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Where is the innovation?
Silvermachin
Member UncommonPosts: 13
I play computer games now for more than 20 years. When i played my first mmo, i was sure, onlinegaming is the best thing, that could ever happened to people like me, which loves it to play games.
But instead making games better and better, developers makes them more and more boring. I have looked not only once into the list of games in this forum. But no matter which game u look at, its the same old crap over and over. Doing meaningless quests, farming gold or items which may be useless at the next addon. Playing a warrior, a healer, a mage. leveling ur first char, ur second ur third, learn all prfessions, so u can make all crap by yourself. Killing the same players 10 times 100 times 1000 times. And no matter what game u choose, after 3 month u have seen 90% of the game and there is nothing to explore left.
So my question is, where is the innovation? Why do peaple make new games, but dont go new ways? Every new game is a 98% copy of games which already exists. I dont have to play betas anymore, a simply look into the features list of every new game is enough to see, its a cheap remake of existing games again.
I think, the first couraged company which creates a real new concept of online gaming will have much more players than blizzard ever had.
How about creating a own section in this forum for player ideas for games? Let players describe how a world would look like, they create. Maybe a voting function in every thread, so others would be able, to show if they likes the concept. I think companys would like this idea also, to get some new ideas of gaming and a voting function, to check the feedback from other gamers.
I think hundreds of companys are building planes. Its time for the invention of the helicopter now 
btw sry for my bad english
Comments
Before people stop demanding for the developers to keep the same amount of quality on every part of the game as MMO's released before it, innovation won't happen (if the developers listen to the whine, that is).
The game should have X customization. It should have PvP. It should have PvE. It shouldn't be slow. It shouldn't be fast. It must have great UI. It must have jumping, it must not have zones, it must be fun and the only way to be fun is to have all that in the game.
Now after all that, where is the room for innovation? The double edged sword with innovation is that it takes more work to create something new than reuse the old mechanics. It creates risks and unforeseen problems which need be tested thoroughly. The system won't be perfect at start (or later even) while with old mechanics everything has been tried and tested, it's much safer.
Before people stop asking for the same quality as with any MMO out there and cope with the fact that no new system is created perfect from the start, there won't be much innovation. Blame yourselves.
Game concept discussion forum concerning MMORPGs can be found here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/472/MMORPG-Game-Concepts.html
And yes.. you are right to some extent. But as long as most developers get enough revenue out of the old fashioned concept... they will continue. You can just vote with your wallet.. that's all you can do.
Sorry but I think you're just seeing what you want to see.
Games most certainly have gotten better, take a look at games like WoW or Everquest 2, and compare them to games like Everquest 1. Then compare SWTOR and The Secret World and how they're looking compared to the current generation of games. Not to mention games like EVE or A Tale in the Desert, which follow different paths of gameplay.
We've definately seen innovation with things like instancing, public quest systems, the storyline systems SWTOR is apparently bringing. Better graphics, new business models, better social connectivity, and so on.
Sure, 90% of the genre is still the standard fantasy rpg style, but more and more alternatives are coming up. EVE, Champions, Star Trek, Fallen Earth, The Secret World, the mystery project from Carbine Studios, the supposed World of Darkness MMO from White Wolf/CCP, APB, and so on. Like any genre, the only way we're going to continue to get innovation is to let time pass and let the developers iterate on their games.
Now, MMOs might actually have a harder time with sweeping "innovations" within a product, but that's because we get smaller innovations more frequently. Their goal is to get you to play one game for a long time rather than always buy the next new game.
But in the end, one man's "innovation" is another man's "boring game mechanic". So really, the answer lies in your perception.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
EQ1 copied diku mudd and put a 3d interface on it. Not very inovative.
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Innovation comes in small steps, especially when you have 60 million dollars at stake.
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If you have 60 million to throw around, I encourage you to create a very innovative MMO.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Well my first great mmo was ultima online, which i played for 4 years. After that daoc,ao,aoc,wow,vco,fe and so on and so on. No matter what game u play, after a couple of week u feel, like u have never changed and stil play the game u left before. None of the games i have played longer than 12 moth, some i left even after 3 month cause of being bored. To use an m16 gun instead of a bow is no innovation. And to use a spaceship instead of a dragon or eagle is also the same. And if my mob has 16 bit colours or 32 bit realy doesnt matter to me.
What i am talkin about, is a milestone. Do u remember donkey kong or pacman? And then a game comes up to the scene like popolous or civilization. Thats a change and innovation. The last mmo i was interested in, (cant remeber the name) was cancelled 1 or 2 years ago. This was some kind of fantasy but looked more like the ancient rome and u could have had up to 6 npc followers. Maybe u take 6 archers with you, or 3 warriors and 3 healers, somthn like that. That was not new for offlinegames but a very interesting detail in an onlinegame. This is what i am talkin about
While I agree with you that we haven't seen "progress" as far as innovation goes, there have certainly been changes to the genre, if for nothing else to cheapen development costs and to hook more players with less real content.
As far as the Pac-Man vs. Populous comment- those are completely different genres. The biggest differences you're likely to see according to that would be MMO differences- RPG (which aren't really role-playing anymore), MMOFPS, etc. I may have completely missed your point.
I would like to see some real MMORPGs surface though, rather than the MMO action/adventure schlock that's been vomited on us of late. An MMORTS would be interesting as well.
I honestly don't think there will be an intense gaming surge for another 50-100 years when technology permits us to create something similar to The World from //.hack
Games have entertained us for the past few decades because of the leaps and bounds that were happening every year. With every new game there was practically a new technology--so even as the number of features spiraled downward-- all the "new" graphics and game types were enough to keep our minds pre-occupied.
At the moment we have plateaued. Each game released is only able to improve on previous games in minor ways, due to the sheer amount of resources it takes to make a game. I want to say that this could be fixed by an indie company--or a main stream corporation in this day and age-- but even if they poured a billion dollars into a game, our minds would establish redundancies within the first few months.
Oh look-- i'm just pointing and clicking.
Oh look - I'm still pressing hotkeys.
Oh look - I'm still doing the same thing.
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What we need is a change in not only soft-ware, but hardware too.
The keyboard-mouse interface is REALLY what is becoming redundant.
Anyways--- just my opinion.
*Edited a stupid mistake
Actually that was never proven (vey old debat). EQ1 did just as Meridian 59 did. The step was to make them graphical and support more players in any given area. Diku mud controversy was just the format of the chat system for the most part, but it is basically what every MUD derivative used on the grand scale of the development tree. You are on the right trail though, EQ1 was more of a MUD derivative rather than a hack-n-slash/RPG clone, at least for some years.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
All the MMORPG currently on the market is the sum of the innovation that works which was copied from each other.
And if you have 100 million dollar you want to risk to creat a new innovated MMO with the risk of lossing all your money, by all means fill free.
See Guild Wars 2 for more information. Thank you.
Innovation on a large scale died in 2005 when WoW hit it big.
Now you'll only find innovation from indie companies, and they'll get ignored or have their ideas stolen and watered down.
hmm.. actually the diversity of them made them popular to me. What works for one game does not work any longer if they are all doing the same thing. So subscribing to two or three games at a time becomes... pointless. They all claim they are the next step when launched, the next generation, but it's all hype, they are the same now, and all the stuff that apparently does not work. Once they were all very different to one another though…
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Silvermachin -- the game you mentioned is "Gods and Heroes", and it might be uncancelled again. (Would that be like "undead"? Maybe it will bite Autoassault and raise it from the dead...)
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Want innovation? Guild Wars 2.
Sad to say this, but all of them are the same since that's what most player wants.
If 80% of the gamer want "A", and 20% of the gamer want "B". As a developer I'll most likely creat content that contain "A" instead of "B".
There is always exception of course. For company that target on the niche market. But that's what really everything have come to.
i read an article today !
if i understood correctly the post it ment this !
they design the game for the major console they would aim their game and then port them to pc
should be the reverse but its too mutch trouble this way its almost one size fit all
less costly (but it does have the side effect of lower quality in pc game by a hugge chunk since pretty mutch know the gear they use(oh the gear = about when wow was lunched(2004 )yep dated even for those never changing computer!
Uh what that makes is ~80% of gamers hoping from game to game as they are all the same, while mainly sticking with the most popular. So it's about flavor of the month what it comes to. For a company, that is fatal. If they kept diversified, 40% would keep those companies in business for years. I suppose they will for some time keep plugging away at the same thing… expecting different results.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
^ well if the company keeps making money that's what you'll keep on seeing.
And if there's another company that makes something different that gets them big money, other company will follow and imitate.
And it's not that they are not making niche games. It's that people are expecting niche game with large funding. Which is not possible.
Nothing innovative there...
WoW didn't have any innovation, still hasn't actually. Blows your theory up a little bit. And I'm trying to think of something Age of Conan did different (boobs maybe?)
Unless you count just making things simpler as innovation.
As for other games, whereas most big budget MMOs these days do one or two small things differently, as their gimmick, MMOs of the past would be entirely restructured, innovative, and different from one another, or add on a whole massive new dimension to the game (like how DAoC took EverQuest PvE, polished it (and dumbed some of it down) and then added the massively successful and innovative RvR system entwined with it)
And no, modern MMOs aren't a summation of all the innovation before them, because if you compared old MMOs with new ones side by side, the feature list of the new ones would look embarassing, they lack so much in terms of depth.
1. No exclamation points or question marks above npcs heads for questing through the entire game.
2. Event System - It is alot more than just a public quest. Over 160 events in the game.
3. No dedicated healer - That means the holy trinity is no more.
4. Class skills combine to make additional effects and damage.
6. The first 5 skills on the skill bar is determined by what weapon your profession is holding.
That is just off the top of my head and ArenaNet is not done yet. You need to read the GW2 FAQ and updated information before people make comments like you did which are completely false.
Ok, not bashing on Guild Wars here or anything, but some of those aren't innovations, and some of those aren't even new period.
1. Most oldschool MMOs had you talk to NPCs to find quests, the moronic system of "!" over the head started with Star Wars Galaxies and WoW (mostly the latter). It's used to better guilding lemmings through the linear content. But going back to the way things used to be is NOT innovative.
Event system IS a lot like a public quest, but we've yet to see how it actually works. It certainly sounds interesting.
No dedicated healer has been done in various other MMOs.
Class skill combining I think was done in LotRO, but if they expand upon it it could be interesting.
Last one, sounds innovative actually. Or simplified, we'll see.
No some are not completely new but ArenaNet takes them alot further than just the basic. I say that is being innovative. Innovation does not always mean you have to create something completely new all the time.
I see what you are saying Silvermachin that its the same process over and over again and very few games are different. I think what might be happening is that the companies are focusing too much on trying to make their games for a casual players and hardcore players at the same time. Since they are focusing on a broader audience its harder for them to add huge innovative features because they dont want a system where casual player wont like. I think what also might be happening is that they are putting the push on end game content and when everyone gets to the end game they get bored because there is nothing to do. So instead of focusing on the experience for the player for innovation in the game, they focus on the end game trying to keep the highend players around. WoW is doing a good job of it because every few years they release an expansion so players can go farther for a time and then grind for gear again. When they get bored Blizzard sends out another expansion. So I think they are still brining innovative concepts in each game that comes out its just focused on a different part of the game wether its big or small.
You trying to say the mmo market is healthy? How many games closed just in this past year? There are more failures now than ever, and it's only going to get worse as they keep up the cloning machines and revamping existing ones to the same dumbed down anti-social play style.
Niche is exactly what it’ll come to, either that or the unemployment line. Pulling 400k long-term subscribers is business, and competing with 100+ other companies means you need to target individual groups. It’s the same thing MUD’s did, and some are even still pay to play. If you make all mmo’s like hack-n-slash/rpg’s and cloned at that, than it’ll fail just like those games did when they were off-line/multi-player games. It’s bad business to just create a new widget like the existing ones and hope the market swings your way, because it doesn’t.
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*looks up* pssst... daffas, cap increase isn't innovative and Blizzard didn't invent that
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.