are far more valid points to be made about game design than making loose claims to the creators motives. After all, there's no shortage of crappy indie games trying to be deep and falling on their faces.
It's funny you mention that. My friend and I were just talking the other day about those old video game development college commercials. The one where they say something like, "do you know why you haven't played the next great game? Because you haven't developed it yet!" How true this has become. I'm starting to really believe in that commercial now. If I want a game that is truly outside the box, and not just another clone, I need to make it my damn self.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
OP, did you actualy thought for a second that the problem is on your end?
Did you actualy thought that the there is no 'sad state of gaming' but you are just a tiny minority representing of what you may expect from a game?
Did you actualy thought that you have a problem with accepting and respecting opinion and will of other people?
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
While I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I think that based on what I previously said, plus WoW's declining sub numbers are showing that people are getting tired of the same old crap.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Well, based on feedback from my friends, and the general gaming community on here that took the time to respond, no I don't think it's on my end.
This forum is a minority of a minority of gamers (mmo players). Also, people with similar opinions tend to group up together.
While I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I think that based on what I previously said, plus WoW's declining sub numbers are showing that people are getting tired of the same old crap.
not only wow, last time i checked out the free week of lotro i counted only 10 ppl and there are similar reports from eq2. Most of these 'clones' seem to be going the same direction too. They all seem to start off big as ppl see if it offers anything new, followed by a decline of various degrees as they realise it doesn't
the only mmorpg i know of that seems to have genuine climbing numbers is still eve but nowhere near the number that are leaving other mmos. So a lot of people must be leaving the genre entirely
While trying not to get too horribly technical here, a few things. First of all to the OP, EQ2 did not copy WoW. It couldn't have considering EQ2 released before WoW did in 2004. Second, WoW copied EQ1. Third, I agree ..games are stale nowadays. Fourth, WoW ruined the MMO industry to be quite honest. The game was great for Blizzard and for the fans, but it ruined the MMO industry by far.
In fact companies are STILL trying to create WoW clones thinking that is what will draw in customers. I understand WoW worked, but having nothing but WoW clones makes the market value of MMO's decline rapidly.
Anyways...just a few thoughts.
Yeah I checked out the 14 day free trial for EQ2 about a month ago. I played on Nagafen, which is listed as a heavy pop pvp server. Granted there were a handful of people checking out the trial, there really wasnt anyone to speak of outside the first couple of starter areas.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
If you recall my original post, when I mentioned EQ2, I didn't say they copied WoW directly. Obviouly not as the game came out about 3 weeks before WoW. But it was a terrible, broken game at first, and a lot of people didn't stick around. Over the course of the next year or so, they started re-tooling the game, to make it more WoW like. More solo friendly, dumbed down, etc.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
If you don't see it, doesn't mean that it's not there.
I am lost for a response.
But on the WoW clones, Iv played the last 3 what you would call major MMORPG releases, Warhammer, Aion and AoC, they're nothing like WoW. I presume these are the games you're refering to wow clones? I agree, they're no goood. but still they tried to be different from WoW. Perhaps that was their failue, not learning from wow and not looking at the things they have done that are good.
AoC, all instanced based, planned on being a PvP(opposite to wow) there was some guildv guild seiges, but i never played it for to long, lack of content and lack of polish drew me way.
Warhammer, it has no PvE raids, it has mass world PvP, it has no CC, its dungeons are somewhat challenging. its nothing like wow. again unpolished and lack of thought put into it, 2 factions does not work in a pvp game there battles and the flow of conflict was predictable, bland and therefor boring.
Aion, Well its a korean grinder and failed when it was ported to America, but it again is based around PvP...or it tries to but, like warhammer it turned into a pve fest ebcause its easier to get renown from pve than it is pvp, you can thank the wow generation though for everybody needing to be rewarded.
All those games also lacked polish on release, they should not have been released in their current stage, warhamemr needed a total overhaul to its core design, and well AoC should have just been 1-20.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
Well, there's several factors in play right now that completely destroys most chances of a true gem coming out of the MMO industry these days:
1) Cost of development. Unless it's a Korean or Chinese made MMO, the average cost of an AAA rated game is upwards of 100+ million dollar game. Even if it is made in Korea or China, it's still a 30+ million game to make. As a result, this leads to several factors coming into play: Rampant Micro-Transactions (re: Free to Play MMO's from China or Korea) or massive cuts in game content to reduce cost, or rushing a game out to the market due to impatient investors-publishers "putting the screws" to the developer. Either way, many of todays MMO's are shipped missing 20-30% of the content originally designed to have, or are stripped out to make way for "Paid DLC".
2) The "Farmville Efffect". This is a continuation of the point I made in the 1st area, in that micro-transactions are doing far more harm than good. While in the past, you were able to get non-game affecting goodies (re: EQ2's house/apartment furnishings) that were simply nothing more than perks. But more and more of it is changing for the worse. Games routinely ship with either developed (but stripped out) or left incomplete during it's initial development cycle so it could be later offered as Paid-DLC. We see it in several MMO's in the form of new quest-mission areas, or in the ability to unlock powers-abilities (potentially) much earlier than a normal, non-paying, customer would otherwise get access to them. Some MMO"s will offer up gear via armor-weapons in the same manner as well.
3) Lastly, the "World of Warcraft Effect". While I won't venture into the "Hardcore vs. Casual" debate, I will say that certain "lines in the sand" that never should've been crossed, have been crossed, by the folks at Blizzard. As a result, since they are the pre-emminant MMO company in the industry at the moment, most mainstream MMO companies are going to try to mimick the success of WoW with their game, thus continuing the mistakes.
What does these 3 points do to the average MMO gamer? Simple: Unless it's a Korean/Chinese MMO, we buy a half-finished game with potential rampant bugs/imbalances due to a publisher wanting to recoup their investment ASAP. Also we pay a monthly subscription on top of this, only to find out we're probably going to have to pay even more extra money for DLC to experience all of the current game (this naturally excludes expansions). Even if it's a Free-To-Play MMO, we're in a constant state of "Keeping up with the Joneses" due to the rampant influx of paid DLC and items being made to all players. When you make it through all of that, the longevity of the game is put into question due to many people getting bored with the game due to feeling as if the game is not challenging enough, outside of situational (and ultimately 100% bypassable) harder modes of play.
I say all of this as a gamer who's been playing PC & Console games now since the advent of the Commodore 64 days. My first MMO was Meridian59 and I've played many of these MMO's, whether it was a pure-PVE game, pure-PVP, or a hybride of both. Several of these games, I've invested 5+ years of my life into & have developed a rather intimate knowledge of what works & what doesn't. I've seen our future & it's not looking good.
When you make it through all of that, the longevity of the game is put into question due to many people getting bored with the game due to feeling as if the game is not challenging enough, outside of situational (and ultimately 100% bypassable) harder modes of play.
I say all of this as a gamer who's been playing PC & Console games now since the advent of the Commodore 64 days. My first MMO was Meridian59 and I've played many of these MMO's, whether it was a pure-PVE game, pure-PVP, or a hybride of both. Several of these games, I've invested 5+ years of my life into & have developed a rather intimate knowledge of what works & what doesn't. I've seen our future & it's not looking good.
Logevity of a game is not that important anyway. As long as the ride is fun, who cares if the content last forever. Nothing does. Any games that can entertain me for more then 6 months is a huge win. Most SP games wont last more than 2-3 weeks and that does NOT diminish the entertainment value.
WOW is brilliant to have different diff modes. It is insane to create expensive content only a few percentage of their play base will ever see. Sunwell is the best example. WOTLK is much more successful than Sunwell precisely because of this new direction. Surely some hard core players (the 2%) are going to whine but who cares about them.
I hate to break it to you. All games have finite content and will become boring sooner or later. So it is not about how long it will last. It is about how fun is the ride. If you still dream of that 10 year games .. may be you should get a new hobby.
I am not sure which version of Warhammer you played but it had quite a number of PvE raids - that people were quite often doing instead of running RvR groups because there was better loot in the dungeons (and the keep-taking circle-jerk got old real quick). It has the most ridiculous amount of CC I have ever seen in any MMO ever.
It was quite a lot like WoW actually, but the those parts were some of the worst designed (quest and talent-tree aspects to name just two). The game though didn't lose all those subs because it was a poor WoW clone. The game was just not fun once you passed Tier 1.
There were a few nice ideas in Warhammer (that have since made their way into new games) but they were all implemented atrociously. Out of all the MMOs that have been released in the past 5 years the design of Warhammer makes me boggle more than anything. It truly made me wonder if Marc Jacobs wasn't suffering from some debilitating mental illness.
I agree that AoC was nothing like WoW. It tried very hard to be nothing like WoW and I think it succeeded in that at least. The sub numbers for AoC are growing and this is due to all the hard work the team have done over the past year - the upcoming expansion will no doubt draw a few more back or in. It was just a shame that such a poor release hurt the game, and Funcom's, rep so much.