I honestly don't see the point for articles such as this. For many people this is just plain common sense. If you have heavy negativity on both sides of a business relationship (which is what this is), you will not have good communication nor a healthy community environment. For many of those who don't see this as common sense, there is little will or ability to change ones mindset or 'do anything' about it.
As much as I hate to say it, the only way to 'fix' a situation like this is to have developers start making games that restore player confidence. It's like any product, if you start buying a string of crappy products, sooner or later the consumer base is going to get disillusioned by those products and turn their attention elsewhere. Fairly straight forward, and again fairly common sense.
There seems to be very few developers out there who seem to really be trying to push the envelope in a direction that helps MMOs grow. Most seem too conserned with profits / getting the game out the door to put the time necessary to make an MMO successful. Now I think there are pleanty of devs slaving away coding long hours, but they ultimately aren't the ones in charge. They contribute sure, but it's the creative lead and the producer that steer the game. For most MMO companies these two major contributers to the games' vision & finance need to really step up their game.
The MMO industry is a new one, and just like any new industry, without innovation and the determination for excellence, it won't survive. On both fronts the MMO industry (as a whole) needs to step it up. There are just far too few studios out there striving for both, and far too many striving for neither.
Oh, the poor devs. They are just fine with going to conventions and trade shows and being treated like rock stars, though.
What a shame you got in first, eh?
I really enjoyed the article and the points Jon raises are things I've thought about (and posted, for example on the Alganon forum) for quite some time. I find it really irritating to read constant complaints from people about developers when the complaints seem to be based on a profound ignorance of what a developer actually does, and what part they play in the overall production of a game. I'm not saying I know these things, because I don't, but I do know that trying to see things from the other person's perspective and attempting to have good, clear communication between all parties involved usually help in any situation. I also prefer to think that people are, most of the time, trying to do their best to do things well within whatever constraints are imposed upon them. People who go into game-making do so from a love of games (I assume) and I'm guessing that their hope is that they will produce a great game which people will enjoy.
The other aspect of all this which interests me is that if someone were to take the word "game" out of some of the forums and then ask people to guess what was being discussed, they would think it was something of crucial importance, a life or death kind of situation. It's hard for me to understand why people get quite so exercised about what is, after all, a leisure activity not a human rights issue. Even if, worst case scenario, the company is crap, the game is crap, the customer service is crap; it is still just a game we are talking about here.
CCP: Good dev's, generally well liked by thier players, because of the content they provide and the cost of the new content.... free aside from subscriptions.
The problem with game forums is you really only have 2 groups posting the hard core fanboi's who will defend everything and anything no matter what and the haters who feel they have been mislead, slighted, nerfed, issues not addressed, ignored and/or not even acknowledged.
This behavior and posting style is then rewarded and reinforced by developers replying to it, community managers playing into it, and also by seemingly ignoring the problems that do exist zealously defending the game and the "vision".
Because that behavior has been rewarded by replies, flame wars with high post counts, and developers and community managers not even acknowledging the problems that do exist, feeding the flame wars directly or indirectly the constructive posters either leave in disgust or join the mob.
well here hows this. Usually when i say something like "Fuck Devs" its usually eff the guy who is running the show....not the guy who did animations, sound, coding, or writing. Its the guy who said "yeah lets go through with this idea." The individuals passing half baked ideas and saying these games are ready for launch when they clearly aren't. Those are the people I am sure most of us are talking about. As for devs coming back to the public to cry about how much we verbally beat on them. They must be confusing us for some people that give a shit. What do you want us to say? Congratulations on your newest pile of unimaginative crap?
One issue that was not covered was the move to ranked forums where players are ranked for their comments. That’s one great way for devs to only hear what they want to hear.
What kills innovation are fans and forums. Give a 16-year-old a keyboard and freedom of speech, I'll show you how games go from awesome to a cesspool of criticism and bad development choices.
I like how Guild Wars doesn't have a forum on their main site. Leave the snide comments at the door. Do 2000+ other opinions really matter when the only person you care about listening to is the developer? I could care less about what 16-year-old Joe wants in his game, tell me what the developer is doing and I'll make my own damn decision on if I want to play it.
"CCP: Good dev's, generally well liked by thier players, because of the content they provide and the cost of the new content.... free aside from subscriptions."
You're kidding right? CCP are the same group of devs that were playing favorites and cheating within their own game. That's great if you are their buddies but what about those paying customers that are the ones being cheated against? Devs should be developing games, not "being one of the boys" and forming conflicts of interest within the player base. CCP is easily one of the most corrupt and unprofessional developing studios around.
You will have critics in any kind of business... Its the right of the buyer to critic the object of his desire as long he/she pays for it... Its the duty of the seller to hear it, knowing that there will be exagerations, and they DO NOT have the right to be ´hurt in his/her feelings´ and act on it. Its called risk of the business... I am an entrepeneaur too, I do hear a lot of complains of my job (mostly because of MY fault), and in the end of the day I think ´I am being paid for it, its the life I picked to live, therefore I will swallow the good critics and the bad critics...´ . Of course somethings are just unfair, but I have to live with that... After all I am gaining money with that and the one who is giving me his money have all the right to complain... Be it fair or not. They bought this right... However, I need to develop the maturity to know how to separete the things... Be polite, understanding and even false regarding of what I am feeling right now (I am not going to explode with my clients).
The Mythic thing of not wating to ´hurt´ their developers and therefore do not have a forum is somewhat laughable... They are not doing any favor to us, they are being PAID to develop a game that, even if we dont know what we do want, we do have the right to express it... I hope the Mythic suits mature to konow that the heart of his gme are not the butt hurt devs, but the player base....
It is just as easy to express your concerns or complaints with proper etiquette and start an active positive discussion. Why players feel the need to come up with as many version of "You Suck" or "I hope you die" is baffling.
I truly think that is the root of all of the issues now. Why would you want to read that crap as a developer? You don't nearly as much positive feedback because those who enjoy the game are playing it and have no need to go to a forum. So all you would get to read all day is hatred posts that are made to be as angry and evil as they can, since in their warped mines that is how you get a point across. But the opposite is true, you post like that and your point is lost forever. No one will waste time reading it and responding since you didn't take any time to post properly.
The die hard fans of MMOs need to relax a bit and remember to tell themselves it's just a game. Seriously it is just a game. There is never a need to nerd rage out and make 10 posts in a world with as many expletives as you can conjure up. Simple post "I am not happy with change to X, why was it made and can we get it changed back.", then maybe a discussion can be started where a dev will explain why the change had to be made. You never know, that positive discussion might lead to the dev realizing it should be changed back too, or to you realizing it did need to be changed and it makes sense.
So yes, it is an unpopular position on a gaming forum full of players. But I truly believe the hardcore fanatic gamers are the cause of all the communication issues and hatred flowing around. If they learn to relax and post like an adult then I'm sure more communication will result.
This. A thousand times, this. I think it may be the first time SnarlingWolf and I have ever agreed on anything, but he is spot on. If you curse and...er...snarl, your point is generally lost in the hostility, but if you are reasonable and adult, you just may start a discussion that could end up getting some compromise - or, at the very least, getting you an explanation of the changes you are upset about.
This approach was tried I know (I was there) with the NGE and it got no where. That event and the publicity it got is a large part, I think, of why the shift had been made to primarily going straight to the hostility route as well. Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games.
I'm willing to bet the results will be 80+% that No they don't think so. And this is not to say that "nah nah" players know everything, like some people here will try to construe it. Players do know what they like (again, contrary to some of the mind readers around here) and while I'm not saying 100% have great suggestions their are some great ones out there.
THere are ways developers can do polls once players log in to get feedback. They can have community managers posts threads to see topics of concern, then cull that list and use those in in-game surveys. They can include feedback boxes also allowing 150 to 500 word replies as well. Thereare easy things developers can do on a monthly basis that they aren't doing to grow the sense of community and that player input is truly valued.
" Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games."
Go to the Asheron's Call official forums and click on dev tracker. Not only do they listen, but they discuss and implement changes. Maybe in your world the developers don't listen but in the real world they do.
Listening doesn't mean agreeing, developers could listen to you all day long and not agree with the points you've tried to get across. That is where my initial post comes in, very few players have any clue how to get their points across. Instead of trying to have a discussion they start posts basically telling the devs they s uck and to change feature x. That will never get them to change something. But if you approach it by saying you disagree with a feature and here are reasons you think it should change you could actually start up a positive discussion which could bring in other players who share or disagree with the point of few and bring more light on the subject.
How many forums can you go to and see the filth that players spew towards the developers and then bitch that they aren't listened to?
And Nifa how can this possibly be the first time you've agreed with me, I post so many wonderfully correct things. :-)
I very much agree that increasing the understanding of what devs are faced with in the players and getting the devs back in touch with what it means to be a player (if they ever were in touch) are big elements here.
One thing developers are going to have to understand though, is that if they throw out the opinions of the entire community they throw out the good with the bad. Sure, you have to wade through a lot of misunderstanding, whining, trolling, etc but you also get real, useful feedback. A dev team that is really interested in producing a high quality game will understand how to pick the cherries out of the mud, and understand why it's wortth the effort.
I think the devs would do well to understand that if a person does blame them for something they shouldn't, it is about that person, not the devs, and his/her ignorance. Be understanding and don't take ingorance personally, and try to educate rather than get defensive.
Players - oh, man. Players, as individuals, need to take stock of themselves and understand the kind of attitude they are practically forcing on the devs. It is damn hard to keep a postive attitude and listen with an open mind when people are bombarding you with crap. Players need to seriously take a look at every post they make and ask themselves if they are trying to make a situation better or not. If not, I suggest you go beat up a pillow and scream at it awhile before you post if you are mad. Other players need to kick the jerks in the butt - don't let an outrageous post against devs or any part of the game company slide! The more of you that help to make being an ass unpopular, the less it will happen.
It will help devs to understand that many posts are made only for the purpose of blowing off steam, and certainly should not be taken personally. Devs should also have outlets for dumping their frustrations about players so they can get back to business with a fresh and open attitude.
Some forums have mediators whose business it is to interface between the 2. I think this ccan be a good idea - if you have someone who is cognizant of human behavior and can be less sensitive to it, then such a person can be a help. However, communication can be limited by such an individual too, because they edit too much, so that apporauch can also have its drawbacks.
A member of the dev team that is particualrly understanding of and responsive to the players is excellent - perhaps the team could be built from the beginning with such a person in mind.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
The trouble with your us and them approach is you forget that we are the paying customer and they are the company soliciting our business. The soloution is that these high and mighty developers need to realise that if they stomped their feet like children and ignored their customers and treated them like crap they'd be out of a job very fast.
Treat your customers like customers not like dirt and your business will get better, if not then tough luck and welcome to F2P with cash shop ville! We pay their wages, if we were not here to play their trash then they would be pumping gas or flipping burgers FACT!
We the customer are under no obligation to show them any respect or speak to them in a civil manner, if we don't like their crappy MMORPG then we stop paying them a monthly subscription to put food in their kids mouths. They are under no obligations to treat us with any respect or speak with us in a civil manner, however it could mean the difference between pumping gas or living a good lifestyle. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out who has the most to lose and gain in this, if they want to treat us like trash then fine but how many developers are working on WAR or AoC now compared to launch?
Besides 9/10 of the games made are total turds anyway and that's a fact, just hyped up crap where they tell us rubbish and at launch it's missing most of the features. They then claim they'll implement them soon and never do then complain about recieving abuse from angry customers! These developers are truly far more idiotic than I ever gave them credit for!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
The trouble with your us and them approach is you forget that we are the paying customer and they are the company soliciting our business. The soloution is that these high and mighty developers need to realise that if they stomped their feet like children and ignored their customers and treated them like crap they'd be out of a job very fast.
Treat your customers like customers not like dirt and your business will get better, if not then tough luck and welcome to F2P with cash shop ville! We pay their wages, if we were not here to play their trash then they would be pumping gas or flipping burgers FACT!
We the customer are under no obligation to show them any respect or speak to them in a civil manner, if we don't like their crappy MMORPG then we stop paying them a monthly subscription to put food in their kids mouths. They are under no obligations to treat us with any respect or speak with us in a civil manner, however it could mean the difference between pumping gas or living a good lifestyle. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out who has the most to lose and gain in this, if they want to treat us like trash then fine but how many developers are working on WAR or AoC now compared to launch?
Besides 9/10 of the games made are total turds anyway and that's a fact, just hyped up crap where they tell us rubbish and at launch it's missing most of the features. They then claim they'll implement them soon and never do then complain about recieving abuse from angry customers! These developers are truly far more idiotic than I ever gave them credit for!
Funny because i think excatly the same about gamers grinding their teeth in nerd rage. Also i like your logic that even though devs and players are not under any obligation to give respect to eachother but somehow devs should take all the abuse because it would mean the difference between pumping gas and living good life style. Interesting, but sorry that is not how it works. Also my outlook on humanity is quite positive and i know that all gamers are not jerks. So if dev is getting abuse from some nerd he has a full right to reply back in any manner he likes. Respect goes both ways, if you can't take the heat why start the trouble? in such confrontation its usually the angry nerd who cries like a little girl after getting what he deserved from a game developer.
Because lets be honest here, most of these didgital tough guys wouldn't dare abuse anyone if it was real life situation. Anonymity of internet makes everyone a tough guy.
True most people wouldn't abuse someone personally in a pub the same way they would someone who works at burger king or tescos or an MMO developer, but that is the way life works. You want to stay in business being rude to your customers no matter how difficult doesn't help and that's a stone cold fact.
The developers want to help themselves then treat your customers with respect, why on earth should I treat a rude waiter with respect and keep coming back every month? I wouldn't, so the onus is on them if they want to stay in business. If you don't like that then fine but it is a fact.
You treat your customers well wether they are difficult or not, jerks or not it doesn't matter money is money. If a developer has hurt feelings then he needs to be the bigger man and suck it up like all other business people, take it out on the neighbours cat or do some sports I don't know, but taking it out on your paying customers is pretty stupid. Then they wonder why they're left with a crappy game an less than 10k subs!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Because lets be honest here, most of these didgital tough guys wouldn't dare abuse anyone if it was real life situation. Anonymity of internet makes everyone a tough guy.
If you hand me a piece of crap in the store, try to sell me bs, I will tell you what you are saying in bs and that monster cable in your hand is crap. The only dev I have ever called out by name is Mr. Smart because he is a narcissist that needs to be called in some fashion or another. You are sadly mistaken if you think the only people on the forums of MMOS are "tough guys" or even just guys for that matter. Oh, and if you sold me garbage, I would also come back to your store, tell you you sold me garbage, and I want my money back. If you say no, you won't get it, then I will demand my money back, and if that doesn't work, hello chargeback. oh right, my mistake, the devs/pubs are so confident in their products they won't even offer refunds. Hmm, I can't imagine why players who get ripped off might release some steam in such a situation.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Developers don't go to trade shows, Managers and Directors and people in Marketting go to those events.. Occasionally the Lead Dev or Architect will be there. The developers who are actually responsibly for over 99% of the code that will be released are generally busy coding away during these events...
Guess you just proved the article's author correct on every point though MMO_Doubter, hats off to ya.
The reason I have never gone to an event is because the wrong people attend them... Managers, Directors, and Marketing Suits. Seriously we the players are screwed up and always will be... but the otherside of this "relationship" has people in it that have no business, and I mean business, being a part of a MMOG Development Studio... Managers, Directors, and Marketing Suits. Just get rid of them all period. The MMOG I want to play (and do play) has only Delevopers and Artists in their Team, each with a spice of business training tossed in for good flavor. This makes an excellent MMOG.
Get the Players out of MMOG's that are trying to change it into another genre of gaming. Tell them to go to that genre instead of trying to change MMOGs into what they are not meant to be.
Get the Managers, Directors, and Marketing Suits out of the development studios. They can look for work somewhere else.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
The problem is multi layered and hinges on some basic flaws in the dev-player communication methods that are traditional.
First off if you have 10k people regularly posting on a forum it makes no sense to assume they all want the same thing. Also a good portion of the people posting on them wont be actual players but people who play the forum game ether on accounts that are not active or not theirs. Even forum systems that have learned and take steps to make sure posters have actual accounts are not fool proof and dedicated forum trolls can be pretty determined.
Then you have posters who like to pretend they are on the dev team and regularly pull things out of thin air to make an issue of. Its almost amusing to see a senseless post rally 10 pages of responses in a day or two but that being said think of the mental pay off for those who start them.
Forums are convenient and traditional but are really not a good way to judge what your paying player base wants. It may seem cumbersome but in game surveys will give you a much better idea of what is really going on inside the game community.
As for devs they are human too. One thing I think is a mistake is the trend of hiring people who are playing the game or have even grown up on it in some cases. This might seem like reverse thinking of what sounds like a good idea but in an MMO people play different aspects of the games and regardless of the type of MMO a certain amount of competitiveness influences how players feel about things. You wont purge those feelings by making some one a dev so why assume that the job some how makes a human unbiased. It would help a lot to lay out the balance that is desired in a game before bringing in too much influence from player devs and it might also help shore up professionalism to hire more types who are more professional than player.
Teamwork really helps in operations like this but like all things in nature it has a downside. The better a group works together the more likely they are to develop an us vs them attitude. Its just instinct and only when recognized and monitored can it be controlled.
I think that outlines of a game's vision that are kind of written in stone would help a lot. It may be fun to think of a game evolving like a real world but real worlds come with some nasty side effects of such evolution and you don't want that in a game world for profit industry. Add to that as the OP indicated more transparency with the player base so everyone involved can have a more clear understanding of what is supposed to happen and I think progress could be made.
I don't think abusive language towards developers is helpful or justifiable. At the same time, I can understand why it happens. Let's look at one real life example that led to perhaps some of the most angry posts in MMO history.
Players are told in dev chats that they'll be getting profession revamps. They get excited, they renew their subscriptions and then every single one of the professions promised a revamp gets deleted. Those people are going to be royally pissed.
Players are sold an expansion, and then the very next day they receive an announcement that many of the brand new, functional features in the expansion are going to be deleted or disabled in two weeks time. Those people are also going to be royally pissed.
People spend a year or more unlocking elite skill trees that are simply wiped from the game in one patch.
Should these gamers verbally abuse the developers? No, not in an ideal world. Some of them may have remarkable self-control. Others simply won't.
That's all really beside the point though isn't it? Developers, or more accurately MMO managers, shouldn't pull this kind of b.s. man. It's no surprise that players, in general, are becoming increasingly frustrated with MMO companies. What do we get from them? Promises that are unfulfilled or broken outright, new layers of fees that feel increasingly manipulative; and even when customers provide constructive criticism, companies hold up their EULA and say, "sorry when you clicked 'accept' you agreed to give us your money, and take whatever we decide to give you, regardless of what our marketting department has told you."
If this continues, I expect the frustration to continue to escalate. Encouraging people to play nice on the forums isn't the answer, imho.
P.S. This is only one set of examples from one game. I could list other games that treated their customers with comparable levels of apparent disregard. I don't have to know how MMO development works to know what it means to be treated with respect by someone who wants my business.
Most of people have nothing against developers. They have everything against corporations.
EA, Atari, NC, Activision ... you name it.
Just a bunch of greedy managers ruining the game industry. Not only producing horrible games. But also making working as game developer nightmare of a job.
And that is a fact none can deny.
This is the problem, ain't it?
For the most part, developers need to be creative people. Whether they are in design, art or code... they need to be creative at their job to solve problems and make an entertaining product. And that's they key, it's a product. And because it's a product, you need someone in charge who knows how to run a studio, manage budgets, personnel, and take calls from this or that stockholder. And the vast majority of the time, these two skillsets do not appear in the same person.
So naturally, the guys good at running a business are in charge of the guys making the game.
Here's why it's a problem. Most people on the Business End in the game industry do play games. Think of them as your average WoW player. Your average WoW player thinks he's an expert in game design, but playing a game and being a good designer are two different things. Game design is an honest-to-God profession that requires years of experience designing games (rather than playing games) to be any good at it.
So what causes MMOs to fail is when the WoW-player-in-a-suit starts taking over the creative decision making process, because he's the boss, because he plays WoW, and therefore he knows better than the peons. And all his buddies in marketing agree with him. And this is why some of the best games come from indie studios, because often its a bunch of guys who are are talented at a gaming profession and the "acting-suit" is picked from within the ranks. Which is also why indie studios tend to have money problems and horrible business models, and problems meeting deadlines. So there needs to be balance between these two extremes.
But unfortunately large companies also have a lot of politics, which makes things more difficult. And politics plays a huge factor in terms of who gets put in charge (whereas in indie companies people tend to self-aggregrate and everyone is of similiar importance). At an indie company, you don't listen to Bob because he's the boss, but because he's actually the expert in that subject. And Bob can't really pull rank. At large companies, there's a lot of rank-pulling for whatever reason by people who think that being a boss implies they are the smartest person in the room.
So what's the solution? Companies (and to a large degree gamers) need to realize that Game Design is a profession, and requires both talent and experience, and that "I raid in WoW" is not a substitute for experience.
For the most part, developers need to be creative people. Whether they are in design, art or code..
No, not the programmers. Programming is a science, not an art. Have you ever tried to debug art?
Creativity and style ruin programming.
Yes, programmers need to be creative. Yes, programming for games is as much an art as a science. Also, stuff produced by the art team often does need to be debugged. I'm sorry but that's how it is.
I'm not very knowledgeable about the inner workings of game development but being familiar with representative slices of the MMO community makes me think that there really NEEDS to be some kind of buffer between MMO players and developers.
When I first heard that Mark Jacobs was NOT going to provide a company-sponsored site for discussion of Warhammer Online, I was pleased. The posts on discussion boards, in my opinion, consist of 98% garbage and 2% value. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want to have to slog through the cesspool of 98% to reach the 2% that might be useful.
The alternative of providing a robust feedback option in-game should be sufficient. Why shouldn't it be? Those who are sincerely concerned about a feature or game mechanic can click on the feedback button and write to their heart's content. Those who have nothing of legitimate value to offer will likely look elsewhere to fullfill their need for public entertainment and insult.
The down-side to this arrangement is that eventually there will be discussion board that arises to provide this outlet for the masses. And it is going to likely be a less moderated forum than the company would likely prefer to see. In order to counter this, I would simply provide a very clear statement that no comments, opinions, recommendations or criticism of the game will be even be reviewed or considered besides that which comes in from the feedback button. And perhaps I would offer an in-game incentive/reward for any player whose feedback actually has helped improve the game.
This system would not kill discussion boards but it might reduce the level of vitrol if players knew how truly pointless their public outcries were.
"CCP: Good dev's, generally well liked by thier players, because of the content they provide and the cost of the new content.... free aside from subscriptions."
You're kidding right? CCP are the same group of devs that were playing favorites and cheating within their own game. That's great if you are their buddies but what about those paying customers that are the ones being cheated against? Devs should be developing games, not "being one of the boys" and forming conflicts of interest within the player base. CCP is easily one of the most corrupt and unprofessional developing studios around.
1 dev, 4 years ago, who has long since left.
"CCP is easily one of the most corrupt and unprofessional developing studios around."
Bbased on what, exactly? Please use facts in your answer.
Comments
I honestly don't see the point for articles such as this. For many people this is just plain common sense. If you have heavy negativity on both sides of a business relationship (which is what this is), you will not have good communication nor a healthy community environment. For many of those who don't see this as common sense, there is little will or ability to change ones mindset or 'do anything' about it.
As much as I hate to say it, the only way to 'fix' a situation like this is to have developers start making games that restore player confidence. It's like any product, if you start buying a string of crappy products, sooner or later the consumer base is going to get disillusioned by those products and turn their attention elsewhere. Fairly straight forward, and again fairly common sense.
There seems to be very few developers out there who seem to really be trying to push the envelope in a direction that helps MMOs grow. Most seem too conserned with profits / getting the game out the door to put the time necessary to make an MMO successful. Now I think there are pleanty of devs slaving away coding long hours, but they ultimately aren't the ones in charge. They contribute sure, but it's the creative lead and the producer that steer the game. For most MMO companies these two major contributers to the games' vision & finance need to really step up their game.
The MMO industry is a new one, and just like any new industry, without innovation and the determination for excellence, it won't survive. On both fronts the MMO industry (as a whole) needs to step it up. There are just far too few studios out there striving for both, and far too many striving for neither.
What a shame you got in first, eh?
I really enjoyed the article and the points Jon raises are things I've thought about (and posted, for example on the Alganon forum) for quite some time. I find it really irritating to read constant complaints from people about developers when the complaints seem to be based on a profound ignorance of what a developer actually does, and what part they play in the overall production of a game. I'm not saying I know these things, because I don't, but I do know that trying to see things from the other person's perspective and attempting to have good, clear communication between all parties involved usually help in any situation. I also prefer to think that people are, most of the time, trying to do their best to do things well within whatever constraints are imposed upon them. People who go into game-making do so from a love of games (I assume) and I'm guessing that their hope is that they will produce a great game which people will enjoy.
The other aspect of all this which interests me is that if someone were to take the word "game" out of some of the forums and then ask people to guess what was being discussed, they would think it was something of crucial importance, a life or death kind of situation. It's hard for me to understand why people get quite so exercised about what is, after all, a leisure activity not a human rights issue. Even if, worst case scenario, the company is crap, the game is crap, the customer service is crap; it is still just a game we are talking about here.
CCP: Good dev's, generally well liked by thier players, because of the content they provide and the cost of the new content.... free aside from subscriptions.
Sony: not even going to get into it.
community mods need to be paid better, or even paid, and they need more freedom to delete all the trash.
official forums are paid for and hosted by the company, there should not be any freedom of speech on them.
The problem with game forums is you really only have 2 groups posting the hard core fanboi's who will defend everything and anything no matter what and the haters who feel they have been mislead, slighted, nerfed, issues not addressed, ignored and/or not even acknowledged.
This behavior and posting style is then rewarded and reinforced by developers replying to it, community managers playing into it, and also by seemingly ignoring the problems that do exist zealously defending the game and the "vision".
Because that behavior has been rewarded by replies, flame wars with high post counts, and developers and community managers not even acknowledging the problems that do exist, feeding the flame wars directly or indirectly the constructive posters either leave in disgust or join the mob.
well here hows this. Usually when i say something like "Fuck Devs" its usually eff the guy who is running the show....not the guy who did animations, sound, coding, or writing. Its the guy who said "yeah lets go through with this idea." The individuals passing half baked ideas and saying these games are ready for launch when they clearly aren't. Those are the people I am sure most of us are talking about. As for devs coming back to the public to cry about how much we verbally beat on them. They must be confusing us for some people that give a shit. What do you want us to say? Congratulations on your newest pile of unimaginative crap?
One issue that was not covered was the move to ranked forums where players are ranked for their comments. That’s one great way for devs to only hear what they want to hear.
What kills innovation are fans and forums. Give a 16-year-old a keyboard and freedom of speech, I'll show you how games go from awesome to a cesspool of criticism and bad development choices.
I like how Guild Wars doesn't have a forum on their main site. Leave the snide comments at the door. Do 2000+ other opinions really matter when the only person you care about listening to is the developer? I could care less about what 16-year-old Joe wants in his game, tell me what the developer is doing and I'll make my own damn decision on if I want to play it.
"CCP: Good dev's, generally well liked by thier players, because of the content they provide and the cost of the new content.... free aside from subscriptions."
You're kidding right? CCP are the same group of devs that were playing favorites and cheating within their own game. That's great if you are their buddies but what about those paying customers that are the ones being cheated against? Devs should be developing games, not "being one of the boys" and forming conflicts of interest within the player base. CCP is easily one of the most corrupt and unprofessional developing studios around.
You will have critics in any kind of business... Its the right of the buyer to critic the object of his desire as long he/she pays for it... Its the duty of the seller to hear it, knowing that there will be exagerations, and they DO NOT have the right to be ´hurt in his/her feelings´ and act on it. Its called risk of the business... I am an entrepeneaur too, I do hear a lot of complains of my job (mostly because of MY fault), and in the end of the day I think ´I am being paid for it, its the life I picked to live, therefore I will swallow the good critics and the bad critics...´ . Of course somethings are just unfair, but I have to live with that... After all I am gaining money with that and the one who is giving me his money have all the right to complain... Be it fair or not. They bought this right... However, I need to develop the maturity to know how to separete the things... Be polite, understanding and even false regarding of what I am feeling right now (I am not going to explode with my clients).
The Mythic thing of not wating to ´hurt´ their developers and therefore do not have a forum is somewhat laughable... They are not doing any favor to us, they are being PAID to develop a game that, even if we dont know what we do want, we do have the right to express it... I hope the Mythic suits mature to konow that the heart of his gme are not the butt hurt devs, but the player base....
" Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games."
Go to the Asheron's Call official forums and click on dev tracker. Not only do they listen, but they discuss and implement changes. Maybe in your world the developers don't listen but in the real world they do.
Listening doesn't mean agreeing, developers could listen to you all day long and not agree with the points you've tried to get across. That is where my initial post comes in, very few players have any clue how to get their points across. Instead of trying to have a discussion they start posts basically telling the devs they s uck and to change feature x. That will never get them to change something. But if you approach it by saying you disagree with a feature and here are reasons you think it should change you could actually start up a positive discussion which could bring in other players who share or disagree with the point of few and bring more light on the subject.
How many forums can you go to and see the filth that players spew towards the developers and then bitch that they aren't listened to?
And Nifa how can this possibly be the first time you've agreed with me, I post so many wonderfully correct things. :-)
I very much agree that increasing the understanding of what devs are faced with in the players and getting the devs back in touch with what it means to be a player (if they ever were in touch) are big elements here.
One thing developers are going to have to understand though, is that if they throw out the opinions of the entire community they throw out the good with the bad. Sure, you have to wade through a lot of misunderstanding, whining, trolling, etc but you also get real, useful feedback. A dev team that is really interested in producing a high quality game will understand how to pick the cherries out of the mud, and understand why it's wortth the effort.
I think the devs would do well to understand that if a person does blame them for something they shouldn't, it is about that person, not the devs, and his/her ignorance. Be understanding and don't take ingorance personally, and try to educate rather than get defensive.
Players - oh, man. Players, as individuals, need to take stock of themselves and understand the kind of attitude they are practically forcing on the devs. It is damn hard to keep a postive attitude and listen with an open mind when people are bombarding you with crap. Players need to seriously take a look at every post they make and ask themselves if they are trying to make a situation better or not. If not, I suggest you go beat up a pillow and scream at it awhile before you post if you are mad. Other players need to kick the jerks in the butt - don't let an outrageous post against devs or any part of the game company slide! The more of you that help to make being an ass unpopular, the less it will happen.
It will help devs to understand that many posts are made only for the purpose of blowing off steam, and certainly should not be taken personally. Devs should also have outlets for dumping their frustrations about players so they can get back to business with a fresh and open attitude.
Some forums have mediators whose business it is to interface between the 2. I think this ccan be a good idea - if you have someone who is cognizant of human behavior and can be less sensitive to it, then such a person can be a help. However, communication can be limited by such an individual too, because they edit too much, so that apporauch can also have its drawbacks.
A member of the dev team that is particualrly understanding of and responsive to the players is excellent - perhaps the team could be built from the beginning with such a person in mind.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
The trouble with your us and them approach is you forget that we are the paying customer and they are the company soliciting our business. The soloution is that these high and mighty developers need to realise that if they stomped their feet like children and ignored their customers and treated them like crap they'd be out of a job very fast.
Treat your customers like customers not like dirt and your business will get better, if not then tough luck and welcome to F2P with cash shop ville! We pay their wages, if we were not here to play their trash then they would be pumping gas or flipping burgers FACT!
We the customer are under no obligation to show them any respect or speak to them in a civil manner, if we don't like their crappy MMORPG then we stop paying them a monthly subscription to put food in their kids mouths. They are under no obligations to treat us with any respect or speak with us in a civil manner, however it could mean the difference between pumping gas or living a good lifestyle. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out who has the most to lose and gain in this, if they want to treat us like trash then fine but how many developers are working on WAR or AoC now compared to launch?
Besides 9/10 of the games made are total turds anyway and that's a fact, just hyped up crap where they tell us rubbish and at launch it's missing most of the features. They then claim they'll implement them soon and never do then complain about recieving abuse from angry customers! These developers are truly far more idiotic than I ever gave them credit for!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Funny because i think excatly the same about gamers grinding their teeth in nerd rage. Also i like your logic that even though devs and players are not under any obligation to give respect to eachother but somehow devs should take all the abuse because it would mean the difference between pumping gas and living good life style. Interesting, but sorry that is not how it works. Also my outlook on humanity is quite positive and i know that all gamers are not jerks. So if dev is getting abuse from some nerd he has a full right to reply back in any manner he likes. Respect goes both ways, if you can't take the heat why start the trouble? in such confrontation its usually the angry nerd who cries like a little girl after getting what he deserved from a game developer.
Because lets be honest here, most of these didgital tough guys wouldn't dare abuse anyone if it was real life situation. Anonymity of internet makes everyone a tough guy.
True most people wouldn't abuse someone personally in a pub the same way they would someone who works at burger king or tescos or an MMO developer, but that is the way life works. You want to stay in business being rude to your customers no matter how difficult doesn't help and that's a stone cold fact.
The developers want to help themselves then treat your customers with respect, why on earth should I treat a rude waiter with respect and keep coming back every month? I wouldn't, so the onus is on them if they want to stay in business. If you don't like that then fine but it is a fact.
You treat your customers well wether they are difficult or not, jerks or not it doesn't matter money is money. If a developer has hurt feelings then he needs to be the bigger man and suck it up like all other business people, take it out on the neighbours cat or do some sports I don't know, but taking it out on your paying customers is pretty stupid. Then they wonder why they're left with a crappy game an less than 10k subs!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
If you hand me a piece of crap in the store, try to sell me bs, I will tell you what you are saying in bs and that monster cable in your hand is crap. The only dev I have ever called out by name is Mr. Smart because he is a narcissist that needs to be called in some fashion or another. You are sadly mistaken if you think the only people on the forums of MMOS are "tough guys" or even just guys for that matter. Oh, and if you sold me garbage, I would also come back to your store, tell you you sold me garbage, and I want my money back. If you say no, you won't get it, then I will demand my money back, and if that doesn't work, hello chargeback. oh right, my mistake, the devs/pubs are so confident in their products they won't even offer refunds. Hmm, I can't imagine why players who get ripped off might release some steam in such a situation.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
The reason I have never gone to an event is because the wrong people attend them... Managers, Directors, and Marketing Suits. Seriously we the players are screwed up and always will be... but the otherside of this "relationship" has people in it that have no business, and I mean business, being a part of a MMOG Development Studio... Managers, Directors, and Marketing Suits. Just get rid of them all period. The MMOG I want to play (and do play) has only Delevopers and Artists in their Team, each with a spice of business training tossed in for good flavor. This makes an excellent MMOG.
Get the Players out of MMOG's that are trying to change it into another genre of gaming. Tell them to go to that genre instead of trying to change MMOGs into what they are not meant to be.
Get the Managers, Directors, and Marketing Suits out of the development studios. They can look for work somewhere else.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
The problem is multi layered and hinges on some basic flaws in the dev-player communication methods that are traditional.
First off if you have 10k people regularly posting on a forum it makes no sense to assume they all want the same thing. Also a good portion of the people posting on them wont be actual players but people who play the forum game ether on accounts that are not active or not theirs. Even forum systems that have learned and take steps to make sure posters have actual accounts are not fool proof and dedicated forum trolls can be pretty determined.
Then you have posters who like to pretend they are on the dev team and regularly pull things out of thin air to make an issue of. Its almost amusing to see a senseless post rally 10 pages of responses in a day or two but that being said think of the mental pay off for those who start them.
Forums are convenient and traditional but are really not a good way to judge what your paying player base wants. It may seem cumbersome but in game surveys will give you a much better idea of what is really going on inside the game community.
As for devs they are human too. One thing I think is a mistake is the trend of hiring people who are playing the game or have even grown up on it in some cases. This might seem like reverse thinking of what sounds like a good idea but in an MMO people play different aspects of the games and regardless of the type of MMO a certain amount of competitiveness influences how players feel about things. You wont purge those feelings by making some one a dev so why assume that the job some how makes a human unbiased. It would help a lot to lay out the balance that is desired in a game before bringing in too much influence from player devs and it might also help shore up professionalism to hire more types who are more professional than player.
Teamwork really helps in operations like this but like all things in nature it has a downside. The better a group works together the more likely they are to develop an us vs them attitude. Its just instinct and only when recognized and monitored can it be controlled.
I think that outlines of a game's vision that are kind of written in stone would help a lot. It may be fun to think of a game evolving like a real world but real worlds come with some nasty side effects of such evolution and you don't want that in a game world for profit industry. Add to that as the OP indicated more transparency with the player base so everyone involved can have a more clear understanding of what is supposed to happen and I think progress could be made.
I don't think abusive language towards developers is helpful or justifiable. At the same time, I can understand why it happens. Let's look at one real life example that led to perhaps some of the most angry posts in MMO history.
Players are told in dev chats that they'll be getting profession revamps. They get excited, they renew their subscriptions and then every single one of the professions promised a revamp gets deleted. Those people are going to be royally pissed.
Players are sold an expansion, and then the very next day they receive an announcement that many of the brand new, functional features in the expansion are going to be deleted or disabled in two weeks time. Those people are also going to be royally pissed.
People spend a year or more unlocking elite skill trees that are simply wiped from the game in one patch.
Should these gamers verbally abuse the developers? No, not in an ideal world. Some of them may have remarkable self-control. Others simply won't.
That's all really beside the point though isn't it? Developers, or more accurately MMO managers, shouldn't pull this kind of b.s. man. It's no surprise that players, in general, are becoming increasingly frustrated with MMO companies. What do we get from them? Promises that are unfulfilled or broken outright, new layers of fees that feel increasingly manipulative; and even when customers provide constructive criticism, companies hold up their EULA and say, "sorry when you clicked 'accept' you agreed to give us your money, and take whatever we decide to give you, regardless of what our marketting department has told you."
If this continues, I expect the frustration to continue to escalate. Encouraging people to play nice on the forums isn't the answer, imho.
P.S. This is only one set of examples from one game. I could list other games that treated their customers with comparable levels of apparent disregard. I don't have to know how MMO development works to know what it means to be treated with respect by someone who wants my business.
This is the problem, ain't it?
For the most part, developers need to be creative people. Whether they are in design, art or code... they need to be creative at their job to solve problems and make an entertaining product. And that's they key, it's a product. And because it's a product, you need someone in charge who knows how to run a studio, manage budgets, personnel, and take calls from this or that stockholder. And the vast majority of the time, these two skillsets do not appear in the same person.
So naturally, the guys good at running a business are in charge of the guys making the game.
Here's why it's a problem. Most people on the Business End in the game industry do play games. Think of them as your average WoW player. Your average WoW player thinks he's an expert in game design, but playing a game and being a good designer are two different things. Game design is an honest-to-God profession that requires years of experience designing games (rather than playing games) to be any good at it.
So what causes MMOs to fail is when the WoW-player-in-a-suit starts taking over the creative decision making process, because he's the boss, because he plays WoW, and therefore he knows better than the peons. And all his buddies in marketing agree with him. And this is why some of the best games come from indie studios, because often its a bunch of guys who are are talented at a gaming profession and the "acting-suit" is picked from within the ranks. Which is also why indie studios tend to have money problems and horrible business models, and problems meeting deadlines. So there needs to be balance between these two extremes.
But unfortunately large companies also have a lot of politics, which makes things more difficult. And politics plays a huge factor in terms of who gets put in charge (whereas in indie companies people tend to self-aggregrate and everyone is of similiar importance). At an indie company, you don't listen to Bob because he's the boss, but because he's actually the expert in that subject. And Bob can't really pull rank. At large companies, there's a lot of rank-pulling for whatever reason by people who think that being a boss implies they are the smartest person in the room.
So what's the solution? Companies (and to a large degree gamers) need to realize that Game Design is a profession, and requires both talent and experience, and that "I raid in WoW" is not a substitute for experience.
No, not the programmers. Programming is a science, not an art. Have you ever tried to debug art?
Creativity and style ruin programming.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yes, programmers need to be creative. Yes, programming for games is as much an art as a science. Also, stuff produced by the art team often does need to be debugged. I'm sorry but that's how it is.
I'm not very knowledgeable about the inner workings of game development but being familiar with representative slices of the MMO community makes me think that there really NEEDS to be some kind of buffer between MMO players and developers.
When I first heard that Mark Jacobs was NOT going to provide a company-sponsored site for discussion of Warhammer Online, I was pleased. The posts on discussion boards, in my opinion, consist of 98% garbage and 2% value. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want to have to slog through the cesspool of 98% to reach the 2% that might be useful.
The alternative of providing a robust feedback option in-game should be sufficient. Why shouldn't it be? Those who are sincerely concerned about a feature or game mechanic can click on the feedback button and write to their heart's content. Those who have nothing of legitimate value to offer will likely look elsewhere to fullfill their need for public entertainment and insult.
The down-side to this arrangement is that eventually there will be discussion board that arises to provide this outlet for the masses. And it is going to likely be a less moderated forum than the company would likely prefer to see. In order to counter this, I would simply provide a very clear statement that no comments, opinions, recommendations or criticism of the game will be even be reviewed or considered besides that which comes in from the feedback button. And perhaps I would offer an in-game incentive/reward for any player whose feedback actually has helped improve the game.
This system would not kill discussion boards but it might reduce the level of vitrol if players knew how truly pointless their public outcries were.
1 dev, 4 years ago, who has long since left.
"CCP is easily one of the most corrupt and unprofessional developing studios around."
Bbased on what, exactly? Please use facts in your answer.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Programming is based on science, but is more of an artform. Sorta like surgery or economics..