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Are higher level characters really stronger than low level?
pencilrick
Member Posts: 1,550
Are they? Think about it. At max level, the game is generally raiding, and it can take 10, 20, 40 people to handle one mob, even if those people have epic gear.
At Level One, a player, with tattered armor and a worn weapon can take two or three mobs as if he/she were Conan.
So, are you really more powerful at max level, or are you actually decreasing in ability to take on level-appropriate mobs?
Think about it.
Comments
Relative to the stuff they have to fight, of course they're not stronger. I've said for years that leveling is just an illusion. Yes, technically characters get stronger but they are only stronger against things which are no longer relevant to them.
Depends on the game construction, you are automatically assuming levels.
However, using that assumption i believe that yes higher level characters are stronger, most levelled games low level characters cant even hit a high level, which just causes them to rush to max level, introducing the question, why have progression at all if most will do the minimum to get to max level as quickly and efficiently as possible.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
Of course statistically speaking a level 5 is stronger than a level 2, doesn't matter if it is skills or character levels.
But I know what you mean, you start the game soloing mobs with ease and end up being one of many. being part of a group tends to make you feel less powerful and important that when you are doing things by yourself.
It would be intetresting if a game started you out with raiding and you progressed to the ability to solo toward the high levels
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In the scenario you create there, which is the most common scenario currently, that holds very true. In games that are not raid-focused, that isn't the case. AC, UO, EVE and several others increase the options a player has as they level up, affording more choices in gameplay and allowing them to fight more mobs at once instead of less.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
A 9 year old bully who beats up 3 kids isn't stronger than the "wimpy" UFC champ who fights one opponent at a time, sorry.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Lame argument.
PVP: level 1 player against a leve 50 player will result in the level 50 player beating the level 1 player to death with his/her own life bar.
Could King Conan whip teenage Conan's arse?
.
Yep
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Easy to figure out. take a low level character and see what single mob is a tough fight. . take a character 5 levels higher and you will see you are stronger.
What you are asking is relative to the difficulty of appropriate mobs you are expected to take on are you relatively weaker. .then yes. But that is like saying when we are 30 we are not as smart as when we are 11 because life is harder. Mind you are brains do work better when we are born. . . hmmm.
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World of Warcraft is the original creation of God. Real Life is in fact a WoW clone.
You can find out yourself. Play a statistically relevant number of matches in Smash Bros Melee with Young Link against Link, and bring us a report.
PS You cannot compare 3 wolf puppies with 1 dragon hatchling
Well of course. This is the main argument why leveling and steep character power curves are completely pointless in mmos.
Leveling is chasing ghosts. You are not getting any more powerful with leveling. It is an illusion. And a pretty thin one at that.
The only area of mmorpgs where leveling is of any real import is in PvP. And the MAJOR problem of mmorpg PvP is difference in character powers - in short , they are ridiculously unfair and inbalanced in that regard BECAUSE of leveling and attendant sharp differences between characters.
So let me summarize, leveling (and steep power curves) is
PvE: completely pointless, since the mobs power is adjusted to your level anyway. It is tottaly the same thing if you're level 1 and fighting level 1 mob and if youre level 100 fighting level 100 mob. The only use for leveling is unlocking new abilities and content and that can be done as efficiently in ways that do not impact raw character power.
PvP: actively harmful. 99% of all troubles with mmo PvP comes from raw power differences between new and experienced players. You don't even have to have levels in the game to do a real messin this regard as DFO has shown.
IMO there should finally come a mmo that does away with levels or at least steep character power advancement which is so awesomely last century's tuesday. Lateral character advancement schemes (unlocking new abilities and more choice in how you play your character) and independent content unlocking mechanics FTW.
If you are talking about WoW you have a point, if you are talking about CoH its doesn't work that way.
lol. Didn't meant to bump such a dumb thread but that made me laugh.
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Actually no this question is not stupid. It has been argued for ages at CoH. Namely "Why am I a 'super' hero if I can only take on 3 minions?"
In CoH as you get higher and higher a decent build can take on MUCH more enemies than a level 15 or so character who will most likely be conforming to the 1 hero = 3minions equation.
In theory CoH is balanced around that static formula in practice people have been able to get around. But the content is balanced around that balance formula.
In the case of old-school raiding 40man WoW or 72 man EQ they change the balance forumla. You go from solider in a small special ops style group to an ant in a raid.
Balance is about context afterall
Your question pertains to the norm of games these days by which we use, unwilling at times, WoW as the standard. Certainly such a game and others like it present a situation such as you presented. However I remember playing Asherson Call about 10 years ago. My low level toon was weak and wimpy and often needed the help of others to reclaim his corpse and his possessions. Now there was a game with a proper downside to being killed unlike modern games. Anyhow I digress. Once my toon was up into his 70s and 80s he kicked arse. I could solo what would be regarded as a mob boss in such games as WoW. So basically, my high level toon felt and was literally stronger than he was at low level. So I guess the answer would be yes and no to your question. It depends on the game you play.
I see the point that trying to be made here, but I don't agree.
Let's look at casual vs competitive FPS play as an example:
You might be really good at an FPS you enjoy playing casually in pubs. You land a 3:1 KD on a regular basis and you're clearly a smart/skilled player.
Then you go to play competitively where people take the game more seriously (generally) and people are just better (in general, again). You're still really good, but now landing a 1:1 KD is considered "good" and that's about where you stand on a regular basis.
Are you suddenly worse now that your competition is better? I don't think so. The environment has changed and so has the demand for skill. You're just as good now as you were, but your opponents are stronger than they were before. If you were to return to pub play after playing competitively for a long time you might even be much better than you were previously.
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But actually how good are you is ALWAYS considered subjectivly. For example, if you could run 100m in 10 secs that's great. But if every single person on the planet could do it in 8 secs then your are terrible at running.
On your example: if you get 2:1 KD ratio on average then you are good if the population average is 1:1KD. If it's 3:1KD (please omit the logical implications) then you are weak.
For the ones stating that they disagree because of PvP imbalance:
His post is specifically about PVE; mobs and raiding.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Characters are stronger. However, so are the enemys. The relative balance of power stays about same for a given power equivalent target whether it be raid, group or solo. This is assuming character level and gear leveling as appropraite (skill also if skill leveling is important like EQ2).
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That's the whole idea for most MMO.
Get bigger sword to fight bigger dragon for bigger sword to fight...
Apparently that works to keep people playing.
At level 50, the character , naked and with bare fists can take on two or three hundred of these same mobs.
(generally speaking of course, not all games are equal)
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I believe that is the whole point of the thread. That it should not be the whole ideas of most MMO's. It is a treadmill. You upgrade your damage, but doing that requires you to kill mobs with more HP for the same results.
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i think it depends on what game you are playing. I remember a certain MMO I played before, people were arguing about this. Some players think that it is not about the level, they said that it was all about talent. But logically speaking, level gaps would really decide on who wins or not.
Depends on the game and depends on the class itself. Enchanters in EQ, outside of raid bosses, in the right hands were godmode as they leveled up. The class had to be practically nerfed into the ground for "hard" content for a while because their ability to control was out of hand from the developers point of view. Of course, this made them practically worthless outside of buffing.
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I get what the OP is saying, that a level 1 character vs level 1 mobs is the same or better then a level 80 vs level 80 mobs.
However, with the exception of some really poorly made games, this isn't true at all.
To use WoW as an example my level 72 shaman can kill 3-5 level 72-74 mobs in the same amount of time that it took to kill one thing at level 1
Even with games that have easy starter levels, as soon as you are past them the 'power curve' so to speak comes into effect. In FFXI for example a level 75 group kills much much faster then a level 20 group vs mobs appropriate for the group.
Even in single player games that scale mobs, such as oblivion, a higher level character can kill faster and take on more mobs then a low level one. As a higher level character will have much better armor and spells
Sure if you intentionally gimp yourself by not wearing armor or using spells and whatnot you might have a problem with same level mobs in a game, but that has nothing to do with the balance of the power curve