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EVE online, RMT and the hidden cash shop
Neysu
Member Posts: 13
This thread is about CCP, EVE players and the Industries' denial to the simple fact that, CCP has a cash shop. You can buy ingame currency for IRL money.
A realisation struck me today.
I have been playing EVE since 2004, yet the only money that CCP has seen from me, was the original purchase of the boxed game and about 6 months of subscription money.
Since 2005 to present, I have been paying for my EVE subscription with Gametime cards, back before it was 'legal'.
I was giving other players hundreds of millions of ISK ingame, on the risky trust based transaction that the Gametime code they gave in return would work when i tried to credit my account.
This was before there was a forum specifically for trading Gametime for ISK, certainly before there was any technical system built into the website and ingame, before there was even any recognition publicly from any GMs that this was going on and most definitely before the most recent change of the "PLEX pilot licence" system was implemented.
Nostalgia time, An early fond memory of mine ingame was the destruction of ASCN. Two things stick out more boldly than the final assault... one, was having to move 12 characters and about 250bil isk of assets out of Paragon Soul.
The other, was losing access to the Complex that we had farmed and abused the broken mechanics of for around 9 months, which had helped to make myself and some friends filthy rich.
No, this is not an Epeen issue to do with how much ISK i had or have, it is merely setting a backdrop.
So, there is the background, now at that time i was also aware of the vast number of people who were buying Gametime cards purely for the purpose of selling them ingame in exchange for ISK to fund their war effort. They either didn't have time to Rat/Mission/Indy/Trade due to IRL commitments etc or simply were too lazy and wanted to non-stop pew pew. This of course incurred massive ISK costs in terms of lost ships/mods, warranting the Gametime card selling for ISK.
At that time, as i said, multitudes of players, in the larger corps and alliances (so i would assume many of the smaller/solo players also) were buying these gametime cards and selling them for ISK, it wasn't openly, widely discussed as it was a mixture of Taboo and the uncertainty of its legality (ingame terms, not criminal).
Skip forward to 2010.
A friend of mine recently returned to EVE and was relaying to me his shock and dismay at what EVE has become. After only a few days of being back in the game he was being asked "why are you wasting time on mission running for isk?" when he could simply buy and sell PLEX and get straight to the pew pew, therefore making the most out of his available leisure time.
For those of you unaware of what the PLEX system is, i point you to CCPs website:
http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=495
"an item that adds 30 days of game time to your EVE Online account. It can be converted from any game time code and, like any other item, it can be traded on the EVE market."
Basically, CCP has allowed any player of EVE online, to purchase a gametime card from CCP or a third party shop/vendor and then put that code up for sale inside of EVE, on the ingame markets, for ingame currency.
CCP gets the IRL money from one player, that player then gets ingame currency ISK and another player gets Game time for EVE.
In an indirect (not really THAT indirect...) way CCP has setup a cash shop for their ingame currency ISK.
Instead of battling RMT and ISK sellers, or finding another way of regulating the gametime code market that existed previously, they have given over to a covert cash shop.
Now i can understand both the Pros and the Cons in the arguments over this PLEX system. However, i will not accept anyone, whether EVE fanboi or simple gamer who will stand there and tell me that this is anything other than a cash shop.
Any player, at any time, can buy ISK (ingame currency) and then buy any item or ship that they desire.
"Oh wait!" you say, doesn't EVE have that nifty skill training thingy where you have to wait in real time to level up?
Well, yes, it does, however there is another aspect to this, CCP allows the buying and selling (trading) of ingame Characters on their forums for ISK (ingame currency)
So, not only can any player give CCP IRL money for any (unlimited?) amount of ingame currency (ISK) which enables them to buy any ship, any item, any module etc. But also, with this ISK, they can then buy any character available on the market, often these are some of the most skilled/experienced characters in the game.
This leaves us in a situation that exists, whether you want to continually game in denial or not, that is astonishing.
The major alliances and corps and i assume as mentioned above, many of the other smaller groups, are buying vast amounts of PLEX from CCP and then trading them ingame for ISK.
This is a cash shop.
Players are buying ingame currency from the makers of the game. (CCP ~ EVE)
Just lost a major engagement, no longer hold sovereignty on that system with the ISK printing machine (moon), all of your capital ships went kaboom?
NOT A PROBLEM!
Give CCP your credit card and you too can be swimming in ISK again!
No effort, no time spent ingame missioning or trading!
Of course i know and understand that there are stupidly wealthy players out there, some abused broken game mechanics back in the day and got rich, some rented out space to Pets and were never challenged, their moons printing out vast oceans of ISK and of course, some were even handed the ISK by CCP without any IRL money changing hands, these however are different discussions, most of which have been done time and again already.
Some question this raises, interestingly, are how much money does CCP make (lose?) by allowing these PLEX transactions? Would those players buying the gametime for ISK (ingame currency) not normally have the IRL money to be able to afford EVE? Or are they simply abusing the system and playing 'for free' ?
What about those hundreds (thousands?) of players who buy ingame currency (ISK) on a daily basis, how does this affect the turn of the tides of war? Are the victores those purely with bigger wallets IRL ?
How does all of this ISK (ingame currency) printing affect EVEs so called 'economy' ? CCP have even hired an economist to monitor and report on their much admired and respected 'economy'. But how can this all be taken with any kind of serious thought when we are aware of the ISK purchasing taking place?
This thread is about CCP, EVE players and the Industries' denial to the simple fact that, CCP has a cash shop. You can buy ingame currency for IRL money.
[Mod Edit]
Comments
At time of writing:
Jita -
191 plex for sale
price -
294mil isk each
30day gametime -
17.5$ approx
191 x 17.5$ = $3,342.5
Just in the Jita region alone, right at this moment, players have spent over $3, 300 on ingame currency.
That is sixteen (16) years of gametime.
You have to be really slow to think that selling game time is the same thing as having a cash shop. No where in New Eden does CCP sell any Item's.......So get over it and go home!
TLDR
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=549
AmmoAnywhere
Allows you to click an ingame button to instantly buy ammo. The ammo appears in your inventory and your credit card is billed.
Eve is a sort of cash shop game, but your not allowed to point that out. Expect to be flamed mercilessly by Eve players.
Oh don't worry, flame suit is on.
As the first response above clearly shows, people are happy to respond without reading the post, so i can't expect too much.
As is the title...
" Denial "
I would just like to point out that no such item exsist in eve. That was an april fools joke dev blog, incase you didnt realise.
Also, buying timecodes with rl money and selling them ingame is a viable option for people who want to buy diff characters. It takes a chunk out of fighting rmt when ccp provides a legal avenue..
If you buy uber pvp ships with money bought from gtcs you are esentially gambling, because every pvp engagement is a risk, you lose the ship you lose the isk.
Theres no problem here to be honest, sounds like your trying to make one, however =/
Brilliant.
Look at the date of the post (hint: April something day).
CCP does not lose any money thorugh PLEX transactions. Somebody had to buy a gametime code from them somewhere along the way, so they are paid for the gametime that the PLEX represents.
Also, PLEXes do not magically generate ISK. It is simply a reshuffling of the ISK already within the economy. The only things that introduce new ISK into the economy are missions, NPC trade routes, ratting, and complexes.
Complain that they support RMT all you want. I guess you could say that they do, but there is a very specific thing here you are missing: They support RMT when it is between them (the company providing the product, EVE) and the consumer (the player), not when it is between two players.
That post was an Aprils fools joke....Look at the date.
But it does show how silly your claims of a cash shop are.
BTW 47177 online today / 3342.5 plex in jita = just over 14.00 per player, or one month for every player. A month the player can do whatever they want with. The system is working just as planned and you are just wrong!
meh, didn't see the date on that.
Still the fact remains that you can buy isk. This does the same as any other cash shop; takes out the skill and gives an advantage to those with money to burn.
Also the whole plex for isk thing lets people with alot of ingame money PLAY FOR FREE. My old corp ceo had SIX accounts running didnt pay a dime in real life cash... made enough money blowing up scrubs in stain to have money for plexes AND pvp ships.
I also know about a dozen or so people (including myself) who have bought gtc en mass to get a good alt. Because training one takes forever. My alt char I got for about 10 bil she is a a great carrier / dread pilot.
Tax returns are great arent they?
OK, so you are saying that you justify and agree with players being able to buy ISK for IRL money in EVE, as they can right now?
No we're saying it's not a cash shop, and so far you have pretty much been wrong about everything you typed, so there really isn't any point in listening to you!
it's hardly a 'cash chop' when it's not CCP controling the prices, it's the playerbase.
Also if you fact in the fact that the 'seller' buys the same amount of gametime the 'buyer' is getting - CCP don't 'gain' anything from it it's not like it has tax on it or anything, all the PLEX does it techcially allow a player to buy someone elses paided gametime, yes it's a form of RMT but it's well within CCP's means to do so, seeing the like I said the market is totally player controled it's in a players own right to consider the fair price...
Most of your post relays on the fact players are 'buying' massive amounts of ISK, true, but sadly you've put too much importance of the 'value' of ISK in EVE, ISK does NOT unbalance the game even if one person holds billions, yes they could techcially buy 'the best' ships but you need the skills behind you to use them, ISK cannot give you 'insta' skills - it never will, you'll still need the same time everyone else had to get to use the ships, which you have pointed out, which in some ways is good...
However back to the first point - You failed to factor in the playerbase in your statments you are NOT buying ISK from CCP you are selling PLEX to the playerbase, once the demand goes down for PLEX prices have do too, therefor your '$15' of PLEX is actally worth less in ISK, so your never really 'swimming in ISK' as you say, hell as your own numbers pointed out theres a LOT of PLEX out there and you may not even get the sale you wanted, thus PLEX is fair and works.
You seem to sum up with claims that CCP have a 'cash shop' in EVE, as I've clearly pointed out by this - it simply is NOT a 'cash shop' CCP don't gain anything extra from PLEX that they wouldn't gain from just everyone subbing all it does to replace the sub cost for one person with ISK and another paids the actal sub in their place - As PLEXs are player controled CCP has no hand in it, so how can you call it a 'cash shop' when theres no value in it?
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Can you point out one thing i have said that is "wrong" ?
The post i quoted was making other points, he wasn't disagreeing with EVE having a cash shop....
CCP have given up on combatting RMT
They simply moved into selling currency themselves.
What you don't seem to get is that CCP doesn't create any isk to sell. All the isk that is used to buy a GTC is already in game, owned and earned by a player. It's no different than buying any other market on the item- selling a GTC "creates" as much ISK as does selling a battleship or a charge of ammo. IE, none. It takes isk already in game and changes the owner.
CCP benefits in that players who may not otherwise play or have as many accounts will have them, but not a single item or isk is added to the game by this method except what the players themselves earn through normal gameplay methods.
It's fun to deconstruct a wall of text in a few simple sentences.
How, exactly, is the possibility to exchange real money for isk covert? Who exactly is denying it? Last i checked it was pretty well known even outside of Eve and overtly advertised by ccp.
More importantly, how can something be covert if the developer is publicising it aggressively as method to take over the rmt business and turn it into good, solid profit while keeping control over the money flow? There were even press releases about it for crying out loud.
And what the heck does this have to do with denial in any way?
I give CCP my credit card, they give me a PLEX code.
I sell PLEX code for ingame currency.
15us$
250,000,000 isk
I have just bought that ISK, the only difference, as you and i have both mentioned is that it is not under the banner of
"CCPS ALL YOU CAN EAT ISK SHOP"
The point of whether CCP gain 'additional' IRL money from any transaction is moot, it is a cash shop. I pay IRL money, I get ISK.
I am completing this transaction through CCP, not a third party website of ISK sellers.
This isn't a bad point really, because EVE isn't like other games where you can buy an advantage. ISK is always nice to have, but skills in EVE can't really be bought or enhanced with ISK. Only time and knowledge can make you a skilled pilot, and Items in EVE are meant to be lost and deystroyed. It not like a lot of games where you get them back if you die. In EVE you WILL die and lose your Items. They hold no special meaning.
Sorry dude no Cash shop in EVE!
Yes i do... this game isnt like wow or other themepark games. Money and big ships does NOT equal skill. My corporation in eve quite often finds itself wardecking carebear alliances and industry corps in eve because they all have a tendijncy to fly big expensive ships and not know a damn thing about real pvp.
I cannot count the number of times iv invaded someones mission, stole from their can/wreck/loot, and got them to engage and end up popping their mission boat and scooping nice t2 and faction loot. Same goes for hulks, so many hulks have been killed over 10,000 units of veldspar its really quite funny... even got an orca once with my pilgrim, over a CAN OF ORE.
If you dont believe me just go watch kickahs videos, heres a link to his youtube page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgWD9r3sWJM&feature=channel
He was in our corp for a little while so I know very well how he roles. He is not that good a player at straight up "real deal" pvp engagements but for killing high value carebears with lots of money and no skill he is damned good. Youd be suprise what 2 merlin (TECH 1 frigs) with a bassy supporting them can do to people who have no real pvp experience.
So please whatever you do, let the people who want to buy isk with rl money continue to do so... I will enjoy the large amount of high value killmails and tears in local it inevitably brings...
Yes, it is fun to attempt to be condescending...
It is covert because it is a cash shop in disguise. Publicly talking about something under a different name or in disguise can still be covert, i'm sorry this slipped by you.
The denial is clearly shown by nearly every post so far.
The fact that no extra ISK is generated somehow invalidates it being a cash shop? Care to explain how?
The definition of a cash shop, ie. a shop where you buy something for cash ingame, now states that the item you are buying has to be created and not exist prior to your purchase?
The Denial goes on...
In eve, there is no such thing as "buying win" as in other games (wow & co). ISK and assets are temporary, and subject to total losses. Thus, there is no harm in allowing a limited ability to gain some ISK by letting other players play.
Also, it may be considered RMT, but it is not a "cash shop", as CCP isn't actually selling you anything ingame. It's merely giving you a subscription period that you may or may not trade with other players for ingame money (essentially, you pay someone else's monthly fee in exchange for some of his "work time").
It is a smart way to extend the playerbase, defeat illegal RMT, and give an opportunity to play even to people that can't afford a full subscription for some time (i usually pay the monthly fee, but i'm having some RL financial troubles now, and i'm using my ingame ISK reserves i earned mostly by trading in major hubs to extend my playtime, and that's very nice)...
You mean other than CCP having a cash shop?
I give CCP my credit card, they give me a PLEX code.
I sell PLEX code for ingame currency.
15us$
250,000,000 isk
I have just bought that ISK, the only difference, as you and i have both mentioned is that it is not under the banner of
"CCPS ALL YOU CAN EAT ISK SHOP"
The point of whether CCP gain 'additional' IRL money from any transaction is moot, it is a cash shop. I pay IRL money, I get ISK.
I am completing this transaction through CCP, not a third party website of ISK sellers.
I simplified my post as much as possible for you
I rather suspect that if Darkfall, WAR, AoC or any other mmo company were to begin selling in game currency, the same people defending Eve would be there to bash the decision as a sign of impending doom and corporate greed.