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MMORPG.COM News: Mourning Removed
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And Egomancer publically contradicted this in the same thread on the Mourning forum yesterday. As I told him yesterday, they really need to get their misinformation straight.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
My account is still active but I have only posted there once and it was shortly before the removal of Mourning, and an off topic post at that so I am still alive there, for now...
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Interesting thread. Somehow worth the read like a lot of weird, long threads out there. I'm definitely not caught up in the hot, oh so hot, passion of the issue, so I'll offer a couple of decidedly cold observations.
First, there's no breach of journalistic ethos here. This site (pardon my presumption) is more like an independent publicist than a news outlet. They form business relationships, however informal or unstructured, with clients. One receives juicy tidbits we comb the intrawebs for, the other gets its tidbits eaten. Sounds like one or both partners managed to step over the lines of an informal and unstructured relationship. Partnership terminated.
Second, you guys (mmorpg.com) seem to have firmly planted yourselves on The Fence with this. I think I understand how things came to this point, but your current position doesn't seem tenable, as many have pointed out. Eventually, you will have to move one way or the other, by either publicising the offensive correspondence (either directly or through some other outlet - and from your repeated statements that you feel you are 'protecting' users of an internet forum from a game developer in Romania, there is clearly something unique and perhaps newsworthy going on), or by simply adding the game back to your list. At which point all this drama becomes exactly that.
This to me is just as if cnn.com would announce: We will not be covering any more news from China. They are communists, they treat their people bad and their president sent us some mean letters
You will have to decide: is mmorpg.com a site which is doing its best to cover all MMORPG games out there (be it a good game, bad game from good developers, bad developers), or you are just a site where companies can promote their product
Because no matter how you put it, it looks like you guys consider it a privilege for a game to be listed on your site, and by removing it you are trying to hurt the game and/or the developers.
I guess you can do that since you own the site. But in this case you might want to update the following part of your FAQ:
I think there is a game that needs to be added to your list. How do I submit this?
First, please make sure that the game is not already on our list. If you know the name of the game, make sure you sort our list by "Title" (click on the Title column name) and look for it alphabetically.
Second, make sure that it meets our criteria:
· Game must support 500+ players in a single world
· It must be graphical...so no text based MUDs.
· It must use a true client/server connection. In other words, no HTML or "web" based games. Games that run in a browser using Java are OK.
· It must contain good RPG elements. We define this as having control of a single character and there being some sort of leveling or skill advancement system in place.
· The game must have a nice web site free of annoying pop-up ads or Spyware programs.
· There must be at least 3 in-game screens that show the game engine...3D renderings do not count.
· The game must fully support English. This means the client interface, in-game chat, help system and support website must all be in English.
I can suggest just adding an extra point here which states:
· The developers of the game must be nice and professional to us and they must treat their costumers right.
Regards
N.
Absolutely. Everyone's point is valid and open to discuss. And I agree it can be very dangerous when people start to play with power. That is why we did what we did. In the last four years of this site in existance, we have never whiped an entire forum before. Our Site administrator takes great strides when decisions are made. When he decided to remove a forum, that means it was a pretty hard core decision and not something done in a fit of anger or "well, we will show them"
Also, the validity of the PMs were genuine. They were more like "emails" than PMs. We made sure the sources were genuine before making a rather enormous decision like this.
Like I said, I value anyone's opinion in this matter. I am just telling you "our side" of the situation.
Tnx for the answer En1Gma. I really appreciate that. But, can I ask you, does MMORPG.com recognise your responsability to the games you cover (press ethics wise)?
Also, do MMORPG.com recognise that removing Mourning from your games list is potentially very harmful to the Mourning product?
Again, do MMORPG.com recognise that you are potentially denying a huge number of your subscribers news about this product that we may have come to rely on MMORPG.com to recieve?
Lastly, do MMORPG.com recognise that taking actions such as removing a game you're covering in such a fashion as was the case here have the potential of raising doubts as regarding you credibility? (Meaning that you'd want to avoid doing this if at all possible.)
I'm asking this because the answers to these questions can help me relate to whether removing Mourning was really nessessary on MMORPG.com's part.
well apparently I was a topic of discussion for about 5 whole seconds there...
http://www.realmsoftorment.net/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=18525
And then they just assumed I was some mod - developer for DnL and starting slamming on it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Staff has already stated that his has never happenned in the past and will probably never happen again. And the decision was made over alot of thought, discussion, and Craig's concious. So your statement is completely out of line as I see it and is groundless at that.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I really think it should be in the list.
Just say you dont support this game in any form. Yet, your list need to be complete!
Clicking on the Mourning title may even not work, the list is still complete! And for the rating, you can give erase all past rating and rerate it at your convenience. 4.3 sound like it would draw minimal attention, it is not low enought tod draw attention!
Carebears squad, let's us target Tiamat! LOVE ATTACK!!!!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well, games are an industry with a lot of money flowing through it, as I'm sure you know. Now I am one of those who usually don't put a lot of stock in money (so I would tend to agree with you on this). I do however recognise that a lot of people care a great del about money. If fact, so much that it becomes more important that most other things in life. This is why we have this phenomena called corruption. When games becomes the arena for making money they do indeed become "that important" for many people.
In addition from getting their money from the gaming industry, MMORPG.com is a news media. I'm sure you are aware of the distinction between news and propaganda..? It's rather easy to push the boundaries between those two to such a degree that it's hard or even impossible to destinguish the one from the other, when dealing with "news".
So MMORPG.com does indeed suffer from a credibility issue on two fronts in this case. That doesen't mean they are really untrustworthy, but it does mean their trustworthiness should be questioned.
But say, do you really belive that when someone runs a buissniss they may conduct themselves in whatever manner pleases them?
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
Man if mmorpg is the ONLY source of information(not news) for mmorpg, I wonder how many mmorpg are missing and dieing out there. Face the fact, mmorpg is a INFROMATION and not NEWS site. If its a news site, I wonder how many new news there will be per sec. Bet the list will carry on in an indefinite rate at amazing speed
. I probably can list a few games not on their listing which is kinda fun to play and meets all req.
Credibility, hmmp its as good as people sees it. If this was a news site, I best recommand them remove all those low rated mmorpg and save ur bandwidth lol. News is bais, news is a form of entertainment (went throught a full 3 months course to understand that
), news are for making money. If you see mmorpg as a news site, it wouldnt have so many games in its listing, just the few they feel that can make the cut and earn them some dough.
Also if u wanna talk about credibility non stop, I say boycott all form of news site, newspaper, mags and every single article that gives information lol. Everyone,everything is bais to a certain extend in nature and news sites are the greatest example of them all.
Mmorpg.com just gives you watever information they find and tat doesnt automatically change them to a news site for all ur gamming needs. Its very community based so I dont really see much bais in their decision.
talking about business, business is about relationship, business is about making money, I dunno how u can anyone classify mmorpg.com as a real business. If its one, I recommand the same thing as I recommand if they were a real news site
Anyway if a game is good, it will survive, if its bad, it will die. Do you guys really think a game like say starcraft became famous because it was publicesed? I think blizzard then wasnt even consider a super game power house like it is now.
About the money part, none of us is paying them for this service. So dont expect everything in the world to be here. They need to earn their money too which pretty much explains the banners on this site.
It may seem I side mmorpg.com here but my opinion is pretty much the same as I last posted, remove the forum and keep the link just for information sake. Dont update them but dont totally sideline them.
Sorry for my ranting but I cant stand the "bashing" especially the credibility part on mmorpg.com. Good work for keeping this site up. Been here for sometime and planning to visit it for many years to come.
I see many of the points you have made. But have you considered that MMORPG.com isn't just a buisniss, but a media buisniss..? When a media buisniss lose their ehics we get a media who gives the "news" who pay the most or who the person in power feels most serves him or his cause. That sort of news is called propaganda. Do you really want such "news" all because you belive that "it's their buisniss so they can do what they please"?
Do you see why MMORPG.com are in danger of becoming such an institusion by removing Mourning, regardless how you may feel about the game in question..?
So let me understand what your saying correctly. You feel that if you provide a news service and you ONLY show what you chose to show with news its an agenda and unethical? SO exactly what major news publication do you consider ethical then? I cannot think of an example where there is a newspaper or media source that manages and decided to report ALL news that comes their way. There is always a section and a choice on what will and won't make it. That does NOT make it ethical unless the person is has an agenda when he selects what makes it and what don't. Thats call good business and posting what people want to see the most.
(...)
You seem to be confusing with a media source that is covering a story giving you ALL the facts to the story, which then it becomes an ethics issue if they do not. However they do not need to give you ALL the news, that would not only be a bad business choice but quite impossible to achive.
No, you're not understanding what I'm saying correctly. What you're doing is that you're taking several of my points out of their contexts, mixing together a few chosen words from two or tree of them, making up a whole new point as a result, and then placing it in my mouth.
I've never claimed a news media needs cover all news to be ethical, and that in it self makes most of your post invalid.
To clarify my points to Happydan20's post.. Happydan20 compared MMORPG.com to a buisniss. I pointed out that him that MMORPG.com is a media-buisniss, and cannot be compared to a normal buisniss where rules of conduct is conserned.
I can see how you Fadeus could have become confused about the ethics part when not reading it in the context of my ealier posts. I tried to cut text so as not to repeat myself to extensivly. It may have been a mistake though, as my point may not have been appearant. I don't know.
To clarify again, MMORPG.com could in theory be removing Mourning from their games list for many reasons. One of the reasons could easily be that they where paid to do so by one of their sponsors. Another reason could easily be Admin and/or staff members on a powertrip (either because of their very human nature, or because of some agenda). That is not to say this is in fact the case, but it's highly probable when considering their buisniss consept, market position, press history and human nature in general. In other words, there is a -chanse- that MMORPG.com removed MMORPG.com for reasons not complying with press ethics. MMORPG.com staff are very sympatethic so most of us(me included) would like to belive not. That does not diminish the chanse of it being so however.
I asked Happydan20; Do you see why MMORPG.com are in danger of becoming such an institusion by removing Mourning, regardless how you may feel about the game in question..?
It would seem your answer to this question Fadeus is "no, I don't". So let me explain that too, so that perhaps we can avoid you putting even more constructed opinions in my mouth.
When removing Mourning in the fashion they did shows observers a chanse something is not as it should with MMORPG.com. Whether false or true this puts MMORPG.com's credibility to the question, which is bad in it self. (a lot of other bad things comes as a result if this action as well, but they are not a part of this particular point and you can read my earlier posts if you are unable to see then for yourself.) Whatever their reasons (ethical or otherwise), MMORPG.com have now removed a game for other reasons than it's demise. It's a known fact that when you do a thing once it becomes easier to do it again. History shows that in most things, when you do a thing once you are highly probable to repeat that or a similar action. MMORPG.com is not a person. It may not exist forever, but it's highly probable to long outlive it's current staff. Assuming the present staff removed Mourning for the right reasons, there is nothing to ensure the next staff will do what they do for the right reason.
The thing is, the more easily we let this removeal pass, the easier it will become for MMORPG.com (and even other media in a similar position) to repeat this action. (with the current staff, or the next.) History shows us this aswell. (As does human nature.)
Did this make my point any less obscured for you Fadeus, of do you still subscribe to the view that my post was about MMORPG.com not covering all the MMORPG news in the world?
Staff has already stated that his has never happenned in the past and will probably never happen again. And the decision was made over alot of thought, discussion, and Craig's concious. So your statement is completely out of line as I see it and is groundless at that.
The staff has stated, so it must be so? What, are they gods now? I like them too, but that doesen't mean I blindly confirm and repeat their statements.
I agree to most of your reasoning, but none of this makes any point about credibility or press ethics invalid.
LOL was just waiting for someone to say this, and I wholeheartedly agree, just as Mourning's board belongs to mourning and they too can do whatever they wish with thier board.
BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you two-faced hypocritical jerks think its fine for you to go over to the mourning forums and cuss, and post scat pictures, and flame the game, the devs, and anyone who tries to support the game. When they try and moderate THIER BOARDS you pricks pop over here and accuse them of being NAZI's, and pulling a SCAM, and MMORPG comes out in support of your lies, slander and disqusting behavior.
Then when the Devs over at Mourning get upset by MMORPG encouraging and defending these nasty hateful and slanderous posts, MMORPG turns around acting the the victim in all this putting on a big presentation to stir up this whole thread.
Pot and Kettle Baybee
Good lord.
You said you were an adult and a mother and you are going to post like this? You said you were a journalist? If you were my employee paid to write a review and got in the middle of a situation writing correspondence like this, suffice it to say you would have some serious issues.
Did they? Where? I've been following this thread from the beginning but can remember below half a dozen ppl strongly indicating they are Mourning fans, only.. Have I missed something?
Nope, I think you said it perfectly. About half a dozen.
Hehe, funny point! *grins*
This is perhaps not the right place to make it though, but no matter..
Good post.
However, how can you tell for sure there is no breach in press ethics here? I sure can't.
Also, what relevance does the discription of this site have to do with the ethical responsabilities it has? Some people have pointed out statistics that indicate a full 1/4 of Mourning's potential (and registered) customers depend on MMORPG.com for their news about Mourning. While I personally see this as abuse of statistics, I do belive there is some probability that indeed a large portion of Mournings potential customers use this site for their Mourning news. It is my strong belief that this is a much more important factor to the level of responsability MMORPG.com has towards Mourning than how you choose to name MMORPG.com. Do you disagree?
Very good post!
Staff has already stated that his has never happenned in the past and will probably never happen again. And the decision was made over alot of thought, discussion, and Craig's concious. So your statement is completely out of line as I see it and is groundless at that.
Sure my statement looks out of line and groundless if you take it out of context... Try to put it back in the whole post I wrote. As you can see, mmorpg.com has well-established requirements for a game to be listed on their site. At the bottom of their game list they state: This is a continually updated list of all MMORPG games known to be released or in production - to the very best of our knowledge. If you see an error or a game missing, please let us know so that we can update our list.
To the VERY best of their knowledge
So the Staff has already stated that his has never happened in the past and will probably never happen again This statement is so weak, you cant even try to base an argument on it: it will PROBABLY never happen again? (it will never happen as long as all the devs are nice and send us cookies every now and then?)
I dont know the REAL reason they removed the game. Unless you are a staff member or have some connections with any of the staff members, you cant know for sure either.
The official mmorpg.com statement was :
We would like to clarify that this decision was not based on the actions of any community members at MMORPG.com - rather our core feelings about the company behind this project, and the way they treat us and their community.
I mean.. I dont really care about Mourning any more that I care about DnL, or some other game that will come out soon. I am just disappointed that I have to look for an other site which has a COMPLETE listing of all mmorpg games out there.
Someone said mmorpg.com is not a news site.. I guess it is for them to decide
what they are They do have a News room, a Latest news section
The way I see it they should have posted an announcement that mmorpg.com received an unprofessional e-mail from the devs of Mourning in which they where bitching about us not moderating the forums correctly or bla bla bla..(whatever else was in the e-mail) Then everybody could have compared the forums dedicated to the Mourning game to the other forums and decide for themselves if the devs are full of it or not. And just put in a game review: game looks nice, you can do this, that yada yada yada, but the developers are a unprofessional, they need socializing skills etc etc
ps. Sorry for the long post: boss is not in today so I have some extra free time..
N.
No reason to apoligize for such an exellent post Norbi99
You really make some strange comments........
Anyway. Egomancer is comformed as real, please go to the "Black Hole" Section you will find a post there conforming this is indeed him. Again, Im not sure most of you understand how wrong it is to request people personal information without court order(one that would never come). It was threating and a baseless lawsuit.
Not the first threatened bogus lawsuit either. The threatened the guys at somethingawful.com with a libel/slander case when they made fun of the game. They then shifted to copyright infringement for posting a benign screen shot next to the funny article.
Apparently these guys do not understand satire and its impact on slander cases ... Jerry Falwell learned that one the hard way. They also do not understand the "fair use" doctrine permits parodying and humourous uses of copyrighted material.
It would be irresponsible for a forum to provide personal information for posters absent a specific court order. It is also irresponsible for a forum admin to post an individual's IP address like Tiamat apparently did in Mourning's forums.
Please add Mourning back into your list of games and keep the forums gone. I had faith in mmorpg.com to have the most complete listing of my favorite type of game but now that is jeopardized, and goes against your own statement that it is a *complete* listing.
If you don't add it back in to the list, then at least change that statement as someone else suggested, because it is no longer true.
- Lady Pashta
That was a great line.
I think that what mmorpg.com did was up to them. Their domain, their forums, their lists.
I think that this thread was unavoidable, if the Moderaters didn't create it a Troll would have. However, this thread is, nothing more than an invitation to flame Mourning. If mmorpg.com staff was unwilling to post, clearly, the reasons for the action they took, then us the viewers can do nothing but post emotional content. If Mourning is unwilling to post their reasons, clearly, then there is nothing we, the readers can do, but post emotional content.
One wonders, seeing this as so obvious.... if that wasn't the original intent...
Something Awful
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