Clearly there is an over abundance of factions of mmo players here. We can paradigm them in many different ways. For this thread, there are the old school gamers and new age gamers. What I mean by this is, mmo players that played before 2004. And the new school are gamers who played 2004 and up.
For us the old school gamers who played UO, EQ, SWG, DaOC and AC to name a few, are you willing to play an mmo that goes back to the roots of the mmo philosphy of the old school design? Consider the following...
No instances, no quick travel, more incentives for grouping versus solo, a sense of adventure with immersion, community incentives and reputations, world pvp, diverse class design, diverse skill set design, challenge and to earn your spot in a guild and powerful items to just name a few.
However, with the old school philosphy of game design for mmos we can still implement new gameplay, graphics and immersion. I truly believe there is a niche market for this type playerbase. I haven't seen any new up coming title with these qualities of what mmorpgs are truly suppose to be.
So now I ask you, is there a playerbase willing to play an mmorpg, whether its themepark or sandbox or both with the old school mmo qualities with some new innovations? Please answer below.
The answer is yes but there is a problem, if you allow a shard or instance to go above a critical point then the critical mass of idiots gets to a point where they can ruin and harasss in game 24x7.
I am not sure developers can eben develop to the old standards as before 2004 we had MMOs that were games, now they aren't anything more than easy mode whack a mole barring a couple of exceptions which in effect adhere to pre 2004 methods.
There a re a lot of features people seem to expect in MMOs which unless there is a C change in thinking will never allow MMOs to be developed as they were. Just a couple are Auction Houses /Guilds/ Auto mail and trade all world community killers. Now the only content developed is quests and guild related elements which is in fact a very narrow spectrum of what these games should be. People have lost sight of this lending to what are mostly dire gaming experiences compared to the exitement experienced in the past.
Well, the game has to be developed for a challenge. A game that makes a player think. That is one factor that will draw away from these new age kiddy gamers. Solo needs to be an option but isn't encouraged as opposed to grouping. Forced grouping did wonders for EQ, but it had a down fall. I believe really the only time a player should solo is about 25% of ther time on the game and rest devoted to group play. I have this vision of what an mmorpg should truly be. I am diverse, complex and detailed which says that the budget on this game is going to be massive to do it right. Anyways, its just how the over all core game design can fit in to draw this certian niche of players.
For those who played EQ classic, East Commons Tunnel was a perfect community aspect that captivated the game. As a developer they need to learn from the classic mmos and improve on idea to a certain extent. With that in mind they need to still stay true to that aspect of game design.
Been gaming since 1982. I had a Pong Machine and an Atari 2600. I grew up playing games and whether I like it or not will always be compelled to playing games. I have seen alot come and go. I Have seen the movement of consoles from 8 bit to 16 to 32 to 64. Playstation was a huge hit for me before college. I stopped playing through college and got introduced to the PC where I found this game called Diablo. Played it online with many peeps and had a blast. Got hooked on Diablo 2 LOD until I lost my job because of the economic problems during the 9/11 attacks. After I built myself back up and had some spare time I got Hooked on WoW for roughly 4-5 years. Here I am today waiting for the next big thing.
As an older gamer, I have conformed and seen alot. Bringing back some "old skool" wouldnt hurt at all.
Bob
Thanks Bob for your post. I haven't been into this genre for long, since 2002 or so. I really don't believe the old school gamers are looking for will be the next big thing because the next big thing wants to kill wow. Which we seen in the pattern of newer mmos, it still has that "WoWish" module in some fashion. These devolopers want their revenue and will continue to conform it seams. I believe not all new titles will go this route, hopefully we'd see some good ones come out soon.
I have my doubts as to whether those who would like to play an "old school game" would play if for more than a few hours.
I think people have forgotten how tedious features were such as slow travel, massive grind for xp, heavy death penalties, camping the same area for hours, contested spawns, massive downtime waiting for health and power (mana) to regenerate, kill stealing, once only world changing events that you missed and did not experience because you were not online during that particular hour.
The gaming community has changed since the old school days. Many changes removed issues being caused by problem players.
For me, "old school" is early EQ. EQ was pve focused. The industry has a lot of new tools that have improved the game since early EQ.
Rather than ask for an "old school game", the definition of which lacks consensus, it is better to have features that best fit a particular game world.
I see you're point. I understand that EQ's gameplay and mechanics had a longer duration and could seem tedious to some. But you earned it. You earned everything in that game. I understand sometimes to obtain one item was ridiculous. But I think you may be missing the point what made the old school games legendary.
Are you sure the polling system is not broken?? I mean so many people say only two or three people want such a gaming style. Though I usually think when people say that, they are just too cheap to sub to more than one game even if they liked both and which were different. Nope, we need them all the same… oh wait, old school has more than two or three people voting on it. OMG, how can that BEEE?
In my opinion, the games of today are not some sort of freak aberration - they are an evolution of "old school" games. Many of the changes in design simply streamline some of the tedious, timesink style of gameplay so often found in older games. Unfortunately, those are some of the same elements that converged to create the feel of those early gameworlds - gameworlds, mind you, that had little competition back in those days.
Exactly. These old-school people seem to think that the entire universe stopped in 2004 and everything that has happened thereafter has been a step backwards. The reality is, the vast majority of players who started with UO or EQ or DAoC all moved on and are either playing WoW or other games today, or aren't playing at all. It's a ridiculous idea to think that the vast majority of former EQ players are sitting around dreaming about the return of EQ. It was a good game for it's time, like Pong was a good game for it's time, but times have changed and so, too, have the players. Modern games are the way they are because the majority of paying players WANT THEM THAT WAY! The reason games are no longer made with massive timesinks, absurd downtime and extreme difficulty is because the people who actually pay the bills don't want to play those games.
People need to get a grip and join reality.
Exactly. I was one of those. I played UO & EQ ... they can't hold a candle to WOW in terms of fun and good gaming experience. Those things some of these "old timers" want (camping for hours, waiting on a boat for 10 min, cramming into the same dungeon with 50 other people ...) are what we try to get AWAY from.
I won't return to such bad game designs even if I have nothing else to play.
Exactly. I was one of those. I played UO & EQ ... they can't hold a candle to WOW in terms of fun and good gaming experience. Those things some of these "old timers" want (camping for hours, waiting on a boat for 10 min, cramming into the same dungeon with 50 other people ...) are what we try to get AWAY from.
I won't return to such bad game designs even if I have nothing else to play.
err.. UO was not like that until AoS with champion spawns etc. Once the game went item based, it drove players to specific mobs/areas to get the item based loot that players could not advance without and only get from those locations. If you had millions in gold laying around, np, you just buy them. But just paying 10mil to be able to kill the same mobs that you were able to kill before was just a bad gimmick, and trying to camp the now high-traffic areas was not good. So then, yes, but before, no way.
Before then, if you didn't like the population in the area, you go to another area, you got basically the same loot chance. You could be pulling vanqs and all sorts of items, and be in a place with not a single player around if that is what you wanted.
I have my doubts as to whether those who would like to play an "old school game" would play if for more than a few hours.
I think people have forgotten how tedious features were such as slow travel, massive grind for xp, heavy death penalties, camping the same area for hours, contested spawns, massive downtime waiting for health and power (mana) to regenerate, kill stealing, once only world changing events that you missed and did not experience because you were not online during that particular hour.
The gaming community has changed since the old school days. Many changes removed issues being caused by problem players.
For me, "old school" is early EQ. EQ was pve focused. The industry has a lot of new tools that have improved the game since early EQ.
Rather than ask for an "old school game", the definition of which lacks consensus, it is better to have features that best fit a particular game world.
I see you're point. I understand that EQ's gameplay and mechanics had a longer duration and could seem tedious to some. But you earned it. You earned everything in that game. I understand sometimes to obtain one item was ridiculous. But I think you may be missing the point what made the old school games legendary.
1. Immersion
2. Adventure
3. Community
I had that old EQ feeling when I played Lord of the Rings Online. Immersion, adventure and community!
I did revisit EQ, but the people I played with had left and the new community is very different. The community has also changed in Lord of the Rings Online.
I disagree that my enjoyment or the way I felt about EQ and Lord of the RIngs online at the time I played has anthing to do with whether it was "old school".
People have many different opinions and beliefs and experiences....for me long runs, ksing, trains, conning, spawn camp brawls, sitting on a boat for 10 mins just to glitch n die and go on an epic corpse run before my corpse rotted.... all that jazz...that was fun to me. people like to troll because they have found what they are looking for...its easy to criticize flyin in the sky but when ye crash we will welcome ye as brothers clamoring for yer niche. id love a game that got back to the core of what i enjoyed (original eq, pre luclin, rallos zek pvp (ffa/friendly fire), within 4 levels of other player to pvp---also enjoyed pre tram uo and no level limit eq. [while I use to] agree they plateaued too sidedly with harassers I now stand neutral on the subject. also think the new competitive scenes could benefit from hard resets as opposed to soft)....all the vets are asking for is a challenging game with a community to support it (many different opinions on what that constitutes as well) which [was a niche] they had until all these new concepts ruined some, if not all, of that. there is obviously a playerbase but i do believe there is an issue with both populating a game like that and not having a new [player-base abuse it] with poor community ties while they bury the past with no remorse and wonder what [vets] are upset about. n how dare that one fool compare eq to pong, even in terms of progression thats just an absurd comparison lol.
Whether they want to accept it or not I personally think this is what the majority of old school gamers miss more than anything else from those days.
...and for better or worse those days are gone for good.
The thing about old school games though is that your reputation meant something. If you became known as a douche you would be virtually blacklisted by most players. Maybe this had something to do with 1 player per account, at least SWG since that was my first mmo starting in 6/03.
Exactly. I was one of those. I played UO & EQ ... they can't hold a candle to WOW in terms of fun and good gaming experience. Those things some of these "old timers" want (camping for hours, waiting on a boat for 10 min, cramming into the same dungeon with 50 other people ...) are what we try to get AWAY from.
I won't return to such bad game designs even if I have nothing else to play.
I understand your feelings, I hated the 10m shuttle waits in SWG. But at the same time that is also where I met a lot of my friends online in the early months of playing. My first toon for some reason was a pistoleer / ranger (yeah I had no clue at the time) and looking back on it, it was a horrible mechanic in leveling up my tents in the ranger tree, just sit in my camp!
I don't want those mechanics all over the game, but a select few locations would be nice, since those timesinks usually bring up interesting conversations but limit it.
The main thing as an old school player that I want is a 99% run player economy, with how popular the AH game is in WoW I still believe that is a huge mechanic that a lot of players want that they have not had in the last half decade.
In my opinion, the games of today are not some sort of freak aberration - they are an evolution of "old school" games. Many of the changes in design simply streamline some of the tedious, timesink style of gameplay so often found in older games. Unfortunately, those are some of the same elements that converged to create the feel of those early gameworlds - gameworlds, mind you, that had little competition back in those days.
Exactly. These old-school people seem to think that the entire universe stopped in 2004 and everything that has happened thereafter has been a step backwards. The reality is, the vast majority of players who started with UO or EQ or DAoC all moved on and are either playing WoW or other games today, or aren't playing at all. It's a ridiculous idea to think that the vast majority of former EQ players are sitting around dreaming about the return of EQ. It was a good game for it's time, like Pong was a good game for it's time, but times have changed and so, too, have the players. Modern games are the way they are because the majority of paying players WANT THEM THAT WAY! The reason games are no longer made with massive timesinks, absurd downtime and extreme difficulty is because the people who actually pay the bills don't want to play those games.
People need to get a grip and join reality.
Exactly? What I miss is the days when this kind of attitude wasnt prevelant. I could give a rats ass about technical aspects of an MMO. Its the spoiled kids with a huge sense of self entitlement that turns me off.
Back in the day MMOs were mostly played by bookworm type nerds who found EQ to be a nerds paradise. Now theyre full of chest beating, impatient, mewling kids.
The reality is MMOs arent MMOs anymore, theyre console games with chat boxes included. Again I could care less about the games themselves. What I miss is the community. Too many of todays kids grow up with the internet and it retards their social development in my opinion. I meet more childish asses in 1 day in todays MMOs than I met the entire 6 years I played EQ.
not getting paid to babysit other peoples kids isnt my idea of fun.
Whether they want to accept it or not I personally think this is what the majority of old school gamers miss more than anything else from those days.
...and for better or worse those days are gone for good.
The thing about old school games though is that your reputation meant something. If you became known as a douche you would be virtually blacklisted by most players. Maybe this had something to do with 1 player per account, at least SWG since that was my first mmo starting in 6/03.
This is true, most people with their d00d speak, and their chuck norris jokes wouldnt have lasted a week in EQ before they found themselves a sad little puppy with no friends.
arguin about this is like arguin if god exists....its pointless people have different opinions and beliefs and experiences....for me long runs, ksing, trains, conning, spawn camp brawls, sitting on boats for 10 mins just to glitch n die and go on epic corpse run before corpse rotted n all that jazz...that was fun to me. people like to troll cause they found what they lookin for...its easy to criticize flyin in the sky but when ye crash we will welcome ye as brothers clamoring for yer niche. id love a game that got back to the core of what i enjoyed (original eq, pre luclin, rallos zek pvp (ffa), within 4 levels of other player to pvp---also enjoyed pre tram uo but agree it plateud too sidedly with harassers)....all the vets are askin for is a challenging game with a community to support it (many different opinions on what that constitutes as well) which is what we had til all these new concepts ruined our idea of a good time. there is obviously a playerbase but i do believe there is an issue with both populating a game like that and having this new generation screw it over with poor community ties. n how dare thatt one fool compare eq to pong, even in terms of progression thats just an absurd comparison.
Very true. Another thing Id like to point out is that as easy as games are today, I could care less about my characters, theyre as disposable as hamburger wrappers. My first EQ characters on the other hand, I can tell you what level they were, race, what weapons they had etc etc. Now a days I have a hard time remembering what I even named characters in game.
Theres no real reward for accomplishment anymore, no prestige, no real reason to give a rats patoot about any game. Who really cares what people do in todays games, theyre not accomplishing anything of note.
Exactly. I was one of those. I played UO & EQ ... they can't hold a candle to WOW in terms of fun and good gaming experience. Those things some of these "old timers" want (camping for hours, waiting on a boat for 10 min, cramming into the same dungeon with 50 other people ...) are what we try to get AWAY from.
I won't return to such bad game designs even if I have nothing else to play.
I understand your feelings, I hated the 10m shuttle waits in SWG. But at the same time that is also where I met a lot of my friends online in the early months of playing. My first toon for some reason was a pistoleer / ranger (yeah I had no clue at the time) and looking back on it, it was a horrible mechanic in leveling up my tents in the ranger tree, just sit in my camp!
I don't want those mechanics all over the game, but a select few locations would be nice, since those timesinks usually bring up interesting conversations but limit it.
The main thing as an old school player that I want is a 99% run player economy, with how popular the AH game is in WoW I still believe that is a huge mechanic that a lot of players want that they have not had in the last half decade.
i think Aion was honestly trying to merg the old school and newer mmo styles but they missed the mark in the more important places. like they had open outdoor dungeons with long spawn timers on bosses,and rare named mobs in random places (camped one for almost a week before i got him to drop the blue tunic i wanted) but also had instances to run. if it had been a classic group grind the leveling and focused more on PVE it would have been much more enjoyable imo.
but i do think there is deffinitly a market for us, but as others have said it will only ever be an indy company to ever even try it.
Personally I think that the problem lies with the MMO Devs, they seem to have created a new breed of Online Game instead of bringing "older" games to the new market.
How many old games are being "discovered" by the new ipod/mobile crowd?
Besides, the old games lacked the technology to continue into the new market, simply re creating the wheel and skipping the base principles, Devs are the idiots who try and sell the latest piece of crap to the market and those out there change MMO as much as the phones.
So all one needs to do is understand why we enjoyed those old games and how their elements can be included into the new style of game. I guess what I'm seeing and saying is that the market is sick of the WoW clones, and everything is FPS these days.
Even the strategy or RTS games of late give up alot of gameplay to allow the latest technology to be shown off and then they have the gaul to justify 20min gameplay length, just look at RUSE nuff said.
I keep going back to games that are 10 years old, and am still waiting for something to multiplayer/online that has the same dynamics and enjoyment.
Another factor is that the business has sold itself to the F2P system, and by that statement I'm talking about the statistics that show signups rather than actual continuity of the player base. If I was an investor in this industry I too would be looking at real estate instead because at least in the end you have something real and not a string of bullshit lies and bogus figures!
I definately think that this industry has called WOLF one too many times, so instead of being just another Peter, change the way you do things and get some balls and make something worth our time let alone our subs!
For us the old school gamers who played UO, EQ, SWG, DaOC and AC to name a few, are you willing to play an mmo that goes back to the roots of the mmo philosphy of the old school design? Consider the following...
No instances, no quick travel, more incentives for grouping versus solo, a sense of adventure with immersion, community incentives and reputations, world pvp, diverse class design, diverse skill set design, challenge and to earn your spot in a guild and powerful items to just name a few.
I'm surprised that no-one has pointed out the contradictions in the OP.
UO had instances (Trammel?) as did SWG (Corellian Corvette?).
UO had instant travel (Recall?) as did SWG (Shuttles?)
UO was very soloable, as was SWG.
You're not really talking about "old school games", you're talking about specific games like EQ.
I joined the genre in 1999 with UO and I hated EQ with a passion. I like instancing; it solves more problems than it creates. I abhor travelling timesinks. I like to be able to solo when I don't want to/can't find a group and bear in mind that I'm an old school gamer too. And I prefer newer MMOs.
While it might be impossible for a major title to duplicate the success of Blizzard/WOW, it is far more likely that an indie Dev house will duplicate what CCP did with EVE and we do have a reasonable chance of getting a successful game built one day with more "old school" mechanics. (there are several underway right now in fact).
But the thing to keep in mind, when EVE first came out it was slammed hard for being buggy, incomplete and had a sub base well under 50K.
But the failthful stuck with it, and the gamee now enjoys over 300K subs (whether or not its the same 50K people with 6 accts is irrelevant)
The real question is does today's old school gamer have the patience to wait until such a gamee matures or do we expect them to have the polish and features of a AAA or mature indie title? That's what's going to determine whether we ever get a game with some of the better features from the early games (minus the more regressive ones) and it ends up a success.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The real question is does today's old school gamer have the patience to wait until such a gamee matures or do we expect them to have the polish and features of a AAA or mature indie title? That's what's going to determine whether we ever get a game with some of the better features from the early games (minus the more regressive ones) and it ends up a success.
I think it's more, "Why the hell should we pay AAA price for sub Z-rated games. Maybe they should look at lowering the starting cost and when it's made properly or ironed out, then we could pay normal costs.
I will never pay for an MMO with the state of the playfield, WoW and EvE are the supposed pinicles, I beg to differ!
I even went as far as trying Mortal Online as I wastn't worried about graphics, the game is so underdeveloped I wouldn't even call it a computer game, it's more of a Cinematic Storyboard with blank pages!
Whether they want to accept it or not I personally think this is what the majority of old school gamers miss more than anything else from those days.
...and for better or worse those days are gone for good.
I'm afraidn you're right. With the "kids" playing old-school type games, doesn't do the community any good. Most of these "kids" tend to have an arcade kind of play-style where they want to hit cap ASAP and best solo if possible
But we'll see a test of an old-school type of game soon. From what I can make of it, TERA will be pretty old-school, where cooperation and community are center part of the game. Okay, the game will be westernized a bit, but I still thikn it'll be more old-school than anything we've seen recently...
The game is NOT finished. Do not think you find a free trial or anything. Don't blame the bugs - its a beta, its normal. Don't make it shit like MO and ruin it.
The real question is does today's old school gamer have the patience to wait until such a gamee matures or do we expect them to have the polish and features of a AAA or mature indie title? That's what's going to determine whether we ever get a game with some of the better features from the early games (minus the more regressive ones) and it ends up a success.
I think it's more, "Why the hell should we pay AAA price for sub Z-rated games. Maybe they should look at lowering the starting cost and when it's made properly or ironed out, then we could pay normal costs.
I will never pay for an MMO with the state of the playfield, WoW and EvE are the supposed pinicles, I beg to differ!
I even went as far as trying Mortal Online as I wastn't worried about graphics, the game is so underdeveloped I wouldn't even call it a computer game, it's more of a Cinematic Storyboard with blank pages!
I think this is an excellent idea, it would make the player base far more forgiving if a game came out perhaps not fully fleshed out, but only charging 4.99 per month until they can get more features incorporated and the game more polished.
Matter of economics I suppose, by time most games launch, they are pretty desperate for cash and perhaps they fear once the price mark is set at a lower value, players, will never accept an increase in price.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont really think there is a market anymore for what you are suggesting. The reason for this is that I think many people got tired of MMOs for just those reasons.
I didnt really play any of those games you said. But I played Final Fantasy XI for several years and that game took a huge amount of time getting somewhere in. And what you are saying about for example, no fast traveling, would also take alot of time. And that time could be alot better used playing with your friends instead of just traveling.
I dont say a game should be "too" easy, like World of Warcraft. But a game will feel worthless after a while if you have to put alot of time into doing "useless" stuff.
Overall I think MMOs need to develop further. The grinding-type of game isnt working anymore, at least not for me. Final Fantasy XIV seems to change alot of the old stuff and will be my next choice of game. Before that I will put time into All Points Bulletin that I think seems fun :P
I have my doubts as to whether those who would like to play an "old school game" would play if for more than a few hours.
I think people have forgotten how tedious features were such as slow travel, massive grind for xp, heavy death penalties, camping the same area for hours, contested spawns, massive downtime waiting for health and power (mana) to regenerate, kill stealing, once only world changing events that you missed and did not experience because you were not online during that particular hour.
The gaming community has changed since the old school days. Many changes removed issues being caused by problem players.
For me, "old school" is early EQ. EQ was pve focused. The industry has a lot of new tools that have improved the game since early EQ.
Rather than ask for an "old school game", the definition of which lacks consensus, it is better to have features that best fit a particular game world.
I see you're point. I understand that EQ's gameplay and mechanics had a longer duration and could seem tedious to some. But you earned it. You earned everything in that game. I understand sometimes to obtain one item was ridiculous. But I think you may be missing the point what made the old school games legendary.
1. Immersion
2. Adventure
3. Community
immersion, adventure, community, and ill also add a great economy in the game, that would be the GAME. sign me up
live long and prosper strength and honor
if urgent do it yourself if you have time-delegate it if you have forever-form a committee
The real question is does today's old school gamer have the patience to wait until such a gamee matures or do we expect them to have the polish and features of a AAA or mature indie title? That's what's going to determine whether we ever get a game with some of the better features from the early games (minus the more regressive ones) and it ends up a success.
I think it's more, "Why the hell should we pay AAA price for sub Z-rated games. Maybe they should look at lowering the starting cost and when it's made properly or ironed out, then we could pay normal costs.
I will never pay for an MMO with the state of the playfield, WoW and EvE are the supposed pinicles, I beg to differ!
I even went as far as trying Mortal Online as I wastn't worried about graphics, the game is so underdeveloped I wouldn't even call it a computer game, it's more of a Cinematic Storyboard with blank pages!
I think this is an excellent idea, it would make the player base far more forgiving if a game came out perhaps not fully fleshed out, but only charging 4.99 per month until they can get more features incorporated and the game more polished.
Matter of economics I suppose, by time most games launch, they are pretty desperate for cash and perhaps they fear once the price mark is set at a lower value, players, will never accept an increase in price.
Economics is half the point. Better to take EvE Online's approach, spend less to start with and build the player base instead of spending millions live Mythic-EA and telling us what's in the game, we go buy it and find it totally untrue.
If that trend continues there will be no devs of tomorrow because who will believe all the hype?
Hell there was even talk from a guy from Valve about community funded games, well in a way that's the idies. Yet when did we ever get a game website "really" giving us a look at the indie scene. It all smells of a rat to me either way, that's why I gave up on buying gaming magazines or even trying to see what was coming out for the PC.
Now if we only had Red Dead Redemtion for the PC, and for the record, I ain't a western fan but it is a good example of what the MMO Industry needs more of. Simply a good game.
Comments
Well, the game has to be developed for a challenge. A game that makes a player think. That is one factor that will draw away from these new age kiddy gamers. Solo needs to be an option but isn't encouraged as opposed to grouping. Forced grouping did wonders for EQ, but it had a down fall. I believe really the only time a player should solo is about 25% of ther time on the game and rest devoted to group play. I have this vision of what an mmorpg should truly be. I am diverse, complex and detailed which says that the budget on this game is going to be massive to do it right. Anyways, its just how the over all core game design can fit in to draw this certian niche of players.
For those who played EQ classic, East Commons Tunnel was a perfect community aspect that captivated the game. As a developer they need to learn from the classic mmos and improve on idea to a certain extent. With that in mind they need to still stay true to that aspect of game design.
Thanks Bob for your post. I haven't been into this genre for long, since 2002 or so. I really don't believe the old school gamers are looking for will be the next big thing because the next big thing wants to kill wow. Which we seen in the pattern of newer mmos, it still has that "WoWish" module in some fashion. These devolopers want their revenue and will continue to conform it seams. I believe not all new titles will go this route, hopefully we'd see some good ones come out soon.
I see you're point. I understand that EQ's gameplay and mechanics had a longer duration and could seem tedious to some. But you earned it. You earned everything in that game. I understand sometimes to obtain one item was ridiculous. But I think you may be missing the point what made the old school games legendary.
1. Immersion
2. Adventure
3. Community
Are you sure the polling system is not broken?? I mean so many people say only two or three people want such a gaming style. Though I usually think when people say that, they are just too cheap to sub to more than one game even if they liked both and which were different. Nope, we need them all the same… oh wait, old school has more than two or three people voting on it. OMG, how can that BEEE?
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Exactly. I was one of those. I played UO & EQ ... they can't hold a candle to WOW in terms of fun and good gaming experience. Those things some of these "old timers" want (camping for hours, waiting on a boat for 10 min, cramming into the same dungeon with 50 other people ...) are what we try to get AWAY from.
I won't return to such bad game designs even if I have nothing else to play.
err.. UO was not like that until AoS with champion spawns etc. Once the game went item based, it drove players to specific mobs/areas to get the item based loot that players could not advance without and only get from those locations. If you had millions in gold laying around, np, you just buy them. But just paying 10mil to be able to kill the same mobs that you were able to kill before was just a bad gimmick, and trying to camp the now high-traffic areas was not good. So then, yes, but before, no way.
Before then, if you didn't like the population in the area, you go to another area, you got basically the same loot chance. You could be pulling vanqs and all sorts of items, and be in a place with not a single player around if that is what you wanted.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I had that old EQ feeling when I played Lord of the Rings Online. Immersion, adventure and community!
I did revisit EQ, but the people I played with had left and the new community is very different. The community has also changed in Lord of the Rings Online.
I disagree that my enjoyment or the way I felt about EQ and Lord of the RIngs online at the time I played has anthing to do with whether it was "old school".
People have many different opinions and beliefs and experiences....for me long runs, ksing, trains, conning, spawn camp brawls, sitting on a boat for 10 mins just to glitch n die and go on an epic corpse run before my corpse rotted.... all that jazz...that was fun to me. people like to troll because they have found what they are looking for...its easy to criticize flyin in the sky but when ye crash we will welcome ye as brothers clamoring for yer niche. id love a game that got back to the core of what i enjoyed (original eq, pre luclin, rallos zek pvp (ffa/friendly fire), within 4 levels of other player to pvp---also enjoyed pre tram uo and no level limit eq. [while I use to] agree they plateaued too sidedly with harassers I now stand neutral on the subject. also think the new competitive scenes could benefit from hard resets as opposed to soft)....all the vets are asking for is a challenging game with a community to support it (many different opinions on what that constitutes as well) which [was a niche] they had until all these new concepts ruined some, if not all, of that. there is obviously a playerbase but i do believe there is an issue with both populating a game like that and not having a new [player-base abuse it] with poor community ties while they bury the past with no remorse and wonder what [vets] are upset about. n how dare that one fool compare eq to pong, even in terms of progression thats just an absurd comparison lol.
The thing about old school games though is that your reputation meant something. If you became known as a douche you would be virtually blacklisted by most players. Maybe this had something to do with 1 player per account, at least SWG since that was my first mmo starting in 6/03.
I understand your feelings, I hated the 10m shuttle waits in SWG. But at the same time that is also where I met a lot of my friends online in the early months of playing. My first toon for some reason was a pistoleer / ranger (yeah I had no clue at the time) and looking back on it, it was a horrible mechanic in leveling up my tents in the ranger tree, just sit in my camp!
I don't want those mechanics all over the game, but a select few locations would be nice, since those timesinks usually bring up interesting conversations but limit it.
The main thing as an old school player that I want is a 99% run player economy, with how popular the AH game is in WoW I still believe that is a huge mechanic that a lot of players want that they have not had in the last half decade.
Exactly? What I miss is the days when this kind of attitude wasnt prevelant. I could give a rats ass about technical aspects of an MMO. Its the spoiled kids with a huge sense of self entitlement that turns me off.
Back in the day MMOs were mostly played by bookworm type nerds who found EQ to be a nerds paradise. Now theyre full of chest beating, impatient, mewling kids.
The reality is MMOs arent MMOs anymore, theyre console games with chat boxes included. Again I could care less about the games themselves. What I miss is the community. Too many of todays kids grow up with the internet and it retards their social development in my opinion. I meet more childish asses in 1 day in todays MMOs than I met the entire 6 years I played EQ.
not getting paid to babysit other peoples kids isnt my idea of fun.
This is true, most people with their d00d speak, and their chuck norris jokes wouldnt have lasted a week in EQ before they found themselves a sad little puppy with no friends.
Very true. Another thing Id like to point out is that as easy as games are today, I could care less about my characters, theyre as disposable as hamburger wrappers. My first EQ characters on the other hand, I can tell you what level they were, race, what weapons they had etc etc. Now a days I have a hard time remembering what I even named characters in game.
Theres no real reward for accomplishment anymore, no prestige, no real reason to give a rats patoot about any game. Who really cares what people do in todays games, theyre not accomplishing anything of note.
i think Aion was honestly trying to merg the old school and newer mmo styles but they missed the mark in the more important places. like they had open outdoor dungeons with long spawn timers on bosses,and rare named mobs in random places (camped one for almost a week before i got him to drop the blue tunic i wanted) but also had instances to run. if it had been a classic group grind the leveling and focused more on PVE it would have been much more enjoyable imo.
but i do think there is deffinitly a market for us, but as others have said it will only ever be an indy company to ever even try it.
Personally I think that the problem lies with the MMO Devs, they seem to have created a new breed of Online Game instead of bringing "older" games to the new market.
How many old games are being "discovered" by the new ipod/mobile crowd?
Besides, the old games lacked the technology to continue into the new market, simply re creating the wheel and skipping the base principles, Devs are the idiots who try and sell the latest piece of crap to the market and those out there change MMO as much as the phones.
So all one needs to do is understand why we enjoyed those old games and how their elements can be included into the new style of game. I guess what I'm seeing and saying is that the market is sick of the WoW clones, and everything is FPS these days.
Even the strategy or RTS games of late give up alot of gameplay to allow the latest technology to be shown off and then they have the gaul to justify 20min gameplay length, just look at RUSE nuff said.
I keep going back to games that are 10 years old, and am still waiting for something to multiplayer/online that has the same dynamics and enjoyment.
Another factor is that the business has sold itself to the F2P system, and by that statement I'm talking about the statistics that show signups rather than actual continuity of the player base. If I was an investor in this industry I too would be looking at real estate instead because at least in the end you have something real and not a string of bullshit lies and bogus figures!
I definately think that this industry has called WOLF one too many times, so instead of being just another Peter, change the way you do things and get some balls and make something worth our time let alone our subs!
I'm surprised that no-one has pointed out the contradictions in the OP.
UO had instances (Trammel?) as did SWG (Corellian Corvette?).
UO had instant travel (Recall?) as did SWG (Shuttles?)
UO was very soloable, as was SWG.
You're not really talking about "old school games", you're talking about specific games like EQ.
I joined the genre in 1999 with UO and I hated EQ with a passion. I like instancing; it solves more problems than it creates. I abhor travelling timesinks. I like to be able to solo when I don't want to/can't find a group and bear in mind that I'm an old school gamer too. And I prefer newer MMOs.
While it might be impossible for a major title to duplicate the success of Blizzard/WOW, it is far more likely that an indie Dev house will duplicate what CCP did with EVE and we do have a reasonable chance of getting a successful game built one day with more "old school" mechanics. (there are several underway right now in fact).
But the thing to keep in mind, when EVE first came out it was slammed hard for being buggy, incomplete and had a sub base well under 50K.
But the failthful stuck with it, and the gamee now enjoys over 300K subs (whether or not its the same 50K people with 6 accts is irrelevant)
The real question is does today's old school gamer have the patience to wait until such a gamee matures or do we expect them to have the polish and features of a AAA or mature indie title? That's what's going to determine whether we ever get a game with some of the better features from the early games (minus the more regressive ones) and it ends up a success.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think it's more, "Why the hell should we pay AAA price for sub Z-rated games. Maybe they should look at lowering the starting cost and when it's made properly or ironed out, then we could pay normal costs.
I will never pay for an MMO with the state of the playfield, WoW and EvE are the supposed pinicles, I beg to differ!
I even went as far as trying Mortal Online as I wastn't worried about graphics, the game is so underdeveloped I wouldn't even call it a computer game, it's more of a Cinematic Storyboard with blank pages!
I'm afraidn you're right. With the "kids" playing old-school type games, doesn't do the community any good. Most of these "kids" tend to have an arcade kind of play-style where they want to hit cap ASAP and best solo if possible
But we'll see a test of an old-school type of game soon. From what I can make of it, TERA will be pretty old-school, where cooperation and community are center part of the game. Okay, the game will be westernized a bit, but I still thikn it'll be more old-school than anything we've seen recently...
Check out newest UO-MMO in 3D
www.Dawntide.net
Still in beta - open beta later this week.
The game is NOT finished. Do not think you find a free trial or anything. Don't blame the bugs - its a beta, its normal. Don't make it shit like MO and ruin it.
I just wanted to show you guys this.
I think this is an excellent idea, it would make the player base far more forgiving if a game came out perhaps not fully fleshed out, but only charging 4.99 per month until they can get more features incorporated and the game more polished.
Matter of economics I suppose, by time most games launch, they are pretty desperate for cash and perhaps they fear once the price mark is set at a lower value, players, will never accept an increase in price.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There arent that many old schoolers to begin with and most of them want something completely different since they come from a few games originally.
So is there a market? not a big enough one to warrant a AAA dev to create a game for them.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I dont really think there is a market anymore for what you are suggesting. The reason for this is that I think many people got tired of MMOs for just those reasons.
I didnt really play any of those games you said. But I played Final Fantasy XI for several years and that game took a huge amount of time getting somewhere in. And what you are saying about for example, no fast traveling, would also take alot of time. And that time could be alot better used playing with your friends instead of just traveling.
I dont say a game should be "too" easy, like World of Warcraft. But a game will feel worthless after a while if you have to put alot of time into doing "useless" stuff.
Overall I think MMOs need to develop further. The grinding-type of game isnt working anymore, at least not for me. Final Fantasy XIV seems to change alot of the old stuff and will be my next choice of game. Before that I will put time into All Points Bulletin that I think seems fun :P
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Economics is half the point. Better to take EvE Online's approach, spend less to start with and build the player base instead of spending millions live Mythic-EA and telling us what's in the game, we go buy it and find it totally untrue.
If that trend continues there will be no devs of tomorrow because who will believe all the hype?
Hell there was even talk from a guy from Valve about community funded games, well in a way that's the idies. Yet when did we ever get a game website "really" giving us a look at the indie scene. It all smells of a rat to me either way, that's why I gave up on buying gaming magazines or even trying to see what was coming out for the PC.
Now if we only had Red Dead Redemtion for the PC, and for the record, I ain't a western fan but it is a good example of what the MMO Industry needs more of. Simply a good game.