And yet, despite the dozens (if not hundreds) of MMO's released in the past 5 years, not one of them is comparable to DAOC in its heyday. (it is a hollow shell of itself these days.) Its not nostalgia, today's games are substandard when compared to some of their predecessors, despite their improvements and ease of use.
You said it yourself (in an odd way): fire up DAOC ... today and it's rather pathetic to play.
From the very boring beginnings to the complete empty servers to play it on.
Unless you like having 9 people logged in to wage a "massive" war with terrible animated avatars.
To all those: just relaunch your old classics and be convinced it is only nostalgia that plays.
For new players these decade old games are a freightening experience .
These people won't even understand what you are talking about.
It is like a 12 year old kid watching PacMan and saying "Is this what you played all day long grandpa ???"
Of course WOW 2010 beats them with one finger. Just fire up and see what your mind paints and ... what reality tells you when reviewing them.
I give you 10 minutes before closing the monitor with a sigh...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Man I wish some of you would wake up from your dream state of suckling the WoW teet long enough to realize that it HAD 11 million players at one point, but I am willing to bet it doesn't now...unless you count gold farmers.
Man I wish you could read financial reports ... and stopped having nightmares about succes.
The WOW money was in 2009 coming to 1.23 billion dollars, just like the year before and 400 million more than 3 years ago etc...
I would like to have a dream which made me 1.23 billion dollars of "real" money a year.
Yes and that money comes from gamers.
Gamers that left old ones. Why? because these couldn't hold a candle against Blizz HQ product.
Simple. Nostalgia doesn't make money, not a penny.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
We didn't have to worry about owning the right gear or getting achievements, and we didn't follow a "go here to win" signpost to complete quests. We logged in and did what we felt like doing, with the goals given us as mere guides. We could get lost, we could find something new and intriguing, we could make new friends in the wilderness.
That doesn't happen anymore. We're all too busy trying to get from A to B to notice anything cool, the goals we're given are mandatory and absolute as if the job is all there is to do.
Players are greedy, quests are jobs, and the world is a corporate theme park.
That's a casino, my friends.
The people who "play" in them are addicted, wasting their money on a second job that pays in the red.
Well, you're right in some areas, wrong in others. What the main difference between now and early gaming is, gaming is now mainstream. A lot of Pc game developers got pulled along in to going mainstream doing cross platform leaving fewer developers creating games to the full potential of the current Pc hardware.
As a result a genre that once had far more depth in the past has had more titles made xplat and streamlined for more simplicity to appeal the mainstream leaving fewer titles of the genre that are Pc exclusive and of the depth expected from Pc gamers...
One day pretty soon you'll be the older gamer too telling the younger generation how it was when you start looking for more depth in your gaming and start discovering the gems of the past. Time waits for no man or boy and you'll be older soon enough, maybe if you're lucky,life is very short filled with a path of obstacles.
The word "mainstream" has nothing to do with it. That just means it's popular and accessible - a thought of the general majority.
Why do we see older games as better? Because they were. They were made for fun and fun to make.
They were not made to maximize profit, they were developed by small studios full of people who did what they did for the joy of it. They didn't figure how many play hours the player would get out of it, or how much of their content should be DLC or "visible, yet available only when unlocked with an expansion." They just thought of something cool and went about their business making it happen.
Those studios are gone.
It's not the gamers that have changed, it's the developers. They've become goal-invested patrons of corporate greed, trading their legacy and fan loyalty for a predictable paycheck. However, it is not all their fault. They needed the money to do what they love... and that is in where the corruption seeps. They're victims just as much as their playerbases are, working at their activities instead of enjoying it.
The publishers that reign over studios exist to make money, and they use them to produce products with which to do just that. They don't care if any of it is good or bad, they just want something to put on a plastic disc or encrypt with a code that they can sell to consumers. They exist to corral money out of the public and beat the horse they ride until it dies while doing it.
So you want to know the difference between "now" and "then?"
Corporate infestation - from investing in a process to investing in a goal.
Developers used to make games for the fun of making games, now they do it for money.
Their target market used to play games for the love of playing games, now they aim for those who do it to get to the next level.
See any parallels here?
You should. Games have become work to play, and it's no coincidence.
The human brain usualy remember the old stuff better than it was, get over it, old mmos weren't better, just you remember them better. Now try to continue being young in your soul and have fun playing the new ones.
Simply put, Games need to be better quality. Today's MMO are crap because they lack the "fun" value that the old games had. The catering to solo is the problem. EVeryone screams they want to solo.. so the gamei s dumbed down to allow all classes to solo. When you could always solo in MMO, it was harder and required more skill in the early games.
With the solo aspect comes a new breed of idiots. The Antisocial crowd who just solo's and doesn't know how to ineract with others.
The games back in the day not only had much better gameplay but also better social structures. Sure updates in UI, graphics are nice... but at the servere cost of gameplay.
You telling me that a 2010 Mustang is better then one of the older models?
While I understand some of the younger peoples opinions on this I think you are misconcieving it. We "old" people don't want someone to remake our past game, and really do want the genre to evolve. However looking at gameplay it seems to be getting easier and easier. It would be like watching a football game where everyone wins. Without challange it's just not entertaining. The genre as a whole appears to be de-evolving. The trend for reguler RPG's is to got he route of a movie with options gutting out everything else, and the trend for MMORPG's tend to try and replicate WoWs success by making the game so easy a retarded monkey can play it. The genre as a whole needs to accept that most americans are stupid, and lazy. The genre needs to accept that out of that group of people, those who are willing to play MMO's, play WoW. WoW has the market for stupid, lazy gamers. I'm not saying that everyone who plays WoW is. Just that those that are, are definately playing WoW. When we say we want things to go back to the old school days, we mean we want an MMO with a challenge. It doesn't have to be an MMO for you. There are so many games out there now for the "casual gamer" which I think has been tortured into becomming "retarded gamer". I in fact think a lot of casual gamers are as well getting sick of how easy games are getting. My point is that there is a banquet of MMO's for those types of gamers. Can we, not necesarrily hardcore, gamers have an old school MMO that was about adventure and overcoming challeneges? Is it really so much to ask? I played WoW. I got to 80 and was in full tier 9 or better epic gear in 3 days. I finished the game, minus ICC, in 3 days after attaining the max level. I can mash my head on my keyboard and have success in WoW. I could easily make the same thread about newer generations of people and their rufusal to play anything with a challenge in it.
Brilliant post, and it doesn't surprise me that someone with it as close to 100% right as I've seen it could finish WoW as fast as you claim here. You're spot on: most Americans are stupid and lazy now. Most require spoon feeding and cannot muster enough mental energy to get the attention they seek by doing anything other than pulling their pants down to their knees so that if a rabid pitbull comes around the corner they're doing anything but attempting to manage a scrambling crawl off the sidewalk having fallen on their faces in a vain attempt to briskly walk away from danger.
Games are de-evolving in the same way that life itself is de-evolving. We're so concerned that everyone succeeds that we miss the point that if everyone succeeds, no one really does. We miss the point that without penalty, the absence of reward becomes equivalent to penalty, and rewards become more hollow.
Death penalty in MMORGs...re-examine it. I mean actually use your brain cells for more than twenty seconds and THINK about what it would mean. Not, obviously, if only that game dynamic changed, but if that dynamic changed and altered other dynamics as well. Perhaps each time your character dies you permanently become 1% weaker. Perhaps you only get ten deaths. You'd start thinking pretty carefully about whether you wanted to attempt to run through content like lightning because if you pushed it too hard you might never live to see the day where your character entered Epic fantasyland.
Perhaps you have to prove yourself to the Gods, who have given you only a certain number of chances to impress them (i.e. achieve some goal) prior to granting you the much sought-after immortality.
Impermance in a MMORG is something that needs to be explored further as a concept rather than discarded because it is not understood very well and thus hated and feared.
Really, I like some of the discussions here because they remind me of how much better ALL the games today are than what I had to play as a kid. From computer games with text based avatars using the - key as a bullet, to offline games like 'beat each other with sticks.'
Edit: actually I quite liked that game, but when we moved from the city to the burbs the kids were dramatically more sissified.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time. Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
You are so true! I mean I understand when you grow older you are used to your old ways. I know I do in some parts. But even as elder person you should accept that some things in the past where not so rosy as the imagination makes it. I am so tired of all those veterans talking about UO like granny talks about the war and back in 1940 the world was way better...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time. Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
You are so true! I mean I understand when you grow older you are used to your old ways. I know I do in some parts. But even as elder person you should accept that some things in the past where not so rosy as the imagination makes it. I am so tired of all those veterans talking about UO like granny talks about the war and back in 1940 the world was way better...
My perspective is its the difference of people who stayed subscribed to a game for 5 years... 7 years without a break...
as opposed to the "modern" mmo they have a problem staying subbed past the first month.
So by the logic I often see they no longer enjoy games is the problem as opposed to most just aren't as good. Yet when I find a game I do like I play it just like I used to play UO (great example for me) that "do like" part just doesn't last anywhere near as long now.
Why do we see older games as better? Because they were. They were made for fun and fun to make.
They were not made to maximize profit, they were developed by small studios full of people who did what they did for the joy of it. They didn't figure how many play hours the player would get out of it, or how much of their content should be DLC or "visible, yet available only when unlocked with an expansion." They just thought of something cool and went about their business making it happen.
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time. Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
Nope I don't. My first MMO is UO beta and it was a bad game. My second is EQ and i could not stand the camping and down-time. And i like modern MMOs like WOW much much better. So no nostalgia here.
UO was a bad game? Being able to do virtually anything you want, from sheer sheep, to sail in a boat and find sunken treasure, do raids, quest, PvP, dye your clothes, interact with items in the world... that was a bad game?
Sorry, I think you need to look up the difference between "I don't like something" and "Something is a bad game"
Very bad game. You get Pk-ed everywhere. Mining means click click click on a ROCK for hours (that is just BAD design). All the mining caves are full of people (where is the adventure)?
Do virtually anything i want does not makes a good game if most things that can be done are BORING. Why would I want to DYE clothes in my fantasy game? I want to go fight dragons and have adventures. There is a reason why EQ is 5x more popular than UO once it came out. Despite all its faults, it is a BETTER game. You interact with the game LESS (the game focuses on hack-n-slash & progression other than all these worthless freedoms) but it is more fun because the combat mechanics are better done.
The reason more people played EQ was because it was a much simpler game, and you didn't get killed by other people. Same reason people think WoW is addictive. Difference is, EQ was innovative, deep, and social when it came out. WoW was just a simplified knock off, so it doesn't get a free pass for using the same game model as EQ.
Lots of people care about owning a house, dying their armor and clothes, going treasure hunting, crafting, making their own mark on the world, and truly customizing their character. Does not make it a bad game to have options, simply makes the game more diverse, doesn't take away from anything at all to have the options there.
Oh, and in the 12 years since UO came out, people still haven't found a way to make gathering interesting, and I doubt you could if you tried. In fact, its even worse now, because at least in UO, there was the danger of being attacked.
That two element themselves were responsible for a huge improvement in gameplay. WOW further improves on it by getting rid of down-time, add in quest leveling, and make the whole experiences much more fun.
And when you say "lots" .. you must be a few, but not enough to move the market because few cares about housing or dying clothes in WOW .. and it has 11M players. Options themselves are not bad. But boring options that few wants .. take resources from developers who should focus on the CORE .. meaning combat & dungeons.
And if no one can make gathering interesting, get rid of it .. or make it less a prominent part of the game. No one wants uninteresting mechanics in a game.
I'd say everyone who plays Eve and UO enjoys extremely uninteresting mechanics in their game=)
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time. Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
Nope I don't. My first MMO is UO beta and it was a bad game. My second is EQ and i could not stand the camping and down-time. And i like modern MMOs like WOW much much better. So no nostalgia here.
UO was a bad game? Being able to do virtually anything you want, from sheer sheep, to sail in a boat and find sunken treasure, do raids, quest, PvP, dye your clothes, interact with items in the world... that was a bad game?
Sorry, I think you need to look up the difference between "I don't like something" and "Something is a bad game"
Very bad game. You get Pk-ed everywhere. Mining means click click click on a ROCK for hours (that is just BAD design). All the mining caves are full of people (where is the adventure)?
Do virtually anything i want does not makes a good game if most things that can be done are BORING. Why would I want to DYE clothes in my fantasy game? I want to go fight dragons and have adventures. There is a reason why EQ is 5x more popular than UO once it came out. Despite all its faults, it is a BETTER game. You interact with the game LESS (the game focuses on hack-n-slash & progression other than all these worthless freedoms) but it is more fun because the combat mechanics are better done.
The reason more people played EQ was because it was a much simpler game, and you didn't get killed by other people. Same reason people think WoW is addictive. Difference is, EQ was innovative, deep, and social when it came out. WoW was just a simplified knock off, so it doesn't get a free pass for using the same game model as EQ.
Lots of people care about owning a house, dying their armor and clothes, going treasure hunting, crafting, making their own mark on the world, and truly customizing their character. Does not make it a bad game to have options, simply makes the game more diverse, doesn't take away from anything at all to have the options there.
Oh, and in the 12 years since UO came out, people still haven't found a way to make gathering interesting, and I doubt you could if you tried. In fact, its even worse now, because at least in UO, there was the danger of being attacked.
That two element themselves were responsible for a huge improvement in gameplay. WOW further improves on it by getting rid of down-time, add in quest leveling, and make the whole experiences much more fun.
And when you say "lots" .. you must be a few, but not enough to move the market because few cares about housing or dying clothes in WOW .. and it has 11M players. Options themselves are not bad. But boring options that few wants .. take resources from developers who should focus on the CORE .. meaning combat & dungeons.
And if no one can make gathering interesting, get rid of it .. or make it less a prominent part of the game. No one wants uninteresting mechanics in a game.
I'd say everyone who plays Eve and UO enjoys extremely uninteresting mechanics in their game=)
Down time was a good thing. It encouraged people to find groups, made you think twice before charging into battle, and gave you a few moments to talk with the people you were fighting with.
Quest based grinding is not a good thing, because the story element, the immersion, the importance of each quest, is dimished, because its just a bunch of people clicking whoever has a glowing thing over their head or under their feet, then running to the glowing waypoint, killing a random 5 mobs, and running back.
That's not fun.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
The way I think about it -- what you started with is what you remember fondly, because it was all new to you. That's one thing going on -- the types of things you first start with are the ones that stick in your memory. It's understandable. I have incredibly fond memories of some past experiences in my life. Looking back, it was the experience itself, and all that surrounded it. It was new, and we were younger. I can even translate this to the work world -- working all night on a work thing -- but we were young and it seemed so important and it was new, and we believed in it. And that was work, not even play time, and I remember if fondly. There's an intensity about one's first time with something -- you can never get that back.
It also seems to me that the "old time" MMORPGers, though not necessarily old in age - you must have had the free time, and the tight social network of people more or less like yourself to do these game justice. We are talking camping for 4 to 6 hours, right, also having to group, also a rough death penalty, and in some games, unrestricted PvP. And it worked for you. How the game was structured, and how you were at the time, it came together -- and so you liked it.
I got my start with a different MMO from the ones listed here, but only back in 2003, and as someone older than many of you. My first experience with an MMO was magical, for many reasons, one of them was because it was the first , it was beautiful and the people were good. Then I drifted into more standard MMORPGs, but only the newer ones. They work for me. I'm a more casual player, I don't like forced grouping, and I can't stand a rough death penalty. I can't commit the time to very long playing sessions, consistently. I like some of the changes in the MMORPG landscape because there are now games that I can play. I don't have that background of "back in the day" of the original Everquest and UO, and I can play some of the game sof today, they work for me.
But you know, I regard myself as just as legitimate a player as the old timers -- just different. And what I strongly object to is the designation of "dumber" in MMORPGs. Games that have a more streamlined interface, games where something doesn't take as long -- it's a different design decision. Making gameplay "easier" -- does not make it dumber, or less good.. The focus is on something different, and as we all know, simplifying something is not easy -- many design challenges. I don't want to fight the interface, and I enjoy knowing where to pick up my quests.
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
AO *was* allmost perfect,you really required brains to make your character good and operational.
in games nowadays it is better that you leave your brains to rack for hanging items before you start playing.
It's pretty universal. We tend to forget the bad and only remember the good. I still have fond memories of classic RPGs and old video games. I keep forgetting that all games, not just RPGs and MMO's, were very "grindy". I think that all the advancements that have been made are a good thing. We keep forgetting that if we had to go back to UO Classic where you spent 1 week fishing so that you could have enough money to buy a sword only to have all of your shit taken from you by bands of PK's hanging outside of the starting town, that very few people would be playing these games. The fact is that all of the popularity has lead to innovation and variety of games.
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time. Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
Nope I don't. My first MMO is UO beta and it was a bad game. My second is EQ and i could not stand the camping and down-time. And i like modern MMOs like WOW much much better. So no nostalgia here.
UO was a bad game? Being able to do virtually anything you want, from sheer sheep, to sail in a boat and find sunken treasure, do raids, quest, PvP, dye your clothes, interact with items in the world... that was a bad game?
Sorry, I think you need to look up the difference between "I don't like something" and "Something is a bad game"
Very bad game. You get Pk-ed everywhere. Mining means click click click on a ROCK for hours (that is just BAD design). All the mining caves are full of people (where is the adventure)?
Do virtually anything i want does not makes a good game if most things that can be done are BORING. Why would I want to DYE clothes in my fantasy game? I want to go fight dragons and have adventures. There is a reason why EQ is 5x more popular than UO once it came out. Despite all its faults, it is a BETTER game. You interact with the game LESS (the game focuses on hack-n-slash & progression other than all these worthless freedoms) but it is more fun because the combat mechanics are better done.
The reason more people played EQ was because it was a much simpler game, and you didn't get killed by other people. Same reason people think WoW is addictive. Difference is, EQ was innovative, deep, and social when it came out. WoW was just a simplified knock off, so it doesn't get a free pass for using the same game model as EQ.
Lots of people care about owning a house, dying their armor and clothes, going treasure hunting, crafting, making their own mark on the world, and truly customizing their character. Does not make it a bad game to have options, simply makes the game more diverse, doesn't take away from anything at all to have the options there.
Oh, and in the 12 years since UO came out, people still haven't found a way to make gathering interesting, and I doubt you could if you tried. In fact, its even worse now, because at least in UO, there was the danger of being attacked.
That two element themselves were responsible for a huge improvement in gameplay. WOW further improves on it by getting rid of down-time, add in quest leveling, and make the whole experiences much more fun.
And when you say "lots" .. you must be a few, but not enough to move the market because few cares about housing or dying clothes in WOW .. and it has 11M players. Options themselves are not bad. But boring options that few wants .. take resources from developers who should focus on the CORE .. meaning combat & dungeons.
And if no one can make gathering interesting, get rid of it .. or make it less a prominent part of the game. No one wants uninteresting mechanics in a game.
I'd say everyone who plays Eve and UO enjoys extremely uninteresting mechanics in their game=)
Then correction .. Only a MINORITY of players wants uninteresting mechanics in their games. Given UO is like 1/5 size of EQ at its height and Eve only at around 300k .. that would be true.
Down time was a good thing. It encouraged people to find groups, made you think twice before charging into battle, and gave you a few moments to talk with the people you were fighting with.
Quest based grinding is not a good thing, because the story element, the immersion, the importance of each quest, is dimished, because its just a bunch of people clicking whoever has a glowing thing over their head or under their feet, then running to the glowing waypoint, killing a random 5 mobs, and running back.
That's not fun.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
I used to be like OOOOH it used to be so much more diffucult back in EQ etc etc etc. While there are some things that have been taken away or simply not used that I would like to see again, there is a lot of things I am glad are gone.
Things that are gone and I'm happy for it
1) Unbelieveable amounts of grinding.
2) Extreme death penalties on "hell levels"
3) Corpse runs to the bottom of a dungeon for 5 hours after a raid wiped
4) No maps/crappy maps. I only use the map in a game when I need to and not as life support to my navigation. I still remember where things are and can get around w/o the map but its nice to hit "M" and open a well-made map
5) Extremely long camps for named mobs and hoping for a drop.
Things I wish had stayed around but didnt(some much contradict the ones above but I'll clear that up)
1) Real world dungeons. Instances have their use but some dungeons with named mobs should coexist with Instances
2) Some kind of penalty to death. I dont want corpse runs but maybe some exp loss(very minor like 2% of a level)
3) Hell levels. I would like to see hell levels without the extreme exp loss
4) Camps. I want to go into a non-instanced dungeon get a group and chill in the spot while we pull mobs to our camp. This was a crucial part of my enjoyment in EQ. Also camps for named mobs should exist in these dungeons and instead of a 1/15 chance of the mob poping and 14/15 chance of a place holder every 15 mins, something less like 1/4 chance every 5-10 mins. This would theoretically have the named pop every 20-30 mins.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
I don't beleive WoW's crafting is a detailed as this.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
WoW rox EQ/EQ2 for some very simple reasons.
1. WoW has Mr. T hand grenades, foo. Don't question that, sucka.
2. WoW has a bigger player base and as we all know, what is popular is always what is right.
3. WoW's world design is 100X more detailed than EQ's cough...*BS*...cough. Yeah, my throat has been acting up, I think it's allergies. Of course if I weren't pouring over spreadsheets on "world detail data" in the middle of this grand field of poppies, and if it weren't so darn dry out I'd probably feel a whole lot better. Yep, says it right here at the bottom: final poly comparison WoW: 278,331,465,212 to EQ 2,643,244,104. You better head back to the drawing board, Smed.
4. Gameplay is more challenging=it takes effort to experience content in WoW versus EQ/EQ2. And as we all know the best part of road tripping cross country is the destination, not the journey. It would be a whole lot better if we just had Star Trek transporter beams and could hit a button and be at the Grand Canyon or Arches National Park, look around for a few minutes, call it a day and then hit a button and return to our sofa. Isn't it obvious that having more content that you can play through faster is better, especially considering that that's the way most people are voting when they're encouraged by advertising to do so?
This isn't an apple to an orange comparison, people. You're comparing whole worlds which are as different as comparing books. You're essentially comparing the Harry Potter series to The Lord of the Rings. How is that reasonable? Yes, Harry Potter made a fat lot of cash super fast, and if making cash is the gold standard of how good something is then J.K. Rowling is the Crown Queen of the fantasy genre and WoW is King of MMORGs. If getting kids to read is the standard, she did a good job there, too, as does WoW. If establishing races to see how fast junior could race through 1000 pages of fluff (relative to, say for example, the material in Moby Dick) then it's J.K. all the way and it's WoW's 3 day race to level 80 and Epic gear. You just can't compare a fingerpainting class to technical drawing no matter how fun it is to get your hands and face smeared in purple paint, and doing so marks you a WoWer because you're coming from a position where understanding is not a prerequisite to entertainment. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that WoWers will call WoW the best for the same reason that a puppy will consider chewing a shoe the best. Nothing more complicated needs to exist to entertain the puppy. It's Miller High Life vs. a fine wine any day. Ain't the objective to get drunk, Huck?
I enjoyed the "good 'ol days", they were really fun and I'll always remember it. EQ1 got me into MMO's, and from there on I spent 5 years in EQ1 & AC1, and probably 3 or so in DAOC. They were great fun back in the days.
But today I'm also thoroughly enjoying WoW. It doesn't have to be either or, a gamer does not have to either like old school or new gen. A gamer can like both, enjoy both, and perhaps like me lived through both and had fun in both. Old school does not mean outdated or bad, just like new gen does not mean new & better. People should only judge a game based on their own experiences and whether they like playing a game or not. People should not judge a game based on whether it's old school style or WoW-style or anything else.
I hate the generalizations that WoW is for kids, or that its playerbase is more immature than others, or that the game is only for people looking for ezmode. At the same time I hate the generalization that old school means bad, old, outdated, masochist, or it's only for people that want forced grouping.
Comments
You said it yourself (in an odd way): fire up DAOC ... today and it's rather pathetic to play.
From the very boring beginnings to the complete empty servers to play it on.
Unless you like having 9 people logged in to wage a "massive" war with terrible animated avatars.
To all those: just relaunch your old classics and be convinced it is only nostalgia that plays.
For new players these decade old games are a freightening experience .
These people won't even understand what you are talking about.
It is like a 12 year old kid watching PacMan and saying "Is this what you played all day long grandpa ???"
Of course WOW 2010 beats them with one finger. Just fire up and see what your mind paints and ... what reality tells you when reviewing them.
I give you 10 minutes before closing the monitor with a sigh...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Man I wish you could read financial reports ... and stopped having nightmares about succes.
The WOW money was in 2009 coming to 1.23 billion dollars, just like the year before and 400 million more than 3 years ago etc...
I would like to have a dream which made me 1.23 billion dollars of "real" money a year.
Yes and that money comes from gamers.
Gamers that left old ones. Why? because these couldn't hold a candle against Blizz HQ product.
Simple. Nostalgia doesn't make money, not a penny.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
"Back in my day..."
...when we did "stuff"...
We didn't have to worry about owning the right gear or getting achievements, and we didn't follow a "go here to win" signpost to complete quests. We logged in and did what we felt like doing, with the goals given us as mere guides. We could get lost, we could find something new and intriguing, we could make new friends in the wilderness.
That doesn't happen anymore. We're all too busy trying to get from A to B to notice anything cool, the goals we're given are mandatory and absolute as if the job is all there is to do.
Players are greedy, quests are jobs, and the world is a corporate theme park.
That's a casino, my friends.
The people who "play" in them are addicted, wasting their money on a second job that pays in the red.
Well, you're right in some areas, wrong in others. What the main difference between now and early gaming is, gaming is now mainstream. A lot of Pc game developers got pulled along in to going mainstream doing cross platform leaving fewer developers creating games to the full potential of the current Pc hardware.
As a result a genre that once had far more depth in the past has had more titles made xplat and streamlined for more simplicity to appeal the mainstream leaving fewer titles of the genre that are Pc exclusive and of the depth expected from Pc gamers...
One day pretty soon you'll be the older gamer too telling the younger generation how it was when you start looking for more depth in your gaming and start discovering the gems of the past. Time waits for no man or boy and you'll be older soon enough, maybe if you're lucky,life is very short filled with a path of obstacles.
The word "mainstream" has nothing to do with it. That just means it's popular and accessible - a thought of the general majority.
Why do we see older games as better? Because they were. They were made for fun and fun to make.
They were not made to maximize profit, they were developed by small studios full of people who did what they did for the joy of it. They didn't figure how many play hours the player would get out of it, or how much of their content should be DLC or "visible, yet available only when unlocked with an expansion." They just thought of something cool and went about their business making it happen.
Those studios are gone.
It's not the gamers that have changed, it's the developers. They've become goal-invested patrons of corporate greed, trading their legacy and fan loyalty for a predictable paycheck. However, it is not all their fault. They needed the money to do what they love... and that is in where the corruption seeps. They're victims just as much as their playerbases are, working at their activities instead of enjoying it.
The publishers that reign over studios exist to make money, and they use them to produce products with which to do just that. They don't care if any of it is good or bad, they just want something to put on a plastic disc or encrypt with a code that they can sell to consumers. They exist to corral money out of the public and beat the horse they ride until it dies while doing it.
So you want to know the difference between "now" and "then?"
Corporate infestation - from investing in a process to investing in a goal.
Developers used to make games for the fun of making games, now they do it for money.
Their target market used to play games for the love of playing games, now they aim for those who do it to get to the next level.
See any parallels here?
You should. Games have become work to play, and it's no coincidence.
The good old days...
The human brain usualy remember the old stuff better than it was, get over it, old mmos weren't better, just you remember them better. Now try to continue being young in your soul and have fun playing the new ones.
The Gold ol days are just that.. good ol days.
Simply put, Games need to be better quality. Today's MMO are crap because they lack the "fun" value that the old games had. The catering to solo is the problem. EVeryone screams they want to solo.. so the gamei s dumbed down to allow all classes to solo. When you could always solo in MMO, it was harder and required more skill in the early games.
With the solo aspect comes a new breed of idiots. The Antisocial crowd who just solo's and doesn't know how to ineract with others.
The games back in the day not only had much better gameplay but also better social structures. Sure updates in UI, graphics are nice... but at the servere cost of gameplay.
You telling me that a 2010 Mustang is better then one of the older models?
Brilliant post, and it doesn't surprise me that someone with it as close to 100% right as I've seen it could finish WoW as fast as you claim here. You're spot on: most Americans are stupid and lazy now. Most require spoon feeding and cannot muster enough mental energy to get the attention they seek by doing anything other than pulling their pants down to their knees so that if a rabid pitbull comes around the corner they're doing anything but attempting to manage a scrambling crawl off the sidewalk having fallen on their faces in a vain attempt to briskly walk away from danger.
Games are de-evolving in the same way that life itself is de-evolving. We're so concerned that everyone succeeds that we miss the point that if everyone succeeds, no one really does. We miss the point that without penalty, the absence of reward becomes equivalent to penalty, and rewards become more hollow.
Death penalty in MMORGs...re-examine it. I mean actually use your brain cells for more than twenty seconds and THINK about what it would mean. Not, obviously, if only that game dynamic changed, but if that dynamic changed and altered other dynamics as well. Perhaps each time your character dies you permanently become 1% weaker. Perhaps you only get ten deaths. You'd start thinking pretty carefully about whether you wanted to attempt to run through content like lightning because if you pushed it too hard you might never live to see the day where your character entered Epic fantasyland.
Perhaps you have to prove yourself to the Gods, who have given you only a certain number of chances to impress them (i.e. achieve some goal) prior to granting you the much sought-after immortality.
Impermance in a MMORG is something that needs to be explored further as a concept rather than discarded because it is not understood very well and thus hated and feared.
The risk begets the reward.
Really, I like some of the discussions here because they remind me of how much better ALL the games today are than what I had to play as a kid. From computer games with text based avatars using the - key as a bullet, to offline games like 'beat each other with sticks.'
Edit: actually I quite liked that game, but when we moved from the city to the burbs the kids were dramatically more sissified.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
You are so true! I mean I understand when you grow older you are used to your old ways. I know I do in some parts. But even as elder person you should accept that some things in the past where not so rosy as the imagination makes it. I am so tired of all those veterans talking about UO like granny talks about the war and back in 1940 the world was way better...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You are so true! I mean I understand when you grow older you are used to your old ways. I know I do in some parts. But even as elder person you should accept that some things in the past where not so rosy as the imagination makes it. I am so tired of all those veterans talking about UO like granny talks about the war and back in 1940 the world was way better...
My perspective is its the difference of people who stayed subscribed to a game for 5 years... 7 years without a break...
as opposed to the "modern" mmo they have a problem staying subbed past the first month.
So by the logic I often see they no longer enjoy games is the problem as opposed to most just aren't as good. Yet when I find a game I do like I play it just like I used to play UO (great example for me) that "do like" part just doesn't last anywhere near as long now.
/shrug
Now ask yourself why those studios are gone.
BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T MAKE MONEY!
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Nope I don't. My first MMO is UO beta and it was a bad game. My second is EQ and i could not stand the camping and down-time. And i like modern MMOs like WOW much much better. So no nostalgia here.
UO was a bad game? Being able to do virtually anything you want, from sheer sheep, to sail in a boat and find sunken treasure, do raids, quest, PvP, dye your clothes, interact with items in the world... that was a bad game?
Sorry, I think you need to look up the difference between "I don't like something" and "Something is a bad game"
Very bad game. You get Pk-ed everywhere. Mining means click click click on a ROCK for hours (that is just BAD design). All the mining caves are full of people (where is the adventure)?
Do virtually anything i want does not makes a good game if most things that can be done are BORING. Why would I want to DYE clothes in my fantasy game? I want to go fight dragons and have adventures. There is a reason why EQ is 5x more popular than UO once it came out. Despite all its faults, it is a BETTER game. You interact with the game LESS (the game focuses on hack-n-slash & progression other than all these worthless freedoms) but it is more fun because the combat mechanics are better done.
The reason more people played EQ was because it was a much simpler game, and you didn't get killed by other people. Same reason people think WoW is addictive. Difference is, EQ was innovative, deep, and social when it came out. WoW was just a simplified knock off, so it doesn't get a free pass for using the same game model as EQ.
Lots of people care about owning a house, dying their armor and clothes, going treasure hunting, crafting, making their own mark on the world, and truly customizing their character. Does not make it a bad game to have options, simply makes the game more diverse, doesn't take away from anything at all to have the options there.
Oh, and in the 12 years since UO came out, people still haven't found a way to make gathering interesting, and I doubt you could if you tried. In fact, its even worse now, because at least in UO, there was the danger of being attacked.
That two element themselves were responsible for a huge improvement in gameplay. WOW further improves on it by getting rid of down-time, add in quest leveling, and make the whole experiences much more fun.
And when you say "lots" .. you must be a few, but not enough to move the market because few cares about housing or dying clothes in WOW .. and it has 11M players. Options themselves are not bad. But boring options that few wants .. take resources from developers who should focus on the CORE .. meaning combat & dungeons.
And if no one can make gathering interesting, get rid of it .. or make it less a prominent part of the game. No one wants uninteresting mechanics in a game.
I'd say everyone who plays Eve and UO enjoys extremely uninteresting mechanics in their game=)
Nope I don't. My first MMO is UO beta and it was a bad game. My second is EQ and i could not stand the camping and down-time. And i like modern MMOs like WOW much much better. So no nostalgia here.
UO was a bad game? Being able to do virtually anything you want, from sheer sheep, to sail in a boat and find sunken treasure, do raids, quest, PvP, dye your clothes, interact with items in the world... that was a bad game?
Sorry, I think you need to look up the difference between "I don't like something" and "Something is a bad game"
Very bad game. You get Pk-ed everywhere. Mining means click click click on a ROCK for hours (that is just BAD design). All the mining caves are full of people (where is the adventure)?
Do virtually anything i want does not makes a good game if most things that can be done are BORING. Why would I want to DYE clothes in my fantasy game? I want to go fight dragons and have adventures. There is a reason why EQ is 5x more popular than UO once it came out. Despite all its faults, it is a BETTER game. You interact with the game LESS (the game focuses on hack-n-slash & progression other than all these worthless freedoms) but it is more fun because the combat mechanics are better done.
The reason more people played EQ was because it was a much simpler game, and you didn't get killed by other people. Same reason people think WoW is addictive. Difference is, EQ was innovative, deep, and social when it came out. WoW was just a simplified knock off, so it doesn't get a free pass for using the same game model as EQ.
Lots of people care about owning a house, dying their armor and clothes, going treasure hunting, crafting, making their own mark on the world, and truly customizing their character. Does not make it a bad game to have options, simply makes the game more diverse, doesn't take away from anything at all to have the options there.
Oh, and in the 12 years since UO came out, people still haven't found a way to make gathering interesting, and I doubt you could if you tried. In fact, its even worse now, because at least in UO, there was the danger of being attacked.
That two element themselves were responsible for a huge improvement in gameplay. WOW further improves on it by getting rid of down-time, add in quest leveling, and make the whole experiences much more fun.
And when you say "lots" .. you must be a few, but not enough to move the market because few cares about housing or dying clothes in WOW .. and it has 11M players. Options themselves are not bad. But boring options that few wants .. take resources from developers who should focus on the CORE .. meaning combat & dungeons.
And if no one can make gathering interesting, get rid of it .. or make it less a prominent part of the game. No one wants uninteresting mechanics in a game.
I'd say everyone who plays Eve and UO enjoys extremely uninteresting mechanics in their game=)
Down time was a good thing. It encouraged people to find groups, made you think twice before charging into battle, and gave you a few moments to talk with the people you were fighting with.
Quest based grinding is not a good thing, because the story element, the immersion, the importance of each quest, is dimished, because its just a bunch of people clicking whoever has a glowing thing over their head or under their feet, then running to the glowing waypoint, killing a random 5 mobs, and running back.
That's not fun.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
The way I think about it -- what you started with is what you remember fondly, because it was all new to you. That's one thing going on -- the types of things you first start with are the ones that stick in your memory. It's understandable. I have incredibly fond memories of some past experiences in my life. Looking back, it was the experience itself, and all that surrounded it. It was new, and we were younger. I can even translate this to the work world -- working all night on a work thing -- but we were young and it seemed so important and it was new, and we believed in it. And that was work, not even play time, and I remember if fondly. There's an intensity about one's first time with something -- you can never get that back.
It also seems to me that the "old time" MMORPGers, though not necessarily old in age - you must have had the free time, and the tight social network of people more or less like yourself to do these game justice. We are talking camping for 4 to 6 hours, right, also having to group, also a rough death penalty, and in some games, unrestricted PvP. And it worked for you. How the game was structured, and how you were at the time, it came together -- and so you liked it.
I got my start with a different MMO from the ones listed here, but only back in 2003, and as someone older than many of you. My first experience with an MMO was magical, for many reasons, one of them was because it was the first , it was beautiful and the people were good. Then I drifted into more standard MMORPGs, but only the newer ones. They work for me. I'm a more casual player, I don't like forced grouping, and I can't stand a rough death penalty. I can't commit the time to very long playing sessions, consistently. I like some of the changes in the MMORPG landscape because there are now games that I can play. I don't have that background of "back in the day" of the original Everquest and UO, and I can play some of the game sof today, they work for me.
But you know, I regard myself as just as legitimate a player as the old timers -- just different. And what I strongly object to is the designation of "dumber" in MMORPGs. Games that have a more streamlined interface, games where something doesn't take as long -- it's a different design decision. Making gameplay "easier" -- does not make it dumber, or less good.. The focus is on something different, and as we all know, simplifying something is not easy -- many design challenges. I don't want to fight the interface, and I enjoy knowing where to pick up my quests.
Regards,
mszv
AO *was* allmost perfect,you really required brains to make your character good and operational.
in games nowadays it is better that you leave your brains to rack for hanging items before you start playing.
Generation P
It's pretty universal. We tend to forget the bad and only remember the good. I still have fond memories of classic RPGs and old video games. I keep forgetting that all games, not just RPGs and MMO's, were very "grindy". I think that all the advancements that have been made are a good thing. We keep forgetting that if we had to go back to UO Classic where you spent 1 week fishing so that you could have enough money to buy a sword only to have all of your shit taken from you by bands of PK's hanging outside of the starting town, that very few people would be playing these games. The fact is that all of the popularity has lead to innovation and variety of games.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
Your first anything is usually remembered as the best.....
Nope I don't. My first MMO is UO beta and it was a bad game. My second is EQ and i could not stand the camping and down-time. And i like modern MMOs like WOW much much better. So no nostalgia here.
UO was a bad game? Being able to do virtually anything you want, from sheer sheep, to sail in a boat and find sunken treasure, do raids, quest, PvP, dye your clothes, interact with items in the world... that was a bad game?
Sorry, I think you need to look up the difference between "I don't like something" and "Something is a bad game"
Very bad game. You get Pk-ed everywhere. Mining means click click click on a ROCK for hours (that is just BAD design). All the mining caves are full of people (where is the adventure)?
Do virtually anything i want does not makes a good game if most things that can be done are BORING. Why would I want to DYE clothes in my fantasy game? I want to go fight dragons and have adventures. There is a reason why EQ is 5x more popular than UO once it came out. Despite all its faults, it is a BETTER game. You interact with the game LESS (the game focuses on hack-n-slash & progression other than all these worthless freedoms) but it is more fun because the combat mechanics are better done.
The reason more people played EQ was because it was a much simpler game, and you didn't get killed by other people. Same reason people think WoW is addictive. Difference is, EQ was innovative, deep, and social when it came out. WoW was just a simplified knock off, so it doesn't get a free pass for using the same game model as EQ.
Lots of people care about owning a house, dying their armor and clothes, going treasure hunting, crafting, making their own mark on the world, and truly customizing their character. Does not make it a bad game to have options, simply makes the game more diverse, doesn't take away from anything at all to have the options there.
Oh, and in the 12 years since UO came out, people still haven't found a way to make gathering interesting, and I doubt you could if you tried. In fact, its even worse now, because at least in UO, there was the danger of being attacked.
That two element themselves were responsible for a huge improvement in gameplay. WOW further improves on it by getting rid of down-time, add in quest leveling, and make the whole experiences much more fun.
And when you say "lots" .. you must be a few, but not enough to move the market because few cares about housing or dying clothes in WOW .. and it has 11M players. Options themselves are not bad. But boring options that few wants .. take resources from developers who should focus on the CORE .. meaning combat & dungeons.
And if no one can make gathering interesting, get rid of it .. or make it less a prominent part of the game. No one wants uninteresting mechanics in a game.
I'd say everyone who plays Eve and UO enjoys extremely uninteresting mechanics in their game=)
Then correction .. Only a MINORITY of players wants uninteresting mechanics in their games. Given UO is like 1/5 size of EQ at its height and Eve only at around 300k .. that would be true.
Down time was a good thing. It encouraged people to find groups, made you think twice before charging into battle, and gave you a few moments to talk with the people you were fighting with.
Quest based grinding is not a good thing, because the story element, the immersion, the importance of each quest, is dimished, because its just a bunch of people clicking whoever has a glowing thing over their head or under their feet, then running to the glowing waypoint, killing a random 5 mobs, and running back.
That's not fun.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Agree 100%.
I used to be like OOOOH it used to be so much more diffucult back in EQ etc etc etc. While there are some things that have been taken away or simply not used that I would like to see again, there is a lot of things I am glad are gone.
Things that are gone and I'm happy for it
1) Unbelieveable amounts of grinding.
2) Extreme death penalties on "hell levels"
3) Corpse runs to the bottom of a dungeon for 5 hours after a raid wiped
4) No maps/crappy maps. I only use the map in a game when I need to and not as life support to my navigation. I still remember where things are and can get around w/o the map but its nice to hit "M" and open a well-made map
5) Extremely long camps for named mobs and hoping for a drop.
Things I wish had stayed around but didnt(some much contradict the ones above but I'll clear that up)
1) Real world dungeons. Instances have their use but some dungeons with named mobs should coexist with Instances
2) Some kind of penalty to death. I dont want corpse runs but maybe some exp loss(very minor like 2% of a level)
3) Hell levels. I would like to see hell levels without the extreme exp loss
4) Camps. I want to go into a non-instanced dungeon get a group and chill in the spot while we pull mobs to our camp. This was a crucial part of my enjoyment in EQ. Also camps for named mobs should exist in these dungeons and instead of a 1/15 chance of the mob poping and 14/15 chance of a place holder every 15 mins, something less like 1/4 chance every 5-10 mins. This would theoretically have the named pop every 20-30 mins.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
I don't beleive WoW's crafting is a detailed as this.
www.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
WoW rox EQ/EQ2 for some very simple reasons.
1. WoW has Mr. T hand grenades, foo. Don't question that, sucka.
2. WoW has a bigger player base and as we all know, what is popular is always what is right.
3. WoW's world design is 100X more detailed than EQ's cough...*BS*...cough. Yeah, my throat has been acting up, I think it's allergies. Of course if I weren't pouring over spreadsheets on "world detail data" in the middle of this grand field of poppies, and if it weren't so darn dry out I'd probably feel a whole lot better. Yep, says it right here at the bottom: final poly comparison WoW: 278,331,465,212 to EQ 2,643,244,104. You better head back to the drawing board, Smed.
4. Gameplay is more challenging=it takes effort to experience content in WoW versus EQ/EQ2. And as we all know the best part of road tripping cross country is the destination, not the journey. It would be a whole lot better if we just had Star Trek transporter beams and could hit a button and be at the Grand Canyon or Arches National Park, look around for a few minutes, call it a day and then hit a button and return to our sofa. Isn't it obvious that having more content that you can play through faster is better, especially considering that that's the way most people are voting when they're encouraged by advertising to do so?
This isn't an apple to an orange comparison, people. You're comparing whole worlds which are as different as comparing books. You're essentially comparing the Harry Potter series to The Lord of the Rings. How is that reasonable? Yes, Harry Potter made a fat lot of cash super fast, and if making cash is the gold standard of how good something is then J.K. Rowling is the Crown Queen of the fantasy genre and WoW is King of MMORGs. If getting kids to read is the standard, she did a good job there, too, as does WoW. If establishing races to see how fast junior could race through 1000 pages of fluff (relative to, say for example, the material in Moby Dick) then it's J.K. all the way and it's WoW's 3 day race to level 80 and Epic gear. You just can't compare a fingerpainting class to technical drawing no matter how fun it is to get your hands and face smeared in purple paint, and doing so marks you a WoWer because you're coming from a position where understanding is not a prerequisite to entertainment. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that WoWers will call WoW the best for the same reason that a puppy will consider chewing a shoe the best. Nothing more complicated needs to exist to entertain the puppy. It's Miller High Life vs. a fine wine any day. Ain't the objective to get drunk, Huck?
I enjoyed the "good 'ol days", they were really fun and I'll always remember it. EQ1 got me into MMO's, and from there on I spent 5 years in EQ1 & AC1, and probably 3 or so in DAOC. They were great fun back in the days.
But today I'm also thoroughly enjoying WoW. It doesn't have to be either or, a gamer does not have to either like old school or new gen. A gamer can like both, enjoy both, and perhaps like me lived through both and had fun in both. Old school does not mean outdated or bad, just like new gen does not mean new & better. People should only judge a game based on their own experiences and whether they like playing a game or not. People should not judge a game based on whether it's old school style or WoW-style or anything else.
I hate the generalizations that WoW is for kids, or that its playerbase is more immature than others, or that the game is only for people looking for ezmode. At the same time I hate the generalization that old school means bad, old, outdated, masochist, or it's only for people that want forced grouping.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO