I think World of Warcraft has some life in it still but may people are loyal to it. Kind of a fandom in a way. I've heard it said that World of Warcraft is showing its age in graphics and the like which may be true. Eventually, the game will decline but when a famous game like this declines to a certain point thats usually when they lay some big bomb like the announcement that a World of Warcraft MMO II or something similar to that is coming out and everybody gets all hyped again in expectation.
I think World of Warcraft has some life in it still but may people are loyal to it. Kind of a fandom in a way. I've heard it said that World of Warcraft is showing its age in graphics and the like which may be true. Eventually, the game will decline but when a famous game like this declines to a certain point thats usually when they lay some big bomb like the announcement that a World of Warcraft MMO II or something similar to that is coming out and everybody gets all hyped again in expectation.
This game is far from dead, but it's time in the limelight is certainly drawing to an end. I'm very curious to see what Blizzard has up their sleeve for their next MMO.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Hope so, but Blizzard seems content to have us believe otherwise. I really think they're messing with all of us though
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Saying wow is easy but wait ...what are your credentials..What have you raided? armory profile maybe?
Your saying you like a lot of thinking ,games wich take skill....so that's why you've played a lot of Lineage2.Sorry to burst your bubble but a hard/intellectual challenging game isn't one where you have to mindlessly grind for hours . Oh ...did I mention there was a lot of RMT going on in the games you deem so superior?.
I see that challenge come up a lot.... the whole "what have you accomplished in WoW to have that opinion?"
The thing is.. it's such a hollow challenge.
I've never even touched most of the end-game content... However, I can still say that, compared to what I enjoy in a MMO, it's too easy.
Why?
1. Too much hand-holding. I like to have to find and figure things out for myself. I don't need everything spelled out for me... WoW does *way* too much of that.
2. No "bite" to death = less concern about avoiding it = sloppier and more careless gameplay by many players. Yes, I've played WoW and other MMOs with harsher death penalties (FFXI, L2 to name a couple) side by side... and the difference in how people - for the most part - play each game is night and day. You will seldom ever see someone pull some of the careless, ridiculous crap I've seen people pull in WoW... jsut because they felt like it and could easily afford the gear repair. WoW's one of the only MMOs I've played where death is used by many as a means of transportation, a more convenient way to "hop" across areas... let's put it that way.
3. Leaves absolutely nothing for the player to figure out on their own. Even the "collect x of y" quests are simplified to the point of absurdity with the whole "sparkles" thing coming off them... FFS, if you want me to "quest for" something, make me actually have to use my damn *eyes* and find it.
4. Leveling is far too easy, seems every time you turn around you're being rewarded. "Discovery XP" has always been ridiculous to me. I didn't "discover" anything while running down the road through Duskwood... I was just running along a patch of road that looked no different than the last bit I'd just ran through... suddenly I've "discovered" this entire forest and am rewarded for it. Patronizing, in my opinion.
5. Though some have some pretty interesting storylines (yes, I'm one of those few (it seems) who actually read and follow the storylines), the quest-chains are pretty uninspired through most of the game, to me.
That's just 5 examples of many I could go on listing, and that pretty much account for most of my play experience up to level 80. I got one character that far and just couldnt' be bothered to level another one.
is it all bad? No. There are aspects of WoW that I enjoyed... but on the whole, I will say that it's not, at all, a challenging MMO - and to claim otherwise is disingenuous because Blizzard, by its very design, intended it to be that way. You know, the whole "accessible" thing. Even players I know who *enjoyed* it for its more "casual" gameplay are at the point of saying "enough already" with how much it's been simplified. So, to argue that a MMO that is intentionally designed to be low on the challenge curve is somehow more challenging than it is, anchoring it on end-game content that not everyone does anyway, is, again, disingenuous.
So... when you're challenging people to give their "credentials", remember that end-game is only part of the game overall... Maybe the only important part for you, or for others... but not for everyone.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Isn't that one of the signs of the Biblical apocalypse?
The end is near
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I see that challenge come up a lot.... the whole "what have you accomplished in WoW to have that opinion?"
The thing is.. it's such a hollow challenge.
I've never even touched most of the end-game content... However, I can still say that, compared to what I enjoy in a MMO, it's too easy.
Why?
Because your the kind of person who will go on and on and on about things you don't know anything about?
That's about it isn't it, you first make a distinct point out of being clueless and then want to be taken serious. Gee, how can we possibly refute that?
I see that challenge come up a lot.... the whole "what have you accomplished in WoW to have that opinion?"
The thing is.. it's such a hollow challenge.
I've never even touched most of the end-game content... However, I can still say that, compared to what I enjoy in a MMO, it's too easy.
Why?
Because your the kind of person who will go on and on and on about things you don't know anything about?
That's about it isn't it, you first make a distinct point out of being clueless and then want to be taken serious. Gee, how can we possibly refute that?
While it's true the messenger lends credibility to the claim, is the claim stand-alone true?
I've seen this counter-argument as well. My question to you, and those who use this counter-argument is: just *how* elite of a player needs to make this claim before it is accepted? How heavy must the messenger weigh in before the audience embraces the claim?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
To add to the current discussion, yes, WoW is easy. I was in one of the (then) top-100 USA guilds during Burning Crusade, and the fights were damn hard. We actually disbanded when we couldn't kill M'uru over the course of a few months.
I continued playing through WOTLK, where I achieved many things with my guild. Because we basically turned into a 10-man guild, we just raided 10 mans hardcore, where I killed Algalon, got my Rusted and Plagued Proto Drakes, etc. Cleared TOGC10, made about 50k gold in the auction house over the course of 2-3 weeks (all verifiable on armory), then realized.... this just isn't worth it anymore, why am I busting my ass when it's all basically meaningless, empty achievements.
That, and having an in-game friend ebay his account, then conning his way into an elite guild, then ebaying again, then conning his way into another guild, then ebaying out, FOUR TIMES on the same server.... it's depressing when someone can gear up his character to practically equal to your level in a matter of weeks.
Then I leveled a hunter all the way to 80, and IIRC, when I quit, he was more geared than my Druid main, which I'd been playing for 4 years now...
WoW is far too easy. Gear is too easy. There's no sense of respect or shame in that game, because you can easily pug practically any "endgame" raid, ninja loot everything to you and your friends, then find a whole group of 20 people to come with you the following week.
It's no wonder subscriptions are falling. People are looking for something new, possibly Blizzard's "next gen MMO," or Star Wars TOR..
While it's true the messenger lends credibility to the claim, is the claim stand-alone true?
I've seen this counter-argument as well. My question to you, and those who use this counter-argument is: just *how* elite of a player needs to make this claim before it is accepted? How heavy must the messenger weigh in before the audience embraces the claim?
Indeed, there is a diffrent side to this argument. My point though would be to stay within the bounds of your experience and at to maintain a degree of humility when steping outside it. If you have not raided you don't know much about raiding, you can have some thought and opinions, but some humility certainly is in order when talking about things you do not have first hand experience with. Presenting opinion as if it should be taken at face value despite a lack of experience is not very compelling and I believe it degrades the discussion.
I am personally careful about not overstepping my bounds of experience. I can quote someone else talking about killing the LK 25h, but I have never tried that fight myself so I could not make a strong statement about it I can only quote, note what seems to be the case with others and compare with my experiences such as having done a fair amount of tries on the normal 25 mode and practical knowledge as to say fight mechanics. So while I can talk about this I have to try to stay humble as to what I know and distinct as to what is my opinion. There is allso the notion of how incendiary claims one should make without the backup of experience.
So I do not want to set a "must be this tall to ride" for the discussion, but I do hold to the point that experience lends much more credibility to claims. As well as the point that a lack of experience when making strong claims is can be a major detractor from the argument made.
Edit: I'd note that Havoklimit's case is, to me stronger since has some raiding experience. I could start picking at it, he hasn't done many 25 man hard modes, he is to interesed in gear for my tastes, etc. But he has made a clear case as to his experience and this makes his opinions about those much more interesting.
I have, to a degree, a conflicting experience, having done many hardmodes he hasn't (as well as failing time and time again) I don't find the game as such to be very easy, but the core claim that those bits were to easy I think I can agree to. Then we can go from what is sensible to agree on to the normative bit, how should it be? And to me that seems alot fairer and more honest than having a discussion where someone comes in to say "I never did this, but it's really easy".
I don't understand why people continue to blame World of Warcraft for all the other MMO's failures in doing something better.. do you blame someone that might be smarter than you just because he's smarter? How about doing something about it and actually learning something? That's what happens with other MMO companies, they just focus on the wrong things, make the game "beautiful" and forget that if it has a crappy lore and a grind feeling, it'll just go down fast.
Aion is a shining example of that.. heck, let's just copy paste a Korean MMO from a community used to grind all day long and care for nothing else in life and take it to the Western community.. yes, the game is beautiful but hell, if I wanted to grind I would do it on a F2P MMO, or even at WoW.
The problem is, most MMO coming out have near to no lore or just don't know how to tell it..
Everyone nags that Blizzard only cares about money.. and what about the other MMO companies? Don't you think they also care about the money? If a MMO isn't P2P it's F2P and still it'll have a Item Shop for.. guess what ..make you spend money..
At least I see Blizzard doing something with the money they earn. They deliver content, constant updates to the game, they have the "blues" in constant contact with the community.. show me another MMO that cares to do the same.
World of Warcraft is here to stay and if you are actualy hoping it'll die, you better grab a chair because your life span won't be enough to see it happen.
WoW is far too easy. Gear is too easy. There's no sense of respect or shame in that game, because you can easily pug practically any "endgame" raid, ninja loot everything to you and your friends, then find a whole group of 20 people to come with you the following week.
It's no wonder subscriptions are falling. People are looking for something new, possibly Blizzard's "next gen MMO," or Star Wars TOR..
It's obvious you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. If you think you can simply pug ICC heroic then you don't know what your talking about. As for your comment about subscriptions falling, last I checked the latest figure still stood at 11.5 million so I'm not sure what you mean by 'subscriptions falling'. Blizzard is obviously regaining as many subs as they are losing to maintain that number.
I agree with you, WoW is easy, but that is the point. The MMO market doesn't cater to you (the hardcore player). It stopped catering to you the minute WoW surpassed 1 million subs. You just choose not to accept it.
I tried WoW about 5 years ago and it was fun for a bit, but my craptastic PC at the time couldn't handle it. (Yea it was that bad of a PC). Now that I have a rig that can play most games out there I wouldn't go back to it because of all the expansions.I don't have my old account anymore so I would have to buy a new one, than pay X amount of money for each expansion, and THAN shell out another 50 bucks for cataclysm in the near future. Altogether I would have to invest somewhere's between 100-150 bucks just to gain full access to the game, PLUS another 15 bucks a month to play.
Ummmm... no thanks. I'll keep my eye on Mortal instead.
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
WoW is far too easy. Gear is too easy. There's no sense of respect or shame in that game, because you can easily pug practically any "endgame" raid, ninja loot everything to you and your friends, then find a whole group of 20 people to come with you the following week.
It's no wonder subscriptions are falling. People are looking for something new, possibly Blizzard's "next gen MMO," or Star Wars TOR..
It's obvious you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. If you think you can simply pug ICC heroic then you don't know what your talking about. As for your comment about subscriptions falling, last I checked the latest figure still stood at 11.5 million so I'm not sure what you mean by 'subscriptions falling'. Blizzard is obviously regaining as many subs as they are losing to maintain that number.
I agree with you, WoW is easy, but that is the point. The MMO market doesn't cater to you (the hardcore player). It stopped catering to you the minute WoW surpassed 1 million subs. You just choose not to accept it.
Well, I never said you can simply pug ICC heroic. I also mentioned I haven't played the game since late November/early December, when the latest/toughest raid was ToGC. And as far as I had experienced before I finally quit raiding altogether, I was able to pug TOGC10 and some of TOGC25 on my main as well as 2 different alts. (At the time, TOGC being the highest tier of raiding).
I don't see why you'd say I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.... you can check my armory > achievements to verify the claims I made, instead of just blurting out random attacks on me... I even provided you a link. But I suppose that is the way of the internet forum.
Lastly, I meant to say that "it's no wonder subscription [growth] is falling," and I believe my points are still valid. People are looking for something new. Even as the non-hardcore player, you can only run the same dungeon so many times and with so many alts before you realize.... hey I have better things I can do with my time.
There is no reason why WoW should have stopped growing other than Wrath of the Lich King is a poor expansion.
For every newbie WoW picks up they're losing a veteran player in the process.
QFT
The other problem is that Blizzard said that the majority of players doing their free month are NOT getting passed level 10. I don't know about anyone else but I can hit level 10 in a day or two. This tells me that Blizzard has been focusing too much on 80 content and ignoring everything else. All the Wrath patches were aimed at level 80's. It's not only okay but necessary to keep the endgame people happy, but if you don't give newbies something to do they will get bored quickly.
I was rather disappointed in Wrath personally. It seemed like a "lazy" xpac to me. There were so few armor models, my 80 epic helm I got in Naxx 10 had the same graphic as the DK blue helm they get. Don't give me the xmas colored armor like in BC, but come on Blizz have more than a couple of armor models for each piece. Changing the tinting is NOT the same thing.
[1] WoW's subscription rate is FALLING in EU/NA - the two most important and profitable markets. It requires you to read between the lines and use your brain (something not required in Wrath of the Lame King).
Blizzard said that subs, despite massive advertisting campaigns, remains steady at 11.5 million. Blizzard also said that China continues to grow. Now, if one market, ie China is growing, but the overall number is not that means that the has to be a DECLINE in other markets to OFFSET the growth in China.
And dont forget that Blizzard has to share the money from China with the local operator, that the Chinese currency is lowly valued and that China pays per hour and not a flat rate. So all the casuals in China who log on for a couple of hours a month are not going to contribute anywhere near the amount of money than people from NA paying $15 US a month.
[2] And if Blizzard haven't woken up to the fact that long time players are quitting WoW en masse then they're going to lose a lot of money.
[1]
I just wanted to point out that if what you said is true (Asian populations are growing, western populations are declining) then WoW would see a downturn in revenue, which has not happened. If I recall right, revenue was actually up in each quarter compared to the previous year.
The only thing I think anyone knows for certain is that wow remains at around the same subscription level since lich king released. There is more to that, but the available information makes it hard to see what exactly that is.
[2]
I think blizzard is well aware of their retention rates. I recall where blizzard was talking about their strategy and they are not fighting tooth and nail to become the only mmo that people play for years on end. They are aiming at giving a game that people will play for a while or at the same time as another game. They plan for people to leave and come back when new content comes out.
That isn't saying they are giving up on players, but realistically no game is going to retains players for years and years and continue to grow. Still wow has done a fabulous job of doing just that to various degrees. Furthermore I bet you anything well over half of the people here who "quit wow for the last time" will go back again for cataclysm. Just like we all say we will not get sucked into the hype of the next big release and then rush out to buy collectors versions and lifetime subscriptions.
[1] WoW's subscription rate is FALLING in EU/NA - the two most important and profitable markets. It requires you to read between the lines and use your brain (something not required in Wrath of the Lame King).
Blizzard said that subs, despite massive advertisting campaigns, remains steady at 11.5 million. Blizzard also said that China continues to grow. Now, if one market, ie China is growing, but the overall number is not that means that the has to be a DECLINE in other markets to OFFSET the growth in China.
And dont forget that Blizzard has to share the money from China with the local operator, that the Chinese currency is lowly valued and that China pays per hour and not a flat rate. So all the casuals in China who log on for a couple of hours a month are not going to contribute anywhere near the amount of money than people from NA paying $15 US a month.
[2] And if Blizzard haven't woken up to the fact that long time players are quitting WoW en masse then they're going to lose a lot of money.
[1]
I just wanted to point out that if what you said is true (Asian populations are growing, western populations are declining) then WoW would see a downturn in revenue, which has not happened. If I recall right, revenue was actually up in each quarter compared to the previous year.
Revenue is rerived from more than just subs. Activision-Blizzard lost $300,000,000 recently. So much for increased revenue.
The only thing I think anyone knows for certain is that wow remains at around the same subscription level since lich king released. There is more to that, but the available information makes it hard to see what exactly that is.
Go back and look at Blizzard's press releases for sub numbers. Blizzard ALWAYS broke the regions down. Now they dont. I wonder why? Why is Blizzard being a lot more secretive with their numbers?
[2]
I think blizzard is well aware of their retention rates. I recall where blizzard was talking about their strategy and they are not fighting tooth and nail to become the only mmo that people play for years on end. They are aiming at giving a game that people will play for a while or at the same time as another game. They plan for people to leave and come back when new content comes out.
Well, Blizzard are dumber than I thought. An inactive account generates no income. Blizzard generates no more money from someone inactive who is planning to come back than someone who will never play the game again. $0 is equal to $0.
Just like with Arena Blizzard will realise they are wrong.
That isn't saying they are giving up on players, but realistically no game is going to retains players for years and years and continue to grow. Still wow has done a fabulous job of doing just that to various degrees. Furthermore I bet you anything well over half of the people here who "quit wow for the last time" will go back again for cataclysm. Just like we all say we will not get sucked into the hype of the next big release and then rush out to buy collectors versions and lifetime subscriptions.
I played Quakeworld (Quake 1) for 6 years. People have played Everquest for 10 years. To make sweeping generalisethat on how long people play a game is typical of the arrogant blizzard fanbois that believe whatever idiotcrawler and his team of goons tell them.
And if Blizzard's current strategy is to aim at casuals only where the hell are they? The game isnt growing and theres plenty more brain dead chimps out there that havent subscribed to WoW.
Wow has been on decline since they merged the servers down to just 13 -- do not be fooled by the node you now connect to.. the battlegroup is the new blizzard term for a merged server group.
Wow has been on decline since they merged the servers down to just 13 -- do not be fooled by the node you now connect to.. the battlegroup is the new blizzard term for a merged server group.
You are confusing US Battlegroups with US servers.
There are 598 servers worldwide right now (not counting the Chinese ones).
The battlegroups were introduced in 2006 and serve to offer cross server BG and arena competitions (and were the basis for the cross server dungeons).
Each Battlegroup consists of an average of 15 to 20 servers in the US.
That's an average of 200.000 players per Battlegroup.
That makes indeed for around 2.500.000 players on US servers.
The last 2 servers were added last month in Russia. They quadrapulled their server parc in the last 18 months over there.
1.2 billion US dollars revenu on a yearly basis.... from subscriptions.
No denying this.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
It's about f...ing time. Seriously, it was a great game but now it's old. You can't expect a game to keep going on forever. It is showing it's age. There are a lot of things that need to be upgraded.
Comments
I think World of Warcraft has some life in it still but may people are loyal to it. Kind of a fandom in a way. I've heard it said that World of Warcraft is showing its age in graphics and the like which may be true. Eventually, the game will decline but when a famous game like this declines to a certain point thats usually when they lay some big bomb like the announcement that a World of Warcraft MMO II or something similar to that is coming out and everybody gets all hyped again in expectation.
This game is far from dead, but it's time in the limelight is certainly drawing to an end. I'm very curious to see what Blizzard has up their sleeve for their next MMO.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Starcraft Universe...ooooh, aaaah, mmmmm.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Hope so, but Blizzard seems content to have us believe otherwise. I really think they're messing with all of us though
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I see that challenge come up a lot.... the whole "what have you accomplished in WoW to have that opinion?"
The thing is.. it's such a hollow challenge.
I've never even touched most of the end-game content... However, I can still say that, compared to what I enjoy in a MMO, it's too easy.
Why?
1. Too much hand-holding. I like to have to find and figure things out for myself. I don't need everything spelled out for me... WoW does *way* too much of that.
2. No "bite" to death = less concern about avoiding it = sloppier and more careless gameplay by many players. Yes, I've played WoW and other MMOs with harsher death penalties (FFXI, L2 to name a couple) side by side... and the difference in how people - for the most part - play each game is night and day. You will seldom ever see someone pull some of the careless, ridiculous crap I've seen people pull in WoW... jsut because they felt like it and could easily afford the gear repair. WoW's one of the only MMOs I've played where death is used by many as a means of transportation, a more convenient way to "hop" across areas... let's put it that way.
3. Leaves absolutely nothing for the player to figure out on their own. Even the "collect x of y" quests are simplified to the point of absurdity with the whole "sparkles" thing coming off them... FFS, if you want me to "quest for" something, make me actually have to use my damn *eyes* and find it.
4. Leveling is far too easy, seems every time you turn around you're being rewarded. "Discovery XP" has always been ridiculous to me. I didn't "discover" anything while running down the road through Duskwood... I was just running along a patch of road that looked no different than the last bit I'd just ran through... suddenly I've "discovered" this entire forest and am rewarded for it. Patronizing, in my opinion.
5. Though some have some pretty interesting storylines (yes, I'm one of those few (it seems) who actually read and follow the storylines), the quest-chains are pretty uninspired through most of the game, to me.
That's just 5 examples of many I could go on listing, and that pretty much account for most of my play experience up to level 80. I got one character that far and just couldnt' be bothered to level another one.
is it all bad? No. There are aspects of WoW that I enjoyed... but on the whole, I will say that it's not, at all, a challenging MMO - and to claim otherwise is disingenuous because Blizzard, by its very design, intended it to be that way. You know, the whole "accessible" thing. Even players I know who *enjoyed* it for its more "casual" gameplay are at the point of saying "enough already" with how much it's been simplified. So, to argue that a MMO that is intentionally designed to be low on the challenge curve is somehow more challenging than it is, anchoring it on end-game content that not everyone does anyway, is, again, disingenuous.
So... when you're challenging people to give their "credentials", remember that end-game is only part of the game overall... Maybe the only important part for you, or for others... but not for everyone.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"world of warcraft has stopped growing"
Isn't that one of the signs of the Biblical apocalypse?
Reality check #1.
Reality check #2.
Reality check #3.
Just funny.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The end is near
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Because your the kind of person who will go on and on and on about things you don't know anything about?
That's about it isn't it, you first make a distinct point out of being clueless and then want to be taken serious. Gee, how can we possibly refute that?
While it's true the messenger lends credibility to the claim, is the claim stand-alone true?
I've seen this counter-argument as well. My question to you, and those who use this counter-argument is: just *how* elite of a player needs to make this claim before it is accepted? How heavy must the messenger weigh in before the audience embraces the claim?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
To add to the current discussion, yes, WoW is easy. I was in one of the (then) top-100 USA guilds during Burning Crusade, and the fights were damn hard. We actually disbanded when we couldn't kill M'uru over the course of a few months.
I continued playing through WOTLK, where I achieved many things with my guild. Because we basically turned into a 10-man guild, we just raided 10 mans hardcore, where I killed Algalon, got my Rusted and Plagued Proto Drakes, etc. Cleared TOGC10, made about 50k gold in the auction house over the course of 2-3 weeks (all verifiable on armory), then realized.... this just isn't worth it anymore, why am I busting my ass when it's all basically meaningless, empty achievements.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackrock&cn=Havoklimit
That, and having an in-game friend ebay his account, then conning his way into an elite guild, then ebaying again, then conning his way into another guild, then ebaying out, FOUR TIMES on the same server.... it's depressing when someone can gear up his character to practically equal to your level in a matter of weeks.
Then I leveled a hunter all the way to 80, and IIRC, when I quit, he was more geared than my Druid main, which I'd been playing for 4 years now...
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackrock&cn=Limits
WoW is far too easy. Gear is too easy. There's no sense of respect or shame in that game, because you can easily pug practically any "endgame" raid, ninja loot everything to you and your friends, then find a whole group of 20 people to come with you the following week.
It's no wonder subscriptions are falling. People are looking for something new, possibly Blizzard's "next gen MMO," or Star Wars TOR..
Indeed, there is a diffrent side to this argument. My point though would be to stay within the bounds of your experience and at to maintain a degree of humility when steping outside it. If you have not raided you don't know much about raiding, you can have some thought and opinions, but some humility certainly is in order when talking about things you do not have first hand experience with. Presenting opinion as if it should be taken at face value despite a lack of experience is not very compelling and I believe it degrades the discussion.
I am personally careful about not overstepping my bounds of experience. I can quote someone else talking about killing the LK 25h, but I have never tried that fight myself so I could not make a strong statement about it I can only quote, note what seems to be the case with others and compare with my experiences such as having done a fair amount of tries on the normal 25 mode and practical knowledge as to say fight mechanics. So while I can talk about this I have to try to stay humble as to what I know and distinct as to what is my opinion. There is allso the notion of how incendiary claims one should make without the backup of experience.
So I do not want to set a "must be this tall to ride" for the discussion, but I do hold to the point that experience lends much more credibility to claims. As well as the point that a lack of experience when making strong claims is can be a major detractor from the argument made.
Edit: I'd note that Havoklimit's case is, to me stronger since has some raiding experience. I could start picking at it, he hasn't done many 25 man hard modes, he is to interesed in gear for my tastes, etc. But he has made a clear case as to his experience and this makes his opinions about those much more interesting.
I have, to a degree, a conflicting experience, having done many hardmodes he hasn't (as well as failing time and time again) I don't find the game as such to be very easy, but the core claim that those bits were to easy I think I can agree to. Then we can go from what is sensible to agree on to the normative bit, how should it be? And to me that seems alot fairer and more honest than having a discussion where someone comes in to say "I never did this, but it's really easy".
I don't understand why people continue to blame World of Warcraft for all the other MMO's failures in doing something better.. do you blame someone that might be smarter than you just because he's smarter? How about doing something about it and actually learning something? That's what happens with other MMO companies, they just focus on the wrong things, make the game "beautiful" and forget that if it has a crappy lore and a grind feeling, it'll just go down fast.
Aion is a shining example of that.. heck, let's just copy paste a Korean MMO from a community used to grind all day long and care for nothing else in life and take it to the Western community.. yes, the game is beautiful but hell, if I wanted to grind I would do it on a F2P MMO, or even at WoW.
The problem is, most MMO coming out have near to no lore or just don't know how to tell it..
Everyone nags that Blizzard only cares about money.. and what about the other MMO companies? Don't you think they also care about the money? If a MMO isn't P2P it's F2P and still it'll have a Item Shop for.. guess what ..make you spend money..
At least I see Blizzard doing something with the money they earn. They deliver content, constant updates to the game, they have the "blues" in constant contact with the community.. show me another MMO that cares to do the same.
World of Warcraft is here to stay and if you are actualy hoping it'll die, you better grab a chair because your life span won't be enough to see it happen.
It's obvious you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. If you think you can simply pug ICC heroic then you don't know what your talking about. As for your comment about subscriptions falling, last I checked the latest figure still stood at 11.5 million so I'm not sure what you mean by 'subscriptions falling'. Blizzard is obviously regaining as many subs as they are losing to maintain that number.
I agree with you, WoW is easy, but that is the point. The MMO market doesn't cater to you (the hardcore player). It stopped catering to you the minute WoW surpassed 1 million subs. You just choose not to accept it.
I tried WoW about 5 years ago and it was fun for a bit, but my craptastic PC at the time couldn't handle it. (Yea it was that bad of a PC). Now that I have a rig that can play most games out there I wouldn't go back to it because of all the expansions.I don't have my old account anymore so I would have to buy a new one, than pay X amount of money for each expansion, and THAN shell out another 50 bucks for cataclysm in the near future. Altogether I would have to invest somewhere's between 100-150 bucks just to gain full access to the game, PLUS another 15 bucks a month to play.
Ummmm... no thanks. I'll keep my eye on Mortal instead.
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
Well, I never said you can simply pug ICC heroic. I also mentioned I haven't played the game since late November/early December, when the latest/toughest raid was ToGC. And as far as I had experienced before I finally quit raiding altogether, I was able to pug TOGC10 and some of TOGC25 on my main as well as 2 different alts. (At the time, TOGC being the highest tier of raiding).
I don't see why you'd say I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.... you can check my armory > achievements to verify the claims I made, instead of just blurting out random attacks on me... I even provided you a link. But I suppose that is the way of the internet forum.
Lastly, I meant to say that "it's no wonder subscription [growth] is falling," and I believe my points are still valid. People are looking for something new. Even as the non-hardcore player, you can only run the same dungeon so many times and with so many alts before you realize.... hey I have better things I can do with my time.
QFT
The other problem is that Blizzard said that the majority of players doing their free month are NOT getting passed level 10. I don't know about anyone else but I can hit level 10 in a day or two. This tells me that Blizzard has been focusing too much on 80 content and ignoring everything else. All the Wrath patches were aimed at level 80's. It's not only okay but necessary to keep the endgame people happy, but if you don't give newbies something to do they will get bored quickly.
I was rather disappointed in Wrath personally. It seemed like a "lazy" xpac to me. There were so few armor models, my 80 epic helm I got in Naxx 10 had the same graphic as the DK blue helm they get. Don't give me the xmas colored armor like in BC, but come on Blizz have more than a couple of armor models for each piece. Changing the tinting is NOT the same thing.
wow stop growing, omfg the world is gonna end now. LOL
So what happens next? Shrinkage? Ewww....
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
[1]
I just wanted to point out that if what you said is true (Asian populations are growing, western populations are declining) then WoW would see a downturn in revenue, which has not happened. If I recall right, revenue was actually up in each quarter compared to the previous year.
The only thing I think anyone knows for certain is that wow remains at around the same subscription level since lich king released. There is more to that, but the available information makes it hard to see what exactly that is.
[2]
I think blizzard is well aware of their retention rates. I recall where blizzard was talking about their strategy and they are not fighting tooth and nail to become the only mmo that people play for years on end. They are aiming at giving a game that people will play for a while or at the same time as another game. They plan for people to leave and come back when new content comes out.
That isn't saying they are giving up on players, but realistically no game is going to retains players for years and years and continue to grow. Still wow has done a fabulous job of doing just that to various degrees. Furthermore I bet you anything well over half of the people here who "quit wow for the last time" will go back again for cataclysm. Just like we all say we will not get sucked into the hype of the next big release and then rush out to buy collectors versions and lifetime subscriptions.
LOL ewwww
Wow has been on decline since they merged the servers down to just 13 -- do not be fooled by the node you now connect to.. the battlegroup is the new blizzard term for a merged server group.
You are confusing US Battlegroups with US servers.
There are 598 servers worldwide right now (not counting the Chinese ones).
The battlegroups were introduced in 2006 and serve to offer cross server BG and arena competitions (and were the basis for the cross server dungeons).
Each Battlegroup consists of an average of 15 to 20 servers in the US.
That's an average of 200.000 players per Battlegroup.
That makes indeed for around 2.500.000 players on US servers.
The last 2 servers were added last month in Russia. They quadrapulled their server parc in the last 18 months over there.
1.2 billion US dollars revenu on a yearly basis.... from subscriptions.
No denying this.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
It's about f...ing time. Seriously, it was a great game but now it's old. You can't expect a game to keep going on forever. It is showing it's age. There are a lot of things that need to be upgraded.