Editted to fix a typo on my behalf in quoting the article.
The June issue of Game Informer has some info on this subject that I'll share: Stepping Into Final Fantasy XIV's Magical World by Phillip Kollar that I will quote.
"Needless to say the actual in-game combat is less exciting than the cutscenes, though it also recalls other Final Fantasy games better than XI did. Once you enter combat, the action gauge begins filling up (similar to the ATB gauge that solo FF fans are used to). After three to four seconds, you're allowed to select an attack. Your available actions depend on your class, which can be changed on the fly simly by switching weapons. For example, if you have an axe equipped, you'll become a Marauder and unlock the "Hack" ability, which does a single strike.
You'll need to wait another few seconds for your action gauge to refill between every attack, which makes the combat in FF XIV sluggish even by MMO standards. Other strategic elements such as the effect gauge, which controls attack strength, and the TP meter, which builds and allows for stronger abilities throughout the course of combat, add layers of complexity. However, they may not be enough to engage players in an otherwise very slow-paced combat system."
I don't think a meter filling up and waiting for an attack means there's server lag holding you back for several seconds. This sort of action has been described by other sources as well as HOW THE GAME PLAYS. Not an excuse that it's an alpha build and is just slow, but there's mechanics in the game designed to make it slow.
But I don't think I can judge that as a bad thing over all. Making a MMO feel like the console Final Fantasy games sounds like a good thing. It just seems to need a little tweeking.
The issue with XIV is that the time between all actions is longer than MMOs, and that's a direct result of tying all (or most) actions to the ATB bar. If you compare, for example, WoW, most two-handed weapons have a 2.5-3.8 second or so delay, but you have a bunch of other skills that can be used instantly right after the other, which gives far more actions per time period. FFXIV, by comparison, has a 3-second delay or so, but you have no actions you can take in between.
The other issue is that all of FFXIV's animations are so long and elaborate, which gives the game a slower feel, even if the rate of actual number of actions taken is fairly high.
That being said, the earliest videos were being horribly affected by both lag and I think what was a somewhat more sluggish ATB fill rate. Both seem to have been resolved, and more recent videos look far more zippy, although still quite below other MMOs. Still, I was actually somewhat uninterested in XIV until after I saw the videos, and am slightoy excited for the game now, so... ::shrug::
The issue with XIV is that the time between all actions is longer than MMOs, and that's a direct result of tying all (or most) actions to the ATB bar. If you compare, for example, WoW, most two-handed weapons have a 2.5-3.8 second or so delay, but you have a bunch of other skills that can be used instantly right after the other, which gives far more actions per time period. FFXIV, by comparison, has a 3-second delay or so, but you have no actions you can take in between.
The other issue is that all of FFXIV's animations are so long and elaborate, which gives the game a slower feel, even if the rate of actual number of actions taken is fairly high.
That being said, the earliest videos were being horribly affected by both lag and I think what was a somewhat more sluggish ATB fill rate. Both seem to have been resolved, and more recent videos look far more zippy, although still quite below other MMOs. Still, I was actually somewhat uninterested in XIV until after I saw the videos, and am slightoy excited for the game now, so... ::shrug::
You are correct in saying that. We must not forget, though, that these adjustments also create several differences when compared to faster paced combat systems.
For example, when a) your all skills share a global cooldown, b) you can't spam more skills than your current TP allows and c) you can't restore your mp easily, you have to take into consideration what skill to use, when, and so on. You can't just spam 1 1 2 3 2 1 3 4. If you do skill 1, you can't do skill 2 after.. so which one would be more beneficial to use? And when skills have situational uses, one has to consider if it would be better to use skill 2 or 3 at particular time.
Now, though, the Alpha test is not like this at all. For one, the testers have only few skills to use at time. There is no need to use situational skills because the mobs for the most part aren't that hard. They die from few hits, and they're either alone or in groups of two so you don't really have to think of what to do and when. Only under certain circumstances you are required to do what I described above, for example when a leve monster tries to flee from you. It's not much, but it's a start.
TP doesn't really matter either. When you have only few skills to choose from, it doesn't matter which you use- if you have the TP, you can do it. No need to think about it.
MP lasts throughout the leve easily, too. You don't really have to worry about running out of mana, so that is irrelevant too.
Considering the first few levels also works as a tutorial for the game, it's not a bad thing that things are pretty basic. The game won't stay the same regardless of level. You gain more skills, fight harder monsters (in larger groups) and you'll be able to do longer levequests as well. That's when the system will truly open up for the players. Global cooldown, TP and MP are no longer irrelevant to surviving.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The other thread is a good example of how ignorance and blind faith on journalism can affect people's views.
Now what exactly have the Alpha testers got to test? They have soloed their way to 20, doing quests and fighting monsters one by one with their AI still under development (= broken). They have had to deal with extreme latency issues (3-5 seconds to trigger skill after pressing the macro) and have yet to scratch the surface of the game.
The fact here is that the system is designed to be much more fun when grouping and/or fighting multiple monsters at time. Right now the testers fight mostly alone one, maybe two monsters at time, because when soloing it is not a good idea to go against that many mobs when there is still lag to deal with that might get you killed. Here is a quote from someone that has played the Alpha (but is also very cynical when it comes to FFXI):
"So far I've been partying and it's a hit. Very fast, and xp is hot, and the battle pace is much faster, thought you can still talk to set things up. I've found it's retarded to not party. As to Why, I think I'd be going well beyond the NDA. Let's just say that there's a reason why they said their intention is party vs. multiple monster combat."
This is what most testers have yet to do, be it due to lag or because they want to get familiar with the game first. This is where the combat shines.
If you don't like that combat is much more fun in group than alone, then there are other games that suit your needs. It is, however, not "dull" like it was in fact in FFXI most of the time, and there are very good reasons for that which some people overlook or simply don't know about.
From what I have heard, a lot of the alpha testers are very disappointed with the way the battle system feels especially the Japanese testers, quoting that it is "boring". Japanese players tend to be very defensive for SE but right now it is not the case so you could say it is a very serious concern. SE has also acknowledged this and plan to relook at the battle system.
Honestly if the majority of the alpha testers (loyal fans that usually try to defend SE) are not pleased with it then something is indeed wrong and they need to keep complaining and stay on SE about it. This is what alpha is for, so they can tune the game and get player reactions as well as fix bugs. SE wants this kind of feedback as stated in interviews and it is needed to make the best game possible for its fans. Developers do not see what the players see, we have to tell them.
I would post my main source but I would be breaking the NDA (I'm not 'not' in alpha forums) so here is another (you will also find an article link here):
From what I have heard, a lot of the alpha testers are very disappointed with the way the battle system feels especially the Japanese testers, quoting that it is "boring". Japanese players tend to be very defensive for SE but right now it is not the case so you could say it is a very serious concern. SE has also acknowledged this and plan to relook at the battle system.
Honestly if the majority of the alpha testers (loyal fans that usually try to defend SE) are not pleased with it then something is indeed wrong and they need to keep complaining and stay on SE about it. This is what alpha is for, so they can tune the game and get player reactions as well as fix bugs. SE wants this kind of feedback as stated in interviews and it is needed to make the best game possible for its fans. Developers do not see what the players see, we have to tell them.
I would post my main source but I would be breaking the NDA (I'm not 'not' in alpha forums) so here is another (you will also find an article link here):
Well, although in the post above yours I explained why it is how it is, you make few assumptions that I don't agree with.
First of all, I don't know where do you get your claim that Japanese players tend to be very defensive for SE?
Secondly, majority of FFXI players (that also test XIV) are cynical and will call out on SE when ever possible, at least those that talk on the forums.
Thirdly, the Japanese are not the majority of the alpha testers, and as far as the westerners are concerned, the only site outside of the official test site that talks freely about the Alpha has had a positive first impression about the game, latency issues aside.
Nothing else wrong with what you're saying. There was a like 4 page thread about that article and that is the reason why I made this topic, so there's no need to bring it up again.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
First of all, I don't know where do you get your claim that Japanese players tend to be very defensive for SE?
Secondly, majority of FFXI players (that also test XIV) are cynical and will call out on SE when ever possible, at least those that talk on the forums.
Thirdly, the Japanese are not the majority of the alpha testers, and as far as the westerners are concerned, the only site outside of the official test site that talks freely about the Alpha has had a positive first impression about the game, latency issues aside.
Nothing else wrong with what you're saying. There was a like 4 page thread about that article and that is the reason why I made this topic, so there's no need to bring it up again.
I got the assumption because SE stated this themselves in a Q&A, they were asked what the difference between the Japanese feedback and the NA EU feedback was, and who was more concerned with what etc. The article is on ZAM somewhere. They go on to say that the Japanese players tend to be very defense of whatever SE is doing and NA+EU very critical.
The Japanese are a very big chunk of the alpha test, 1/3 of it. Since they are very defensive for SE and are now actually criticizing the system as being "boring" it is held as a very high opinion. If you can read the alpha forums you will see how much the opinion of Japanese players has shifted and SE has noticed it and have stated that they are looking into it. There is nothing wrong with all the criticism SE also stated in that Q&A that this is something they are looking for and they want to know what every tester is thinking and what they don't like/like.
I got the assumption because SE stated this themselves in a Q&A, they were asked what the difference between the Japanese feedback and the NA EU feedback was, and who was more concerned with what etc. The article is on ZAM somewhere. They go on to say that the Japanese players tend to be very defense of whatever SE is doing and NA+EU very critical.
The Japanese are a very big chunk of the alpha test, 1/3 of it. Since they are very defensive for SE and are now actually criticizing the system as being "boring" it is held as a very high opinion. If you can read the alpha forums you will see how much the opinion of Japanese players has shifted and SE has noticed it and have stated that they are looking into it. There is nothing wrong with all the criticism SE also stated in that Q&A that this is something they are looking for and they want to know what every tester is thinking and what they don't like/like.
That's a very good analysis, but I'd like to present another view on it.
The article from mmosite has nothing to do with reports the Japanese submitted to the developers- but comments made by the testers on public (anonymous) forums, most likely. I'm fairly confident that the writer of the article could not have come across the official feedback reports sent to SE, for obvious reasons.
When anonymous (and I mean truly anonymous- no "accounts", no usernames to see which people post which comments), the Japanese do not hold back like they usually do. That's probably why they prefer anonymity on the internet too. On the web they complain about the test and features just like the rest of us, because no one knows who they are. It's weird indeed. From those comments the mmosite most probably got their info.
But on the Alpha site, they most likely hold back on the comments, just as the director said in that interview. I sincerely doubt their methods have changed, but have remained largely the same. Be polite on the official forums, complain on the anonymous forums.
How am I aware of all this? Well, I've read a blog made by Elmer the Pointy, one of the major translators of articles that have anything to do with XI and XIV. Amazing guy, and he has taken an indepth look at the Japanese culture and how it relates to FFXI before. Pretty cool stuff.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
The issue with XIV is that the time between all actions is longer than MMOs, and that's a direct result of tying all (or most) actions to the ATB bar. If you compare, for example, WoW, most two-handed weapons have a 2.5-3.8 second or so delay, but you have a bunch of other skills that can be used instantly right after the other, which gives far more actions per time period. FFXIV, by comparison, has a 3-second delay or so, but you have no actions you can take in between.
The other issue is that all of FFXIV's animations are so long and elaborate, which gives the game a slower feel, even if the rate of actual number of actions taken is fairly high.
That being said, the earliest videos were being horribly affected by both lag and I think what was a somewhat more sluggish ATB fill rate. Both seem to have been resolved, and more recent videos look far more zippy, although still quite below other MMOs. Still, I was actually somewhat uninterested in XIV until after I saw the videos, and am slightoy excited for the game now, so... ::shrug::
You are correct in saying that. We must not forget, though, that these adjustments also create several differences when compared to faster paced combat systems.
For example, when a) your all skills share a global cooldown, b) you can't spam more skills than your current TP allows and c) you can't restore your mp easily, you have to take into consideration what skill to use, when, and so on. You can't just spam 1 1 2 3 2 1 3 4. If you do skill 1, you can't do skill 2 after.. so which one would be more beneficial to use? And when skills have situational uses, one has to consider if it would be better to use skill 2 or 3 at particular time.
Now, though, the Alpha test is not like this at all. For one, the testers have only few skills to use at time. There is no need to use situational skills because the mobs for the most part aren't that hard. They die from few hits, and they're either alone or in groups of two so you don't really have to think of what to do and when. Only under certain circumstances you are required to do what I described above, for example when a leve monster tries to flee from you. It's not much, but it's a start.
TP doesn't really matter either. When you have only few skills to choose from, it doesn't matter which you use- if you have the TP, you can do it. No need to think about it.
MP lasts throughout the leve easily, too. You don't really have to worry about running out of mana, so that is irrelevant too.
Considering the first few levels also works as a tutorial for the game, it's not a bad thing that things are pretty basic. The game won't stay the same regardless of level. You gain more skills, fight harder monsters (in larger groups) and you'll be able to do longer levequests as well. That's when the system will truly open up for the players. Global cooldown, TP and MP are no longer irrelevant to surviving.
From what I have heard, a lot of the alpha testers are very disappointed with the way the battle system feels especially the Japanese testers, quoting that it is "boring". Japanese players tend to be very defensive for SE but right now it is not the case so you could say it is a very serious concern. SE has also acknowledged this and plan to relook at the battle system.
Honestly if the majority of the alpha testers (loyal fans that usually try to defend SE) are not pleased with it then something is indeed wrong and they need to keep complaining and stay on SE about it. This is what alpha is for, so they can tune the game and get player reactions as well as fix bugs. SE wants this kind of feedback as stated in interviews and it is needed to make the best game possible for its fans. Developers do not see what the players see, we have to tell them.
I would post my main source but I would be breaking the NDA (I'm not 'not' in alpha forums) so here is another (you will also find an article link here):
http://www.eorzeapedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3883
Well, although in the post above yours I explained why it is how it is, you make few assumptions that I don't agree with.
First of all, I don't know where do you get your claim that Japanese players tend to be very defensive for SE?
Secondly, majority of FFXI players (that also test XIV) are cynical and will call out on SE when ever possible, at least those that talk on the forums.
Thirdly, the Japanese are not the majority of the alpha testers, and as far as the westerners are concerned, the only site outside of the official test site that talks freely about the Alpha has had a positive first impression about the game, latency issues aside.
Nothing else wrong with what you're saying. There was a like 4 page thread about that article and that is the reason why I made this topic, so there's no need to bring it up again.
I got the assumption because SE stated this themselves in a Q&A, they were asked what the difference between the Japanese feedback and the NA EU feedback was, and who was more concerned with what etc. The article is on ZAM somewhere. They go on to say that the Japanese players tend to be very defense of whatever SE is doing and NA+EU very critical.
The Japanese are a very big chunk of the alpha test, 1/3 of it. Since they are very defensive for SE and are now actually criticizing the system as being "boring" it is held as a very high opinion. If you can read the alpha forums you will see how much the opinion of Japanese players has shifted and SE has noticed it and have stated that they are looking into it. There is nothing wrong with all the criticism SE also stated in that Q&A that this is something they are looking for and they want to know what every tester is thinking and what they don't like/like.
That's a very good analysis, but I'd like to present another view on it.
The article from mmosite has nothing to do with reports the Japanese submitted to the developers- but comments made by the testers on public (anonymous) forums, most likely. I'm fairly confident that the writer of the article could not have come across the official feedback reports sent to SE, for obvious reasons.
When anonymous (and I mean truly anonymous- no "accounts", no usernames to see which people post which comments), the Japanese do not hold back like they usually do. That's probably why they prefer anonymity on the internet too. On the web they complain about the test and features just like the rest of us, because no one knows who they are. It's weird indeed. From those comments the mmosite most probably got their info.
But on the Alpha site, they most likely hold back on the comments, just as the director said in that interview. I sincerely doubt their methods have changed, but have remained largely the same. Be polite on the official forums, complain on the anonymous forums.
How am I aware of all this? Well, I've read a blog made by Elmer the Pointy, one of the major translators of articles that have anything to do with XI and XIV. Amazing guy, and he has taken an indepth look at the Japanese culture and how it relates to FFXI before. Pretty cool stuff.