This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.
I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month.
This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did.
erm....if you think that the only reason why someone would raid, is purely for the "fun" of it, then you really don't know people too well. Character progression (i.e. better items) is a primary motivator throughout ALL MMO's. Even Sandbox ones. I know you don't like this situation, but you have to accept it. YOU are in the minority in terms of why someone would want to raid.
Besides, how would YOU suggest MMO raids should designed in order to remove repetition and at the same time be seen as "fun"?
There have already been games that have raids as just fun. Gear progression, for gear progressions' sake is just sad. Whats the point? You farm gear, so you can have the gear to go to another place and get more gear, and then that gear is made obsolete by an expansion or patch. If you did each raid once or twice, while it was still fun, THEN progressed, maybe that'd be different.
But WoW has one single linear thing to do at the end, raid. And that is where the boredom and grind sets in.
In games like Dark Age of Camelot there was a point to the gear you raided because you could use it to fight other places. You could gather up massive parties to raid, or if you didn't want to, or didn't have the time, you could pay a crafter for gear with comparable stats, but it doesn't look at neat. People that wanted to PvE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just wanted to do them for fun, could, because the game wasn't one dimensional.
Whats the point in ANY game: fun. And fun is subjective. Some people enjoy character and item progression. Some don't. I doubt many people enjoy having to raid 4 times a week just to "gear up" for the next dungeon. Diminishing marginal utility is a real thing, after your 14th time doing the raid, there's probably little fun left in it.
Actually WoW doesn't just have one single point at the end. There's pvp, raiding, group dungeons and crafting (albeit basic crafting). Just like other games. The crafting is shallow and pointless. The PvP is a joke and holds no consequence over the game world. It's like an FPS match. Group dungeons and raids are essentially the same thing. WoW is a one trick pony, let's not pretend it isn't.
You DO realise that WoW has craftable raid gear too don't you? I'll admit that WoW isn't as dimensional as other games. However, I'm unsure as to what your point with "PVE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just want to do them for fun, could..." You can do that in WoW too. Maybe I'm missing you're point I dunno. You actually can't, because they're set up in a tier system, where you have to do them in order, and in order to get the gear to do the next tier, you have to do the same dungeon at least a dozen times if you're lucky.
Reaffirms my reasons for quitting WOW over 2 years ago. I have to laugh at people who raid, spending 3-4 hours multiple nights a week doing the same content over and over, dying, going back , etc etc and then once you get all the uber gear and finish banging your head on the wall for countless hours month after month they make your gear useless and you get to repeat that all over again lol
Reaffirms my reasons for quitting WOW over 2 years ago. I have to laugh at people who raid, spending 3-4 hours multiple nights a week doing the same content over and over, dying, going back , etc etc and then once you get all the uber gear and finish banging your head on the wall for countless hours month after month they make your gear useless and you get to repeat that all over again lol
What makes me laugh is people haunting a game's forum 2+ years after they left that game, still trying to convince others that the game sucks. If anything, those really desperately need to get a life, WAY more than any raider who enjoys killing a few bosses every week with his friends.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Reaffirms my reasons for quitting WOW over 2 years ago. I have to laugh at people who raid, spending 3-4 hours multiple nights a week doing the same content over and over, dying, going back , etc etc and then once you get all the uber gear and finish banging your head on the wall for countless hours month after month they make your gear useless and you get to repeat that all over again lol
And then people praise it as the best MMORPG of all time and cite IT HAS SO MANY SUBSCRIBERS as the reason. Pitiful game design.
This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.
I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month.
This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did.
erm....if you think that the only reason why someone would raid, is purely for the "fun" of it, then you really don't know people too well. Character progression (i.e. better items) is a primary motivator throughout ALL MMO's. Even Sandbox ones. I know you don't like this situation, but you have to accept it. YOU are in the minority in terms of why someone would want to raid.
Besides, how would YOU suggest MMO raids should designed in order to remove repetition and at the same time be seen as "fun"?
There have already been games that have raids as just fun. Gear progression, for gear progressions' sake is just sad. Whats the point? You farm gear, so you can have the gear to go to another place and get more gear, and then that gear is made obsolete by an expansion or patch. If you did each raid once or twice, while it was still fun, THEN progressed, maybe that'd be different.
But WoW has one single linear thing to do at the end, raid. And that is where the boredom and grind sets in.
In games like Dark Age of Camelot there was a point to the gear you raided because you could use it to fight other places. You could gather up massive parties to raid, or if you didn't want to, or didn't have the time, you could pay a crafter for gear with comparable stats, but it doesn't look at neat. People that wanted to PvE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just wanted to do them for fun, could, because the game wasn't one dimensional.
Whats the point in ANY game: fun. And fun is subjective. Some people enjoy character and item progression. Some don't. I doubt many people enjoy having to raid 4 times a week just to "gear up" for the next dungeon. Diminishing marginal utility is a real thing, after your 14th time doing the raid, there's probably little fun left in it.
Thats the whole point of raiding: attempting to defeat high difficulty encounters. And if you're point is that everyone should get items on the first few tries then what else are the devs supposed to give them to elleviate the boredom? Even MORE raids? They wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand in content additions if that was the case. This is PRECISELY how raids are designed the way they are: to keep players repeating the same dungeons in order to stretch out the longevity of the content.
Actually WoW doesn't just have one single point at the end. There's pvp, raiding, group dungeons and crafting (albeit basic crafting). Just like other games. The crafting is shallow and pointless. The PvP is a joke and holds no consequence over the game world. It's like an FPS match. Group dungeons and raids are essentially the same thing. WoW is a one trick pony, let's not pretend it isn't.
Ah, you're implying that PVP should have an impact on the world. Well, you might not like it, but others do nonetheless. Which means that it IS viable at end game. As for crafting being shallow, I'll give you that, but its not entirely pointless. Some items are always sought after. What's your point about group dungeons? Group dungeons are VERY popular at end game for those who don't want to raid but nevertheless want to earn enough emblems to buy higher grade items. Some of which are VERY close to some raid items in terms of potency.
In short, you may not like it but character / item progression is a BIG motivator in MMO's.
You DO realise that WoW has craftable raid gear too don't you? I'll admit that WoW isn't as dimensional as other games. However, I'm unsure as to what your point with "PVE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just want to do them for fun, could..." You can do that in WoW too. Maybe I'm missing you're point I dunno. You actually can't, because they're set up in a tier system, where you have to do them in order, and in order to get the gear to do the next tier, you have to do the same dungeon at least a dozen times if you're lucky.
Erm, no. You don't have to do them in tier order at all. That is false. A person who's never ever raided in WoW, could potentially walk into the ICC raids wearing purple items they got from group dungeons and emblems. They don't need to do Tier 1 - 9 before going for Tier 10.
Did you perhaps get burnt previously in a raid group that refused to give you items before others got them who had been there before you? Because that's what it sounds like. Don't blame WoW for poorly managed raids.
Complaining about this (greens post expansion better than epics pre expansion) simply shows that you have no idea about game mechanics.
This item level jump is required for balance reasons. Let's say you keep the greens post-cata at the same quality of pre-cata. Well, have fun with the quests, because that means that either each quest gives epics as rewards (which would be quite silly) or 99% of all quest rewards would be worthless.
In addition: it's about the difficulty of the encounters. If you keep the greens at the same level as before, then people who level up from 1 to 85, without stopping to raid, will have no epics when going into cataclysm. However, the quests must be doable for those people. You can't expect everyone to level to 60, raid AQ, BWL and MC for some weeks until they can beat the normal quests of BC. Then again raid Kara and whatnot on lvl 70, before the can continue with WOTLK, and then on 80 raid Nax and ICC and whatnot before they can continue with cata. The difficulty must be designed in a way that someone can smoothly level from 1 to 85 without beeing forced to stop because of a sudden jump in difficulty.
That means, that either the quests are piss easy after each expansion, and everyone with epic gear can simply accept 20 quests at once, pull 500 mobs, go afk, and come back when they died by some thorns buff or auto-hit or whatever. That makes no sense. It would annoy people. It would give them no sense of accomplishment.
The only result is to bring everyone in matters of items no the same level, no matter if they participated in old raid dungeons or not. That requires the cataclysm quests to reward people who never raided before with loot that equals the epics from old quests.
That's why it has to be that way. That's why comlaining about powerful greens in expansions is plain stupid. Do I complain because my old core-marksman rifle doesn't kick ass anymore on lvl 80? I was proud when I got it, I had a great time with it, and then when the expansion came out I moved on.
Yes, that is the logical choice. When reading yoru post though, I was thinking to myself that it might be neat to require players to do the old raids. I'm not much of a raider as I mentioned in my post above, but I would like to see karazhan one day. I suppose I could just go there with some friends once I hit 85 or whatever, but it seems as though most of those raid dungeons are basically lying in waste atm, sort of like the lower level dungeons before the Dungeon Finder came along. Maybe they could put the old raids into the new DF system for players to PuG who have not seen those dungeons before.
Heh, yeah it would be interesting to have a huge difficulty jump from 60 to 61, 70 to 71 and 80 to 81. People would have three choices: a) bite in the sour apple and do very difficult stuff solo b) group up and do difficult stuff in a group or c) raid and then do the stuff easily. It would be interesting, if those raids would work often enough for casual players.
Anyway though, people quitting because of changes, that is so silly. On the one hand people want new content. On the other hand, they want stuff to stay the same. That makes no sense. If you want everything to stay the same, play a game that doesn't get new content. It makes absolutely no sense to quit WoW because an item you got half a decade ago is not as powerful anymore as one you can aquire nowadays.
But that's probably the difference between people who raid because they enjoy raiding, and people who raid only because they want to show off with new equipment. XD
This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.
I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month.
This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did.
You should talk about things you have no idea about. You never played EQ if you think that EQ was about gear. Gear in EQ is second to everything. Shit my 84 necromancer still uses a ring that I got back when I was lvl 65, why because the clicky is better then any upgrade.
EQ raiding was never about gearing up for the next encounter. Very few people care much about their gear in EQ, sure some people grind and raid to get the best of the best gear but most players play EQ1 to have fun and be challenged. Gear from some classes like tanks are important but again you never half to raid in EQ to still be useful in other areas nor do you have to have the best of the best to have a chance.
EQ is nothing like WoW, I do not understand why people compare the two all the time. EQ is more of a "theme Park" game but not even close to games like WoW and its clones that are on rails and only give you one path to level and advance. EQ allowed players to choose their own path to level with multiple zones at each level to hunt. Quests in EQ were real quests not the quests we see today in MMOs. EQ quests made you work for them, made you figure them out. Most importantly they were fun.
Next time, compare WoW to another game you have played or have any idea about.
IMO the new greens should not be more powerful than the Rares you get in raids. They should have started again where the most powerful green left off. Same goes with the blues and purples. It just doesn't make any sense to me that you can get something more powerful so easily when before it was so hard to get.
If you do things in the manner stated above, the people who don't need the greens can sell them they will get new gear when they start raids which will probably happen in a week anyways. I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
Reaffirms my reasons for quitting WOW over 2 years ago. I have to laugh at people who raid, spending 3-4 hours multiple nights a week doing the same content over and over, dying, going back , etc etc and then once you get all the uber gear and finish banging your head on the wall for countless hours month after month they make your gear useless and you get to repeat that all over again lol
And then people praise it as the best MMORPG of all time and cite IT HAS SO MANY SUBSCRIBERS as the reason. Pitiful game design.
I found it quite fun to work at and finally defeat encounters and gear up then start going after hard modes and achievements...
the only thing I never liked about raiding was the guild drama...
too many immature socially-retarded gamers in the world these days.
If you don't know going into it all you are really doing is wasting time trying to have some fun, you're pretty niave.
I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
You never played WoW have you? People that play WoW want instant gradification and a reward for everything they do, going a week with getting a new piece of gear would piss most of the player base in WoW off.
IMO the new greens should not be more powerful than the Rares you get in raids. They should have started again where the most powerful green left off. Same goes with the blues and purples. It just doesn't make any sense to me that you can get something more powerful so easily when before it was so hard to get.
If you do things in the manner stated above, the people who don't need the greens can sell them they will get new gear when they start raids which will probably happen in a week anyways. I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
You see, this is where some people are getting confused. Just because the item level of a green may be slightly higher than a raided purple, doesn't mean that its entirely better. Remember the colour indicates not just the rarity, but the number of stats on the item.
Therefore, even though a green maybe item level 279, and an ICC equivalent is item level 275, the ICC item will be better overall simply because of the increase in stats across the board on the item. Yes the green may have slightly higher intellect, but the purple will have not only intellect, but spell power and other stats too. So in actuality the green will not actuall be as good.
As for greens starting at where the last greens left off, well that sounds good in theory, but in practice what you're left with is a BIG problem in terms of difficulty level for the content in the next expansion. If you make it do-able in the new greens that are just a bit better than the old greens, then the content is potentially vastly harder for those who didn't raid previously. Whereas those in raid found purples would find it too easy. So you're left with a balancing issue.
I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
You never played WoW have you? People that play WoW want instant gradification and a reward for everything they do, going a week with getting a new piece of gear would piss most of the player base in WoW off.
Those who spend weeks and even months to save up emblems to purchase item upgrades would actually disagree with you on that one. Please don't generalise so much.
Not everyone who plays WoW is a spoilt brat who demands to get the best items every time they walk into a dungeon. This is why the Dungeon Finder is so popular. People KNOW that its going to take multiple runs into dungeons to get items. But the fact that they are rewarded for their efforts means that they have something tangible and the end goal is in reach.
Now granted after numerous dungeon runs if you didn't see the item drop that you wanted THEN you'd start to get a little cheesed off. But WoW ain't no different to any other MMO that employs such mechanics. So lets get things into perspective here.
What's amusing is that in THIS THREAD, whilst on the one hand there are posters who are calling WoW because they claim that its players want instant gratification, and on the other there are posters calling WoW for having to do the same raids over and over again and therefore have to spend some time repeating content to get items.
You can't have it BOTH ways guys. Devs just do not have enough time on their hands to be creating raids every week to satisfy the demands of players. This is why raids are made to be replayable time and time again and thus why items have been used as a means to motivate people into repeating the content. WoW is no different than others on this score, and those who raid in WoW know this. So not all WoW players expect "instant gratification" as some claim.
I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
You never played WoW have you? People that play WoW want instant gradification and a reward for everything they do, going a week with getting a new piece of gear would piss most of the player base in WoW off.
Those who spend weeks and even months to save up emblems to purchase item upgrades would actually disagree with you on that one. Please don't generalise so much.
Not everyone who plays WoW is a spoilt brat who demands to get the best items every time they walk into a dungeon. This is why the Dungeon Finder is so popular. People KNOW that its going to take multiple runs into dungeons to get items. But the fact that they are rewarded for their efforts means that they have something tangible and the end goal is in reach.
Now granted after numerous dungeon runs if you didn't see the item drop that you wanted THEN you'd start to get a little cheesed off. But WoW ain't no different to any other MMO that employs such mechanics. So lets get things into perspective here.
What's amusing is that in THE SAME THREAD, whilst on the one hand there are posted in here calling WoW because they claim that its players want instant gratification, on the other there are posters calling WoW for having to do the same raids over and over again and therefore have to spend some time repeating content to get items.
You can't have it BOTH ways guys.
Why do you need to rewarded for running a dungeon? Why do need to be rewarded for raiding?
When I was a full time raider in EQ, my reward was winning the fight. I could careless if I got an item or not. That was never important to me. Same goes for today, I am still playing EQ, not a raider right now but I could careless if I get a shinny new item when i am finished running a dungeon or group content. I could careless, half my gear is over a year old and is "out of date" but guess what? That does not matter, I can still do everything I want with my character, I can still join in on anything I want, I can still join raids even without the best gear.
Gear is the only thing that people in WoW care about, they do not care about the raid or the hard mode or anything other then titles and gear. So yes most players in WoW are the instant gradification crowd, if they are not rewarded in some way for everything they do, then they get mad and whine about it till they get rewards.
Tdogskal's lies about EQ would be hillarious if they weren't so obvious.
Man, you should be aware there are other people who played (and still play) EQ here on this forum... EQ, just like WoW which is modeled on it, was always about gear upgrading. Do you know that one of the main designers of WoW is an EQ veteran, member of one of the most powerful guilds in that game?
Be careful when you talk nonsense like you do... there are many MMORPG veterans posting here, who play those games since before EQ even existed.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Why do you need to rewarded for running a dungeon? Why do need to be rewarded for raiding?
Why not reward people for running dungeons / raids multiple times? Yes, I realise that YOU have a different motivator, but not everyone is the same as you. Some are. But a lot aren't. Doesn't for one minute mean that they want "instant gratification". That's complete bull.
When I was a full time raider in EQ, my reward was winning the fight. I could careless if I got an item or not. That was never important to me. Same goes for today, I am still playing EQ, not a raider right now but I could careless if I get a shinny new item when i am finished running a dungeon or group content. I could careless, half my gear is over a year old and is "out of date" but guess what? That does not matter, I can still do everything I want with my character, I can still join in on anything I want, I can still join raids even without the best gear.
Good for you. I'm glad that you're so easily pleased. However, not everyone is the same as you though. Whilst some raid "for the hell of it", others raid for item progression. Neither is right. Neither is wrong.
Gear is the only thing that people in WoW care about, they do not care about the raid or the hard mode or anything other then titles and gear.
Really? Those who want to do the Heroic modes of the dungeons would beg to differ. Of course, you wouldn't know that because you have obviously made up your mind about all 11.5 million WoW players without finding out for yourself.
Seriously, it amuses me how people take the moral high ground with WoW players, claiming how they have so much more sophistication than those who play WoW. Its all complete and utter nonsense. If you like EQ and raiding "purely for fun" then good for you. But no one has the right to pass judgement on how others play.
Tdogskal's lies about EQ would be hillarious if they weren't so obvious.
Man, you should be aware there are other people who played (and still play) EQ here on this forum... EQ, just like WoW which is modeled on it, was always about gear upgrading. Do you know that one of the main designers of WoW is an EQ veteran, member of one of the most powerful guilds in that game?
Be careful when you talk nonsense like you do... there are many MMORPG veterans posting here, who play those games since before EQ even existed.
What lies are you talking about?
EQ was never about gear upgrading like WoW is. Are you kidding me? I still use a ring I got during a raid in VT, you know like 5 years ago and I have other piece of gear I got years and years ago that I still use. So what lies are you talking about?
Yes I know the guy you are talking about, he was warrior in EQ1 in FoH. Good job, so one guy that now works on WoW means WoW was modeled after EQ, cool never new that. EQ and WoW are nothing alike. In WoW you level by doing quests and moving from quest hub to quest hub. In EQ you find a zone and kill to you out level that area and move on, no set path, no hand holding like in WoW. WoW when you get a quest it shows you on your map were to go and what to kill, in EQ it told you to go find X and nothing more.
If you saying that WoW and EQ are the same because they both have classes and both use a level system then you are correct but after that the games are worlds apart. Death hurts in EQ, not in WoW. I can keep going on and on about how they are different but I hope you see the point.
Gear was not the end all be all like it is in WoW. Shit WoW has Gear score to make sure you only group with people with good enough Gear. That never and would never happen in EQ, gear was not as important as it is in WoW. Like I said and will keep saying my 84 Necromancer still uses gear I got over 5 years ago and I can still do any content in the game without being told that I need to gear up first.
I will give you this, if you played a tank class then gear is more important but again its not end all be all.
I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
You never played WoW have you? People that play WoW want instant gradification and a reward for everything they do, going a week with getting a new piece of gear would piss most of the player base in WoW off.
Those who spend weeks and even months to save up emblems to purchase item upgrades would actually disagree with you on that one. Please don't generalise so much.
Not everyone who plays WoW is a spoilt brat who demands to get the best items every time they walk into a dungeon. This is why the Dungeon Finder is so popular. People KNOW that its going to take multiple runs into dungeons to get items. But the fact that they are rewarded for their efforts means that they have something tangible and the end goal is in reach.
Now granted after numerous dungeon runs if you didn't see the item drop that you wanted THEN you'd start to get a little cheesed off. But WoW ain't no different to any other MMO that employs such mechanics. So lets get things into perspective here.
What's amusing is that in THE SAME THREAD, whilst on the one hand there are posted in here calling WoW because they claim that its players want instant gratification, on the other there are posters calling WoW for having to do the same raids over and over again and therefore have to spend some time repeating content to get items.
You can't have it BOTH ways guys.
Why do you need to rewarded for running a dungeon? Why do need to be rewarded for raiding?
When I was a full time raider in EQ, my reward was winning the fight. I could careless if I got an item or not. That was never important to me. Same goes for today, I am still playing EQ, not a raider right now but I could careless if I get a shinny new item when i am finished running a dungeon or group content. I could careless, half my gear is over a year old and is "out of date" but guess what? That does not matter, I can still do everything I want with my character, I can still join in on anything I want, I can still join raids even without the best gear.
Gear is the only thing that people in WoW care about, they do not care about the raid or the hard mode or anything other then titles and gear. So yes most players in WoW are the instant gradification crowd, if they are not rewarded in some way for everything they do, then they get mad and whine about it till they get rewards.
Way to OVER generalise about all 10+ million WOW players. Sounds like you hate WOW and use your own views of it to insult an entire playerbase. By the way, I am of the EQ crowd and DAOC crowd and play WOW because its fun and I enjoy it. I could care less about gear as indicated by my earlier post in this thread. My wife plays WOW because it is fun and enjoyable. We both play it because we ahve friends that do and we like the game.
Why is it so difficult for WOW-haters to understand that a lot of players actually do like WOW. Hard to believe huh?
I know its hard for you to read the part you even highlighted but the word MOST does not mean everyone. Sure some people play for fun but MOST of the WoW player base play to get that instant gradification from getting a reward for doing anything.
I played WoW too, I quit before the first expansion because it was not the game for me, I understand I am in the minority here but lets face facts. WoW is all about instant gradifictaion and all about getting that next shine peice of gear. I left because everything was about gear, we need this to do this to do this to do this to be able to do this. That is not MY idea of fun. Others like it, cool have fun but does not change the fact that Gear is the end all be all of WoW, has been and will be.
Tdogskal's lies about EQ would be hillarious if they weren't so obvious.
Man, you should be aware there are other people who played (and still play) EQ here on this forum... EQ, just like WoW which is modeled on it, was always about gear upgrading.
Not really.
It became that way after expansion and expansion and expansion followed, changing EQ into a very gear/raid centered game.
That's why many consider EQ as it was pre-SoL, the expansions Ruins of Kunark and Scars of Velious still included, as the time period that EQ was at its best.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Tdogskal's lies about EQ would be hillarious if they weren't so obvious.
Man, you should be aware there are other people who played (and still play) EQ here on this forum... EQ, just like WoW which is modeled on it, was always about gear upgrading.
Not really.
It became that way after expansion and expansion and expansion followed, changing EQ into a very gear/raid centered game.
That's why many consider EQ as it was pre-SoL, the expansions Ruins of Kunark and Scars of Velious still included, as the time period that EQ was at its best.
Maybe for the same reason many people thinks Pre-TBC was the best time of WoW too.
Tdogskal's lies about EQ would be hillarious if they weren't so obvious.
Man, you should be aware there are other people who played (and still play) EQ here on this forum... EQ, just like WoW which is modeled on it, was always about gear upgrading. Do you know that one of the main designers of WoW is an EQ veteran, member of one of the most powerful guilds in that game?
Be careful when you talk nonsense like you do... there are many MMORPG veterans posting here, who play those games since before EQ even existed.
What lies are you talking about?
EQ was never about gear upgrading like WoW is. Are you kidding me? I still use a ring I got during a raid in VT, you know like 5 years ago and I have other piece of gear I got years and years ago that I still use. So what lies are you talking about?
Yes I know the guy you are talking about, he was warrior in EQ1 in FoH. Good job, so one guy that now works on WoW means WoW was modeled after EQ, cool never new that. EQ and WoW are nothing alike. In WoW you level by doing quests and moving from quest hub to quest hub. In EQ you find a zone and kill to you out level that area and move on, no set path, no hand holding like in WoW. WoW when you get a quest it shows you on your map were to go and what to kill, in EQ it told you to go find X and nothing more.
If you saying that WoW and EQ are the same because they both have classes and both use a level system then you are correct but after that the games are worlds apart. Death hurts in EQ, not in WoW. I can keep going on and on about how they are different but I hope you see the point.
Gear was not the end all be all like it is in WoW. Shit WoW has Gear score to make sure you only group with people with good enough Gear. That never and would never happen in EQ, gear was not as important as it is in WoW. Like I said and will keep saying my 84 Necromancer still uses gear I got over 5 years ago and I can still do any content in the game without being told that I need to gear up first.
I will give you this, if you played a tank class then gear is more important but again its not end all be all.
So So very true .. I remember my first real introduction into EQ raiding.. Welcome to ToV.. Yeah, there was the world boss spawns here and there and everyone moblilized to take them out.. But that was never as fun a doing Kael or ToV and similar hot spots.. You were never required to be "geared" to take part of the raid.. HELL, there wasn't even cap limits on who can go, and who can't.. and there sure as hell wasn't an ID system that segregates the guild and community.. There were many of times I (as a druid) would start porting people early before raid time to ToV, and raid for a couple hours.. and log off for the evening, while the guild keeps going without me.. This type of raiding has not, is not and probably will never happen in WoW... I guess that old "eq raider" now working for Blizzard forgot about that.. EQ raiding is NOTHING like WoW raiding.. Only thing they have in common is "lots of players beating up 1 boss"... concept..
MMOChampion just released what appears is the beginning loot drops in Cataclysm. Lvl 272 GREENS better then ICC raid gear.. Now that is just damn funny.. We saw this in TBC expansion, then WoTLK expansion , now here we are again with Cataclysm expansion.. Same thing.. Greens will immediately replace epic gear people spent over a YEAR in raids grinding.. In the 5 expansion levels you'll be doing the same thing as before, replacing all epics with new greens, and after a month IF that.. Players will be farming dungeons at 85th level getting Blues and an occasional purple epic item, then go thru the cycle again of farming heroics for more purples and emblems to do raids..
I wonder how many players will be regearing in greens at level 81 and off to ICC to farm boss targets for achievements..
LOL, this is the reason I never played WOW , loot treadmills have got to be the worst so now people will be grinding for gear again for another 8months to a year, this is why I always supported full on crafting for gear and a player economy, raids should have always been pvp related or epic quests that rewarded fluff items or lead to a component reward to craft high end armor.
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Reaffirms my reasons for quitting WOW over 2 years ago. I have to laugh at people who raid, spending 3-4 hours multiple nights a week doing the same content over and over, dying, going back , etc etc and then once you get all the uber gear and finish banging your head on the wall for countless hours month after month they make your gear useless and you get to repeat that all over again lol
What makes me laugh is people haunting a game's forum 2+ years after they left that game, still trying to convince others that the game sucks. If anything, those really desperately need to get a life, WAY more than any raider who enjoys killing a few bosses every week with his friends.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
And then people praise it as the best MMORPG of all time and cite IT HAS SO MANY SUBSCRIBERS as the reason. Pitiful game design.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Heh, yeah it would be interesting to have a huge difficulty jump from 60 to 61, 70 to 71 and 80 to 81. People would have three choices: a) bite in the sour apple and do very difficult stuff solo b) group up and do difficult stuff in a group or c) raid and then do the stuff easily. It would be interesting, if those raids would work often enough for casual players.
Anyway though, people quitting because of changes, that is so silly. On the one hand people want new content. On the other hand, they want stuff to stay the same. That makes no sense. If you want everything to stay the same, play a game that doesn't get new content. It makes absolutely no sense to quit WoW because an item you got half a decade ago is not as powerful anymore as one you can aquire nowadays.
But that's probably the difference between people who raid because they enjoy raiding, and people who raid only because they want to show off with new equipment. XD
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
You should talk about things you have no idea about. You never played EQ if you think that EQ was about gear. Gear in EQ is second to everything. Shit my 84 necromancer still uses a ring that I got back when I was lvl 65, why because the clicky is better then any upgrade.
EQ raiding was never about gearing up for the next encounter. Very few people care much about their gear in EQ, sure some people grind and raid to get the best of the best gear but most players play EQ1 to have fun and be challenged. Gear from some classes like tanks are important but again you never half to raid in EQ to still be useful in other areas nor do you have to have the best of the best to have a chance.
EQ is nothing like WoW, I do not understand why people compare the two all the time. EQ is more of a "theme Park" game but not even close to games like WoW and its clones that are on rails and only give you one path to level and advance. EQ allowed players to choose their own path to level with multiple zones at each level to hunt. Quests in EQ were real quests not the quests we see today in MMOs. EQ quests made you work for them, made you figure them out. Most importantly they were fun.
Next time, compare WoW to another game you have played or have any idea about.
Sooner or Later
IMO the new greens should not be more powerful than the Rares you get in raids. They should have started again where the most powerful green left off. Same goes with the blues and purples. It just doesn't make any sense to me that you can get something more powerful so easily when before it was so hard to get.
If you do things in the manner stated above, the people who don't need the greens can sell them they will get new gear when they start raids which will probably happen in a week anyways. I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation.
I found it quite fun to work at and finally defeat encounters and gear up then start going after hard modes and achievements...
the only thing I never liked about raiding was the guild drama...
too many immature socially-retarded gamers in the world these days.
If you don't know going into it all you are really doing is wasting time trying to have some fun, you're pretty niave.
You never played WoW have you? People that play WoW want instant gradification and a reward for everything they do, going a week with getting a new piece of gear would piss most of the player base in WoW off.
Sooner or Later
You see, this is where some people are getting confused. Just because the item level of a green may be slightly higher than a raided purple, doesn't mean that its entirely better. Remember the colour indicates not just the rarity, but the number of stats on the item.
Therefore, even though a green maybe item level 279, and an ICC equivalent is item level 275, the ICC item will be better overall simply because of the increase in stats across the board on the item. Yes the green may have slightly higher intellect, but the purple will have not only intellect, but spell power and other stats too. So in actuality the green will not actuall be as good.
As for greens starting at where the last greens left off, well that sounds good in theory, but in practice what you're left with is a BIG problem in terms of difficulty level for the content in the next expansion. If you make it do-able in the new greens that are just a bit better than the old greens, then the content is potentially vastly harder for those who didn't raid previously. Whereas those in raid found purples would find it too easy. So you're left with a balancing issue.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Those who spend weeks and even months to save up emblems to purchase item upgrades would actually disagree with you on that one. Please don't generalise so much.
Not everyone who plays WoW is a spoilt brat who demands to get the best items every time they walk into a dungeon. This is why the Dungeon Finder is so popular. People KNOW that its going to take multiple runs into dungeons to get items. But the fact that they are rewarded for their efforts means that they have something tangible and the end goal is in reach.
Now granted after numerous dungeon runs if you didn't see the item drop that you wanted THEN you'd start to get a little cheesed off. But WoW ain't no different to any other MMO that employs such mechanics. So lets get things into perspective here.
What's amusing is that in THIS THREAD, whilst on the one hand there are posters who are calling WoW because they claim that its players want instant gratification, and on the other there are posters calling WoW for having to do the same raids over and over again and therefore have to spend some time repeating content to get items.
You can't have it BOTH ways guys. Devs just do not have enough time on their hands to be creating raids every week to satisfy the demands of players. This is why raids are made to be replayable time and time again and thus why items have been used as a means to motivate people into repeating the content. WoW is no different than others on this score, and those who raid in WoW know this. So not all WoW players expect "instant gratification" as some claim.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Same.
Why do you need to rewarded for running a dungeon? Why do need to be rewarded for raiding?
When I was a full time raider in EQ, my reward was winning the fight. I could careless if I got an item or not. That was never important to me. Same goes for today, I am still playing EQ, not a raider right now but I could careless if I get a shinny new item when i am finished running a dungeon or group content. I could careless, half my gear is over a year old and is "out of date" but guess what? That does not matter, I can still do everything I want with my character, I can still join in on anything I want, I can still join raids even without the best gear.
Gear is the only thing that people in WoW care about, they do not care about the raid or the hard mode or anything other then titles and gear. So yes most players in WoW are the instant gradification crowd, if they are not rewarded in some way for everything they do, then they get mad and whine about it till they get rewards.
Sooner or Later
Tdogskal's lies about EQ would be hillarious if they weren't so obvious.
Man, you should be aware there are other people who played (and still play) EQ here on this forum... EQ, just like WoW which is modeled on it, was always about gear upgrading. Do you know that one of the main designers of WoW is an EQ veteran, member of one of the most powerful guilds in that game?
Be careful when you talk nonsense like you do... there are many MMORPG veterans posting here, who play those games since before EQ even existed.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
What lies are you talking about?
EQ was never about gear upgrading like WoW is. Are you kidding me? I still use a ring I got during a raid in VT, you know like 5 years ago and I have other piece of gear I got years and years ago that I still use. So what lies are you talking about?
Yes I know the guy you are talking about, he was warrior in EQ1 in FoH. Good job, so one guy that now works on WoW means WoW was modeled after EQ, cool never new that. EQ and WoW are nothing alike. In WoW you level by doing quests and moving from quest hub to quest hub. In EQ you find a zone and kill to you out level that area and move on, no set path, no hand holding like in WoW. WoW when you get a quest it shows you on your map were to go and what to kill, in EQ it told you to go find X and nothing more.
If you saying that WoW and EQ are the same because they both have classes and both use a level system then you are correct but after that the games are worlds apart. Death hurts in EQ, not in WoW. I can keep going on and on about how they are different but I hope you see the point.
Gear was not the end all be all like it is in WoW. Shit WoW has Gear score to make sure you only group with people with good enough Gear. That never and would never happen in EQ, gear was not as important as it is in WoW. Like I said and will keep saying my 84 Necromancer still uses gear I got over 5 years ago and I can still do any content in the game without being told that I need to gear up first.
I will give you this, if you played a tank class then gear is more important but again its not end all be all.
Sooner or Later
I know its hard for you to read the part you even highlighted but the word MOST does not mean everyone. Sure some people play for fun but MOST of the WoW player base play to get that instant gradification from getting a reward for doing anything.
I played WoW too, I quit before the first expansion because it was not the game for me, I understand I am in the minority here but lets face facts. WoW is all about instant gradifictaion and all about getting that next shine peice of gear. I left because everything was about gear, we need this to do this to do this to do this to be able to do this. That is not MY idea of fun. Others like it, cool have fun but does not change the fact that Gear is the end all be all of WoW, has been and will be.
Sooner or Later
Not really.
It became that way after expansion and expansion and expansion followed, changing EQ into a very gear/raid centered game.
That's why many consider EQ as it was pre-SoL, the expansions Ruins of Kunark and Scars of Velious still included, as the time period that EQ was at its best.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Maybe for the same reason many people thinks Pre-TBC was the best time of WoW too.
So So very true .. I remember my first real introduction into EQ raiding.. Welcome to ToV.. Yeah, there was the world boss spawns here and there and everyone moblilized to take them out.. But that was never as fun a doing Kael or ToV and similar hot spots.. You were never required to be "geared" to take part of the raid.. HELL, there wasn't even cap limits on who can go, and who can't.. and there sure as hell wasn't an ID system that segregates the guild and community.. There were many of times I (as a druid) would start porting people early before raid time to ToV, and raid for a couple hours.. and log off for the evening, while the guild keeps going without me.. This type of raiding has not, is not and probably will never happen in WoW... I guess that old "eq raider" now working for Blizzard forgot about that.. EQ raiding is NOTHING like WoW raiding.. Only thing they have in common is "lots of players beating up 1 boss"... concept..
Well said.
LOL, this is the reason I never played WOW , loot treadmills have got to be the worst so now people will be grinding for gear again for another 8months to a year, this is why I always supported full on crafting for gear and a player economy, raids should have always been pvp related or epic quests that rewarded fluff items or lead to a component reward to craft high end armor.
Don't play mmos that use items as its only form of progression.
I learnt this way back in my EQ days and was reminded once again when tbc released.
Its a much more liberating experience when you don't play strictly for the gear.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I like raids the first time around. My only problem is repeating them to gear up and move on to something harder.