Tend to agree with the facepalm. I mean a lot of these mechanics aren't terrible -- or at least aren't terrible in isolation -- but some of them pop out as being questionable (especially from the underlying tone of the way they're worded.)
For example, "forced grouping" is just a terrible mindset for a game to be in. In early CoX it didn't feel forced, but rather you simply saw that grouping produced a faster rate of advancement on average (and much faster with a solid group) and so you ended up with a lot of grouping in that game. Plus they had all sorts of awesome mechanics for making groups easier to put together.
One thing that strikes me as outright a bad idea is multiplayer content that "takes hours". Raiding is a complete aberration, because it combines so many multiplicitively bad game mechanics yet is still reasonably popular. I suppose it's a testament to the driving force of character progression that people suffer through it at all. The longer it takes, the more players it takes, and the less ease with which players are able substitute in for missing players = the less likely multiplayer will work and be fun.
Also, Zero Instances + world PVP = zerg-focused PVP. I prefer "play to win" games to "zerg to win".
I dont think a lot of ppl do raids because they like it, but in games like WOW, its the only way to get the best gear, so you have no choice, I hate dongeons and raids (except city raids against players), but had to do them often for the gear, for unique trinkets for pvp, which was what i liked most.
Seriously, ever since the early 2000s, MMoRPGs haven't been evolving, they've been doing the opposite. No one is innovating anymore. All the new MMos are getting more and more less content, dumbed down, easier, and more unpolished. This is what I think the standard of MMoRPGs should be right now, I'm shocked it isn't, devs probably have the technology and money to do this:
Huge, open, beautiful world, with lots of detail.
Breahtaking graphics.
Good character look customization, atleast 10 times better than the bs all MMos have now.
No bugs.
No instances.
Forced grouping in the form of epic quests(quests the same or greater quality as single player RPGs) that can take hours, and have cutscenes(no more quest text) that can range from 2 minutes to 30 minutes. Far from the "kill 10 boars" we have now.
You wanna solo, you gotta grind, get much less exp and can't do the quests, sorry but this is a MMoRPG.
An amazing storyline that has you dieing waiting to see what happens next as you play.
A well thought out system on how to make finding groups really quick, something like an auto grouper but not as immersion breaking as WoW's dungeon finder.
Meaningful 3 faction PvP. Most areas wouldn't be open PvP, but a lot would be open PvP and some of your equipment would drop if you died, also there would be insentive to go into these zones, such as the best harvesting nodes/quest destinations, etc.
Faction based outpost/fort/village/whatever control where each of them a faction controls, said factions gets more benefits like exp gain.
Challenge. Risk vs reward, time/effort vs reward.
No clear objectives for quests, no showing the way to go on a map/compass, etc.
Exp loss death pentalty, item loss in some areas.
Challenging battles.
Battles should last atleast a minute, not a few seconds like in WoW.
Time it takes to get max level would be something like FFXI.
Something like Notorious Monsters like in FFXI.
Real time travel. Boats, wagon routes, etc. for fantasy. Trains, spaceships for sci-fi.
Combining a class level system like FFXI with a more indepth skill system like Darkfall and UO.
Random events, such as sandstorms, blizzards, tornados, cyclones, etc.
Dynamic weather.
Great AI like Ryzom.
Player based economy.
Local banks, meaning if you bank something in a bank, you can only take it out of that one
Useful and fun harvesting/crafting, but also allowing players to AFK while doing so.
Good driving/flying physics for vehicles if it's sci-fi
Requiring vehicles/horse pulled wagons to carry large amounts of items, such as when harvesting
Non-instanced player houses that can be placed almost anywhere, with lots of customization options.
No player/guild cities, so the official cities are populated. One main neutral city where most people would be, like FFXI has Jeuno, WoW has Orgrimmar.
I can't decide if combat should be like typical MMos, Zelda style, or FPS like Darkfall/FE
End-game consists of raiding, item progression, raising skills, PvP, end-game storylines/quests, leveling sub-jobs/classes using a whole new storyline with whole new quests, and the other stuff mentioned in this post.
No auction house, instead a market place with player owned shops. Players use a terminal to find what item they want, it tells them a random player shop which has that item. This would probably need instancing, maybe 100-200 shops per instance.
Comments? Do you agree/disagree or like/dislike the ideas?
First off, the title of this post should be "This is what I think MMOs should be like". Having said that, I give you credit for asking for consensus at the end.
- Huge, open beautiful world: huge, fine. Graphics are not that important to me, gameplay is far more.
- 10x better customization than any MMO on the market? Give it a few years at least.
- No bugs? Dream on. I doubt any game ever created in the history of video games has zero bugs.
- No instances? I'll pass. I'll take instances over spawn-camping and kill stealing any day. I like instances.
- Forced grouping? Screw that. I despise forced grouping, and soloability is the number one thing I look for in an mMorpg.
- I generally have no desire whatsoever to group in MMOs, but I don't care if others do.
- I have zero interest in PvP and certainly don't want any non-consentual PvP whatsoever.
- Challenge can be found in every MMO if you look for it. I want to feel powerful, and not challenged in the least by one or two mere minions.
- Exp loss? No thank you, I hate any kind of death penalty whatsoever.
- Battles should last a minute? Maybe against a boss or me vs 10 mobs, certainly not against a random minion. More like 5 seconds. I want to be waaaay more powerful than mere minions.
- Real-time travel only if it's fun AND I can do something productive while travelling. Otherwise, give me as much insta-travel as possible. If not, it's only cool the first few times, then it's dull.
- I hate raiding. If it's in the game, fine, but give me an alternative to equal quality loot.
- 200 shops? No thanks, I don't want to spend an hour shopping. Give me on AH very very conveniently placed where I can get everything.
Am I right? I am absolutely right for me. What one person likes in an MMO is not what another does. If there was an MMO such as you describe, I am certain I would not play.
Tend to agree with the facepalm. I mean a lot of these mechanics aren't terrible -- or at least aren't terrible in isolation -- but some of them pop out as being questionable (especially from the underlying tone of the way they're worded.)
For example, "forced grouping" is just a terrible mindset for a game to be in. In early CoX it didn't feel forced, but rather you simply saw that grouping produced a faster rate of advancement on average (and much faster with a solid group) and so you ended up with a lot of grouping in that game. Plus they had all sorts of awesome mechanics for making groups easier to put together.
One thing that strikes me as outright a bad idea is multiplayer content that "takes hours". Raiding is a complete aberration, because it combines so many multiplicitively bad game mechanics yet is still reasonably popular. I suppose it's a testament to the driving force of character progression that people suffer through it at all. The longer it takes, the more players it takes, and the less ease with which players are able substitute in for missing players = the less likely multiplayer will work and be fun.
Also, Zero Instances + world PVP = zerg-focused PVP. I prefer "play to win" games to "zerg to win".
What, it's better MMoRPGs be like the lame borefest WoW is? I'm not gunna bother explaining what's wrong with WoW, but that game is unplayable after a few months for people who have played better MMos and people who play longer than 1 hour a day.
How are these features technically and financially impossible to make? Most of them are non-complicated things which have been done in previous MMos. The most expensive would be the single player RPG quality quests/storyline, successful MMo companies have this kind of money. These features aren't niche, it's all about advertisement and popularity whether a game is successful or not. If WoW was a MMo like this it'd have as much, if not more subscribers than it has now, and the subscribers wouldn't just be new players coming in and out and people playing 2 days a week like the majority of WoW's subscriber base.
The reason why WoW has the subs it does is because the way the game is made. Its easy enough a kid could play but yet it still has things for all the hardcore raiders. Not to mention it can play on just about any computer. Id have to think otherwise about WoW being even more popular if it had these ideas.
Forced grouping to do epic quests, and quests that take hours to complete? That I totally would love in a game, but in WoW you only really need to group up for a dungeon run and I only go to level 50 but every run I did was easy and quick. To me WoW feels kinda like a bunch of mini games with quick dungeons, solofest style questing and instanced PvP. The exact opposite of what you and I want in a game. But 11 million seem to like it and thats cool, to each their own.
Grouping gets best XP, that I like too, Im still playing FFXI. But do you think the WoW crowd likes that Idea? From what I gathered WoW players always like to progress their characters at a decent rate, thus the solofest. Compared to FFXI where if you get into a good party you can gain upwards of 9k EXP an hour. But you may be lucky to get 2k exp solo.
I could be wrong and maybe they may like these features they just don't know it yet. The thing that really gets me is the time people spend on WoW compared to FFXI. For WoW according to Xfire the average playtime comes down to just over 4 hours. FFXI sensus the 78% play 1-3 hours and 11% play 4-6 and 5% play 7-9 horus there is more but I would guess that its mostly just mules logged in to sell stuff.
So the majority of people play almost the same amount of time that the WoW players do but yet we find time to group up all most for everything we do. Like just last night I think I played 3 hours and was in a party for like 2 hours and got 2 levels almost 3. It just proves a point that the WoW crowd probably doesn't like downtime and likes the ability to progress their characters the same rate all the time. Thats just a guess but if Im right there is nothing wrong with being that way. I can't expect everyone to be like me.
If I LFG in FFXI I either solo stuff while waiting do some other random things I can do solo without gaining EXP like quests and missions or I just tab out watch some anime untill I get a group invite. Which usually isn't all that long, when you make friends in a game and you have the ability to do multiple jobs on one character and with level sync you should have no problem to find a party really quick. SE has made it so easy to group up even at lower levels, the dunes were packed the other day it was crazy.
I doubt that the average hours stated for WOW players is correct. I used to play 5 to 16 hours daily. and beleive me I was not ahead of all y friends and at any time i would almost always find a guild member, even if i happend to wake up at 5 am. lol. theres even a site called wowdetox.com. Where WOW players tell their horror stories about their WOW addition. The leveling and gearing side of WOW compels you to keep playing and the competitive side as well.
Also at 80 raids can go on for hours, in some guilds i was in, we would do 7 hours or more sometimes.
I got tired of the grind after 2 80s and a few other lower lvl, plus the game has become all about the gear and not so much about skill anymore.
A lot of these statements contradict your other statements. Just putting that out there. To make an analogy, you want a free delicious ice-cream cone that doesn't melt but is never too cold.
Perhaps you haven't found the right MMO. I have all of those things on Ryzom. I really enjoy my MMO. Just because others do not like the games that are out doesn't mean that there aren't good games.
Let me tell you a little secret: Vanguard wasn't that good. Combat-wise it was a dinosaur, graphics weren't that good, no physics... [and the list goes on]. Vanguard definetely does not fill those requirements.
I won't argue about combat mechanics. Not necessarily because I agree with you, but because I honestly don't pay attention to them. I am to combat mechanics as Texas is to American history.
Yet what MMO had better graphics at the time? I mean, the only one to graphically surpass it to this day is AoC. Soon to be joined by APB and EVE: Incarna, but still, this is more than three years later.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Comments
I dont think a lot of ppl do raids because they like it, but in games like WOW, its the only way to get the best gear, so you have no choice, I hate dongeons and raids (except city raids against players), but had to do them often for the gear, for unique trinkets for pvp, which was what i liked most.
Skipper
First off, the title of this post should be "This is what I think MMOs should be like". Having said that, I give you credit for asking for consensus at the end.
- Huge, open beautiful world: huge, fine. Graphics are not that important to me, gameplay is far more.
- 10x better customization than any MMO on the market? Give it a few years at least.
- No bugs? Dream on. I doubt any game ever created in the history of video games has zero bugs.
- No instances? I'll pass. I'll take instances over spawn-camping and kill stealing any day. I like instances.
- Forced grouping? Screw that. I despise forced grouping, and soloability is the number one thing I look for in an mMorpg.
- I generally have no desire whatsoever to group in MMOs, but I don't care if others do.
- I have zero interest in PvP and certainly don't want any non-consentual PvP whatsoever.
- Challenge can be found in every MMO if you look for it. I want to feel powerful, and not challenged in the least by one or two mere minions.
- Exp loss? No thank you, I hate any kind of death penalty whatsoever.
- Battles should last a minute? Maybe against a boss or me vs 10 mobs, certainly not against a random minion. More like 5 seconds. I want to be waaaay more powerful than mere minions.
- Real-time travel only if it's fun AND I can do something productive while travelling. Otherwise, give me as much insta-travel as possible. If not, it's only cool the first few times, then it's dull.
- I hate raiding. If it's in the game, fine, but give me an alternative to equal quality loot.
- 200 shops? No thanks, I don't want to spend an hour shopping. Give me on AH very very conveniently placed where I can get everything.
Am I right? I am absolutely right for me. What one person likes in an MMO is not what another does. If there was an MMO such as you describe, I am certain I would not play.
I doubt that the average hours stated for WOW players is correct. I used to play 5 to 16 hours daily. and beleive me I was not ahead of all y friends and at any time i would almost always find a guild member, even if i happend to wake up at 5 am. lol. theres even a site called wowdetox.com. Where WOW players tell their horror stories about their WOW addition. The leveling and gearing side of WOW compels you to keep playing and the competitive side as well.
Also at 80 raids can go on for hours, in some guilds i was in, we would do 7 hours or more sometimes.
I got tired of the grind after 2 80s and a few other lower lvl, plus the game has become all about the gear and not so much about skill anymore.
Skipper
A lot of these statements contradict your other statements. Just putting that out there. To make an analogy, you want a free delicious ice-cream cone that doesn't melt but is never too cold.
This statement is false.
Perhaps you haven't found the right MMO. I have all of those things on Ryzom. I really enjoy my MMO. Just because others do not like the games that are out doesn't mean that there aren't good games.
www.ryzom.com
I won't argue about combat mechanics. Not necessarily because I agree with you, but because I honestly don't pay attention to them. I am to combat mechanics as Texas is to American history.
Yet what MMO had better graphics at the time? I mean, the only one to graphically surpass it to this day is AoC. Soon to be joined by APB and EVE: Incarna, but still, this is more than three years later.