okay, im telling you now i dont have much experience with older mmo's, but from what ive heard daoc, swg and uo to nambe a small few older does USSUALLY seem better.
i didnt notice this from mmo's but when i thought about it it seemed to apply to them.
what do you think.
yup back in the old gaming days..We did not have a map nor did we know where to hell to go..Everything was done by memory..The instruction were bare basic the rest we learn the "Curves" on our own...We had to use our brain..But todays game is a no brainer and point and click with a map....Yup we old gamers are smarter....:P
Mod edit corrections
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
The old games were not actually hard, no. Anyone with half a firing brain cell could play them. They were still mostly about time investment.
However this does stand in stark contrast to modern games which are made for people without half a firing braincell. Much more interesting than actually playing any of them is writing a computer program to play them because they are just soo tedious and God knows no sort of consciousness is required. (look, it even says so right there on the box!) These are the kind of things you play blacked out drunk, or sleepwalking on Ambien, otherwise i can hardly see the point.
I think that the older games didn't have this "weight" on their shoulders to be "the WoW killer" or whatever the catchphrase is of the month.
WoW did really good things and really bad things for the genre - things which are not worth talking about in this thread, because it would drag the thread too far off course.
The point of the statement is, though, that prior to WoW, MMOs were not so "mainstream," did not have 80 million dollar-plus budgets, and were not expected to bring in playerbases of one million-plus. They were not hyped to the levels of insanity (and inanity) that they are now...and that was not a bad thing, I don't think.
As recently as ten years ago, a playerbase of half a million in an MMO was successful beyond anyone's hopes and dreams. Even 300,000 was pretty remarkable. Launching with sixty servers - or even needing sixty servers...ever - was unthinkable. Today, a game launches with sixty servers, hits 200,000 players, closes fifty of those unnecessary servers, and is considered a failure.
Today, a game hits 150,000 players and is in danger of having the plug pulled on it. Ten years ago, it took a while to reach those kinds of numbers and they were solid numbers. Maybe not remarkable, but solid enough. But in the days of 11 million subscribers in the MMO freak of nature (as described by the publishers themselves), 150,000 - 300,000 players, which used to be solid to remarkable numbers, isn't good enough to keep the power on.
We're in the days of a generation who likes to have everything handed to them (us?) on a platter. A generation who prefers to sit down for 30-60 minutes and achieve something meaningful...but what is there that has meaning that can be achieved in 30-60 minutes? They (we?) want their (our?) games to mimic reality in so many ways...and yet, if the games mimic reality in the ways that count, they (we?) scream that they (we?) play to escape reality.
The older games made it so that things really did mimic reality in some ways: you wanted things, you worked for them. Achievements, armor, weapons, whatever - they were earned and earning them took a lot longer than running ICC 10/25 "x" number of times. It doesn't take a lot to be logged in at 6 pm server time every "x" number of hours to run the raid. I'm not saying ICC is "easy," don't misunderstand. But it's definitely easier than some of the things players had to do to earn things in earlier iterations of MMOs, which sometimes took months.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
I think that the older games didn't have this "weight" on their shoulders to be "the WoW killer" or whatever the catchphrase is of the month.
WoW did really good things and really bad things for the genre - things which are not worth talking about in this thread, because it would drag the thread too far off course.
The point of the statement is, though, that prior to WoW, MMOs were not so "mainstream," did not have 80 million dollar-plus budgets, and were not expected to bring in playerbases of one million-plus. They were not hyped to the levels of insanity (and inanity) that they are now...and that was not a bad thing, I don't think.
As recently as ten years ago, a playerbase of half a million in an MMO was successful beyond anyone's hopes and dreams. Even 300,000 was pretty remarkable. Launching with sixty servers - or even needing sixty servers...ever - was unthinkable. Today, a game launches with sixty servers, hits 200,000 players, closes fifty of those unnecessary servers, and is considered a failure.
Today, a game hits 150,000 players and is in danger of having the plug pulled on it. Ten years ago, it took a while to reach those kinds of numbers and they were solid numbers. Maybe not remarkable, but solid enough. But in the days of 11 million subscribers in the MMO freak of nature (as described by the publishers themselves), 150,000 - 300,000 players, which used to be solid to remarkable numbers, isn't good enough to keep the power on.
We're in the days of a generation who likes to have everything handed to them (us?) on a platter. A generation who prefers to sit down for 30-60 minutes and achieve something meaningful...but what is there that has meaning that can be achieved in 30-60 minutes? They (we?) want their (our?) games to mimic reality in so many ways...and yet, if the games mimic reality in the ways that count, they (we?) scream that they (we?) play to escape reality.
The older games made it so that things really did mimic reality in some ways: you wanted things, you worked for them. Achievements, armor, weapons, whatever - they were earned and earning them took a lot longer than running ICC 10/25 "x" number of times. It doesn't take a lot to be logged in at 6 pm server time every "x" number of hours to run the raid. I'm not saying ICC is "easy," don't misunderstand. But it's definitely easier than some of the things players had to do to earn things in earlier iterations of MMOs, which sometimes took months.
Well said. Warcraft brought in a different type of gamer. That can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it. This new type of gamer isn't one who's grown up with PnP RPGs, and many of them weren't raised on computer RPGs either, instead they bring a different kind of game mentality; There has to be some way to win. MMORPGs were never about winning and losing before, they were about adventure and advancement. Even PvP wasn't so much about winning as it was advancing your guild.
Now there has to be a way to win. Advancement is seen as a 'grind' to get to 'End Game' where supposedly the most important part of the game begins. I have yet to understand what 'End Game' really means. Is it just stuff to do when you have run out of 'stuff to do'? If your character has reached his max advancement wise, what good does raiding for gear do? I understand it from a PvP perspective, but as a purely PvE player what would be the point?
Older games are not necessarily better than newer games. What people deem better is largely a byproduct of time and chance. That coupled with the idea that people will forever be infatuated with their first, explains the entire nonsensical debate on old games vs. new games. The main thing you learn from these arguments is that everyone believes their opinion is the correct one and anyone who thinks otherwise is shunned. Don't you even think about making an objective statement or you will get beat by the shun-stick.
Exactly! The idea that older games are inherently better than newer games is ludicrous, otherwise why isn't there a massive movement to make every video game just like Pong? I remember when Pong was brand new, I had a home console version and you got to move your little puck up and down using a knob on a wired controller. You could even switch to "hockey" mode and get *2* little pucks! Wow, will the excitement never end?
But time marches on, like it or not and video games became more than just a little white puck on a black background with a couple of electronic sound effects. The idea that we ought to go back to that is absurd at best. I'm sure you still have people who yearn for the simplicity of Pong, but to say that's where the modern game world ought to be headed is ridiculous.
UO and EQ had a certain charm for the day they were made. I'd never want to play either of them today, they are far too primitive and had far too many problems. The world has moved on. Too bad some players are unable to.
The reason most of us liked those old games is more to do with the player base.
Newer players come from parents who spoil them. I see it with my friends children all the time. Ive delved into it a bit, and found out that a good number of people who started having kids want to give them all the things we didnt get back in the day.
So we have a whole generation of kids who are quite frankly used to getting whatever they want, and a pretty expedient time. You cant expect a child to sit at a dinner table for an hour waiting for gourmet food when youve been putting microwave hotpockets down infront of them to eat 30 seconds after they sat down for their whole lives.
The decline of complexity and depth in MMOs isnt really anyones fault. Like any underground activity that is really cool, it was bound to whored out eventually. (WoW)
MMO's are pretty much dead, they went from art and imagination, to money and subs.
You can quote natural progression all you want. Its not the progression of the games that are holding them back. Its the infusion of young people who dont grasp the concept of proper socializiation. 20 years ago if I ran my mouth to anyone the way todays players do online, I would have gotten my ass kicked by 20 people not including my parents.
Now you can take your jerk attitude online and get away with murder. Mom and dad have no idea that little Johnny is the biggest dick internet and hes proud of it. They have no idea that theyve spoiled him into a self centered brat. You cant blame them for that, they just wanted to give their kids the things they didnt have. Unfortunately its been over done.
You can argue with me all you like, but I think considering here in America that obesity is at an all time high while test scores are at an all time low, you cant deny that our youth are dumber and fatter than theyve ever been, and we have our fair share of them in MMOs.
Awesome post Arcken. You've thoughtfully put into words how I've been thinking for years.
okay, im telling you now i dont have much experience with older mmo's, but from what ive heard daoc, swg and uo to nambe a small few older does USSUALLY seem better.
i didnt notice this from mmo's but when i thought about it it seemed to apply to them.
what do you think.
yup back in the old gaming days..We did not have a map nor did we know where to hell to go..Everything was done by memory..The instruction were bare basic the rest we learn the "Curves" on our own...We had to use our brain..But todays game is a no brainer and point and click with a map....Yup we old gamers are smarter....:P
Mod edit corrections
Nah .. they are not smarter . just have higher tolerance for grunt work. I was there when Might and Magic 1 came out and i have stacks & stacks of HAND drawn grid maps. I was there in the first year of EQ. Anyone can draw a map. It is not like it is rocket science.
But most people do NOT WANT TO do it. It is just grunt work. I am glad that now we are getting away from all those less fun activities. I highly doubt i will ever play a game that requires me to draw a grid map again.
okay, im telling you now i dont have much experience with older mmo's, but from what ive heard daoc, swg and uo to nambe a small few older does USSUALLY seem better.
i didnt notice this from mmo's but when i thought about it it seemed to apply to them.
what do you think.
yup back in the old gaming days..We did not have a map nor did we know where to hell to go..Everything was done by memory..The instruction were bare basic the rest we learn the "Curves" on our own...We had to use our brain..But todays game is a no brainer and point and click with a map....Yup we old gamers are smarter....:P
Mod edit corrections
Nah .. they are not smarter . just have higher tolerance for grunt work. I was there when Might and Magic 1 came out and i have stacks & stacks of HAND drawn grid maps. I was there in the first year of EQ. Anyone can draw a map. It is not like it is rocket science.
But most people do NOT WANT TO do it. It is just grunt work. I am glad that now we are getting away from all those less fun activities. I highly doubt i will ever play a game that requires me to draw a grid map again.
It sometimes feel like some of these "old timers" want to have information chisled into stone tablets in sanskrit.. I'm sorry, that's not 'smarting up" a game, just making it more tedious..
Experiments in world simulation gameplay. There are still games like this out there. They just aren't the big names in the MMO genre anymore. Quit whining and go play them.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Older games are not necessarily better than newer games. What people deem better is largely a byproduct of time and chance. That coupled with the idea that people will forever be infatuated with their first, explains the entire nonsensical debate on old games vs. new games. The main thing you learn from these arguments is that everyone believes their opinion is the correct one and anyone who thinks otherwise is shunned. Don't you even think about making an objective statement or you will get beat by the shun-stick.
Exactly! The idea that older games are inherently better than newer games is ludicrous, otherwise why isn't there a massive movement to make every video game just like Pong? I remember when Pong was brand new, I had a home console version and you got to move your little puck up and down using a knob on a wired controller. You could even switch to "hockey" mode and get *2* little pucks! Wow, will the excitement never end?
But time marches on, like it or not and video games became more than just a little white puck on a black background with a couple of electronic sound effects. The idea that we ought to go back to that is absurd at best. I'm sure you still have people who yearn for the simplicity of Pong, but to say that's where the modern game world ought to be headed is ridiculous.
UO and EQ had a certain charm for the day they were made. I'd never want to play either of them today, they are far too primitive and had far too many problems. The world has moved on. Too bad some players are unable to.
The reason most of us liked those old games is more to do with the player base.
Newer players come from parents who spoil them. I see it with my friends children all the time. Ive delved into it a bit, and found out that a good number of people who started having kids want to give them all the things we didnt get back in the day.
So we have a whole generation of kids who are quite frankly used to getting whatever they want, and a pretty expedient time. You cant expect a child to sit at a dinner table for an hour waiting for gourmet food when youve been putting microwave hotpockets down infront of them to eat 30 seconds after they sat down for their whole lives.
The decline of complexity and depth in MMOs isnt really anyones fault. Like any underground activity that is really cool, it was bound to whored out eventually. (WoW)
MMO's are pretty much dead, they went from art and imagination, to money and subs.
You can quote natural progression all you want. Its not the progression of the games that are holding them back. Its the infusion of young people who dont grasp the concept of proper socializiation. 20 years ago if I ran my mouth to anyone the way todays players do online, I would have gotten my ass kicked by 20 people not including my parents.
Now you can take your jerk attitude online and get away with murder. Mom and dad have no idea that little Johnny is the biggest dick internet and hes proud of it. They have no idea that theyve spoiled him into a self centered brat. You cant blame them for that, they just wanted to give their kids the things they didnt have. Unfortunately its been over done.
You can argue with me all you like, but I think considering here in America that obesity is at an all time high while test scores are at an all time low, you cant deny that our youth are dumber and fatter than theyve ever been, and we have our fair share of them in MMOs.
Awesome post Arcken. You've thoughtfully put into words how I've been thinking for years.
Well considering that the majority of players in MMO's are about 30 (think the last stats said 28-34, you can look them up on this site). This means that most of the players today are in your and mine generation (your 32, I'm 34). This means that your entire post is wrong, and for most of the players we are not dealing with generational issues.
You may be able to make that claim about younger generations, and there are alot of them in todays MMO's but as long as the bulk is still around 30 your claim is not valid for the bulk.
And don't kid yourself. UO, EQ, SWG were not complicated. They just had a few extra timesinks.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
yup back in the old gaming days..We did not have a map nor did we know where to hell to go..Everything was done by memory..The instruction were bare basic the rest we learn the "Curves" on our own...We had to use our brain..But todays game is a no brainer and point and click with a map....Yup we old gamers are smarter....:P
Mod edit corrections
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
Mostly older games like to tell war stories bout their days spent in EQ or UO.
They say stuff like, 'this is easy, EQ/UO was hard. And we had to sit in the snow while we played'.
Or try to bait you into conversations with phrases like, 'you all think WoW was the first MMO? It wasn't'
Thing is, nobody cares about those old games. It was just a bunch of ephemeral data stored on magnetic media somewhere that have long since faded.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
The old games were not actually hard, no. Anyone with half a firing brain cell could play them. They were still mostly about time investment.
However this does stand in stark contrast to modern games which are made for people without half a firing braincell. Much more interesting than actually playing any of them is writing a computer program to play them because they are just soo tedious and God knows no sort of consciousness is required. (look, it even says so right there on the box!) These are the kind of things you play blacked out drunk, or sleepwalking on Ambien, otherwise i can hardly see the point.
I think that the older games didn't have this "weight" on their shoulders to be "the WoW killer" or whatever the catchphrase is of the month.
WoW did really good things and really bad things for the genre - things which are not worth talking about in this thread, because it would drag the thread too far off course.
The point of the statement is, though, that prior to WoW, MMOs were not so "mainstream," did not have 80 million dollar-plus budgets, and were not expected to bring in playerbases of one million-plus. They were not hyped to the levels of insanity (and inanity) that they are now...and that was not a bad thing, I don't think.
As recently as ten years ago, a playerbase of half a million in an MMO was successful beyond anyone's hopes and dreams. Even 300,000 was pretty remarkable. Launching with sixty servers - or even needing sixty servers...ever - was unthinkable. Today, a game launches with sixty servers, hits 200,000 players, closes fifty of those unnecessary servers, and is considered a failure.
Today, a game hits 150,000 players and is in danger of having the plug pulled on it. Ten years ago, it took a while to reach those kinds of numbers and they were solid numbers. Maybe not remarkable, but solid enough. But in the days of 11 million subscribers in the MMO freak of nature (as described by the publishers themselves), 150,000 - 300,000 players, which used to be solid to remarkable numbers, isn't good enough to keep the power on.
We're in the days of a generation who likes to have everything handed to them (us?) on a platter. A generation who prefers to sit down for 30-60 minutes and achieve something meaningful...but what is there that has meaning that can be achieved in 30-60 minutes? They (we?) want their (our?) games to mimic reality in so many ways...and yet, if the games mimic reality in the ways that count, they (we?) scream that they (we?) play to escape reality.
The older games made it so that things really did mimic reality in some ways: you wanted things, you worked for them. Achievements, armor, weapons, whatever - they were earned and earning them took a lot longer than running ICC 10/25 "x" number of times. It doesn't take a lot to be logged in at 6 pm server time every "x" number of hours to run the raid. I'm not saying ICC is "easy," don't misunderstand. But it's definitely easier than some of the things players had to do to earn things in earlier iterations of MMOs, which sometimes took months.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Well said. Warcraft brought in a different type of gamer. That can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it. This new type of gamer isn't one who's grown up with PnP RPGs, and many of them weren't raised on computer RPGs either, instead they bring a different kind of game mentality; There has to be some way to win. MMORPGs were never about winning and losing before, they were about adventure and advancement. Even PvP wasn't so much about winning as it was advancing your guild.
Now there has to be a way to win. Advancement is seen as a 'grind' to get to 'End Game' where supposedly the most important part of the game begins. I have yet to understand what 'End Game' really means. Is it just stuff to do when you have run out of 'stuff to do'? If your character has reached his max advancement wise, what good does raiding for gear do? I understand it from a PvP perspective, but as a purely PvE player what would be the point?
Awesome post Arcken. You've thoughtfully put into words how I've been thinking for years.
Nah .. they are not smarter . just have higher tolerance for grunt work. I was there when Might and Magic 1 came out and i have stacks & stacks of HAND drawn grid maps. I was there in the first year of EQ. Anyone can draw a map. It is not like it is rocket science.
But most people do NOT WANT TO do it. It is just grunt work. I am glad that now we are getting away from all those less fun activities. I highly doubt i will ever play a game that requires me to draw a grid map again.
It sometimes feel like some of these "old timers" want to have information chisled into stone tablets in sanskrit.. I'm sorry, that's not 'smarting up" a game, just making it more tedious..
Older games...
Experiments in world simulation gameplay. There are still games like this out there. They just aren't the big names in the MMO genre anymore. Quit whining and go play them.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Well considering that the majority of players in MMO's are about 30 (think the last stats said 28-34, you can look them up on this site). This means that most of the players today are in your and mine generation (your 32, I'm 34). This means that your entire post is wrong, and for most of the players we are not dealing with generational issues.
You may be able to make that claim about younger generations, and there are alot of them in todays MMO's but as long as the bulk is still around 30 your claim is not valid for the bulk.
And don't kid yourself. UO, EQ, SWG were not complicated. They just had a few extra timesinks.
Venge Sunsoar