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A mmorpg based around surviving rather than advancing.
Bladin
Member UncommonPosts: 1,089
The thought has always intrigued me, not in a way that people would want "hardcore open pvp permadeath" even though that may be a feature.
I'm talking about something similar to say the apocolypse or a zombie invasion. while a big part would still be combat, the actual purpose would be something completely different. Look at games like eve or darkfall, or even UO, the games purpose is all advancing, earn money here, earn skill points this way, etc etc. And sure the death penalties can be harsh, that's not the games purpose.
A good example would be say imagine the sims in dead rising infinite mode, you had to eat, find shelter scavenge for parts and weapons, form alliances depend on other players get betrayed etc. With surviving being the main aspect, with say penalties for dieing, such as a hard reset on your character.
I'm not going to outline a entire game here, i could but that's pointless, but I'm tired of seeing mmorpgs come out where it's always about advancing, or socializing, some other purpose or something you work for, even while advancing or socializing, and i think surviving would be great.
Tired of guilds who are nothing but chat mechanics.
Tired of friends who are people you meet once and at to your list if you ever get stuck on a dungeon or quest.
Tired of well just advancing.
A lot of people would call me a sandbox fan. I am but not in the way they want it, nor in the way it is now. To me games like oblivion etc aren't even sandboxes because it's not "do whatever whenever" it's not linear, but it's still a set amount of content to be done and when done it's done. Even the original SWG sure you got wars and the like, but there still was a limit to how far you could go doing what you wanted to do and once you reached a certain point it was just like wow, where your play generally devolved into earning money, and then pvping. Sure you can quote me going to cantina's and needing other professions. Sure. That's fine, but it's still the same routine.
Don't get me wrong it can be great fun, but it's not what i'm after.
A game where i had to worry about dieing everywhere i go, not just by players but by monsters, give them reasons to NOT KILL, and to kill. Rather than the reason to not kill being "going red". Where you aren't safe and you can't plan out game experience, where supplies are not infinite and can be harder to find if your unlucky. Where things you own and use are not infinite and are not easily obtainable. You got a gun? awesome, where are you going to get bullets? monsters don't carry them, you aren't going to find many in most buildings, does the gun help you live? sure, but maybe using it all time isn't your best option maybe you should play riskier because you want to avoid the bigger risks.
Comments
i hear what your saying and agree with you to some extent. While i'll never be on board with the open pvp or permadeath, i think that it would be great to have a game like this so stacked against the players that it almost forces some grouping action just for survival purposes, because your not concerned with getting that next level, your just trying to keep on exisiting.
I understand what you mean, it would be great and would work. In another thread I came up with a similar idea, just not with perma death, not imediatly.
Short version of my idea:
When one got killed or infected on became a zombie, when infected one could get a cure limited by a timer. When a zombie if one got destroyed (Not shot in head) other zombies could put you back togheter with human parts. When you die as a zombie you spawn back as another human.
The longer you survive the stronger your resists become.
It makes it so much more intense if you have to survive.
One could set one goals or more goas that are extremly difficult to complete (spanning weeks or months)
Sorry but I don't really agree.
A zombie apocalypse is about blowing zombies' head up with cool weapons, not "scavenging for food"..
Maybe i'm wrong though..
AW
Oh but you could scavenge for food.
I like the idea of a zombie apocalypse game where you try "not" to be hit and have to stay away or at leat blow them away before they touch you.
Tha'ts the problem with most games where there is combat. In most games people want to engage the dragon, people want to engage the trolls on the road. But if it were real life people would be running away from most of that.
So sure you could do a zombie apocalypse game where you are blowing them away but it's "very" important they don't touch you or that they do an extremem amount of damage if they do so runninng away is part of the game play.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
running would have to be more interesting. Parkour style, 3D.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I see what you're saying but it's just not a good MMO idea, the whole point of an MMO is progression, getting better.
I mean I can't imagine "Hey lets play this game where we run around scavenging and try to surive as long as possible until we die and loose everything"
It would get boring very quickly..
AW
I like the idea. constantly searching out people to survive with and watching them one by one turn into zombie chars who's whole goal is trying to defeat you and eat you.
Thumbs up
Build it and i will play and dont forget to add in my MP5 and some ammo to start and i will be good to go.
I don't think it will work.
No developer can develop fresh enough content fast enough. It will get boring soon if there is no advancing path. Advancement (getting that new spell, getting that new armor) is what keep player interested once they have done the content.
And you are not going to generate new zones, new zombies/monsters fast enough for them to NOT get bored.
It works for a 15 hr SP game (lots of survival horro game out there) but not for a MMORPG.
I know that this is slightly off topic, but I'd like to see this too. I'd love to see games replace:
"Get stabbed 'til you run out of health and die."
with:
"Dodge stabs 'til you run out of energy, get stabbed and die."
It's largely cosmetic but it just makes so much more sense.
Isn't this pretty much the same as playing as non-PvP in a FFA PvP game. The PvPers aer the 'zombies' that just keep coming after you even if you have done nothing to them and your only choice in the game is to keep surviving till you finally get forced out of the game?
'The Secret World' sounds like something you might enjoy. Still in beta phase, but it seems to follow your wishes very closely.
TwitchTV: iNeoki
Good idea i could imagen me and 20+ people in some town in the mmo hideing in a house hopen the infected dont find us, and just incase they do... Lock and Load...
Sounds awesome.
I equate it more along the lines of tag.
The object being that you don't want to be tagged.
I think in a zombie apocalypse game there comes a time where you have to run. and what one needs to do in order to escape could be quite fun.
I'll add this:
One of the most memorable and most fun times in Morrowind was when I was being chased by guards. I had to escape so I made it to the roof tops only to "just" duck into the area with the thieves guild.
Another time I was a Vampire and the sun was coming up and I was flying and was quickly scanning the ground for a cave... any cave or anything where I could get to in time before I burned up.
I loved those times and it made the experience more compelling and enjoyable.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Umm, I don't even know how to point out the flaw in that logic. Seems obvious.
Well, look at it this way,
if monsters were real most people would be runnign from them. Of course you would have people who would step up and combat them.
But in a game players will look at a mob and wonder "hmmm, could I take it" where in real life one would think "I might be able to defend myself but it might be better to avoid".
So to me games can sometimes feel a bit too unreal as everyone is running to find an event boss or everyone is running toward the point of danger.
it just seems ironic to me.
to add, it's like investing in "fear" as entertaiment.
If you go to a haunted house (erm, amusement ride) of any kind you don't expect to go in and punch out the ghosts and goblins. You go to be scared.
So the idea of playign off the "I must not be caught/I must get to safety" is an interesting game play concept as it falls along the lines of "these are monsters and they are out to get me" not "I'm bad ass and therefore I take on everything".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm not sure I could get behind a game fully devoted to this approach (although a developer with the right mix of creativity and funding could easily change my mind), but the "survival" is something that I wouldn't mind seeing more of in MMO's. Even some certain-death instances, where you're basically just trying to hold off as long as possible, as continued waves of mobs get larger and stranger, would have a certain appeal to it. It would come down to bragging rights, but it would still be nice to brag about something a little more tangible than just gear (i.e. We managed to survive 27 waves last night).
Or it's possible that something like that is already in place somewhere, I just haven't played it yet.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Champions Online has a PvE / PvP scenario called Zombie Apocalypse. It is a single instanced map, and I can hear you all cringing, but it's just coincidentally similar enough to the OP's post that I will quote the designer's description:
Cryptic_Lucid: "The Hero Games Zombie Apocalypse map is a player-versus-player scenario map. The heroes stand against an unending army of (NPC) zombies and one former hero, a player whose character has been "zombified." This is a purely cosmetic change--zombie heroes keep all of their super-powers. When a hero falls to the zombie hero or the NPC horde, they rise again as one of the undead. When the map begins, the lone zombie player must use hit-and-run tactics, trying to swoop in and defeat a hero who has been wounded by the NPCs; their only real advantage is that death is final for the heroes, but a zombie simply respawns to rejoin the fight. As more heroes become zombies, the balance between the teams shifts until the map reaches a tipping point and the heroes are outnumbered by their fallen comrades. The heroes are forced to break and run, which lets the zombie team hunt them as a group. The end usually comes quickly."
A ZA match in practice takes 5 to 30 minutes, haha. So it is all about how long you can survive against inevitable defeat, it has perma-death and PvP, but all within a toy scenario that is featherlight-weight compared to what the OP has in mind. But still.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
just to note i made the op in a hurry, and that i wasn't specifically talking about zombies or apocolypse but just as a general idea and it was the best way to describe it.
Basically i just want a different goal to a mmorpg besides just advancing and socializing. I mean how many times have we all done it by now?
*edit* and that champions mode sounds awesome may have to resub.
Much of what you describe sounds to be like Left 4 Dead.
Also, I think all MMOs need some kind of advancement. If everytime I logged into the game, my powers, my abilities, etc were the same, I think I'd lose interest. Maybe progress could be getting to Point B, then Point C, etc. Each "safety area" might allow you to upgrade in some fashion. At least then players would have a goal beyond "don't die for x minutes".
I would have to say also, the idea of a survival type MMO seems like an entertaining prospect to try. I think that Perma-death or some variation of it would be nice. A zombie type game would be a good choice. Taking to the idea of Permadeath you would have to call up the idea of looting. Since its a survival game, I would think ammunition, better-than-basic weapons, and other things needed would be harder to gain. Like take for example, if when you were killed or infected in a zombie game, your character is then turned into an npc zombie and your sent into some type of respawn. If the medium of ressurection would be cloning, all your items are gone and you just pop into your newly created body, no punishment for death is really needed since you've lost all of your items. The same goes for the newly created zombie npc though, it has all your items. So other players could kill "you" and gain all of your items, or if your fast enough you could kill "yourself" and regain your items. So all of the good items would be either kept in the zombies dead players create, in the game world for you to scavenge. or a form of crafting to create everything you need. To have cloning as a mode of ressurection if you simply wouldn't lose your character you would also need buildings and towns to hold these cloning centers. So it wouldn't be impossible to have the towns or "Safe zones" which a player could relax in. Though I would find it enjoyable if somehow a zombie broke in infected everyone in the city, thus creating a large town or area full of actual player's zombies creating an oasis of scavenging. You would need a town that could withstand forever so the whole game wouldn't be destroyed or player created content. Like if a person created their own town and periodically zombies could come and destroy it, more zombies in a town, the faster it decays until the town is destoryed leaving the area barren again.
Thats just an idea I created in 5 minutes, im sure the flaws are numerous. I am just saying, a survival game wouldn't need levels or advancement to stay interesting if the developers think it through carefully. Plus the idea of someone being mauled to death by a zombie and having all of the loot on the new infected just piques my fancy. You could put in mechanics like the corpse from PvP attracts zombies to the area, or deeper into "zombiefied" area you would find amazing loot (Since its untouched) but it would be almost impossible to escape from the area. Groups could go into an area with a couple people and only a few would come out alive. Walking into a house you've never seen before and being ambushed. Being outside a safe zone would mean almost certain death if you don't know how to adapt. If zombies occupy the lower part of the building your in do you jump out a window and risk injury or fight the zombies and risk infection.
Its just my take on the subject, I am all for a survival game!
That type of game would never work in MMO format because of it's nature:
The goal is to survive, so players will come up with systems to essentially ensure their survival (such as clustering into a few massive guilds, establishing recognized "safe zones" or finding tricks in the game mechanics to solve the problem. If your entire goal is to survive rather than advance, the best you can do is sit in a place that's likely to be safe and stay there. Hide-under-a-rock Online doesn't sound like the engaging experience you envision. Sure you could put in incentives for people to venture out of their safe zones, but really, you'd just be doing the same repetitive tasks to that end. And if it was open permadeath pvp, who cares because there is no advancement - if the player dies all you really gave the player was a new character with a "full stomach", ready to go hide again. That means players would not fear death, which defeats the whole purpose of the game.
In short, you can have open pvp and permadeath only if you have a system for advancement. It's all about what incentives you give the player.
"The Secret World" by Funcom. The real company that is "Powered By Our Fans."
i never said there was no advancement, just that it wouldn't be THE point of the game like say getting the best gear or leveling to the max. Rather perhaps a system similar to UO's skill system.
The thing about hiding under a rock is that in the case of say a zombie apocolypse(again easiest to relate to). There are plenty of reasons and ways to make the game dynamic or require player activity while still needing to move and camp.
For example a constant need for food, your character needs to eat, and say it degrades over time even while offline(but at a much slower rate, and caps at a low percentage say 10%) and you can plan out "meals" of food you own/have stored to eat while offline to keep a need to log in at a minimal.
How would you get food? finding non perishables, or by growing food through say seeds. where do you find food? peoples houses, supermarkets, canning factories. But each place would obviously be more/less dangerous. Houses would probably be safer to explore in smaller(solo) groups and therefore would be more explored, and perhaps a player could "Tag" a house/building after leaving and say when the last time they went into it to loot it. That way if it was recently looted you wouldn't want to go in, but some may not tag, or maybe even possible to remove a tag and then wait to ambush.
But say the supermarket would have a lot more risk, a higher concentration of zombies, and while possible to go in alone, it'd be really dangerous and you could get cornered easily or run out of ammo/weapons. So you would have to go in with others, but would you want to go in with anyone? What if theres not much resources left inside, would they want to split it evenly, would they be helpful or would they run. A big thing imho would be a lack of name/icon/identifiers. So even when seeing a person you could not tell who they are, untill they introduced themselves, have cellphones/radio's that require charging and only work within ranges and not in certain places, have all sound(chat) coming from and near and to the player cause a sorta "attention meter" to zombies in radius.
If you've been given a name by someone(or possibly a nickname they gave you or you assigned to that person upon sight) then the further away you got the blurrier/jumbled the name got.
Have "safe zones" only be safe with player intervention, say instanced tutorial of a safe zone being destroyed and then escaping into the forest where theres a small camp(not sustainable for long term play) and then go from there. Have player run towns where they could deny/allow access and actually allow players to sneak/break in and steal things, so perhaps you want to build fences or get a generator, or get weapons to defend, or find a good hiding spot, or even take over a building rather than build one. The further you got from areas the safer it was but the harder it became to transport objects. Perhaps giving all objects a realistic mass, no carrying 500 weapons and bullets, and then a mass of food, maybe pushing a cart, or driving a car, or hauling a truck or maybe even having a horse pull something, to get larger objects, materials, supplies back. And if you wanted to have say a "bandit camp" then getting too far from town would make it harder for allegiances or security to defend you.
Just like how bandits can attack(pks) then say anti pks(security, police etc) could actually charge people for protection and set up patrol routes or guard duties, in exchange for say food or gas, or whatnot.
Theres plenty of other ways to do it and plenty of other things it would include, but that's just a basic "idea" that could make it work well.
The thought of just "cluster and survive" wouldnt really get you anywhere since the more people you have the more food youd need.
Sounds kinda like the comic series The Walking Dead. I think it could be an awesome idea for a game.
Maybe could have things like cars or RVs for traveling if going a long distance from your "safe zone" which could be a fenced in town or neighborhood or maybe even a prison due to the fences and walls(like in the comic). If worried about people just staying in safe zones maybe make people deal with zombies outside the safe zones and if they dont they will build up to the point that it is almost impossible to leave town to resupply or have them knock down the protecting walls or fences and invade the town.