I say second life is a sandbox. Why? Because you can do anything in Second Life. You want a new face? Make a new face. You want to run a bar on the beach? You can do that too.
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Why do you say Eve is a sandbox? Can you build a bar on the beach in Eve and serve drinks?
To me, sand box is just another way of saying gankfest. Because that is what they turn in to. There is always a certain percentage of people who just HAVE to gank and grief others. It doesn't matter how creative the Dev's are with the game systems, it always (to this point) ends up an endless arms race between the Dev's and the gankers/griefers. With the usual results.
The ironic part of this is that such actions have resulted in the current trends. Once there are other choices, the CareBears leave for games that do not allow (or encourage) gankiing/griefing. That leaves the gankers/griefers with mainly the other PvP types. Gankers/griefers do NOT like that ^^ Which leads to the second wave of migration. Then the Dev's have the usual choices. Change their rule set, or go out of business.
EVE is an excellent example of a PvP game that has had to adapt to this reality. The evolution of Concord and the high sec rule set have been examples of how CCP has moved to protect its business model.
Thus those looking for these types of games, are doomed to disappointment, simply because of human nature, and the reality of how expensive it is to create these games. But I do wish you guys the best of luck.
Dungeons & Dragons premiered on September 17, 1983 on CBS and ran for two seasons. The main characters were real-world people who rode the new D&D roller coaster at the local theme park and somehow got transported by the Dungeon Master to a fantasy world. Each of the main characters had a personal magic item, and a vast majority of the show's plots revolved around the evil Venger trying (and failing) to get their items so that he could become all-powerful......
I just love when people draw the D&D card when it comes to computer games.... *sigh*
I play D&D since more than two decades now and I can tell you that it is as near to a theme park as it can be. D&D is pure entertainment and players want to be entertained as good as possible. As a DM you cut out all the boring stuff (and with 1e or even brown box D&D that was possible without a problem) and let the players have a good time at the table. I never saw players that had fun in playing out mining, gathering food, repairing items, etc, at the table, never ever. This stuff is handwaved in a matter of seconds at the table 99% of the time.
They want to do the big stuff like fighting the nasty monster in the dungeon or sneak through town to rescue the damsel in distress. All this Roleplaying mumbojumbo only got into the game at a later time. When D&D had its golden age in the late 70s and early 80's it was about "Get in - kill it - survive it - get the phat loot - get out - brag about it" and the harder it got the better it was.
You guys yelling and lamenting about "sandbox vs. theme park" either do not or do not want to understand the real difference between the two terms. Because essentially both terms belong to each other. You know what D&D is? A sandbox theme park...think about it.
I heard the latest ruleset for D&D 4? is aimed more towards the themepark/World of Warcraft crowd. I read people are going back to the classic 3.5? ruleset because the new stuff is too easy.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
So fun is bitching about getting pk'ed 10 years ago? Damn I've been playing these games all wrong. BTW I'm 42 and still have the original dice to with my blue box (some a-hole stole the crayon...I have a special bullet for him if I ever find him).
To the OP: What makes you think that 'themeparkers' do not get it? What if the 'themeparkers' simply do not want it? Your position implies that people in your labeled category have not considered playing other game styles before selecting to play thempark style games. Where do you draw that conclusion from?
Very well put and I agree. The fact that mmos seem to have degenerated over the years instead of growing into the lush worlds we thought they would become back in the day ( yeah I'm 35 and old too) really dissapoints me. I guess as with everything else, once money gets into the equation everything becomes about making $$$ instead of making something you truely feel pationate about.
I remember my first time playing EQ and I ran into a cabin full of mobs that killed me instantly and going back several times to try and get my corpse and finally having to just give up and lost all my items. I remember me and my friend exploring the wilderness in Anarchy Online and how beutiful the land was and running for my life from minibulls. To this day no creature from any mmo I have played has instilled the kind of hate I still have for those damn minibulls. I remember DAOC when it first came out and everyone no matter your level would run out to the frontier, not to farm for realm points (they were not even in the game yet) or form gank squads, but to defend our relic keep from invaders and having a sense of pride. I remeber being part of HUGE battles in Planetside that felt like I was actually in full scale combat and it was glorious!
It seems that for some reason the current crop of mmos don't spark the feelings I got from the past ones and after WoW came out the industry just went stale.
edit: man you guys are fast or I'm just slow, there were no replies when I started writting this
I say second life is a sandbox. Why? Because you can do anything in Second Life. You want a new face? Make a new face. You want to run a bar on the beach? You can do that too.
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Why do you say Eve is a sandbox? Can you build a bar on the beach in Eve and serve drinks?
I would have to agree with you on this, EVE is very limited in it's "Sandbox" theme, you get a ship, your ship is then outfitted to do certain tasks, you can't deviate outside of those tasks but you can fly anywhere in space (Whoop dee doo), you choice of what you get upto in the game is yours, mine, pvp, explore, mine, pvp, explore, mine, pvp, explore, the list is endless.
Second life does go a very long way in giving you a true sandbox experience, it's still not something I would want to invest time in as I do prefer my gaming time to be structured rather than a case of thinking, "WTH am I going to have to make up today to have fun", my monthly sub pays developers to devise new and interesting ways to keep me playing, not the other way around.
However we are all different, some enjoy making up their own entertainment, some like myself enjoy to be shown where the fun is, and fortunately there are enough games out there to keep both sides of the fence satisfied.
Edit, and if someone adds in that EVE has a political element to it I would have to say that any MMO that has guilds of any type also has that same political element to it, competing guilds will do alot of things to get ahead in games, use underhanded tactics to dominate areas of a game world or world spawns etc, it's not just the domain of EVE.
To the OP: What makes you think that 'themeparkers' do not get it? What if the 'themeparkers' simply do not want it? Your position implies that people in your labeled category have not considered playing other game styles before selecting to play thempark style games. Where do you draw that conclusion from?
Partially because in the past 5 or 6 years or so there haven't been many good games released that incorporate some of the best features of the early games (which had bad features of course) so many of today's gamers don't know that they're missing.
Even though most of the early titles still exist, they've been changed over time to become hollow shells of what made them great (hence the calls for classic servers all the time in EQ, DAOC and Ultima)
Also, it seems most modern MMO's have a hard time retaining people's interest anymore, its the same thing every time, release to big fanfare and box purchases only to see the sub base trickle away to 100-300K at best in most cases.
I believe that if a good sandbox type game was released today it would have a pretty decent draw, say up to 500K subs, but wouldn't expect it to ever draw down WOW's numbers which is probably why it will never be attempted, at least by the big Dev houses.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The real discussion shouldnt be about Themepark vs Sandbox as every game is essentially a Themepark (ie- Devs create a themed world for you to adventure in) and a Sandbox (ie- Devs give you toys to play with as you wish)
The real discussion should be about Linear Progression ( Following a predetermined path through a game) vs Free Form Progression (No predetermined path. you go where you wish, when you wish and do as you will)
Most MMOS now have become Linear, Restricted and Static Gaming Lobbies as opposed to Free Form, Unrestricted and Dynamic Virtual Worlds.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
That was a refreshing read. Good to see that there are other gamers out there like myself that are looking for more than facebook with elves. I don't understand how people can get so worked up about getting killed in a game. If you had to work for your gear, you are doing it wrong. It shouldn't be work for you, it should be fun, and if you lose it, well at least you enjoyed the journey along the way. In fact, you should enjoy the game enough that getting a new set isn't any sweat off your back. Sheesh, you'd think actual lives depended on this shit the way people carry on about it.
You guys know UO is still around and recently launched an expansion right?
Oh, we know.
The problem with UO is that it was fundamentally altered to be about grinding for gear some years ago, so it's no longer the same as it was in it's 'golden age'. Some would also argue that the split between the PvP and non-PvP lands broke PvP in the game too.
The sick irony of it, is that the lead developer that spearheaded the itemization change the occured in the Age of Shadow expansion, jumped ship to become a developer for World of Warcraft.
The real problem is that there isn't a decent sandbox game for developers to emulate and build off of. Most sandbox or game that have sandbox elements are filled with horrid tales of failure and problems. They are difficult games to develop and there really isn't a successful model to follow.
I personally think much of this is due to the background of designers. The Garriots, McQuaids, Kosters, etc grew up in muds and table top gaming. Imagination was king and their designs reflected that.
New designers coming up throught the ranks have grown up with collectable card games dominating "role playing" experiences where all the rules are neatly condensed onto a piece of cardstock in a one inch block of text. Nothing exists outside of that block of rules on the card. Sure there is plenty of strategy, getting the right mix of cards together and making your deck as effecient as possible, but at the same time it seems that is also reflected in the current design of mmos.
Get the right mix of players, use the right strategy, make the most effecient build, etc.
I enjoy both sandbox and theme parks, but theme parks play more like CCGs than they do RPGs
Seems to me that a large portion of the latest generation of gamers has little to no imagination, or even tolerance to anything that is actually challenging.
Rather than making their own goals and 'content', they have to have there hands held and told what to do, and how to do it.
At 47, I'm old enough to have been around MMOs since the beginning and I don't understand the love for some of those older ones. In fact, I remember being disappointed that UO wasn't much like Ultima 3 (my fav of the series).
In any event, I'm not sure how so-called themepark games so severely detract from a sandbox style of play. I'll use Wow as an example: When you create a character, the area around you has mobs/quests appropriate for your level, and eventually you are directed to the next appropriate area. That's the themepark part. But there's nothing forcing you to do that stuff or preventing you from just exploring wherever you want. Isn't that sandboxy? Go, wander, explore, maybe find some quests or npcs or tough mobs or whatever. How does the mechanisms of these games prevent that?
Heck, OP is just a troll. If you want the ultimate online gaming sandbox just head over to Farmville. For the mature adults amounts us there may be a realisation that theme park isn't really an insult...merely a tag for the modern mmorpgy that features great graphics, sound, PvE gameplay, and an immersive story.
Originally posted by Rekindle Originally posted by uquipu So you leave Eve's training ground. . You go get a mission from the theme park owners. You perform missions. . Or you go mine an asteroid that the theme park owners set up for you to mine. . Or you go out and explore space. The theme park owners set up space for you to explore. . You progress your toon along lines that the theme park owners set up. . All this before you joined the game. . Where is the freedom?
I'm not denying the roll of repetitive content in games. My "~" key on most keyboards was worn out back in the day. This was my use item button in UO. In order to acquire the supplies I needed I had to use-item a lot. UO had a very repetitive aspect to it. So does Eve but this repetition is not the corner stone of the game's offering. Using a computer will invariably result in repetitiion. Games are no different. As for your suggestion that I progress my toon along the lines the owners set up I'd agree. But you won't have anyone in Eve telling you they have a lvl 54 miner or a lvl 30 explorer. Is Eve perfect? Well I wouldnt be here right now if it were (or maybe its because the servers are off) but if we put the freedom enablers of Eve on a chart then you'd see why. Its clear that Eve devs, at least in the beginning, were ex-UO. . *shrug* What do Eve player's say? I have an 120 in piloting? . The difference between that and saying I have a level 120 pilot is trival, imo . Eve is a theme park game with a little sandbox thrown in. More sandbox than WoW but no where near the amount of sandbox you find in Second Life.
What is the single reason that there are so many wow clone theme park games out there? The answer is : Because people play them.
When us older farts (I'm only 35 hehe) first sat down to play mmos in the early days it wasn't to play some mouse on a wheel spinning after gear crap. For many of us, including the developers, it was the pnp Dungeons and Dragons finally actualized. Sure the UI was clunky but there was some aspect of it that made you feel like you were part of the environment. Most new developers probably haven't even seen a D20
And how disappointed I was when I logged onto UO and Everquest and so very much DID NOT see pnp Dungeons and Dragons actualized. Felt more like PnP DnD NPC life actualized. Seriously, start a PnP campaign where the players roll D20's over and over again to see if they've successfully mined ore...
UO remains the only game world where I traded a house I owned for a wooden chair because it was broken and therefore "rare".
Thus, you participated in an economy which made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
Now its all this free to play nonsense which wouldn't be a scam if it didn't FEEL like a scam and if they werent trying to hide the fact you don't get something for nothing.
I'd call 200 hours of gameplay in Middle Earth for FREE certainly SOMETHING.
What the hell has happened to this industry? Its gone completely fubar. All I can say is thank god for Eve Online. The one place where I still clearly remember when and where I loose stuff. The one place where I feel the player has the upper hand in how to participate in content and the one place that promises to give me a good ass kicking for my missteps. In Eve sometimes there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Finally something I can agree with. I think Eve is a terrific game, too.
I dont really mean to offend people who enjoy theme park games. It is a style, and its a valid one but it represents a level of creative indulgence I've experience already. I find that sandbox , free to roam worlds offer the most intresting experiences because by nature human behaviour is unpredictable whereas games on rails always have predictable outcomes.
I'd believe all that, except that the title of your OP is "You Themeparkers just don't get it". Perhaps they like themeparks, and prefer them over sandboxes because sandboxes generally tend to feel empty, clunky, and broken, since so many players have a main goal of trying to do something screwy to the gaming world for notoriety. There's probably a 1,000 page dev manual out there on just housing exploits...
The last 10 years of gaming has been spent developing hatred for what the genre has become. You can say how innovative the graphics engines have become but if you boil game play down it hasn't changed. The level wheel has been perfected to be the perfect result of scripted programming instead of the otherway around.
Something must have changed, because I couldn't stomach more than a month of UO or Everquest, but LotRO is thoroughly enjoyable for me. Eve, SWG, and LotRO are the only MMO's in which I've subbed to for over a year. UO and EQ were such horrible, tedious messes that I went back to MUD's until after SWG was released.
I don't prefer games based on themepark/sandbox ideology. I prefer them based on their merits as a WHOLE, on whether I enjoy the GAME. Sorry, but it's people whole hold ideological checklists to determine what makes a game fun who DON'T GET IT. You'd think that after playing and griping about DFO and FE and many other recent sandbox games that have focused on sandbox gameplay, that those people might actually figure out that just MAYBE, they really don't know what they want. Or that what they THINK they want really isn't what they want.
I just love how people keep throwing the term WoW clone theme park around. Show me ONE game that is as good/equal to WoW. I can't think of any. I can think of plenty of games lately that TRY to be like WoW and fail. Therefore this argument isn't really about WoW themepark games but about companies trying to get a piece of the pie that WoW has and failing miserably.
To me that points to lack of originality or just complete disregard for what made WoW popular in the first place. So the problem isn't the game type, sandbox or themepark(personally I like hybrids of these, i.e. FFXI and such) but the quality, originality, and polish of games post WoW era.
I think a lot of people in this thread need to go look up the definition of sandbox as it applies to gaming. It's not about being able 'to do anything.' It's about linear versus open progression. Like a sandbox, you're given a bucket and shovel (the game mechanics), but what you want to do them is up to you.
I like both styles of games. However, I don't think the OP is complaining about the pervasiveness of themepark games, but rather the absence of high-quality sandbox games. Off the top of my head, I can only name five sandbox-type games (Eve, Ryzom, UO, Fallen Earth, Second Life), only one of which were released within the past five years. Of those five, only Eve has a high level of polish.
I enjoy themepark games (Aion and LotRO are among my favorites), but I can understand the desire for more freeform games. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Eve's genre, so that leaves me choosing between games that are either well past their prime (Ryzom, UO), horribly unpolished (Fallen Earth), or more of a social experiment than a game (Second Life).
Originally posted by elocke
I just love how people keep throwing the term WoW clone theme park around. Show me ONE game that is as good/equal to WoW. I can't think of any. I can think of plenty of games lately that TRY to be like WoW and fail. Therefore this argument isn't really about WoW themepark games but about companies trying to get a piece of the pie that WoW has and failing miserably.
To me that points to lack of originality or just complete disregard for what made WoW popular in the first place. So the problem isn't the game type, sandbox or themepark(personally I like hybrids of these, i.e. FFXI and such) but the quality, originality, and polish of games post WoW era.
Lord of the Rings is as good as WoW in most areas, and better than WoW in several.
The real discussion shouldnt be about Themepark vs Sandbox as every game is essentially a Themepark (ie- Devs create a themed world for you to adventure in) and a Sandbox (ie- Devs give you toys to play with as you wish)
The real discussion should be about Linear Progression ( Following a predetermined path through a game) vs Free Form Progression (No predetermined path. you go where you wish, when you wish and do as you will)
Most MMOS now have become Linear, Restricted and Static Gaming Lobbies as opposed to Free Form, Unrestricted and Dynamic Virtual Worlds.
Indeed.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think a lot of people in this thread need to go look up the definition of sandbox as it applies to gaming.
I like both styles of games. However, I don't think the OP is complaining about the pervasiveness of themepark games, but rather the absence of high-quality sandbox games. Off the top of my head, I can only name five sandbox-type games (Eve, Ryzom, UO, Fallen Earth, Second Life), only one of which were released within the past five years. Of those five, only Eve has a high level of polish.
I enjoy themepark games (Aion and LotRO are among my favorites), but I can understand the desire for more freeform games. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Eve's genre, so that leaves me choosing between games that are either well past their prime (Ryzom, UO), horribly unpolished (Fallen Earth), or more of a social experiment than a game (Second Life).
Fallen Earth is not a sandbox game.
It's a themepark hybrid with some sandbox elements. You're quite literally forced to do a large list of specific quests, otherwise you will lose out on up to 30% of the possible attribute points, meaning 30% of your character progression can only ever be achieved by jumping through the hoops of specific quest chains and quests. That is the main reason why Fallen Earth cannot be considered a sandbox MMO.
I just love how people keep throwing the term WoW clone theme park around. Show me ONE game that is as good/equal to WoW. I can't think of any. I can think of plenty of games lately that TRY to be like WoW and fail. Therefore this argument isn't really about WoW themepark games but about companies trying to get a piece of the pie that WoW has and failing miserably.
To me that points to lack of originality or just complete disregard for what made WoW popular in the first place. So the problem isn't the game type, sandbox or themepark(personally I like hybrids of these, i.e. FFXI and such) but the quality, originality, and polish of games post WoW era.
I feel sorry for this guy ^^^^
And I completely agree with the OP. However I am very suprised he has not tried Darkfall, that is about as close to Ultima Online 2 as we are going to get. Mortal Online might have been but is just to bugged out.
I think I just talked myself into resubbing Darkfall.... Oh no !!!!!!
But seriously Ultima Online is not playable anymore, I tried it again recently and thought WTF did I really play that?
I think the point when you start worrying more about labeling games than having fun is the day you should give up gaming. Labels aren't everything. Sure, I started out with a sandbox game (SWG) but I've been around gaming long enough to know that there is more to gaming than categorizing every little thing.
Originally posted by dreamscaper I think a lot of people in this thread need to go look up the definition of sandbox as it applies to gaming. It's not about being able 'to do anything.' It's about linear versus open progression. Like a sandbox, you're given a bucket and shovel (the game mechanics), but what you want to do them is up to you. I like both styles of games. However, I don't think the OP is complaining about the pervasiveness of themepark games, but rather the absence of high-quality sandbox games. Off the top of my head, I can only name five sandbox-type games (Eve, Ryzom, UO, Fallen Earth, Second Life), only one of which were released within the past five years. Of those five, only Eve has a high level of polish.
I enjoy themepark games (Aion and LotRO are among my favorites), but I can understand the desire for more freeform games. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Eve's genre, so that leaves me choosing between games that are either well past their prime (Ryzom, UO), horribly unpolished (Fallen Earth), or more of a social experiment than a game (Second Life).
Originally posted by elocke I just love how people keep throwing the term WoW clone theme park around. Show me ONE game that is as good/equal to WoW. I can't think of any. I can think of plenty of games lately that TRY to be like WoW and fail. Therefore this argument isn't really about WoW themepark games but about companies trying to get a piece of the pie that WoW has and failing miserably. To me that points to lack of originality or just complete disregard for what made WoW popular in the first place. So the problem isn't the game type, sandbox or themepark(personally I like hybrids of these, i.e. FFXI and such) but the quality, originality, and polish of games post WoW era.
Lord of the Rings is as good as WoW in most areas, and better than WoW in several.
Now see, while I do enjoy LOTRO, I still think it falls short in being like WoW. But ok, it is probably the closest to it. It falls short in the combat aspect(feel of my character in the world) and it seems....smaller in some respects than WoW.
Perhaps the lack of sandbox games is for other reasons. I can of 2 things that are popular with people in entertainment but for some reason, at this time, they aren't making them as much. 1. Fantasy/SciFi movies - Lord of the Rings and Star Trek and Star Wars prove that people want these, but are they making em? Nope. 2. RTS games like Alpha Centauri, Civilization etc. Another hugely popular gametype, but no one is making them anymore(yes I know Civ 5 is coming, but it's not the same as those old days)
Originally posted by Elikal Originally posted by PyrateLV The real discussion shouldnt be about Themepark vs Sandbox as every game is essentially a Themepark (ie- Devs create a themed world for you to adventure in) and a Sandbox (ie- Devs give you toys to play with as you wish) The real discussion should be about Linear Progression ( Following a predetermined path through a game) vs Free Form Progression (No predetermined path. you go where you wish, when you wish and do as you will) Most MMOS now have become Linear, Restricted and Static Gaming Lobbies as opposed to Free Form, Unrestricted and Dynamic Virtual Worlds.
Indeed. . Not true in many games. Yes there are quest lines but if you don't like questing, another option is to grind mobs to level. . Many people never quest. They prefer grinding over quests. . The only thing quests offer is breaking up the monotony. So instead of killing 4,232 rabid tigers, you kill 23 rabid tigers, 12 horrid hyenas, 6 cackling crows etc. . Quests are a mere addition to games. An added feature. An addition that you can ignore in many cases.
When I was younger and had all the time in the world I loved sandbox. Now I'm older and have little time to spare I like to be fed with a giant spoon, I want to be able to get on my rollercoaster as quick as possible and have as much fun as possible in the time i have allocated because I know I have a crap load of other things in need to get done and should be doing.
Comments
To me, sand box is just another way of saying gankfest. Because that is what they turn in to. There is always a certain percentage of people who just HAVE to gank and grief others. It doesn't matter how creative the Dev's are with the game systems, it always (to this point) ends up an endless arms race between the Dev's and the gankers/griefers. With the usual results.
The ironic part of this is that such actions have resulted in the current trends. Once there are other choices, the CareBears leave for games that do not allow (or encourage) gankiing/griefing. That leaves the gankers/griefers with mainly the other PvP types. Gankers/griefers do NOT like that ^^ Which leads to the second wave of migration. Then the Dev's have the usual choices. Change their rule set, or go out of business.
EVE is an excellent example of a PvP game that has had to adapt to this reality. The evolution of Concord and the high sec rule set have been examples of how CCP has moved to protect its business model.
Thus those looking for these types of games, are doomed to disappointment, simply because of human nature, and the reality of how expensive it is to create these games. But I do wish you guys the best of luck.
I heard the latest ruleset for D&D 4? is aimed more towards the themepark/World of Warcraft crowd. I read people are going back to the classic 3.5? ruleset because the new stuff is too easy.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
So fun is bitching about getting pk'ed 10 years ago? Damn I've been playing these games all wrong. BTW I'm 42 and still have the original dice to with my blue box (some a-hole stole the crayon...I have a special bullet for him if I ever find him).
To the OP: What makes you think that 'themeparkers' do not get it? What if the 'themeparkers' simply do not want it? Your position implies that people in your labeled category have not considered playing other game styles before selecting to play thempark style games. Where do you draw that conclusion from?
to the OP:
Very well put and I agree. The fact that mmos seem to have degenerated over the years instead of growing into the lush worlds we thought they would become back in the day ( yeah I'm 35 and old too) really dissapoints me. I guess as with everything else, once money gets into the equation everything becomes about making $$$ instead of making something you truely feel pationate about.
I remember my first time playing EQ and I ran into a cabin full of mobs that killed me instantly and going back several times to try and get my corpse and finally having to just give up and lost all my items. I remember me and my friend exploring the wilderness in Anarchy Online and how beutiful the land was and running for my life from minibulls. To this day no creature from any mmo I have played has instilled the kind of hate I still have for those damn minibulls. I remember DAOC when it first came out and everyone no matter your level would run out to the frontier, not to farm for realm points (they were not even in the game yet) or form gank squads, but to defend our relic keep from invaders and having a sense of pride. I remeber being part of HUGE battles in Planetside that felt like I was actually in full scale combat and it was glorious!
It seems that for some reason the current crop of mmos don't spark the feelings I got from the past ones and after WoW came out the industry just went stale.
edit: man you guys are fast or I'm just slow, there were no replies when I started writting this
The Brave Do Not Fear The Grave
I would have to agree with you on this, EVE is very limited in it's "Sandbox" theme, you get a ship, your ship is then outfitted to do certain tasks, you can't deviate outside of those tasks but you can fly anywhere in space (Whoop dee doo), you choice of what you get upto in the game is yours, mine, pvp, explore, mine, pvp, explore, mine, pvp, explore, the list is endless.
Second life does go a very long way in giving you a true sandbox experience, it's still not something I would want to invest time in as I do prefer my gaming time to be structured rather than a case of thinking, "WTH am I going to have to make up today to have fun", my monthly sub pays developers to devise new and interesting ways to keep me playing, not the other way around.
However we are all different, some enjoy making up their own entertainment, some like myself enjoy to be shown where the fun is, and fortunately there are enough games out there to keep both sides of the fence satisfied.
Edit, and if someone adds in that EVE has a political element to it I would have to say that any MMO that has guilds of any type also has that same political element to it, competing guilds will do alot of things to get ahead in games, use underhanded tactics to dominate areas of a game world or world spawns etc, it's not just the domain of EVE.
Partially because in the past 5 or 6 years or so there haven't been many good games released that incorporate some of the best features of the early games (which had bad features of course) so many of today's gamers don't know that they're missing.
Even though most of the early titles still exist, they've been changed over time to become hollow shells of what made them great (hence the calls for classic servers all the time in EQ, DAOC and Ultima)
Also, it seems most modern MMO's have a hard time retaining people's interest anymore, its the same thing every time, release to big fanfare and box purchases only to see the sub base trickle away to 100-300K at best in most cases.
I believe that if a good sandbox type game was released today it would have a pretty decent draw, say up to 500K subs, but wouldn't expect it to ever draw down WOW's numbers which is probably why it will never be attempted, at least by the big Dev houses.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The real discussion shouldnt be about Themepark vs Sandbox as every game is essentially a Themepark (ie- Devs create a themed world for you to adventure in) and a Sandbox (ie- Devs give you toys to play with as you wish)
The real discussion should be about Linear Progression ( Following a predetermined path through a game) vs Free Form Progression (No predetermined path. you go where you wish, when you wish and do as you will)
Most MMOS now have become Linear, Restricted and Static Gaming Lobbies as opposed to Free Form, Unrestricted and Dynamic Virtual Worlds.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
That was a refreshing read. Good to see that there are other gamers out there like myself that are looking for more than facebook with elves. I don't understand how people can get so worked up about getting killed in a game. If you had to work for your gear, you are doing it wrong. It shouldn't be work for you, it should be fun, and if you lose it, well at least you enjoyed the journey along the way. In fact, you should enjoy the game enough that getting a new set isn't any sweat off your back. Sheesh, you'd think actual lives depended on this shit the way people carry on about it.
Oh, we know.
The problem with UO is that it was fundamentally altered to be about grinding for gear some years ago, so it's no longer the same as it was in it's 'golden age'. Some would also argue that the split between the PvP and non-PvP lands broke PvP in the game too.
The sick irony of it, is that the lead developer that spearheaded the itemization change the occured in the Age of Shadow expansion, jumped ship to become a developer for World of Warcraft.
His name is Tom Chilton.
The real problem is that there isn't a decent sandbox game for developers to emulate and build off of. Most sandbox or game that have sandbox elements are filled with horrid tales of failure and problems. They are difficult games to develop and there really isn't a successful model to follow.
I personally think much of this is due to the background of designers. The Garriots, McQuaids, Kosters, etc grew up in muds and table top gaming. Imagination was king and their designs reflected that.
New designers coming up throught the ranks have grown up with collectable card games dominating "role playing" experiences where all the rules are neatly condensed onto a piece of cardstock in a one inch block of text. Nothing exists outside of that block of rules on the card. Sure there is plenty of strategy, getting the right mix of cards together and making your deck as effecient as possible, but at the same time it seems that is also reflected in the current design of mmos.
Get the right mix of players, use the right strategy, make the most effecient build, etc.
I enjoy both sandbox and theme parks, but theme parks play more like CCGs than they do RPGs
Seems to me that a large portion of the latest generation of gamers has little to no imagination, or even tolerance to anything that is actually challenging.
Rather than making their own goals and 'content', they have to have there hands held and told what to do, and how to do it.
At 47, I'm old enough to have been around MMOs since the beginning and I don't understand the love for some of those older ones. In fact, I remember being disappointed that UO wasn't much like Ultima 3 (my fav of the series).
In any event, I'm not sure how so-called themepark games so severely detract from a sandbox style of play. I'll use Wow as an example: When you create a character, the area around you has mobs/quests appropriate for your level, and eventually you are directed to the next appropriate area. That's the themepark part. But there's nothing forcing you to do that stuff or preventing you from just exploring wherever you want. Isn't that sandboxy? Go, wander, explore, maybe find some quests or npcs or tough mobs or whatever. How does the mechanisms of these games prevent that?
UO had a very repetitive aspect to it. So does Eve but this repetition is not the corner stone of the game's offering. Using a computer will invariably result in repetitiion. Games are no different.
As for your suggestion that I progress my toon along the lines the owners set up I'd agree. But you won't have anyone in Eve telling you they have a lvl 54 miner or a lvl 30 explorer.
Is Eve perfect? Well I wouldnt be here right now if it were (or maybe its because the servers are off) but if we put the freedom enablers of Eve on a chart then you'd see why. Its clear that Eve devs, at least in the beginning, were ex-UO.
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*shrug* What do Eve player's say? I have an 120 in piloting?
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The difference between that and saying I have a level 120 pilot is trival, imo
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Eve is a theme park game with a little sandbox thrown in. More sandbox than WoW but no where near the amount of sandbox you find in Second Life.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I just love how people keep throwing the term WoW clone theme park around. Show me ONE game that is as good/equal to WoW. I can't think of any. I can think of plenty of games lately that TRY to be like WoW and fail. Therefore this argument isn't really about WoW themepark games but about companies trying to get a piece of the pie that WoW has and failing miserably.
To me that points to lack of originality or just complete disregard for what made WoW popular in the first place. So the problem isn't the game type, sandbox or themepark(personally I like hybrids of these, i.e. FFXI and such) but the quality, originality, and polish of games post WoW era.
I think a lot of people in this thread need to go look up the definition of sandbox as it applies to gaming. It's not about being able 'to do anything.' It's about linear versus open progression. Like a sandbox, you're given a bucket and shovel (the game mechanics), but what you want to do them is up to you.
I like both styles of games. However, I don't think the OP is complaining about the pervasiveness of themepark games, but rather the absence of high-quality sandbox games. Off the top of my head, I can only name five sandbox-type games (Eve, Ryzom, UO, Fallen Earth, Second Life), only one of which were released within the past five years. Of those five, only Eve has a high level of polish.
I enjoy themepark games (Aion and LotRO are among my favorites), but I can understand the desire for more freeform games. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Eve's genre, so that leaves me choosing between games that are either well past their prime (Ryzom, UO), horribly unpolished (Fallen Earth), or more of a social experiment than a game (Second Life).
Lord of the Rings is as good as WoW in most areas, and better than WoW in several.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Fallen Earth is not a sandbox game.
It's a themepark hybrid with some sandbox elements. You're quite literally forced to do a large list of specific quests, otherwise you will lose out on up to 30% of the possible attribute points, meaning 30% of your character progression can only ever be achieved by jumping through the hoops of specific quest chains and quests. That is the main reason why Fallen Earth cannot be considered a sandbox MMO.
I feel sorry for this guy ^^^^
And I completely agree with the OP. However I am very suprised he has not tried Darkfall, that is about as close to Ultima Online 2 as we are going to get. Mortal Online might have been but is just to bugged out.
I think I just talked myself into resubbing Darkfall.... Oh no !!!!!!
But seriously Ultima Online is not playable anymore, I tried it again recently and thought WTF did I really play that?
I think the point when you start worrying more about labeling games than having fun is the day you should give up gaming. Labels aren't everything. Sure, I started out with a sandbox game (SWG) but I've been around gaming long enough to know that there is more to gaming than categorizing every little thing.
Now see, while I do enjoy LOTRO, I still think it falls short in being like WoW. But ok, it is probably the closest to it. It falls short in the combat aspect(feel of my character in the world) and it seems....smaller in some respects than WoW.
Perhaps the lack of sandbox games is for other reasons. I can of 2 things that are popular with people in entertainment but for some reason, at this time, they aren't making them as much. 1. Fantasy/SciFi movies - Lord of the Rings and Star Trek and Star Wars prove that people want these, but are they making em? Nope. 2. RTS games like Alpha Centauri, Civilization etc. Another hugely popular gametype, but no one is making them anymore(yes I know Civ 5 is coming, but it's not the same as those old days)
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Not true in many games. Yes there are quest lines but if you don't like questing, another option is to grind mobs to level.
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Many people never quest. They prefer grinding over quests.
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The only thing quests offer is breaking up the monotony. So instead of killing 4,232 rabid tigers, you kill 23 rabid tigers, 12 horrid hyenas, 6 cackling crows etc.
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Quests are a mere addition to games. An added feature. An addition that you can ignore in many cases.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
When I was younger and had all the time in the world I loved sandbox. Now I'm older and have little time to spare I like to be fed with a giant spoon, I want to be able to get on my rollercoaster as quick as possible and have as much fun as possible in the time i have allocated because I know I have a crap load of other things in need to get done and should be doing.