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Do your mmo developers listen to you? Should they?
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
Developers to me are a lot like politicians. They are mostly off doing their own thing, but every now and then they drop by your district, eat some catfish, kiss some babies, while trying to convince you they are there to find out what you, their constituent, wants. In my experience, the degree of sincerity between these two groups is about the same.
In the ten years I have been playing mmos I have seen a lot of pretending to listen to players, but not very much genuine effort to adapt the games to that input. My favorite example was in WoW. A Dev makes a sticky thread in the warlock forum, asking what the warlocks want. Hundreds and hundreds of locks poured out their ideas in detail. What did they get? They got nerfed lol.
Sure, if the players speak with one, loud, furious voice that there is something in the game they completely detest, sometimes in gets attention. But anything short of pitchforks and torches tends to get lost in the din. Even that is frequently ineffective.
What I don't understand, getting back to the political analogy, is that game companies act like there is no way to know what people like and don't like other than having a mod unscientifically sample message board posts. If they are serious about player input, poll them! When was the last time you were asked to fill out a poll to help improve a game? That's why I say they pretend to listen. Because they know how to get meaningful data and they don't.
A few games do a decent job of at least gathering player input. CCP, for example, has a players' council in EVE that looks fairly remarkable. In original SWG, there was a time when each class had a player representative. But for the most part, players are left merely to post on message boards, which is about as effective as writing that idea on a piece of paper and nailing it to a tree in your backyard.
I guess a follow up question is, should the devs listen? Or would that turn every game into a clone of every other game, or lead to anarchy?
Have you had any luck with player to developer communication in your mmo?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
I'm always weary about developers listening to their community for certain feedback, especially when it comes to class balance. No matter the MMO, no matter the class, people will almost always say their class is underpowered and other class are overpowered regardless of the truth. This joke says it perfectly:
Rock is overpowered, paper is fine.
-Scissors.
People will almost always give feedback that is biased and based on subjective observation, and if developers solely listen to that feedback things will end badly. I think it's really when a mass number of people speak up about something should developers really pay attention. Mythic is notorious for being bad at figuring out class balance, namely the overpoweredness of the Bright Wizard since launch despite forums and in-game chat filled with people complaining and giving hard evidence. Another example with Mythic was PvP weapons, or lack thereof.
Then you have feedback about the direction the game should take. Again, look at these forums. There's always a "hardcore vs. casual" thread on the front page. Who do you listen to?
Me indivdually? No, they should ignore my single voice. However when enough people join me (hard to say when that is) then the Dev's should probably take notice and consider what we're asking for.
Surveying the players is important, I really feel DAOC was killed off when someone on the Development team decided what the game really needed was EQ style raiding, and..... to make matters worse, tie it into the RVR game play so that only those who completed the new raiding content could gain the PVP super powers that ensured success in RVR.
Had they really surveyed the players they would have found that while many would have favored an enhanced PVE game, tieing it to the RVR/PVP skills could not have been requested by anyone.
This failure, coupled with a New Frontier revamp that also didn't take in consideration a lot of player requests (like more hot spots to congregate fights at) and instead created a massive RVR world that was largely empty and annoying to many folks) meant it sort of flopped as well.
In one case where I think they did listen to the players and it turned out badly, the Catacombs expansion with its instanced dungeon content maybe have been asked for by the players but it badly fragmented the player base and suddenly it felt more like Guild Wars than an MMORPG.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They should only ignore the most fervent, as well as the most sympathetic. The best feedback comes from people in a "meh" state of mind that can give honest info that doesn't back their personal stake in the game, and those are the ones you want to convince as the others are just waiting to flop sides on your game and brand it as s**t.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Remember a few things: only a small percentage of the players actually bother to post on the forums. Also, some people want things that run contrary to making the MMO money. Example: I despise most of the travel times in Wow, some are close to 10 minutes! But I understand why they are there; to elongate the time it takes to get stuff done.
However, if players are telling the devs "power x" is useless, or class y just doesn't cut it in PvE, they should at least look into it. AND, they should post their finding on those boards. "Our testing shows that power x is performing as intended" is much better than silence. But they just might find out (and I have seen examples of this) that power x has a bug in it that it only does a fraction of what it was intended to do.
So, yes, every MMO should have at least one person who reads the boards and then makes summaries to the other developers for discussion or analysis. But the extreme posts should be ignored.
Well, that is what happens. That's what community managers do. They compile feedback and attitiudes about the game and give them to the designers. Whether or not they act on it is, or should be, based on their merits. Expecting all feedback and suggestions to be responded from the development company is asking way too much, though. You'd need to hire at least several dozen new community people just to keep track with everything.
They should only listen to comments, suggestions that are within the scope of the mmo's design.
So as mentioned above, if a power isn't working well or a quest seems bugged or a class overpowered, etc then they should look into it.
If a game mechanic is implemented but no one likes it then they should look into other ways to implement the mechanic so that it will be fun.
But changing the game because players throw a fit or changing the game from what it is supposed to be (making a hardcore game less hardcore or a casual game more hardcore) then the devs should just stick with their initial design plan.
There are always going to be players who are unhappy. And some players are always going to be unhappy becaus that is who they are. So listening to complaints from people who just like to complain isn't going to get them anywhere.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If a designer "needs" to go to the community for input then they aren't a very good designer to begin with.
Let me explain.
Imagine a doctor asking his patients well after he has created his private practice what they want out of the service he is providing. Most likely they will answer with such things as; charge an honest fee, take care of them in a speedy manner, and above all, fix whatever ailments they have while preventing chances for them to acquire others.
Yes, they may have other answers, but assuredly a massive percentage will fall under these mentioned groups.
So there are two possible reasons for the doctor asking;
1. If the doctor already knew these things, then he should have been implementing them with his service in the first place, yet he wasn't. This doctor is feigning sincerity. This doctor will continue to implement services his patients don't need and charge fees they don't deserve. He holds his benefits and desires as a doctor in higher regard than the experiences and fair treatment of his patients.
2. If on the other hand the doctor truly didn't know some of these things, is asking out of inexperience, lack of study and/or foresight. This doctor is ignorant. While this doctor can parlay some of the answers he gets into knowledge, he will still make mistakes during implementation, and worse, will use this method of gaining knowledge AFTER the fact to save him from bad medical and professional practices.
From the point of view of a patient, who would want a negligent or an ignorant doctor? Both are undesirable and both will produce an undesirable experience. Both are BAD doctors.
Designers of MMO's are no different.
A GOOD designer already has done immense research into what "players" as a whole, as groups, and as individuals want. Further the good designer will implement what players don't even know they need to have an enjoyable experience.
A BAD designer will go to the community for one of the aforementioned reasons. Pretending to care but continuing to design for reasons of a fiscal nature OR ignorantly using their communities input as a substitution for true knowledge and retrospective thought.
There is no good reason for a good designer to need community input, rather, the good designer already knows what is needed to make players happy, where possible problems will lie, and what to do when they occur, having already studied immensely and contemplating deeply his design concepts and their faults.
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There is a 3rd reason a designer would go to a community. They already have a good design, and simply want ideas on how to improve small swatches of the game world. This is acceptable, useful and consistently used.
This however isn't what we are discussing in my opinion, but rather getting advice from the community to change areas of the game that could make or break it.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
I hope your eyes explode while reading the small font like mine did.
Here's advice; if you want developers to listen to you, use wingdings *rimshot*
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Sorry.
20/13 Vision. ^^
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Developers should listen to players.
They should never listen to forumites.
Best way to survey the population is in-game. Most games have a built in mail system; if developers want to canvass their paying, playing population, they should use it (or something like it). Forums have skewed perspectives and given a false impression of majority opinions.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Honestly, the people that can really give good insight to the devs are very very few and far between.
They can tell you if they like feature X or not and why, but when it comes to suggestions most people just lose the big picture completely. They don't take everything into account, can't think of things in all perspectives. That's the developers duty.
Some people say that it's bad for the game if it's developers don't even play it. But that's what keeps them objective. Above the normal player. They are not biased towards anything.
I guess they can get survey inforamation from in-game more accurately than a forums... then again, I could draw conclusions from a hat and get more accurate results than that. Problem though, is that it doesn't let an individual pose issues or ask/answer questions outside a yes/no or "how would you grade it?" fashion.
IRC is just as bad as forums, and always stalked by the worst of em. I recommend developers bury it unless they are giving a state of the union address with everyone on mute.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I agree.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The eastern MMOs succeed by having the community team feed development with what the players want and then development creates it. It's a system that has worked very well for them for almost a decade now.
Seeing as there is an extreme bias and almost a complete hatred prolific on these boards when it comes to eastern MMOs, I'll take it in another direction... sandbox-focused MMOs.
The more the world is like a sandbox, the more emergent behaviour is prevalent. In order to sustain that type of gameplay, it is imperative that the developers listen to the wants of the players and identify where the overall community (or even subsets of it, for that matter) is headed with their gameplay.
In UO, a program intended for use with an emulator was used by players to create 'true black' dye. Players loved it and True Black clothing and cloth were showing up everywhere. The developers never intended (or even wanted) such a color in the game however the players went crazy for it and the Black Dye Tub eventually became an early Veteran Reward for players.
In Asheron's Call, most players all but abandoned everything but the highest form of currency (MMD Notes) and started using the keys for the various treasure chests as a form of currency. Players soon complained about the amount of space necessary to carry what they adopted as money. The developers introduced craftable keyrings that players could use. An entirely new aspect of content - Carving keys and keyrings - was introduced and was very well received. This is content that was neither planned nor intended but was the result of listening to their community and building the game to accommodate the way people played the game.
In EVE Online, players began to use the escrow system to create more complex trade agreements than the market allowed. Players wanted to be able to trade in ways the game was never really built for. The Contract system was developed and provided players with the ability to create the auctions, loans, item exchanges, courier missions and other transactions they wanted to make.
It is entirely possible to listen to, embrace and build for your community while staying true to the vision of your game. For MMOs that focus on sandbox gameplay, I'd say it's mandatory for the success of the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
I agree with this 100%. The technology is certainly there to ask broad questions and very detailed ones. Also, inserting a comments field with each question is certainly possible should a player feel the need to elaborate or just add additional concerns. It's not like they can only setup the questionaire in a "yes/no" format.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I wish you the best of luck on your development endeavors. Looking forward to your MMO, tuna.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
With my experience on the wow forums, most suggestions to "improve" the game might be better off going unnoticed.
But listening to what players might want is important. If developers were to completely ignore their playerbase, than they risk losing subs, or possibly overlook any problem that could be easily fixed.
So, I think while it's important for a dev to listen to you, they shouldn't take everything into account and base their game off that. It's been said many times already that a lot of people are very bias, especially when it comes to class mechanics.
It's always about that middle ground, I guess.
Groovy.
I just hope people such as those on this forum will put their money where their opinions are. I've spent more time designing "the game" than many MMO companies take to get their game to Beta.
Not sure if I'll be calling the game an MMO though as it is so much bigger than that. ^^
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Don't ignore anything. Don't listen to everything.
Only one thing to say about this topic.
Star Wars Galaxies.
They sometimes do and sometimes they don't. Depends on how much involvement in the game I'm in during Alpha and Closed Beta phases. Developers take note of a person if he helps out tremendously in bug reporting, finding exploits, and offering general help to the community. Drawback is that you have to do all this in CB, because once OB and release happens they disappear off the face of the Earth busy making the next and biggest thing. Maybe from time to time they'll quip about newer content and every once in awhlie inquire your personal input on the content.
But I think there's a slight hierarchy within the MMO business. Seems after CB, publishers urge the players to go through their QA system, then their QA system decides whether or not suggestion or bug is valid to be passed on to the developers. Thus eliminating the developer to player contact that is needed.
I think Developers should play a proactive role in CB and OB when it's crucial to fix most of the game bugs before release. I think that Publishers should not hold such an iron grip over their Developers when it comes to community interaction. Usually the good MMOs are both developed and published by the same company, so that there's no need for some hierarchal business system.
In my opinion, there should be a "middle-man" who will interpret the feelings/thoughts of the player base and the forum community as it is mention here. The middle-man should filter the unnecesary information and address only the majorly accepted faults/problems of the community.
Managing a game via polls is a phenomonally poor idea. The paper/rock/scissors quote in post #2 barely scratches the surface of the poor decisionmaking capabilities of players.
Which isn't to say polls can never help. There are some narrow situations where they're a good way of getting player feedback. But the majority of decisions should be done with an over-knowledge of how those decisions impact the game as a whole (as well as the prerequisite dev costs involved with those decisions, naturally.)
I think plenty of games makes very botched decisions regarding changes to their game. But it's more a problem with the specific decisionmakers than the process itself. Obviously they still need to look (at statistics) and listen (to forums) to try to get as accurate a picture of player opinions as possible, to use to make educated decisions.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I love the arguement of how WoW doesn't listen to the players. The problem is as some people said, games should NOT listen to the players.
The main problem is how the majority of people who post, "Rogues are OP" have the one class which is roflstomped by Rogues. Me, I have leveled/played 5 different level 80 classes and I know there is rarely such thing as an OP class. Alot of people have 1 primary character in which they sink a bunch of their time into, so should we listen to them? Sure sometimes, but not often since I've noticed most posts are whining about they're underpowered and class X is OP.
And how you said Warlocks got nerfed, you failed to specify whether it was NEEDED in the first place. Was it? Probably. Warlocks as far as I know have rarely ever been in a spot where they were underpowered and have mostly been OP or balanced. So sorry, I fail to see whats wrong about a needed nerf.
Plus, hundreds of ideas don't matter if they can't be used. Sure I would love to have dual classes in WoW and I'm sure I can get thousands of people to agree, but it would completely ruin every single class in that game and require blizzard to change every talent and ability.
Mass public opinion is rarely ever right. Just because it sounds cool/fun doesn't mean its a good idea.
Bro you are playing LOTRO like it owes you money - Grunt187
Anticipation : TERA