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Why a Space MMO is not a good idea.
Vestige360
Member Posts: 27
Don't get me wrong, I love the Sci-Fi genre. But I think there is a problem that many space MMOs don't seem to be able to address. A seamless traveling experience.
Most fantasy based games focus on one planet and often one or two continents. They are able to really flesh out these locations with a lot of detail.
In the World of WarCraft and other fantasy based MMOs a player can travel from the northern tip of a continent to the southern tip, from city to city, inside and outside of buildings without a load screen.
When you first start playing these games the world seems limitless and there are very few barriers as to where you can’t go.
In a space MMO the environment is blown way up and gets stretched out across a star system or galaxy.
Suddenly the zones are now each planet or the inside of a space station or ship. Traveling between zones usually involves moving between instances. The world isn’t one big seamless place anymore. It’s just a bunch of interconnected instances. All of sudden you feel very limited. Often traveling between planets is on rails or limited in some way.
It’s very hard to delivery an experience where you board a ship, fly into space and land on another planet without some sort of load screen.
I think the best MMOs will be those that focus on smaller areas that can be given a lot of detail.
Imagine an MMO that took place in just one really big city where you could travel everywhere without any load screens.
That is the only reason I see SWTOR not doing as well as well as WoW. Just because of this one limitation. They would have been better off making a Coruscant MMO.
Comments
Haha before WoW, Star Wars Galaxies was one of the biggest MMO's with a space flight expansion. It did well until SOE took over. And you haven't played EVE I take it? Hands down best MMO out there.
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I really don't see the problem. going from Northrend or even into outland required loading, even jumping from kalimdor to the eastern kingdoms. how does jumping from these large areas differ from say going from a continent to space? your just loading from one area to another. I think space MMo's have the greatest potential to be the best games because of so much unknown with so many planets, and the thrill of investigating dead space stations. For me at least i find it more exciting then opening yet another portal to another plane , which in essence i guess is just the same as planet hopping
I've played Mass Effect 2 so I know what the experience is going to be like. Not that Mass Effect 2 is a bad game or wasn't enjoyable but the world seemed smaller than World of Warcraft which is sort of my point. World of Warcraft is physically a smaller place than the Masss Effect Galaxy.
Playable locations are not seamlessly tied together into one experience. And I think it adds A LOT when they are.
Dont tell CCP that with EVE. They might not realize they have one of the most successful mmo's, growing over 7-years to out-perform most AAA studio mmorpg's in the market.
http://www.infinity-universe.com/
The game is as good as the rig you play it on.
Right now I don't think we would see a space flight/infantry combat MMO with the tech as of the moment. However streamlining the instances so it would seem seamless would create the same feel.
From what I know so far, Infinity: Quest For Earth is in development and they have a seamless space/planet transition. Though their combat prototype is released to showcase the graphics and physics.
Though you're right, the games should focus more in small maps but try to optimize for player interaction from map to map.
I agree that focus shouldn't be too widespread when developing an MMO. However, the developers must not forget that the customer is expecting certain things. Therefore just providing the player with 1 or 2 space systems to player around in will not necessarily be enough.
So, it comes down to what the customer should be reasonably expecting vs what the developer needs to provide in order to meet the minimum level of expectations.
This same principle also applies somewhat to land based MMO's. Though developing a "Coruscant MMO" may be considered to the devs as a way of focusing their efforts in one area, on the other hand it would probably be considered boring from a player perspective. Why? Because people expect a certain degree of variation in environments. And whilst they may enjoy Coruscant for a while, they will want to go somewhere that ISN'T Coruscant e.g. Tatooine.
Again, its a case of balancing the customers expectations with what the developer can provide.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
"until SOE took over"? You do realise that SOE always owned SWG don't you?
Personally speaking I found SWG-Pre CU to be pretty boring from a PVE perspective, but I do appreciate that it had good elements for pvp, crafting and the economy.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I gotta agree with these points. Really, SWG did not make me feel limited at all (speaking of Pre-CU). I was able to travel a whole planet without loading screens. There was a transition to space, but I could fly to a planets moon or jump (to lightspeed even) to another planet and explore that. Where I could explore was only really limited in some areas by terrain, but I don't even recall that being a significant issue (since you could basically walk up a cliff without an issue).
Otherwise, as mentioned, there is EvE. It has transitions to between zones that take a couple seconds really. It's not seamless, but as there is a lore based explanation, it certainly isn't immersion breaking.
Regarding WoW, this is not seamless either. I mean, how many instances do you zone into? When flying from anywhere to Silvermoon City, you also zone between EPL and Ghostlands. You zone to Outland. WoW is far from seamless, though I don't think that necessarily detracts from the game.
edit: typos
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Again: EVE...
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WoW is also a relatively small gameworld compared to some other MMOs. Additonally, it isn't all the seamless either. There's still loading screens between continents, which would be akin to loading between planets anyways. Besides, WoW is riddled with instances, which by definition, are not seamless.
The trick is the use of perceptions and illusions.
Eve hides the loading of areas behind the wormholes / hyperspace gateways. Plus its server architecture design is somewhat different to the likes of AOC and EQ2. WoW has a "somewhat" seamless world (ignoring the instances) and even though it isn't entirely seamless many people are comfortable with it.
Will SWTOR have many zones stitched together by loading screens for each planet (excluding the dungon instances themselves)? We aren't sure right now.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Lol EvE has half second loading screens because there is one server with over 50k ppl on at a time. WoW world isn't that big. When you're on a mount thats a set path and there is a loading screen going on underneath it. Instancing and Pvp area's make up a lot of the games "area" and those are loaded zones.
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I find this part of your argument to be more than a little disingenuous. Just because you find the Mass Effect 2 world to be smaller than the world in WoW has little to do with a space MMORPG experience since Mass Effect 2 is a single player game and not really meant to be played with a mass number of people in any given area. Now, if you actually compared WoW to an actual space MMORPG and could use something in them for your arguments, you might be able to argue something, but you don't have anything to work with here.
Besides, it's a little late to say it's not a good idea when several of them have already been made with varying success. And in the end, whether it's a good idea or not has a lot to do with what the target audience is and wants.
In Wildness is the Preservation of the World
So Seek the Wolf in Thyself
BioWare made Mass Effect 2 and is making SWTOR. I'd be willing to bet many aspects of the Mass Effect game will make it into SWTOR. If BioWare hadn't secured the rights to Star Wars we'd probably be seeing a Mass Effect MMO instead.
We have already heard that the dialog system is being carried over.
There have been some successful space based MMOs. Eve being one of them. But I'm talking about a WoW killer. I just think that seamless world environments is a secret sauce that MMOs need to have to do well. And the larger your physical environment is the harder it is to pull off.
Now having said all of that, Blizzard's next MMO is going to be sci-fi based so we'll see. And I am excited about SWTOR.
My favorite MMORPG was Star Wars Galaxies, but not sure why you bring that game up, since it had/has the issue OP is discussing about......."Loadscreen", happend when you travel to another planet, happend when you go out in space.
Also SWG was in who's hands before SOE took over?? Never new SOE took over their own game, or was it meant as in when SOE changed things, which they could do being the publisher and developers of SWG regardless it's outcome.
OP: I still hope one day we can have a world/space MMORPG, where there is actual lift-off from a planet into space without the hinder of a loadscreen, I am sure tech will get there some day, don't know tech is up to it right now in the MMORPG genre.
From the games I have played only SPORE comes to mind that has that type of of lift-off without loading screens.
In all fairness, there has not been a fantasy based WoW-killer so why single out space based games? Also, as pointed out, WoW is far from seamless. Taking words from your first post, you cannot walk from the northern tip of the Eastern Kingdoms, to the southern tip without zoning. Additionally, tools like the Dungeon Finder, while convenient, take away a lot a lot of travel through those parts of the world that are seamless by placing you right in the dungeon from wherever you are queued.
So, apparently seamless world environments are not the secret sauce. If you are speaking specifically about a WoW-killer, there have been numerous threads that try to distill why it worked so well.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Actually, you CAN travel from the northern tip of eastern kingdoms to the southern tip without zoning. I've done it myself many times. Its only when you cross to the other continent or to the expansion areas is when you get a loading screen (excluding the dungeon loading screens that is).
In the end its the perception of what the individual finds acceptable that what matters. Some don't mind the EQ2 / AOC stitched together zones, whereas others constantly look for a more seamless world (but not completely seamless one) like WoW. I will admit that for me, it is nice to have a WoW-like world in respect to the amount of loading screens. But that's just my opinion.
Many different factors can dictate just how many loading screens are seen, it isn't just down to the whim of the devs. Its possible that SWTOR's lack of dependence on "realstic" graphics allows them more freedom in terms of creating larger areas without seams. Right now, only they will know for sure.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
In EQ2 they instance to combat lag.
.
It's like if you're writing a book in MS Word.
.
Once you hit page 1,000 you notice that it takes some time to load and save your book now. Also, features like search and replace are much slower.
.
You decide to split your book in two so now you have two sections that are 500 pages each.
.
Performance is improved.
.
The better your graphics, the more instancing becomes important.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I'll have to give it a go. To my recollection, every time I pass from Ghostlands to EPL, whether on foot or flying, the BC loading screen displays since this was a BC added zone.
Regardless, the general assertion of my post was that "seamless" worlds were not the secret key to success/wow-killer (as OP elaborated) and I think that point still stands. My secondary point, that I opened with, is that there has been no WoW killer in any genre really, so saying "space is not a good idea" might as well say steampunk, low fantasy, sci-fi, etc, etc are not good ideas.
Now, certainly, perception of the customer is where the decisions are made, but stating WoW is seamless is wrong. Stating EvE is seamless is wrong. Those are just matters of fact. Now, if the idea was that other games don't hide it as well, then that can certainly be an argument of opinions.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
You are my hero, you are a poetic maven of corelation. >.<
Add=
What about Rekktors new space mmo?
"Yea, I've been drinking again.."
WoW mainly uses instances to separate expansion content and dungeons/PvP. Vanilla WoW has one instance for each continent. Then each expansion has a separate instance. All of the dungeons/PvP are instances because they are group specific content and not because they couldn't physically accomodate the model in its physical location.
Blood Elf/Drenei areas while being physically on the old continents are part of the Outland instance because of the expansion mechanics. They don't want people who didn't buy the expansion going in there, etc.
A lot of it is illusion though and how well the developers can load certain areas and unload others while you are playing and unawares instead of looking at a loading screen. And I think this is part of what makes a good game.
I don't care if inside a building and outside a building are two different models that don't really exist together. As long as I can travel between them without being hit over the head with the fact.
I wan't to be able walk from the planet into the ship and it be seamless. I wan't the ship to lift off the planet and into space and it be seamless. I want ti fly to another planet and land and it be seamless. That's a tall order.
Myabe we'll see that, maybe we won't.
I think the closest short term* version of that would be Ambulation/Walking in Stations/Incarna/"whatever it's called now", for EvE. I mean, there will still be docking to the station which would be the equivalent of loading. This isn't walking on a planet, but I suppose if one is feasible, the other is. However, I can't really see them implementing this for planets with the console FPS DUST514 in the works...which is all about fighting on the planets...
Otherwise, I'm not sure of any other space based games looking to do that right now. Admittedly, I am not up to date on Black Prophecy or Jumpgate Evolution beyond pedestrian interest though. So, maybe they've got something planned. All in all, the closest I've seen to what you are describing is SWG (at least Pre-CU). Not sure about the current implementation of it except that the newer planets don't seem to be as "free-roam". But, that is my impression after trying one of the vet trials, so I might be mistaken about that.
I don't see how any of this makes a space MMO "not a good idea" though, based on the points I've already made. Perhaps the thread should have been "what Vestige360 wants out of a space MMO".
*or maybe not with how often it's been delayed.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
It's also very hard to deliver this experience in the real world. If i want to board a plane, fly into the air and land in another city. I'd get get stuck staring at at least 5 different screens along the way. So why try deliver something that's clearly unrealistic? Immersion in a space game is browsing the web and watching porn while your ship flies from one planet to another though emptiness. For this reason, it's actually a lot easier to achieve in a sci-fi game.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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Currently Playing: ESO
EVE is hands down the Best MMO on the market... and its SCI FI in space, one world one server on comunity.... 40 thousand people loged in everyday to the same server in a GIGANTIC UNIVERSE...
Space I would say is the best way to have an MMO in as it gives you limitless expancion potential.....