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Looting: Need before Greed?
Disdena
Member UncommonPosts: 1,093
So far as I am aware, the "Need before Greed" loot distribution system was not a real big thing up until WoW came along and hardcoded it into the client. I don't recall passing up valuable equipment in EQ because someone else in the group could equip it, and I don't think I ever heard someone ask for NBG in FFXI either. Admittedly, grinding on beetles and bats in a pug never really resulted in random drops worth a damn, so it wasn't really needed either. More than anything, what I remember about FFXI looting were the people who would yell at party members (usually JP) for manually rolling on items rather than allowing them to automatically fall out of the treasure window — the roll spam times six PT members for each drop could get rather annoying.
During the time that I was into Aion, I found that the NBG mentality was firmly entrenched. The loot system for valuable items was the same as XI — you either roll on the item or pass — but you were some kind of monster if you suggested that everyone should have free reign to roll on any drop. Certainly the NBG system has its benefits, but I find that there are plenty of flaws with it too, regardless of whether or not the game client strictly enforces NBG rules. I was a little miffed that it has made its way up to and beyond "default loot etiquette" status, all the way up to "the only acceptable loot etiquette".
Final Fantasy XIV has the potential to throw a great big monkey wrench into the works. Like FFXI, there is a much-reduced need to create alts; dabbling in another class/job on the same character is the way to go. Classic NBG etiquette dictates that wanting an item in order to use it on an alt does not constitute "need". But your party's Conjurer could very legitimately roll on a necklace of +STR if he is also an occasional Marauder... he might even need to switch jobs and start using it before you reach the next Aetheryte crystal! Should the party's Marauder (who has not levelled any other jobs) have priority over him? Do you only get to roll on a Platinum Ingot if Blacksmith is your main job, or can anyone with any Blacksmith ranks grab them... or someone with none at all? Should someone who has uselessly diversified themselves equally into all possible jobs get to need on every BoE that they see like a damn Hunter?
Errr, instead let me boil it down to 2 questions. Based on what you know of the game so far, what are your thoughts about how you would like party members to divvy up loot in FFXIV? And what are your hopes/fears regarding the loot mechanics that S-E might build right into the client?
(I'm only talking about pickup groups here. Obviously it makes a lot of sense for static groups or linkshell groups to use whatever distribution system they want.)
Comments
A new version of the etiquette will eventually arise, even if there's some scuffles and hard feelings at first. Me, assuming I play this game, I hope to simply post a "All roll for all loot?" question before I undertake a group task, and getting some affirmative replies in return. Maybe a "ARFAL?" or something similarly short for LFG posts, just so there's no preconceptions otherwise. End of problem, hopefully. Or at the very least, ammunition to throw in the face of whoever throws a temper-tantrum later on. Regardless, it's something that should be agreed-on beforehand, not when some uber-loot finally drops and the healer wins the legendary battleaxe.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
I would prefer a hidden reward system so that nobody knows what anybody won.
You must like ninjas!
i trust se enough to have faith. in a pickup exp group, i doubt there is something that would drop in a pickup group, that would make everyone want to roll. there will probably be no in game mechanics for NBG. in a game like ffxiv it wont be needed. se doesnt need loot mechanics really, they did it right the first time in ffxi. the fact that there are no "world drops", stoped the idea for NBG. even if your in a party and an HQ crab shell droped, wich was worth some money, people still didnt roll. ocassionally you would get the person that would say " hey im an alchemist, do u guys mind if i keep all the bat wings that drop?". once thats stated no one would really mind to much if he did. if you decided to do a pickup group to kill some nm, then u should be fully prepared to go against everyone. sure there might be that lvl 73 drk sword that drops, and your lvl 70 and this other guy is only lvl 60. you might feel that you deserve it more than he does, but since he also helped kill, then u dont have more sayso over him now do you?
point being ffxi loot system worked perfectly in my eyes. i have no worries about ffxiv.
No, NBG was an established convention even in 'classic' EQ, way before WoW, though it wasnt hardcoded.
At least on my server.
NBG has been considered standard group etiquette in mmo's for a very long time, just not built into the ui/coded. It's pretty much always been considered rude to roll on gear not meant for your character or another class that your character isn't playing when the item dropped.
Even with the ability to switch classes on the fly, I would kick somebody for taking an item that is not intended for their current class. If you go into the fight as a healer, but you also play as a fighter sometimes, that does not entitle you to roll on fighter gear. If you want fighter gear, then join the group as a fighter, not as a healer. End of story. Don't rob somebody of main class gear cuz you might need it later. Shame on you.
What has gaming come to that this question is even asked?
A new generation of greedier/holier than though gamers are ruining the genre. If you don't want to share go play a solo game. Otherwise don't whine about not being able to roll on gear for a class you're not playing at that particular time.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
while that may be true, this rule didnt apply to ffxi. generally speaking, if a nm droped something you wanted, you either went to kill it solo, or you asked some friends to help you kill it. if you were in a guild (linkshell) you generally were asked what job was your main and then a sub. for e.x
main job: monk: second job: blue mage
if monk armor droped during whatever event, you would be entitled to it along with whoever else has mnk as thier main job. if bluemage armor droped, you would be allowed to roll if no other blue mage as main job wants it. in the even that armor drops that people already have or dont want, then you would be allowed to roll on it regardless of what your main or second job is.
so if your in an exp group, there i sno need to worry about NGB, because there were no world drops. if your killing crabs, there's no way in hell its going to drop a sword. thats something reserved to nm's only. in the event they did add world drops to ffxiv, i would be slightly turned off by this.
free for all is the way to go.
Yep... the sense of entitlement some shamelessly display is pretty sad, isn't it? I don't know where it came from either... I wasn't raised with that "I want something, therefor I'm entitled to it" mentality, so I just can't relate.
I've been in parties with people who seemed to think simply by virtue of them being in the party meant that anything they said was law - and they weren't even the party leader. Many times it backfired on them when they'd give ultimatums that they either got their way or they were leaving the group. In most cases, the leader would respond with an "Oh really? Here, let me help you out the door" reply and kick them from group.... to which the person would start yelling in /shout about how we sucked and he was going to camp right on top of us and take all our mobs, etc. etc. Then they'd go away and not come back. In one particularly humorous case, the guy was carrying on in shout, for all to hear. 10 minutes later he starts shouting his "LFP" message.. To which people replied with variations on "After the way you were carrying on earlier? lolno".
I was in a group back when I was playing WoW. We were in a pug doing quests and the looting was on "by turn". This one person, every time someone got something he wanted, would say "Give me that"... and then would continue to say that 'til he was told to shut up, that it was loot by turn and whatever someone got is what they got. 10 minutes later... would happen again. Well on one of my turns, I happened to get a blue item. Well.. the guy went bonkers. "Give me that" "GIVE IT TO ME" "I NEED IT! NOW!" "GIVE ME THAT OR I'M LEAVING THE PARTY!" When he was told to shut it, he said "NO! THAT SHOULD BE MINE! GIVE IT TO ME NOW! I WANT IT!!". He was finally kicked. It didn't stop him. He followed me around using local chat and pm's demanding I give him the drop. I finally ignored him then reported him for being obnoxious. He eventually disappeared... I'm assuming a GM saw what he was doing since he followed us around, apparently carrying on like the moron he was and snagged his whiney, entitled ass.
You see it in FFXI in campaign battle, which I posted about in the FFXI threads... people seem to think that because they chose to pull a single mob off into some corner that it makes it "theirs" and "you can't touch it". Of course we can... Campaign is a free for all, but they don't see it that way.
But yeah.. it is sad, and obnoxious, to see the spoiled brat-like behavior on display by many people in MMOs. Makes me think these people were raised by parents who gave them whatever they wanted just to shut them up.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Keep it on topic or start a thread for your rant ?
ON TOPIC:
I don't think NBG is such a big issue when items aren't bind on picked up or something like this. If you see something you want and someone else got it, ask to trade. Also, FFXI gave you the possibility to play every classes in the game, so any item that would drop could be useful for the person who got it hehe
I don't have time for a long post, but wanted to quickly point out what I think it wrong with this statement. How can I "rob" someone of what is already equally mine to begin with? It's a team effort: the six of us killed the mob and the six of us were awarded a single item for it. One-sixth of it is mine. As the item can't be split up equally, we get an equal shot at having it.
Would you go in halves on a raffle ticket if the other guy said "I need tickets to Disneyland more than you do, so let me have them if we win"? Would you buy stock in a company if another shareholder could say "I need to improve my portfolio more than you do, so hand over all your shares"? Team participation = team reward. Lacking a way to ensure that everyone receives the same reward, the next best thing is giving everyone the same chance at the reward.
i understand the general statement of need before greed, and i can agree with alot of you about it, but people seem to be forgetting that were not talking about all games, we are simply talking about ffxiv, and probably its predasessor ffxi. if im not mistaken the op is talking about ffxiv specifallcly. unless you can give some examples, of something that happened in ffxi, which is probably gonna be the same in ffxiv.
in all my years of playing ffxi (since release), i never heard of a single instance where need before greed came up in exp groups. so examples please
The 'it's for my other toon who can use it..." is pure Bulls**t. That's like going to someone's dinner party and stuffing rolls and food in your pockets while quipping "It's for my cousin...".
Those who are involved in the quest and doing the job have precedence over your other toon who isn't even in the party.
I am a big Need before Greed supporter, and always will be. If youhave one hunter in the group and a hunter type weapon drops. He gets it...if he wants it. It's that plain and simple IMO.
It's common sense, but if anybody can be a hunter in your party, then anybody can equip it.
You give the ranged drop item to the best ranged player. Yeah, anyone can use a bow, but the hunter/ranger should get priority over the warrior.
One, because he would have more use for it.
And two, because he has a limited use of weapons unlike a warrior who is a jack of all trade with weapons.
So that would be need for the Ranged fighter, and greed for the warrior.
But that is a limited case.
You can use any line of defense or reasoning to say why you should need it.
But in the end Common Sense decesions fall to the group leader. And that's when you hope he/she actually has some.
no this aint wow. FFXI system was fine and people lie about their jobs so they can get epic mats for selling so it dont work. and honestly the JP players were hardcore i liked playing with them more because if you rolled on something you dont need you got kicked thats how it should be.
While I agree with you, it won't work that way in XIV. Everyone can change their class outside of active mode, and it's not your "other toon" that has Archer leveled, it's your main character that can level many classes at once. He might've been asked to come Gladiator to the encounter because they were needed at time. In that case it wouldn't be fair to let the hunter of the group get the group just because he got lucky and didn't have to come as some other class.
And there is quite a large gray zone as to which Archer would be "the best ranged player". I don't think you can make 100% wrong or right decisions, which inevitably lead to wrong people getting their drop.
Don't get me wrong, i agree with you and in the case i would be playing a mage in a group in ffxi or xiv and a bow or axe would drop, i would definitly let the right person get it. Problem is, not everyone is like this, and if a very rare item drops some players might get greedy. I see 2 situations mainly, one where you party with people you know well and where this kind of thing would never happen and the other one where you're "pugging" and might end up with greedy people. In the second case, i think going "need" for everything is just the right way since you never know if somebody could ninja items and stuff like that. It would also prevent any flaming inside the party and keep it going. Since anybody can equip anything, nothing would be lost anyway. Just my opinion hehe
It's really not hard to be fair to everyone during loot distribution. In my opinion in FFXIV the main discipline should always get priority.
Of course, there will always be "those" people, but they can usually be avoided.
No one really knows how loot drops are going to work in FFXIV but I came up with an example to my approach to the Discipline system FFXIV will be using.
Lets say a really great staff drops.
Example 1:
There's someone who's currently playing a Conjurer in the group. They could use the staff. They roll need.
There's also an Archer in the group who has a higher level Conjurer than the person currently playing the Conjurer in the group, they could also use the staff. They roll greed since they are not currently playing that discipline.
Everyone else rolls greed as well. (No one else has a Conjurer that could use the staff.)
(Note: Example 1 would be what I would use in all PUG situations, below are some other examples that I plan on using with my Linkshell / friends groups)
Example 2:
The Conjurer already has a better staff. They roll greed.
The Archer can now roll need since they also have a Conjurer that can use the staff.
Everyone else rolls greed because they can't use it.
Example 3:
The Conjurer already has a better staff. They roll greed.
The Archer does not need the staff either. They roll greed.
Everyone else rolls greed as well.
I think these 3 examples pretty much cover every situation that can come up in a group and I think it's the fairest system.
I absolutely hate when someone rolls need on something that they can not use right away or at all, UNLESS no one else needs it.
Edit: I realize that switching Disciplines in FFXIV will be a lot easier than switching jobs in FFXI was, but my original opinion still stands. If the person can't use it RIGHT THEN and someone else can, the person who can use it should get it.
Anything else is just being greedy.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
the thing is you can tell who the people who havent played ffxi because you would know the grinding mobs only dropped mats and crap and the NMs and other mobs which were harder than the grinding mobs where farmed by solo'ers looking for cash. an example would be LL no1 farmed LL with an xp group it was done solo by players 7 levelers higher than the mob or max level players. it was farmed because it dropped boots which was very good grinding boots now you only needed 2 pairs for your account 1 for early xp groups and upgraded version which consumed the LL boots to make the upgraded version and the rest most people sold for alot of cash and it was a very basic mob. now it took anywhere between 1-7 hours to respawn which is why it wasnt a grinding mob and this was exactly the same thing with every other weapon/armour/accessory enemy so if they run with the same system the only thing you have to worry about is mats.
This is why if I play FFIV I will be avoiding pugs to avoid the "I need that! (in case I decide to level class x, 6 months from now)"
I simply don't trust the average pug to act fairly if something good drops, there is nearly always at least one ninja in a party usually more. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd rather stick with people I trust.
It's a shame that people feel they can act like asses when it comes to group ettiquette. Hopefully, if early on precedent is set for such actions having true consequences (who cares if you have a dozen max level jobs, if noone is willing to play with you)
In a game where it's not so simple to reroll an alt and be max level in 2 weeks perhaps people will treat their in game reputation a little more seriously.
Here's hoping.
I'd almost take this as a personal insult... After leading several different endgame linkshells and seeing how a lot others work, I can say that there's no way in hell that you could be fair to everyone during loot distribution. At least not in a non-PUG situation.
What if the Archer has been in the LS a year longer than the Conjurer? What if the drop rate is about 1% for the item meaning you wouldn't see it again for maybe 3, even 6 months? What if the Conjurer has already gotten 4 drops during his time in the LS and Archer has in the same timeframe only obtained one or no drops? What if the Archer is the leader of the LS?
And this is important: What if the Archer is only Archer because the leader asked him to come as an Archer and not Conjurer even though he wanted to? What if the situation is vice-versa for the Conjurer, but he would also like to get the drop?
I can make more examples on the fly... and you can make "solutions" on the fly... and soon we'll have a -50 DEEKAYPEE system with 10 pages of rules to read.
This has been a major concern of mine since the chatter over FFXIV started.I see this on very forum in every guild forum.This if following FFXI's pattern will not be a concern for a very long time,yet people are more worried about end game ideas before they even play the actual game.
.Personally i prefer to just let the auto loot do it all,this means players are there for the FUN as EVERYONE claims and not just turning the game into EQ/WOW end game looting drama.
The facts are already cut and dry,ALL players will NEED EVERY single drop,we have access to ALL class,this is not WOW or EQ,i think TOO many seem to forget this?So either have a straight up pecking order or just let auto loot do it's thing.If an item is totally useless because a player already has it and perhaps they have a rare/ex system in place,then the obvious thing would be for that player to pass,no elaborate system needed,just common sense.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I never played WoW for any extended period of time but I've played LOTRO for 4 years now and I can honestly say I've only come across a handful of people who rolled on things they shouldn't have in that game. Also, that behaviour was quickly corrected either by talkilng to the offender or by kicking them from the group.
The poster above is right though. If it's going to be a similar loot system to FFXI, this entire discussion is pointless :P
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I didn't quite notice this problem during my time in FFXI. Sure, I saw some threads where people ninja'd some loot they weren't supposed to get, but that's the beauty of the "one character" system: Now everyone knows that you're a douche.
Let's not forget the fact that the game was very group dependant, so that alone stopped people from doing whatever they wanted. They can't get away with it as easily as just rolling another toon or changing servers.
The etiquette was really top notch because of that. Can't say the same about player skill, though.
EDIT: And Wizardry speaking nonsense as usual...