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About buying/selling in-game items for money
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Member Posts: 66
Ok, I always see both the usual complaints about selling in-game items for real money, (and about companies like IGE that profit from it) as well as the usual 'shut up and take it' by the ebayers themselves.
Now I'm curious how players are really distributed on this subject. Myself, I'm a bit militant; I think cheaters should be sent packing. But where do you stand?
Comments
I think Ige shouldn't be profitting from a virtual space but their hostile take over with Some Vanguard Fansites ticked me off. what is really sad when players buy stuff from IGE.
I heard about this type of thing going on. My opinion: If people want to waste their money on things like in-game items or currency, let them. I wouldn't be dumb enough to do so, and would rather waste my money on products I can actually hold physically (PC hardware, clothes, etc) or in legit services (EQ2 subscription, cable modem service, digital cable TV, etc). I think IGE was brilliant in making a business out of it. Are players cheating by buying stuff from IGE? Of course, but who wants to toil away for 50+ levels to obtain the same thing they can purchase for $9.95? *sarcasm*. Does this make games more "unfair"? Sure, for players who don't take advantage of this. You can look at it in two ways: morally or economically. I believe the game companies themselves (SoE, Blizzard, etc) are to blame, because (as far as I know) they have not taken measures to eliminate this from happening. You cannot place the entire blame on IGE, they simply saw business potential and took full advantage of it. I would have too. You can also place the blame on the players in general because many probably support IGE by purchasing in-game currency and items, otherwise they'd be out of business.
If you want to eliminate this "exploit", contact the game company and tell them about it. Otherwise, there is not much else you can do except to ignore it and continue to play your game the way you want to.
Personally, I will pretend IGE and the like don't exist and continue to enjoy playing EQ2 as normal. I think of it this way: players who take advantage of companies like IGE are really cheating themselves out of enjoying one of the big features of many MMORPGs out there: character development.
But in the words of Dennis Miller, "but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
I don't have a problem buying/selling in-game items per se.
But i don't think IGE employees should be allowed to have in-game charcters to farm with.
I personally wish people would take a more proactive approach to this, burying your head in the sand wont save you.
You can say that this doesn't affect you but it surely affects any person who plays a game in which this activity goes on. At first it is not noticeable, which gives credit to those that say "live and let live," if someone wants to do it let them, doesn't bother me..
I would ask that you look at some older games, as the effects are much more obvious. Everquest. When you got the bazaar many things are horribly inflated beyond any real game value, this is because of buying in-game currency. What would cost your characters life savings and days maybe months of grinding, now only costs a few dollars on a site like IGE or mysupersales. Those that wish to play in full cooperation with how the game was intended to be played (this includes those that say "live and let live"); everyone begins to suffer from horrible inflation as the value of the currency goes down (ironically against the dollar, or whatever currency you can use:P), ask an economist.
This also effects the community. I am far less willing to give out items in help of my fellow gamer if I had to send cash on it. A completely different feel then money I made in game, in keeping with the game.
It becomes more capitalist and geared toward personal greed, because remember for every ounce of in-game currency you buy theres a guy out there who is very concerned with generating that money for you to buy. I will not pretend I know exactly how people generate the funds they sell, but I would make the assumption it comes from lots of camping an area or selling items at a highly over valued rate.... Both which detract from a community.
If you insist on playing a game where you expect to use your own money there are a few titles out there that actually allow this, I suggest you try them.
Buying and selling in-game currency affects us all.
As long as it dont affect me negatively, I cant care less.
However, when peoples sell for RL $, the game will likely make the items much more of a pain to earn(not a challenge, a pain), so only peoples making $ will do it and not peoples making fun, in which case, I would be against the very idea itself.
So as long as I dont sell or buy any nor see the need to, I cant care less if peoples sell or buy some items. If I NEED to buy some items(and maybe sells some others), then I am against, I need to be able to do what I enjoy, which is earning my stuff in game. I will play 300 hours a month, I will focus hard to reach what I want, but I will not do something I find tedious or boring, I will not dual box and I will not give or receive powerleveling myself. If I cant reach the top because of RL selling, I am against it. If it dont really affect me, cant care less if some folks want to reach the top a lazy way, I will earn mine and I wont sell it anyway.
As long as the devs build a nice and FUN game, I cant care less, if the devs build the game around peoples selling for RL $, then the game is no more FUN and I wont be playing it. I dont mind if someone is on the TOP with me because they spend $500 or $5 or nothing on their toon, I am a competitive person, but not a jealous person. They spend RL money to change the uberness from Jacktheuberfarmer to them, *shrug*, to bad for them and good for Jack. But me, my tiny little selfish me, can I still make FUN and reach the top on my own, at a pace where Jack wont be able to put 2 persons on top with him while I do so myself? If so, that is acceptable.
IMO, the best solution would be to keep a record file with each toon that register what they have already earned, and make it impossible to get the same loot twice ever. Jack would be able to sell the best gear once, then very decent a second time, but a third? Doubt it, he need some stats to earn the new stuff at next expension. Jacktheuberfarmer himself would benefit from this, since it will put a rarity factor and keep competitiveness in the game. That mean you need to take a CoH loot resolve system approach, which should always have been the case anyway, auto-random unegociable, yet, someone can earn any loot only once, not twice, so your turn will come at a decent pace anyway, all in all, competitiveness would prosper with such a measure! This record file could be used also for security reason or for ingame reasons(some quests availables only based on your record file accomplishment).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What IGE is doing is scary in new ways beyond the old ebay problem. By taking over fan sites, and forming relationships with game companies and services (even MMORPG itself, who is willing to profit from IGE advertising) they're attempting to gain a new level of control over the industry itself. If noone organizes well enough to get in their way, at some point the opportunity won't be there anymore. May even eventually be unable to post polls to ask people what they think about the secondary market.
It was interesting to see how many do have fairly strong feelings about farmers/ebayers.
I think it's more interesting the people that *still* bury their heads in the sand about it, as it slowly rots every poular MMORPG to the core.
Remember when the entire record industry was threatened by censoring on that panel that al gore was on years ago?
One whole guy managed to come to its defence. I feel like this is the same... people have no sense of self preservation when it comes to this threat.
Honestly, from a business perspective, what IGE did was take virtual property and make it a viable source of income. And they are very very successful at it. Heck, IGE bought OGaming.com, and I'm looking at an ad at the top banner of here right now.
Is it fair to other players that don't utilize the company? No, but the people that do have the extra money to spend on virtual property, and can enjoy it. Most of them had to work for that money (or their parents did), so instead of working in-game for it, they took an alternate route. It's not fair that people with more money can have more fun with the game, but that goes for all of life. Rich people have more fun in general because they can afford the extraordinary things. If everyone could afford these things, it wouldn't be extraordinary and no one would be rich (or everyone would be rich).
If I knew that this business was gonna get this huge, I might have tried something like IGE.
--Ha, Pwned--
Pvp = godliness
Playing: WoW
Waiting on: Gods and Heroes
well when it comes to mass marketing I am against it 100%...
I don't think there should be companies making deals with companies, or setting up macro's in games, etc...
What I DO STRONGLY AGREE WITH is e-bay sellers who are genuinely honest about their ways to achieve the things they do sell.
I have handicap friends (car accident) who both play MMORPG's for a LIVING. Meaning, they'd rather play an mmo then do anything else because it's what they enjoy... and they love doing it. However, when e-baying is outlawed it screws them over... they live off of 800-900 bucks made per month from e-baying.
I don't see anything done wrong with this, since they DO play the game just excessively a lot but there's nothing wrong with getting money for your time and it doesn't hurt the company or the game any when someone plays the game genuinely and then sells what they got on e-bay.
I personally just got a message from WoW that says my account is permanently banned for posting on e-bay no exceptions... normally I put that disclaimer "paying for my time" crap but they still did it anyways. I don't see this as fair, I payed them monthly fee's, and I wanted to pass my account on to someone else (which I genuinely got up to lvl 42).
The only problem is those damn macroers who ruin it for us casual gamers who just want to get our time back through the form of money.
I appreciate what you are saying, but the cripple card doesn't really fly for me either. I am a disabled gamer myself, I have cerebral palsy in a chair and all that... Anyone with the skill to succeed at an MMORPG so much to the point that they can make that much on ebay has enough skill to work.
It does disrupt the community I made a post earlier in this thread and I feel it outlines pretty well how it hurts the game, I'm not going to get repetitive... What you are suggesting is that I take something successful and profit from it. I like MMORPG.com, so now I'm gonna make T-shirts and sell them on ebay for money... You're still taking someone elses intellectual property and pimping it out for your own profit... you are stealing.
I don't buy the robin hood story, theres no good thief.
I don't follow your argument about mass marketing being bad but fellow handicapped folk making money from it is ok? Does it matter?
If my fellow disabled folk wanted to legitimately make some cash in games there are games that allow this (second life, project entropia). They obviously got the skillz to pay da billz:P
I don't know if your story is meant to pull on some emotional heartstring or if you are honestly trying to make a decent point, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
You cannot stop people from trading their available time for someone else's available money.
Just the laws of human nature, try as you might to stop it.
You also can't keep people from committing murder, does that mean we should stop putting people in jail for it?
I find it appalling this very site allows IGE to advertise. This is a site that raises awareness for MMORPGS, it is a champion for them.
I may be wrong as I cannot find a list of forum rules anywhere but if i began posting cheats, hacks, bots... or straight out offered to sell an account or in-game currency I'd probably be violating some rule or get my thread locked.
But it is ok to advertise for a site that is essentially an item/money/character cheat?
How hypocritical, I hope some MMORPG staff reads this and I hope you feel ashamed.
This is the equivalent of putting a cigarette ad on a cancer awareness site.
That's a preposterous analogy. Comparing the resale of virtual items to murder condemns your entire line of reasoning.
It's a bit strong, but it's a fair analogy.
You were reasoning that ebaying is ok simply because it cannot be stopped. That's absurd reasoning, as a murder analogy shows. Ebaying is NOT ok simply because it cannot be stopped, any more than any other undesirable activity would be.
Maybe it'll never be stopped completely, but if enough serious competitive players begin to take a zero-tolerance stand it'll certainly put a dent in it.
Don't support ebayers in any way. Don't group with them, don't associate with them. Make sure you call them down for the parasites that they are, and do what you can to help your MMO provider show them the door.
No no, you all have it terribly wrong. The absurd thing is that these posts are made and fought through every single day lol.
To all of you that think IGE is sooooo wrong:
Why do you keep giving them millions of dollars worth of free advertising by beating such a dead horse constantly?
Do you not realize that is exactly what you are doing?
Heck, I'd be amazed to find out for certain that many of these anti-IGE posts are not started by them under alter egos lol.
__________________________
Malianea
I respect that you think the issue has been done to death, I'm however new to posting and only previousy been a casual reader its NEW to me:P
Also I've noticed the majority don't seem to care if they feel it doesnt affect them, my points have always centered around that it DOES affect any MMORPG player.
Perhaps more will get off the fence and go one way or another with it.
A secondary concern is whether or not this site has any ethical responsibilty in any of this... Is there any conflict of interest if news comes to pass that a game I don't know "infiltrates IGE and massively bans participants" (this is a fictional example) When a great number of them were probibly those who clicked the ad on this site, as it is so popular.
Cheating is (I would hope) frowned upon here, maybe I'm too idealistic.
Murder is universally wrong and reviled by all civilized cultures in the world.
Reselling virtual items is not only a tiny cottage industry, with revenues that are grossly dwarfed by the sale of bubblegum, it is entirely unheard of in the vast majority of society.
To make the comparison between the two is to make yourself look absurd.
Eeeeh buying in-game items for real cash is always a bad idea.
I stay away from games like that.
I hope that I don't seem rude, but it appears that many of you require a literary lesson.
There is a difference between these two terms: COMPARISON and ANALOGY.
A comparison is saying "murder is the same as selling in-game items," which appears to be the argument presented... which if course is wrong, murder is not like selling in-game items at all.
An analogy is a little more complex (apparently).
To say, we can't stop the selling of in-game currency so we shouldn't try is LIKE (a key word in an analogy) saying people always commit murder so we shouldn't put them in jail because it wont stop them from doing it. In other words, It's pointless to punish someone if it wont stop them from doing the action you punish them for. It is not to saying they are the same thing, but that they illustrate the same point.
The reason for ANALOGIES is to highlight a flaw in thinking or to explain something in a simpler way. I was going for door number two in that you (should) clearly agree that just because jail has not stopped murder from being committed... Doesn't mean we stop punishing them.
Nor should the punishment and discouragement of selling/buying in-game items stop just because it wont completely erase the activity.
Please, if you insist on arguing semantics... understand the semantics you wish to debate.
Also, in saying that this is a "cottage industry" (meaning small and insignificant) I present an excerpt from a letter sent from IGE to a fansite... source: http://plaguelands.com/index.php?p=9
"Hello there, -
I am interested in purchasing your site for a LARGE sum of money. IGE has put aside four million dollars this year to purchase websites to build up our content network."
at the bottom of this letter this contact information was given:
Best Regards,
Jonathan O. Yantis
Chief Strategic Officer
IGE
Carnegie Hall Tower
25th Floor
152 W. 57th St.
New York, NY 10019
Phone: (646) 202-0770
email: yantis@ige.com
ICQ: 20292915
AIM: jonyantis
(if you doubt the source I obtained this from since it is a blog... feel free to verify the contact info)
Now i should point out the 4 million mentioned was an ADVERTISING budget set for the year allegedly and the site in question was for a game not even released yet: Vanguard
I hardly think this falls under a cottage industry in economical power.
Selling in-game items was not equated to murder.
The argument that selling in-game items is ok because it's impossible to stop was ridiculed by an analogy to murder. (for the semantic nitpick, the argument that selling in-game items is ok because it cannot be stopped is LIKE the argument that murder is ok because it cannot be stopped) Obviously farming cannot be compared to murder, but it's that inequity that illustrates the absurdity of the argument that something is ok just because it keeps happening, since obviously we're not about to make it legal to kill people simply because they keep doing it.
But I'm explaining semantics and interpretation to someone who thinks that cheating is ok. I think you need a few more fundamental life lessons before you get to grammar.
I do not see the resale of virtual items as cheating.
Get off your high horse.
There is no question in my mind that virtual item resale is a minor economic force, and hence a cottage industry. A four million-dollar budget, as a benchmark for an industry, is insignificant and petty...that amount of revenue is made by EverQuest alone in a single month. The industry of gaming generates upwards of 10 billion dollars per year in revenue. Start talking in those terms if you wish to make the argument that virtual item resale is anything but a tiny, cottage industry.
As for your "lesson" in semantics...you're wasting your time. Regardless of whether it is a comparison or an analogy it is a specious and manipulative argument to make that there is any relationship between murder and virtual item resale. The longer you rationalize the point the longer you dwell in folly.
Peoples go to ultimate extremes.
Is selling virtual stuff for RL $ good? No, it is bad. However, it is not THAT bad.
The simplest solution, like I already suggest, would be to limit everytoon to earn each loot only once, never twice the same loot, if you sell it, you will never have it again, if you buy it, you cant earn it either. Even the ebayers could be happy with that, since they can sell what they would usually have used and ask huge money, and this should limit it to keep it like limonade sells on the corner store who dont pay taxes for the government. Simplest and cheapest solutions, are usually the best solutions...and more work for the devs! I know the devs like to work! It gave them more fellow devs and more arguments to gain huge salaries, to work with the devs!
And you can re-use this devs work for ingame security and gameplay, with opening some quest under this or that on the loot received chart.
PS: Every trade somewhat improve the rarity factor of an item by removing a potential entry of the say item on the market, which make the MMORPG economy rise.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
"I do not see the resale of virtual items as cheating."
When you buy or sell in-game items for real money in WoW, EQ2, or most other MMOs, you are breaking their terms of service; the rules of their game. The rules that all of us must agree to before we can begin playing it.
Violating the accepted rules of a game is cheating. That's not an opinion, it's the definition.
As far as understanding what an analogy is, and the absurd word games you're flinging about to justify the opinion that an action is ok simply because people keep doing it, you're correct that further explanation is a waste of time. I'll leave the interpretation to the readers.