General: The Old Curiosity Shop

Stradden · April 2010

MMORPG.com columnist Richard Aihoshi devotes his column inches this week to talking about a few things that arouse his curiosity within MMO culture.

Yes, another column title borrowed from Dickens. It simply seemed more appropriate than any other that came to mind once I'd settled on the topic.

No, I'm not about to propose any kind of comparison or parallel between the heartbreaking tale of Little Nell's fate and the free to play business model. Neither do I intend to take the direction that might come to mind of talking about unusual items available for sale in various games' cash shops - maybe another time though since there are definitely some out there.

Instead, the reference relates to my decision to discuss is a few thoughts that popped up recently, all of which share the fact I've considered them curious for much if not all of the time I've been covering the MMOG category.

The F2P space provides some pretty obvious examples. It's not hard at all to find self-proclaimed members of the "I'll never play any of them" club. I don't have the slightest expectation that I can convince those who are of this opinion to think otherwise. Not even a few, so although some seem convinced otherwise, I don't try. It's their prerogative to believe what they wish, and their doing so doesn't harm me in any way. And it hurts to bang my head against that wall or any other.

Read The Old Curiosity Shop.

Derrial · April 2010

The F2P space provides some pretty obvious examples. It's not hard at all to find self-proclaimed members of the "I'll never play any of them" club. I don't have the slightest expectation that I can convince those who are of this opinion to think otherwise. Not even a few, so although some seem convinced otherwise, I don't try. It's their prerogative to believe what they wish, and their doing so doesn't harm me in any way. And it hurts to bang my head against that wall or any other.
That said, it has always struck me as curious when these same people turn around and bemoan the lack of innovation in MMOs. It seems like they're at least partially contradicting themselves. If that's what they truly want, I would think they'd be prepared, indeed keen, to embrace change, and also to seek out thinking that doesn't stick to the beaten path. Instead, they appear to dismiss the possibility of finding it in games outside their subscription-based comfort zone.

When players talk about lack of innovation in MMOs they're talking about gameplay, not how they pay for the game. If a game came out that was a WoW clone but it accepted M&Ms and Skittles as its payment model, that wouldn't make it an innovative game, just another MMO lacking innovation which happens to have a very weird payment model. Coming up with innovative payment models is nothing more than developers working out ways to get players to pay more money. Why else would they mess with it?

Regarding the millions who enjoy F2P MMOFPS games without paying anything, I believe that's probably true, but those are casual players who aren't too concerned with achieving anything in the game and are just messing around in the game for fun. There's nothing wrong with that if that's your bag, but visitors to this site are more likely to be hardcore players who strive to be very successful in an MMO. We want to build up an uber high level character with all of the best stuff. In a F2P, your success in that area is measured in dollars spent.

OneLurve · April 2010

your success in that area is measured in dollars spent.

And that's the power of the Nerf! ^^

kattehus · April 2010

Originally posted by CayneJobb
We want to build up an uber high level character with all of the best stuff. In a F2P, your success in that area is measured in dollars spent.

And then there's the F2P models where everything you buy is fluff, and doesn't really interfere with your ingame "skills" (so to speak)..

EricDanie · April 2010

Originally posted by kattehus

Originally posted by CayneJobb
We want to build up an uber high level character with all of the best stuff. In a F2P, your success in that area is measured in dollars spent.

And then there's the F2P models where everything you buy is fluff, and doesn't really interfere with your ingame "skills" (so to speak)..

Wait... which F2P has a CS of 100% fluff and 0% functional items?

eric_w66 · April 2010

This column is a waste of valuable inter-tube space.

I could make a counter-column with a simple find/replace command: Change everything from F2P to P2P and ask Mr. "F2P's are godlike and P2P's all suck" what his answer would be.

Edit: Fixed typo.

lethys · April 2010

Anyone who doesn't want constant improvement as a consumer, even when things are good, is not a good consumer and is the kind of bottom feeder that would spend $15 on a map pack from Activision. Richard, buddy, you're making no sense. When we want innovation, we aren't saying we want to be able to buy a sword thats better than any in-game sword at a cash shop. We're saying we want something like long-term territorial control, even more seamless world, and player actions that actually matter.

People who are on this site are growing tired of both the dungeon crawlers and the Asian grinders. F2P games are both of these types of games combined. Not only that, in an F2P you buy your way to the top, which is the worst possibility of all. I'd rather pay to play WoW for another six months than be forced to play an F2P MMO for one month.

So if you want to play the next clone F2P down the line and pay $20 for the best helmet, go right ahead Rich. I get a very snooty vibe every time I read one of your "F2P games rulez" columns because you are telling me that I don't have a right to expect improvement in games. Every game genre but this one has improved in the six years since WoW was released. The MMO market, however, seems to want to go backwards.

Callagan · April 2010

See, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I doubt many cash shop haters really hate the cash shop idea. After all, not too many people complain about you being able to buy pets and other fluff items.

We just hate the companies that operate them.

Unlike in subscription MMOs, F2Ps w/ cash shops have no industry standard for how much you pay for the game. As long as the titan that is World of Warcraft continues to cost 15$ a month, subscription MMOs will cost the same if they want to succeed. On the other hand, there is a lot less control over greed with a cash shop. Companies will let you play the game for free, sure, but if you want to truly experience the game, you best be ready to lay down some serious money. Prices per month can (and frequently do) require much more than a similar subscription MMO for anyone wanting to spend serious time on the game.

I don't think that F2P games w/ cash shops are doomed to failure, though. All we need is one that is willing to release a quality product and keep its own greed in check. A triple-A MMO with a cash shop can, and likely will be, a success, maybe even more so than comparable subscription titles. All it takes are the suits setting reasonable prices and allowing enough time to create a quality game.

WSIMike · April 2010

Oh look, Mr. Aioshi's decided to dedicate another article to categorically and disingenuously knocking an entire cross-section of people who don't love his beloved F2P model.

And this one in particular is chock full of BS.

So, where to begin?

The F2P space provides some pretty obvious examples. It's not hard at all to find self-proclaimed members of the "I'll never play any of them" club. I don't have the slightest expectation that I can convince those who are of this opinion to think otherwise. Not even a few, so although some seem convinced otherwise, I don't try. It's their prerogative to believe what they wish, and their doing so doesn't harm me in any way. And it hurts to bang my head against that wall or any other.

So, since you can't "convince" those of us who simply dont' like the F2P model to see things the way you do, it's better to just take pot-shots and make snarky generalizations about us, is that it? It would certainly be far beneath you to actually discuss, debate and defend the claims you make... No no... You are *far* too important to engage in actual conversation with those reading and disagreeing with those one-sided exercises in self-edification you call "columns".

That you describe trying to "convince" us that F2P is "the shiznit" as "pounding your head against a wall" says more about your mentality than you may realize. If only we realized how *wrong* we are... right?

That said, it has always struck me as curious when these same people turn around and bemoan the lack of innovation in MMOs. It seems like they're at least partially contradicting themselves. If that's what they truly want, I would think they'd be prepared, indeed keen, to embrace change, and also to seek out thinking that doesn't stick to the beaten path. Instead, they appear to dismiss the possibility of finding it in games outside their subscription-based comfort zone.

Bull. Shit.

I've played a number of F2P MMOs. I have not witnessed one iota of innovation in a single one. They were either WoW clones, or Lineage 2 clones... some slightly better than others. That's it. None of them were innovative, at all.

That said... exactly how many times must it be said, by how many people, before it gets through that thick skull of yours that what many people don't like about F2P is the *payment model* itself?

Also, here's another concept to "beat your head against" - Innovation has nothing to do with the game being P2P or F2P. Don't get me wrong, your attempt to make "innovation" and "F2P" seem synonymous didn't go unnoticed... It's just a load of crap.

How about this... I know it's an act in futility asking you to condescend to respond to us lowly forum dwellers, but how about *you* provide some examples of this innovation you speak of? What, exactly, is this "innovation" we're so unwilling to acknowledge? Enlighten us, oh great one.

In addition, if I decide, whether after due consideration or not, that something just isn't for me, why is it a problem if other people accept and even like it? As a personal example, I've never been a big fan of shooters, and that disinclination has carried over from single-player games into the MMO realm. So, I seldom play them - more than not at all, but not by very much. But hey, for those who are into them, cool. Go enjoy.

Good point. Why don't you ask that same question to those who can't seem to tolerate the idea that there are those who prefer P2P and don't like F2P. Oh... didn't notice that particular door swings both ways, did ya.

Perhaps the most common response is another of my curiosities. Deprecate whatever the thing in question is. Make it out to be undesirable. For anyone. Justify refusing to play any F2P MMOFPS by reasoning that it's only possible to have fun in them by spending a lot of money. This blithely ignores the fact that millions of people - a substantial large majority of users - play them while paying nothing at all. Do all those people like not enjoying themselves? Apparently so.

Ahhh yes the "majority of players don't pay a dime" spin.

I'll ask again, as I do every time I see that statement made...

Of that majority - how many are playing the game to its fullest? How many are doing the end-game content? How many are playing right along side those do pay and able to keep up with them step for step without paying a dime? How many of those accounts were merely trials to check the game out? How many of them play past the first 20 or 30 levels before the real grind of the game sets in? How many even played *to* level 20 or 30? How many created an account and played for a week? A few days? A day? A few hours?

Without that kind of break-down to see exactly how the numbers fall, that statement is *pointless*. It's no more convincing than a P2P developer stating "millions of accounts!" without explaining exactly what they're counting as accounts... for all we know, they're including free trials and inactive accounts.

Defenders of F2P are so quick to make that statement, yet none of them can provide one bit of information showing how that "majority" breaks down. I wager the numbers wouldn't be nearly as impressive as they seem... Perhaps that's a reason why no one's released any such numbers yet? Hmmm...

The question always left lingering after reading one of these articles by you, Mr. Aioshi... is how the hell does MMORPG.com continue to let you post columns here?

Dwarvish · April 2010

I'll start with the last statement. In answer..Mr Aioshi's job is to write about the FTP model. Why do people have troule remembering this?????

As far as inovation goes, there ar precious few games that truly inovate. Some FTP with item shops at least give the opportunity to put as much or as little as the individual player decides to..based on what they are looking for to be able to enjoy the game. And ...its true, a large majority choose to pay nothing. I played a mud that offerred goodies in return for donations and fewer than 20% ever made any donations at all. There was a base of about 10% that made donations on a regular basis. I know this from talking to the owner of the mud. There is no reason to believe peeps are more generous in a FTP game

People who make statements like ' I just don't like the FTP model don't shed any light on what the percieved problem is..

There are good FTP and bad PTP regardless of price.

Comparing the choice to play a FPS and a FTP/PTP is just silly. Here we have a difference in game play type that is the determining factor. Choosing or rejecting a game because it is a FTP ot PTP is a choice not based at all on game play. There have been some very good..and bad FTP and PTP games. Its smarter to base a choice on the game as a whole. FTP models, if done right don't affect game play. Guild Wars is a good example of this. If the model causes an imbalance I move on. That said....if the item shop payments come out to around what it would cost if the game were a PTP I don;'t have a problem with this as long as I enjoy the game..which, in the end is all that matters

I

slashbeast · April 2010

Originally posted by EricDanie

Originally posted by kattehus

Originally posted by CayneJobb
We want to build up an uber high level character with all of the best stuff. In a F2P, your success in that area is measured in dollars spent.

And then there's the F2P models where everything you buy is fluff, and doesn't really interfere with your ingame "skills" (so to speak)..

Wait... which F2P has a CS of 100% fluff and 0% functional items?

guildwars

@ richard

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'll not play a F2P game with a cash shop that sells stuff like armor, weapons and consumables. If this is the route MMOs are headed then count me out.

JYCowboy · April 2010

Originally posted by lethys

...

So if you want to play the next clone F2P down the line and pay $20 for the best helmet, go right ahead Rich. I get a very snooty vibe every time I read one of your "F2P games rulez" columns because you are telling me that I don't have a right to expect improvement in games. Every game genre but this one has improved in the six years since WoW was released. The MMO market, however, seems to want to go backwards.

Thats what I like to call the "WOW effect". What you have is WOW's unfathomable success with a non-sandbox model. Bean Counters have learned this and reject any devlopement that can be identified as simular to world simulation. They will use cost effectiveness studies to wish such innovations away. WHY? Cutting cost of developement of fluff features that don't fit the proven model.

As to this F2P artical, it sounds like Richard is getting a bit tired of the F2P vs. P2P argument thrust on him each posting. The funny thing I see is his columns never reach those that might agree with him as they are too casual to care.

WSIMike · April 2010

Originally posted by Dwarvish

I'll start with the last statement. In answer..Mr Aioshi's job is to write about the FTP model. Why do people have troule remembering this?????

I'm assuming you're responding to the closing question of my post.

So, that said... I think the context of my question was quite obvious based upon the rest of my post. I don't think there are many here who has "trouble remembering" the fact, that he's here to write about the F2P sector of the MMO market. That's not what I meant by my question.

I think it's great to have someone covering the F2P portion of the MMO market. It's a substantial portion of it, and deserves recognition. I just believe MMORPG.com could find someone far better qualified than the glorified forum fanboy they currently have.

People who make statements like ' I just don't like the FTP model don't shed any light on what the percieved problem is..

Plenty of people have noted, plenty of times, exactly why they don't like the F2P model. Does everyone articulate their opinions? No, of course not. But then again... Aioshi is guilty of that in every column he writes where he declares how wonderful F2P is and how clueless and lost and "in denial" those who don't agree with him are. That he continues to make the generalizations he does in his columns about us "anti F2P" people only proves that he either doesn't bother actually *reading* what people say, or he's so caught up in his own spin that he wouldn't accept it anyway.

UNOCK · April 2010

Now here is the biggest question I have to the people that hate F2P models and everyone supporting them...

What is the problem? As far as I've seen, utterly FEW of them has more than a one-time fee for the item of your choice - unless it's a consumable in which case you'll have to re-pay once it's consumed. The consumables however, rarely has such a major impact on the game that you would *need* them to play the game to it's full.

So then, for that awesomesauce helmet that you can't get without buying it from the Item Shop, you'll need to pay one time...

WoW and other Subscription Models you pay one time per month - regardless of how much you play that month. To log in once, during that month, you must pay the same standard fee. Whereas in a F2P game, you pay one time, when you please, because you please, and you can still log in whenever, without having to repay.

You don't commit yourself to having to play for that full month to get your moneys worth. And either way, you still have to pay. So then, if you have to pay either way, what's the problem? Realize already that "F2P" means "Free To Play Casually and Limited" like the people that actually play this genre.

As for a question earlier: It's hard for a F2P FPS game to keep running without having necessary items in the shop, because they have a limited amount of items to sell. They can't sell cute wuggly pets, or special items for you to pimp your character to look like an emo FF character. Either they stuff in the best weapons and armors in there, or they shut down the servers because there won't be people paying to keep them up (Yes people, companies need to get in money, so they can pay their bills and keep the game running... shocking ain't it?)

And would you stop with your personal crusades because you and Mr. Aioshi don't meet eye to eye? It is indeed the purpose to start a discussion, it is NOT the purpose to start a discussion about how Mr. Aioshi sucks... it's supposed to start a discussion about the subject Mr. Aioshi wrote about - P2P Gamers refusing to accept anything other than their safe monthly subscriptions as a viably means to fund a game. Is this true? Y/N discuss...

That said - I for one, will be looking forward to Aioshi's next article. Because he always say relevant things, that are accurate according to the subject - whether you P2P fans like it or not.

slashbeast · April 2010

Originally posted by UNOCK

Now here is the biggest question I have to the people that hate F2P models and everyone supporting them...

What is the problem? As far as I've seen, utterly FEW of them has more than a one-time fee for the item of your choice - unless it's a consumable in which case you'll have to re-pay once it's consumed. The consumables however, rarely has such a major impact on the game that you would *need* them to play the game to it's full.

So then, for that awesomesauce helmet that you can't get without buying it from the Item Shop, you'll need to pay one time...

WoW and other Subscription Models you pay one time per month - regardless of how much you play that month. To log in once, during that month, you must pay the same standard fee. Whereas in a F2P game, you pay one time, when you please, because you please, and you can still log in whenever, without having to repay.

You don't commit yourself to having to play for that full month to get your moneys worth. And either way, you still have to pay. So then, if you have to pay either way, what's the problem? Realize already that "F2P" means "Free To Play Casually and Limited" like the people that actually play this genre.

As for a question earlier: It's hard for a F2P FPS game to keep running without having necessary items in the shop, because they have a limited amount of items to sell. They can't sell cute wuggly pets, or special items for you to pimp your character to look like an emo FF character. Either they stuff in the best weapons and armors in there, or they shut down the servers because there won't be people paying to keep them up (Yes people, companies need to get in money, so they can pay their bills and keep the game running... shocking ain't it?)

And would you stop with your personal crusades because you and Mr. Aioshi don't meet eye to eye? It is indeed the purpose to start a discussion, it is NOT the purpose to start a discussion about how Mr. Aioshi sucks... it's supposed to start a discussion about the subject Mr. Aioshi wrote about - P2P Gamers refusing to accept anything other than their safe monthly subscriptions as a viably means to fund a game. Is this true? Y/N discuss...

That said - I for one, will be looking forward to Aioshi's next article. Because he always say relevant things, that are accurate according to the subject - whether you P2P fans like it or not.

Because we don't want to play with people who buy that awesome item that could otherwise only be obtainable by acutally working for it. Instant gratification is ,as most would say, " noobish " or " unfair ."

What's the point of even playing if you can just buy everything in one spend and say " Yay i beat the game... "

This IMO would cause F2P item shop MMOs to have less replay value...because there are no set goals or anything when you can just buy it without working toward something.

It's very disheartening that this business model has gotten as popular as it has and truely a sad day for gaming in general.

Loktofeit · April 2010

Originally posted by slashbeast

What's the point of even playing if you can just buy everything in one spend and say " Yay i beat the game... "

What percentage of F2P MMOs do you feel that scenario exists in?

Khalathwyr · April 2010

Well, to sate Aihoshi's "curiosity", when people in the majority on this site talk about innovation they are referring to gameplay and mechanics in the vast majority. I'm sure that majority is around the high 90s percentile. They are fine and happy with the way they pay for games and innovation in the aforementioned areas of desire does not absolutly coincide with the pay model being used. That said, from reading the descriptions of gameplay for the F2P games I have and having been in this realm of gaming since 1997 I feel comfortable in my ability to analyze said gameplay description and see that that there really haven't been any big innovations that are somehow only available via a F2P game.

Looking at my list of games under my profile you can see that I have tried F2P. In fact it is missing one, Runes of Magic which I tried on the advice of Kyleran (not personal but I read once where he played it an liked it ok and since I agree with much of what he write I thought why not). That stated it is doesn't take a scholar or an MMO vet (the two are by no means one and the same) to see via the item shops of both games that there comes a time when your play, especially your competitive play, is influenced heavily by the dollars you spend. RoM offers changing in-game money for diamonds, sure. The catch line is that it takes a great deal of high level farming to purchase said diamonds in any significant amount.

Just as you feel about FPS games you should adopt that stance with others and F2P games. Lassiez Faire, a term that finds its origins before Dicken's time. Instead of dedicating article after article...okay, to be fair, every other article as to why those who don't like F2P feel as they do why not instead write articles about what your F2P developers are doing in their space and with their games. You know, things that the bulk of your F2P adopters would actually find of interest?

FreedomBlade · April 2010

Well what a shit article.

WSIMike · April 2010

Originally posted by UNOCK

Now here is the biggest question I have to the people that hate F2P models and everyone supporting them...

Well let's see... You start off with a false premise... I don't recall anyone saying they *hate* people who support F2P. So, that's strike one right off the bat.

What is the problem? As far as I've seen, utterly FEW of them has more than a one-time fee for the item of your choice - unless it's a consumable in which case you'll have to re-pay once it's consumed. The consumables however, rarely has such a major impact on the game that you would *need* them to play the game to it's full.

People I've spoken to in the mid and especially high-end game where the content gets tougher and, especially in PvP MMOs where the goal is to outlast your opponent would beg to disagree. Consumables, such as health and mana pots or those "tokens" that automatically replenish up to a few thousand are *very* necessary.

How far have you gotten into the mid/high level range in a F2P MMO - and which F2P MMO is it - where you've engaged in all the same content, at the same level, with the same level of involvement as people who buy from the item mall, and haven't paid a dime in one yourself?

So then, for that awesomesauce helmet that you can't get without buying it from the Item Shop, you'll need to pay one time...

Yes... because one "awesomesauce" helmet is all any item shop would ever offer, right?

WoW and other Subscription Models you pay one time per month - regardless of how much you play that month. To log in once, during that month, you must pay the same standard fee. Whereas in a F2P game, you pay one time, when you please, because you please, and you can still log in whenever, without having to repay.

Yes, and for that standard fee per month you get access to *everything* in the game, just like everyone else. Everyone has the same ability to do content or not do content as they see fit. Want to get that "awesomesauce" helmet that you see other people wearing? You can get it, without spending another dime. Or, you can choose not to.... either way, you know they didn't have to pull out the wallet to get it, and neither do you. You obtain it by playing the game.

And since you're going to talk about fees... People who use the item mall can very easily pay *more* in them than you would pay for a monthly sub... and that could be for *a single item*. Right in the video of the panel put together by MMORPG.com, in the second part, one of the panelists says, in plain English that a benefit of Item Mall games is that you can monetize the players for more than that $15 you get for a monthly sub - that's the reality of why developers make F2P MMOs. Go watch the video yourself. It's plain as day.

They're not doing it out of the kindness of their heart because they feel gamers deserve a full and rich gaming experience and never have to pay a dime for it. They choose F2P/Item Malls because they know they can nickel and dime the players for more.

But hey... you want to play a game where you can, and people have, potentially spend $100 or more in a single month just to be on par with other players, have at it. I'll take that $100 and get almost 6 months of subscription out of it, while having access to all that same gear, and then some.

Also, you're paying that $15 a month for access to their servers, bandwidth, GMs, etc... as well as everything in the game... You never have to pull out your wallet to buy this... or buy that.. It's all available by *playing the game*.

I find it funny when people argue that Item Malls are the better bargain because you "only only have to pay for what you want". The level of willful ignorance is staggering.

You don't commit yourself to having to play for that full month to get your moneys worth. And either way, you still have to pay. So then, if you have to pay either way, what's the problem? Realize already that "F2P" means "Free To Play Casually and Limited" like the people that actually play this genre.

Commit to having to play for that full month? Really? You really want to spin it that way? Tell me, when's the last time you felt you had to commit to playing *any* game for any amount of time, when you enjoyed playing it? I don't know about you, but I play a MMO because I *enjoy* it. It's not a "commitment", it's a "hobby".

You talk about getting your money's worth? Okay let's talk about that.

Let's use an example of, say $15 a month, the standard sub rate.

If you play very consistently, say 3 hours a night during the week and 5 hours a day on the weekends... 25 hours for the week - a pretty considerable amount of time. That's 100 hours in a 4 week month. You're paying a *whopping* 15 cents an hour... and that's only for the time you're playing.

What if you're having a slower week and can only play, say.. 2 hours a night, 3 days a week, and maybe 3 hours a day on the weekend... That's 12 hours a week or 48 hours for the month. You're spending a whopping 31 cents an hour.

Let's go super casual... 1 hour a night, 3 nights a week, 4 hours for the weekend, total... 28 hours for the month. 53 cents an hour.

You would have to play less than 15 hours in a month to even break one dollar an hour. And I don't know of anyone who would say $1 for an hour of entertainment is a "bad deal".

But let's take your example... someone who feels they have to get every moment they can in on the game to "get their money's worth"... so they play 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week and 5 hours a day on the weekend... 120 hours a month. That person is sweating bullets, trying to squeeze every penny of value in at a whopping 12 cents per hour.

Meanwhile... Bob in some F2P MMO decides he wants an "awesomesauce helmet". The item shop has it for the equivalent of $10. And he's only on day 1 one of the month, and there are other items - equipment, consumables, expanded inventory space and any manner of other items that he knows he's going to want throughout the month... He's looking at spending *easily* beyond a mere $15 by his second purchase...

For the cost of our hypothetical "awesomesauce helmet", a single item, I have almost a full sub fee for an entire month worth of gameplay, in which I can obtain anything in the game I want... by playing it.

And you really ask who gets the better bargain for their money?

As for a question earlier: It's hard for a F2P FPS game to keep running without having necessary items in the shop, because they have a limited amount of items to sell. They can't sell cute wuggly pets, or special items for you to pimp your character to look like an emo FF character. Either they stuff in the best weapons and armors in there, or they shut down the servers because there won't be people paying to keep them up (Yes people, companies need to get in money, so they can pay their bills and keep the game running... shocking ain't it?)

Ahh.. yes... another favorite of the F2P proponent... The plea to reason.. "They have to make money after all!" Yes, they're in business.. that's their goal. Perhaps you should be telling that to the people who seem to think the game was designed with the intention of never having to pay a dime no matter how much you play... like it's some kind of charity. They don't seem to get that concept.

That said, yes, they have to make money, and they chose a F2P Item Mall game, so yes... they're going to want to make it where people feel compelled to buy stuff, or they go out of business. But that's only part of it... the reality, again, is why they choose F2P instead of sub...

Go back toward the beginning of my post, where I mention the person saying how they can monetize their players for more than a $15 a month sub fee. *That's* why they're using the cash shop. They're not merely trying to "stay in business", they're trying to nickel and dime their players for *more* than a sub-based MMO would cost.

They do it because they know they can nickel-and-dime players to get even *more* out of them than a sub fee... you know... that thing that you claim players feel they have to "commit to playing every day to get their money's worth"?

And would you stop with your personal crusades because you and Mr. Aioshi don't meet eye to eye? It is indeed the purpose to start a discussion, it is NOT the purpose to start a discussion about how Mr. Aioshi sucks... it's supposed to start a discussion about the subject Mr. Aioshi wrote about - P2P Gamers refusing to accept anything other than their safe monthly subscriptions as a viably means to fund a game. Is this true? Y/N discuss...

Wait... *Our* personal crusade? Are you reading the same articles as we are? We are not the ones using the position of a site contributor to regularly dismiss, disregard and take passive-aggressive pot-shots at people who don't agree with us, telling people they're "in denial" if we don't share his perspective, completely twisting what people say out of context.

His "people don't like F2P but yet complain about lack of innovation" in this article is a wonderful example of his particular brand of BS. People complain about all MMOs of late due to their lack of innovation - F2P or otherwise. People don't like F2P because of the payment model, and we've said it over, and over... and over... and over again. Yet, eh ignores that completely and decides to depict us as being "against innovation".

We're not on a "crusade" against Aioshi. We're simply telling him he's full of crap.

Maybe you should be asking him about *his* crusade?

That said - I for one, will be looking forward to Aioshi's next article. Because he always say relevant things, that are accurate according to the subject - whether you P2P fans like it or not.

No... he doesn't say things that are accurate according to the subject... Again... It has been discussed, many times over, why people who don't like F2P and Item Malls don't like them. With examples... and break-downs... and numbers. Yet he turns around and paints it as some great mystery, that we don't like F2P even though we want innovation... Give me a frigging break. Perhaps to a card-carrying "Church of Aioshi" member, the issue isn't obvious... To those of us *not* wearing blinders... it's plain as day.

swyftty2 · April 2010

the most epic and expected lols. I am an agree'er with author. but i have stipulations.

for one most games will never really expand their seemlessness in maps or do anything game changing in the p2p market. wow is one perfect example. along with eq. they both add periodic expansions and keep the same grind methods a good portion of f2p mmo's have.

with that said. i look and play all games f2p. i was complaining my self , in conjunction with a friend, about how items should be more upgradable. As in we want items that are good from the time your lvl 1-150. I have only ever encountered one game that did an attempt at this. that's talisman online.

the other complaints are common but i found the solution in an unsuspecting game that has many nice features. i went to an anime style(term used loosely) and found i liked the ether saga. it has gear that is swapped less often than some (every 15 lvls) and has many upgradable features. the map is indeed seemless run and is not overly vast when compared to movement speed ( does not take 4hrs to run across). auto run to features for random quest people/monsters. potions are done in semi not spamable though are still quick. mounts are unique and most anything can be a pet.

i my self used to not want to touch any game that was not realistic looking after i got done with TOP. however relating back, you usualy find what your looking for in improvements is in unlikely areas. paying and better graphics will not be everything when looking for a great game.

buy games then f2p server is really my fave style though. these are often times instacers but are my fave style always. great gameplay. story line is entertaining. graphics are superior since i had to buy it. the list goes on. you will never get realistic graphics from a wow game becuase thats not the intent. however a nice game like assassins creed...... what more need be said.

games i think will be great and is lilely what people are waiting for:

diablo 3

gw 2

blade and soul

UNOCK · April 2010

In response too: WSIMike.

You don't hate us fair enough - That's called an exaggeration, to create a point. If you truly did hate people for playing games of opposing business models, then I would be drawing connections with Nazies.

Pots, is always in the game - you may find them as random drops, or buy them as needed in the numbers which you can afford. If you buy them from a store, it's time saving only. I do not PvP as I've never found any enjoyment in it - whenever you win, you get called a hacker and whenever you loose the opponent is gloating and whoever lost with you is calling the opponent a hacker. Not something I voluntarily put myself into. Thereby, I have never had any need of any item instantly replenishing my health at a certain point – seeing as how I don't think it's my place to comment upon the things I have not personally experienced, I did not include that in my previous post. They are available in some games, yes. (by far not every) And I am now truly sorry for not including every damn item in every damn game to create a point. I shall remember to do so next time, for your convenience.

And I don't tend to give up a good game until I'm in the late mid- early high levels, so I'd say I've been there quite a few times. I don't tend to buy stuff from item shops. Because unlike you: I don't HAVE TO SPEND MONEY (excuse the caps but I thought the point needed to be made). If I want to get to the endgame contents without paying, I will get there. There is no MMORPG I have played so far, I could not get to the point I was at, without having paid. To take a prime example: Perfect World - If you did not want to spend money on the elite items in the cash-shop, pay with in-game money. (someone, somewhere did indeed have to pay for your item, but decided to either sell their Item Shop currency to you, or the item which they bought with said Item Shop currency) Of course, the most epic gear came from dungeons and rare drops. Play an F2P game, and grind. You'll suddenly see, that there isn't all that much a difference from WoW, except that quests are less frequent, and you can (can) get an easier experience. But... it never struck any of you to try, did it? You just heard "you can buy such and such" and decided this game makes you pay for gear so you don't want to play it.

And no, the stores does not offer a sole awesomesauce helmet (that was a reference to an earlier post, which referred to a helmet of superior quality) Most often, they offer one helmet per class... and then a following suit of armor... Perhaps they will have lower quality gear, with lower level requirements, for lower costs even... If they sell gear directly in the item shop (IT IS NOT A GIVEN THAT THEY DO(excuse the caps, but I thought I should point that out as well))

And I'm sorry if you expected the F2P part of this genre to be charity causes, but it's kinda the big logical conclusion to arrive upon: You need to earn money. When you pay for something, it's because somewhere down the line, someone needs money to do something. Most often, you pay much more than you need, because someone wants more than everyone else. If anyone sincerely thought something differently, they would be naive beyond comprehension.

YES: you CAN spend MORE in a F2P game than in a subscription model. You CAN also spend LESS, and PLAY MORE. If you buy one set of gear for PvP and one automatic healthreplenisher for 400K HP (that's the highest I've spotted so far) for a grand total of 15$ (costing more than that, would require connections to be made to GPotato and their Allods messup) And you happen to play for two months without making another purchase (you were real good in PvP and didn't loose that much HP those two months - or you got lucky and a friend quit giving you access to his stocked up bank character filled with such automatic healthreplenishment or whichever reason you like for not spending more money because this did not happen and does not necessarily need to be a true estimate therefore do not pick upon exactness of it, but the point which it makes(yes, it does seem you are more content with taking apart the examples rather than the points they make)) You have now paid half the amount than a normal subscription model. One month, you might spend 100 dollars, yes... the next year, you might spend less than 5... Say an average of 2.5... so, for a year long subscription to WoW is what... 180$? So then, lets say that some months you spent a bit more than the average of 2.5 and no months did you spend less than 2.5 USD... You spent during that year a total of 140$

If you can find me a person that HAS TO SPEND 100$ a month to be able to do everything all the players of subscription models can, then I will tell you that he found a really crappy game - either that or this person has a compulsive disorder. Yes, you might need to spend 100$ of a grand total to get everything, but eventually, you will have spent equally much on WoW, correct? In the end... the only real difference between a F2P game and a P2P game, is the fact that you can buy some items to make it an easier experience - whereas WoW cannot create an experience that is not easy, because they have nothing to offer to make it easier. And when everyone is spending money, they expect to get a turnout . And when everyone expects turnout, it better be dang easy because face it... some people just plain suck.

Now, for your last relevant point to the subject: Yes, yes indeed they chose this subscription model because they saw a chance for greater profit... "We'll earn more if we do that, so let's do this" is not something a company which requires money will say... This is basics... The MMO market however, does not allow for companies to just launch a game and put all the epics in the cash-shop. Actually, you are seeing more and more games which are going away from such practices and putting more useless items (pretty-pets, your favorite Final Fantasy lookalike-no stats gear (which can indeed be added over the armor so you still get bonuses(I've seen games which you could actually transfer the stats of your armor over to said bought FF lookalike armor as well))) into the shops, and more useful items into the game itself. Black Prophecy and Battles of Immortals to mention two that promise such things, or at least a significant decrease.

And yes, YES! YOUR PERSONAL CRUSADE! Aihoshi (PS: Sorry for misspelling that in the previous post) has all relevant points. I am not certain what this genre is called in English, but where I'm from at the very least, we have a genre which incorporates this type of writing - a text, written about a subject, from your point of view (I know it's hard, but do try to realize other people have opinions as well, that may be more correct than your own) which may also employ sarcasm, superiority, humor, you get the picture? And besides, if he were to write it from your point of view, he wouldn't be doing his job proper, would he? You know... writing about the F2P part of the market...

As for validating his points: Fantasy Earth Online incorporates RTS elements in it's PvP. Tales of Fantasy incorporates Mounted Combat, Battles of the Immortals has their ever changing Soul Gear, Perfect World has full fledged air combat... There's innovation all over the F2P market, if you'd bother to look. No, they aren't all in the SAME GAME, but can you find me a game, single player or not, which incorporates only revolutionary concepts and nothing which conforms with the norm?

EDIT: Took away the quote because the post was too damn long, and tried making it less of a block of text and easier to read.

PS: The first person to quote me: Thank you for the first actually decent answer I got. I wish everyone would bother to answer like that, rather than restating the same answers which makes me ask the same question in the end, if only elaborated.

PPS: Thought I'd add the new an elaborated question in honor of WSIMike: What is the problem? As far as I've seen utterly few has items which are more than a one time fee, and you still have to pay no matter which game you choose, so why bother to refuse playing one game while continuing playing another which just places a deadline upon your payment?

PPPS: COULD PEOPLE STOP JUDING A GAME SIMPLY FROM THE FACT THAT IT'S F2P/P2P?! The game, is irrelevant to it's payment model. If you had to pay 60 bucks over twelve months or sixty bucks up front for your favorite game, would it matter to you?!

BlackWatch · April 2010

If I could block all F2P advertisements on this site... I would.

I'd love to see MMORPG.COM split into 2 distinct areas. 1 for F2P games, and another for P2P games. NO F2P advertisements on the P2P side.

eric_w66 · April 2010

Originally posted by UNOCK
That said - I for one, will be looking forward to Aioshi's next article. Because he always say relevant things, that are accurate according to the subject - whether you P2P fans like it or not.

You're in the vast minority of readers. Mr. Aioshi's next article will probably be something like this: "F2P roxx0rs, P2P sucks. Fans of P2P are stupid for not recognizing F2P is far superior to P2P."

Since that's been the content of almost all his previous articles, I don't see why he'd switch up.

Ceridith · April 2010

I fail to see the point of this column, aside from Aihoshi's attempt to justify his previous bashing of gamers who dislike the F2P model.

Some people simply dislike the uneven playing field based around swiping your credit card to advance that the F2P game tends to lean towards. I know some people enjoy those types of games, and I have no problem with that, they're free to spend their time and money how they want. Why is it so hard for people like Aihoshi to accept that such a concept makes such games unenjoyable for many others? Aihoshi is worse than the people he claims have an "irrational" dislike of the F2P model, as he is not acting with any professionalism when it comes to this topic.

This article has added nothing of value to the general discussion about F2P models, and only serves to stir up more animosity on both sides. Why is he still allowed to contribute this kind of tripe to the website?

Krygon · April 2010

Cost fo f2p and p2p aside, are there any f2p games that have the same quality and content as p2p's.

Games like WOW, lotr, AoC, CoH-Cov, EQ2 and on an on are to be compared with games like PW2, RoM, Shaiya, cabal, ryzom on an on......(just throwing some out there of the top of my head).

I've played plenty of both and found that while yes you can play f2p without spending money you are always behind the ones that do. You can play for free, but it comes at the cost of not having as much fun as the ones that do pay. And the amount you need to pay is always more than a sub fee for p2p games. No pay=No fun.

Of the small few games I threw out there they dont even come close to being in the same league. Just my opinion here but the p2p's are much better games. So how can any game dev's expect me to pay more for a game that is below p2p standards?

As for the op....what is this guys problem? Having read only a few of his articles he always comes off like he thinks he's so much smarter than everybody that doesn't like f2p games. If he was half as smart as he thinks he is he would know the quality of p2p and f2p are not even close and for anyone to spend more than $15 a month on them is a joke. So just once i would like him tell why he thinks these f2p's are better, instead of just saying their the next big thing. My guess is he really knows his article is a bunch of b.s. and is just doing his job and collecting his check.

So mr. Aihoshi, can you tell us WHY f2p's are so great, instead of just saying we're stupid if we dont like them?

I love this site and the only thing i've found here that is unpleasant is Aihoshi, he's being paid to build up f2p games and attract players, but i really dont think, as smart as he thinks he is, that he is intelligent enough to earn his check.

alliko · April 2010

Dear Richard,

My 2nd MMO I played and the one I played the longest was a F2P called Rappelz. I played it for two years and would never go back.

In that time I spent close to $2000 which is ridiculous. But I had extra cash at the time and was buying goodies for my guild and I and was suckered in by the limited time sales and discounts.

A lot of the items in the game were gambling items... meaning if you enchanted your weapon or tried to tame a pet that there was a large chance you would fail and break that very hard to find weapon you farmed for 2 months for. The cash shop items would protect your gear from breaking but not improve your success in enchant or tame... OR some would increase your success rate but not protect. So you get stuck in the mentality that just one more and it will work, you will get paid out, but in the end you just sink in more cash that makes wanting the success that much more frantic.

In this game I was verbally threatened and the guy who threatened me even went so far as to figure out where I worked (to this day I am not sure how - maybe a combo of my email and Facebook and IP?) and the GMs banned his account but not his IP and when I told them he was back it took my local police informing them of his criminal record to get them to IP ban him finally...which as we all know isn't 100%. Then I had my Angel pet stolen by a person I thought was a friend and there wasn't a point to get teh GMs involved as I knew it was my own fault to lend it...but that damn thing prolly cost me $500 in all the taming cards I bought. I even had my account banned once as someone reported me as having sold it. They shut it down without even investigating to see if the claims were true! It took me over 2 weeks to convince them to look at my IP and paypal and see that neither had changed. AND the ONLY reason they agreed to even look was that I was a long time member and had spent good money!! They even told me that they would change the perma ban to a 3 month one since I was a good customer...not cause they were wrong.

Needless to say my overall experience was horrible. I found that people were willing to rip you off since it was real money spent and they justified it as you having some so you could buy more. Like all MMOs I did make a lot of nice friends and some are still my friends to this day, but I always wonder if some others only liked me as I would hand out free Stamina Savers for Xmas to guildies or the CS buffs for raids. I do acknowledge that I have an issue with spending in F2P games, but some of us do get suckered into buying things on "sale/ limited time". I was also younger when I was playing and had a large completely disposable income. In these games money talks and there is a big difference between the haves and the have nots. This is not seen at the lower levels, but once you start getting up in rank so does the "cost" of F2P gaming.

So I banned myself from F2P MMOs. P2P is the model for me. Everyone there is fair and square and you play for what you get not pay. My money also goes further in them. Even having subs to 2+ games at the same time still doesn't equal what my F2P spending was. I really did not have more fun for my 2-5x the money spent per week in F2Ps then in P2Ps and in the end my whole experience left a terrible taste in my mouth completely ruining those types of games.

So when you write these articles bemoaning us terrible F2P Haters... please understand that many of us have tried them and have our reasons for not wanting to play them and trying to keep others with our limitations from over spending on them. I am glad that you have enjoyed them in passing, but these games by and large are not long term games without some serious long term investment in both time and money.

My MMO past is shameful and I would not wish anyone to repeat my experience .. then again I am one of those girls that will buy 3 pairs of shoes at a time. Whatever you do I hope you have fun doing and do not come to regret it as the cost should justify the enjoyment. If not there are other business models out there that maybe more to your style.

Sincerly,

- Ami, a recovering ex-F2P junkie.

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