Analysts say the money is good -- perhaps too good to pass up, whether a publisher likes the concept or not.
"We believe that an online marketplace will provide varying high-margin incremental revenue opportunities for all of the major video game publishers with the Xbox 2 over the next five years," American Technology Research analyst P.J. McNealy said in a recent note.
Some publishers have estimated the potential for an additional $5 million in revenue per game by offering an extra level to an already released title. That potentially could be structured as a microtransaction.
That plan could be a drop in the bucket, though. Ferroni said it was conceivable that someday, the Xbox marketplace would let users trade and sell among themselves.
That paradigm already exists for PC games, which often allow for trading of virtual items. Castronova estimates that players pay between $100 million and $800 million in cash to buy such items on trading and auction sites like eBay.
"What they're saying to developers is if you don't design this into the game the fan site community, these external people, will capture this money stream," Castronova said.
Thats why they are spending 100 to 800 million on virtual items becuase they are against it.Seems to me it is acceptable with the revenue stream providing the evidence to prove it:)
Your reply is nonsensical. Out-of-game sales still only represent 10-15% of gamers, the majority doesn't participate.
Obviously, those players that are goofy enough to pay their way through a game do represent a fantastic cash crop. And publishers are getting ready to help you out. It works all around. Although it is boggling how you can read all that without any of what it really means sinking in.
There will still always be competitive games tailored for the rest of us however. The trick is learning how to separate farmers and cheaters from the games and the gamers that don't want them.
I believe most players would probably not mind at all to see the selling of ingame items for real money. It's been shown to be a very successful way to charge for a game. Instead of monthly fees, the game company charges for your sword - or for a new spell - or for access to a certain dungeon - or ownership of a piece of land - or whatever.
Project Entropia has had 230,000 downloads. Whether most of those people stayed or not, I couldn't tell you. But the fact is, a quarter million people were intrigued enough by a game TOTALLY based around real-cash purchases of almost all ingame items that they tried it out - and that game has never seen a single retail sale. Every single person who has tried that game has done so via download, and the advertising has been almost totally word of mouth.
In Asia, it is not at all uncommon to see players forced to make micropurchases to pay for things in a game. It's an accepted method of paying for games there.
It's coming to the US as well. The Xbox2 Live system will be one of the first big steps, but you'd better believe there are already games in development to use this system. And the market is definately there.
But these are games built on the idea of real cash for game items. Players coming to them will come there knowing that is what the game is about. They will enter the game understanding that it is simply part of gameplay, and when they pay a dollar for their new sword, they will recognize that they knew they'd be doing that when they started playing, and know everyone else is too.
IGE doesn't do that.
IGE has for the most part targeted games where the external sale of goods is strictly prohibited. It is against the rules. Whether or not those rules are well enforced, that makes people who break them cheaters. And those players who don't want to cheat - who follow the rules of the game - have what I feel is a fair reason to be extremely antagonistic toward those people who gain an unfair advantage (however large or small) through cheating.
I don't like playing with cheaters. I don't like websites which help promote cheating. People who buy and sell items in games where it is against the rules are cheating. Websites which help players do that promote cheating.
Regardless it cant be stopped.It can only be stopped by developers that make the games by installing safeguards.They cant even put in "code" to put up redflags when large currency transactions happen.Really the only way to stop it is to take the stance of WoW and be more proactive with it.Even if they corner the market and say offer gold at 75% off of what IGE sells it for it still screws the economy in game i suppose.
The devs are the ones who need to stop it not the players.By even letting it happen and looking the other way the developers of mmo's encourage the companies like IGE to keep doing it.
We could argue about this all week long but it doesnt mean a thing until a GM pops in and says "your banned for violating the EULA for buying/selling ingame items/currency".
For every 1000 accounts banned on WoW a 1000 more were made active for the sole purpose of farming gold.It is a market with a target consumer and only the developers of these games can put a stop to it.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Originally posted by Puoltry For every 1000 accounts banned on WoW a 1000 more were made active for the sole purpose of farming gold.It is a market with a target consumer and only the developers of these games can put a stop to it.
They cannot stop the intrinsic human motivation to barter time for money.
Look.....i play a game to get out of the real world.......now you get poeple in MMORPG's showing of that they have more money then you so they can buy better items then you and so are better. In MMORPG with only PvP this would have a great disavantege for the poeple who do not buy items using there own real money.
Originally posted by Etaanaru Originally posted by Hashman What exactly are people buying though? That's the grey area. Buying people's time, not the actual intellectual property? Personally I think that's crap. That is the equivalent of hiring a bank robber. You didn't break the law because you bought the bank robber's time and expertise, BS! Uhhh...yes...hiring a bank robber to rob a bank would be against the law. If a guy hires a hitman to kill his wife, the guy is most definitely breaking the law. The problem with selling in game items for real life money is that the value leaves the in game economy, in game money becomes less and less valuable because the one guy that buys all his money on Ebay can always outbid you (generally raising the prices, inflation). When the value of the item is transferred out of the game's economy, it affects the game's economy.
BS = BULLSHIT
It was a rhetorical sentence aimed at those who state it is not illegal.
Originally posted by Puoltry Regardless it cant be stopped.It can only be stopped by developers that make the games by installing safeguards.They cant even put in "code" to put up redflags when large currency transactions happen.Really the only way to stop it is to take the stance of WoW and be more proactive with it.Even if they corner the market and say offer gold at 75% off of what IGE sells it for it still screws the economy in game i suppose.The devs are the ones who need to stop it not the players.By even letting it happen and looking the other way the developers of mmo's encourage the companies like IGE to keep doing it.We could argue about this all week long but it doesnt mean a thing until a GM pops in and says "your banned for violating the EULA for buying/selling ingame items/currency".For every 1000 accounts banned on WoW a 1000 more were made active for the sole purpose of farming gold.It is a market with a target consumer and only the developers of these games can put a stop to it.
And the players can impact the developers how, precisely?
By building popular support for the developers taking action. By convincing other players - one person at a time, if necessary - that buying and selling items for real cash in games that don't allow it is cheating, and unethical conduct, and should be fought.
I've watched the threads here over the last month of this discussion, and seen the change here already. A month ago, most people were staunch supporters of IGE to do what they want, and MMORPG to advertise who they want. Now, 3/4 of responders say that IGE is basically a cheat site.
That's a huge change.
And if enough people change their minds about IGE and their ilk, we'll put a dent in their market. And in time, hopefully convince the developer crowd that its worth it to fight back against IGE actively.
Ok im not sayin IGE is not a form of cheating but reguardless of what you do and even if the site goes down etc. etc. You will still have those in game that will farm gold and stil ruin that games economy just due to the fact that they have no life other than within that particular game world so it is totally out of the players power reguardless of how much we bicker moan and complain to keep a stable economy within a game and yes it is up to developers to take a hold of the losers who think that because they farm and have the best ub3r gear in the game makes them somwhat more significant than those of us who actually do somthing with our lives so on that note have a great day ^.^
Ask games to police their subscribers and ban offenders.
Ask websites like MMORPG.com to not advertise cheat sites.
Ask otherwise respectable sites like Ebay to remove the sale of these products from their sites (EBay in particular is getting more responsive to this).
Turn public opinion against the cheaters and those who profit from assisting their cheating.
Educate players in ethical gameplay, and why cheating devalues the game experience for everyone.
Speak loud and clearly - let the offenders and developers know that this is not acceptable, and needs to be stopped.
Originally posted by Owyn I've watched the threads here over the last month of this discussion, and seen the change here already. A month ago, most people were staunch supporters of IGE to do what they want, and MMORPG to advertise who they want. Now, 3/4 of responders say that IGE is basically a cheat site.
To suggest that "most people were staunch supporters of IGE" at any time in the lifetime of this forum is ridiculous.
Further, to suggest that what people may post here in this forum is a representation of gamers as a whole is also ridiculous.
He didn't say "staunch supporters of IGE," he said "staunch supporters of IGE to do what they want." A bit different.
I would agree that changes are happening. My own sense is that the average gamer is just getting more seasoned on this topic. Shedding the "no harm, no foul" attitude toward cheats that we all learned in desktop games as they come into more direct contact with the realities of profit farming and purchased advancement in PvP games. And perhaps waking up a bit at some of the more aggressive control that cheat companies like IGE have been trying to exert.
I'd also agree that these forums aren't a very good representation of gamers as a whole. Going on the number of posts I've seen from honest gamers on other sites that feel permanently alienated by mmorpg.coms promotion of a cheat company, as well as a general sense of the cultures of the different forums I participate in, my impression is that the percentage of ebayers here is quite high compared to the mainstream community.
There's still obviously a lot of ethical gamers that come through here though, the return on this poll was encouraging.
Originally posted by Relent He didn't say "staunch supporters of IGE," he said "staunch supporters of IGE to do what they want." A bit different.
And how do you characterize that difference? I see no difference whatsoever.
Originally posted by Relent Going on the number of posts I've seen from honest gamers on other sites that feel permanently alienated by mmorpg.coms promotion of a cheat company, as well as a general sense of the cultures of the different forums I participate in, my impression is that the percentage of ebayers here is quite high compared to the mainstream community.
Why don't you quantify that with some information? How many posts? How many people? What forums and communities? Where are you gathering your observations from?
I'm very amused that you would think "that the percentage of ebayers here is quite high compared to the mainstream community." I have seen a preponderance of posts here that have decried the resale of virtual items, and only a few people who rebut those arguments at all. I have seen very few people suggest that they actually purchase virtual items with real world currency. It leaves me wondering if the real motive behind your perspective here is to stifle any advocacy, implied or explicit.
To clarify, Ian, "staunch supporters of IGE" implies people who actively use their services. "Staunch supporters of IGE's right to do what they want" implies a range of responses, from actual IGE customers through people who just don't feel IGE's actions negatively impact them, so the company should be allowed to continue as it has been. Or that was what I intended, anyway - sorry for any lack of clarity!
Not too long ago, I feel that many people here thought what IGE did was OK. That's based on what I saw from people responding to anti-IGE threads. The number if people who replied supporting IGE might not have been half, but it was close if not that high.
Now, I think things are already changing. I'd say the "anti-IGE crowd" is a much larger bulk of the posters here - maybe as high as 3/4 of the crowd. As people get more educated about the issues involved, support for IGE is diminishing. And while this set of forums may be a small percent of the overall gaming crowd, this community IS representative of a large chunk of the "hardcore" players who happen to be IGE's primary suppliers and customers. Not to mention that every little bit helps!
Originally posted by Owyn Not too long ago, I feel that many people here thought what IGE did was OK. That's based on what I saw from people responding to anti-IGE threads. The number if people who replied supporting IGE might not have been half, but it was close if not that high.
Personally, I think you are deluded in that perception. I have never seen anything even remotely larger than a small minority of people who have voiced anything other than disdain for virtual resale of items. It's been that way for quite a long while.
which was started under two months ago, the number of people responding who either support IGE or are ambivalent about IGE are prety high. Proportionally, I think they number at least as high as those who are anti-IGE.
But I suspect, based on more recent threads, that support for IGE-type companies is eroding steadily.
Originally posted by Owyn If you look at this thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm?load=forums&loadClass=35&loadForum=51&loadThread=34122which was started under two months ago, the number of people responding who either support IGE or are ambivalent about IGE are prety high. Proportionally, I think they number at least as high as those who are anti-IGE.But I suspect, based on more recent threads, that support for IGE-type companies is eroding steadily.
You are seeing what you want to see. I see the same smattering of opinions on both sides, and little change or difference. I also see the same trends of people (myself included) making the same comments then and now. I also remember month after month of this topic coming up with the same outcries with the same complaints.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, because trends aren't empirical.
In response to the question about my motives. I imagine the answer is the same as why this subject keeps popping up, and it mostly has to do with that ugly IGE banner up at the top of the page.
There was a lot of rhetoric from the mmorpg.com staff earlier this week about community. I saw things like "conscience" and "best interest of our community" given as reasons for actions. I also remember a post on another site that proclaimed a "zero tolerance policy" toward people who point out cheats.
What I hope is that someday the mmorpg.com staff recognizes how promoting IGE puts them into conflict with those stated principles and that they will change their position about it. That is isn't in the best interest of their community. That most of their readers regard what IGE does as cheating. That that banner alienates and drives away the most honest and principled gamers in their community, while attracting and encouraging farmers and cheats.
And if that never happens, to at least keep raising awareness of how a small number of cheaters are changing MMOGs for the rest of us. And to encourage honest gamers to draw their own lines and make their own stands rather than ignoring the problem, so that we might manage to keep some aspects of the games fun for ourselves.
Originally posted by Relent That most of their readers regard what IGE does as cheating.
I dispute that claim. How can you know what the majority of readers know? Neither a poll nor forum posts will even scratch the surface of the total of people who read this site. I would venture to guess that most people who visit this site never even read these forums. Forum communities are typically a minority faction, and a vocal minority who typically represent a contentious if not disputative mindset.
Originally posted by Relent That that banner alienates and drives away the most honest and principled gamers in their community, while attracting and encouraging farmers and cheats.
I think you put far too much weight on the effect of banners. I don't have Flash installed on my Firefox browser, and I don't see a large portion of ads. The few that I do read, I almost never click. Those that I don't tend to like, I simply ignore, and that is the default action I take on almost all ads.
In fact, the only time I usually ever look critically at any of these ads tends to be when someone comes along with an axe to grind. Pimps Lord is a very good example of an ad that I never even saw until someone came here to claim how it demeaned the mmorpg.com staff and community. And even in that instance, Craig McGregor opened a topic and a poll to get the pulse of respondants...and it was heavily weighted toward "let it be."
You have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to share your opinion. I do not fault you for your feelings on this issue...but I do take issue with the trend of insistance that "something be done about it."
To those that insist on quoting the tired mantra of "concience" and best for the community concerning mmorpg.com having the IGE ad's, you might want to Read my post on Page 2, Or at least the part of it where I specifically address that. Regardless of if you do or do not Agree with my opinion, concerning IGE and companies like them. The point I made about why mmorpg really has no alternative but to allow ad's like that stands valid. If you read the post I sincerely doubt many if any of you are willing/capable of fronting that kind of cash over a "morality" issue.
Apparently a topic beaten to death and while I should continue my journey past...I cannot.
All comments, if while seeming like an obvious point, are strictly my views on the matter. I would go so far as to say that I am not actually making an argument for or against because the question posed is more interpetive. Hence, below are listed my series of interpetations and views.
A site like IGE is a provider of services that a real world economy supports.
If there were no real economic value behind it, the site would cease to exist. Businesses before and after the internet have ceased to be while others thrive. Reasons why IGE as a company thrives. They are a professional company and are beginning to market themselves as such. They have been in business for x number of years and now advertise a reputation of being transactionally honest. They post their awards and certifications. You can even donate your items and currency back into cash to donate to a non profit organization.
They have an entire infrastructure that supports their business. Live customer service, 24 hour assistance, ecommerce inputs (their payment methodology), a marketing budget (the banner a case in point), account creation (which by the way is more of a way to trend purchasing habits than anything else). Why would a company like IGE even concieve of the concept of an account for their site except that there was a customer demand for it. Now take the number of games x the number of servers each of those games support. Begin to factor all those items as departments, departments that have organizational structure, employees, management, executives, software, hardware, servers...The operational costs of all the items that just a cursory glance at their website will reveal that IGE is a real business and they make a LOT of money doing what they do. This is not a random business model, and it must be profitable.
Specific to the question of whether or not it is cheating, cheating is an ethical question which makes it subjective to the interpetation. Some of which have been very clearly articulated IE. If the game policy prohibits it and you persist then you are cheating. Given the fact that IGE headquarters out of Hong Kong removes it from legal recourse actually being taken until matters of intellectual property, prosecution and extradition of violation for those items becomes commonplace.
In the meantime, having started my MMO gaming hobby with Lineage 2 (so not quite a newcomer but not a weathered veteran), there was a game that would appear as though it was custom built for farmers. That is my hindsight observation having played other games since then which have no where near the blatant 'farming' behavior that was in L2.
There are varying degrees of what the gaming experience should be but in the end, it is a game. I find this converation to be fascinating because this exhibits very strong opinions, mostly against. At the end of the day I equate the farmers who work for companies like IGE to be the same as underpaid factory workers, I imagine that their working conditions are not so great and they are likely clocked to be on their machines the entire duration of their shift and play in areas or farm specific mobs because someone is telling them that the optimized rate of Gold aqquisition per hour is x.
We play the games because it is our luxury and hobby, that entire business organization model outlined above, including those that play the games do so because at the end of the day, being employed by IGE is just a job for them because they have to pay the rent and feed their families.
I will apologize in advance as this was more of a soliloquy since I so very rarely come to the actual forums within MMORPG.COM.
Personally, I cant wait until someone can put an end to it. ITS A GAME. lol there is no way in hell im gonna give the money i make for working 40 hours a week to some punk to play video games all day and make money. It must be nice to have an income based on that huh?
Nothing really "wacko" about it. I TOTALLY understand the desire to purchase items to improve your game experience.
Think about it: - How many people pay premium prices for sports cars or SUVs? They pay more for the vehicle, and more for the gas, mostly for the extra pleasure they get from driving/owning the vehicle. In the overwhelming majority of all cases, such a purchase is not an investment (cards, especially new ones, depreciate too quickly; only classics are investment material). The extra money - sometimes tens of thousands of dollars - is spent on nothing more than entertainment value of driving a snazzier vehicle.
- How many people buy vacation homes simply as status symbols? It's far cheaper to rent a home for a vacation now and again, but the vacation home business is a strong one nonetheless.
- How many people buy diamonds every year? Go buy a diamond from a local jewelry store, pop it out of the ring, and take it to a pro jeweler for appraisal (the gold in a ring is near worthless - maybe $10-20 in most cases). You'll be surprised how little your "investment" is really worth most of the time.
- How many people buy new motorcycles every year? Or buy cool new add-ons for their bikes? Or spend enormous sums of money on gear or clothes to wear riding? These are not investments - they are expenses spent on an entertainment.
- How about family vacations? Sports gear? Movies? Dinner out?
Oh no - I totally understand the desire to spend extra money. It has nothing to do with investment (in most cases, anyway), and nothing to do with the items bought having any real, persistant value. It has everything to do with time equalling money, and the common opinion that money spent in a way which increases fun is a good thing.
Put another way, if a game has a boring routine to go through (treadmill) to get a certain item - say it takes 20 hours on average. And you earn $20 an hour. It's literally worth $400 of your time to NOT be bored sitting there farming to get that item. First, because you're not spending 20 hours you could be doing other work. Second, because you are enjoying your entertainment time that much more, for NOT having to go through the 20 mind-numbing hours.
All that said, until such a time as game companies say it is OK to buy and sell items in this way, it is still cheating. It's against the rules, and gives an unfair advantage to those players who don't care to follow the rules. Just because a player does not like the rule that you only get three strikes in baseball, does not mean they should get four strikes whenever they play. It would be cheating, and unfair unless every player was allowed to get four strikes. Until such time as it's OK by the game rules to sell/buy items from an MMO, it's just not fair to the players who play by the rules.
That means that in my eyes, at least, IGE and companies like them are despicable. They are worse than the cheaters themselves - they are a company which profits from and encourages players to act in an unethical manner.
That was a long paragraph and a lot of wasted time to call people buying game "credits"unethical.Heck i might care if it really impacted me in real life.You could have been PLAYING a game and possibly leveled up in the amount of time it took to compose that.
Since it doesnt affect me in the real world ,well, ethics be damned!!
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Comments
Oh yeah the "majority" is against it:
Analysts say the money is good -- perhaps too good to pass up, whether a publisher likes the concept or not.
"We believe that an online marketplace will provide varying high-margin incremental revenue opportunities for all of the major video game publishers with the Xbox 2 over the next five years," American Technology Research analyst P.J. McNealy said in a recent note.
Some publishers have estimated the potential for an additional $5 million in revenue per game by offering an extra level to an already released title. That potentially could be structured as a microtransaction.
That plan could be a drop in the bucket, though. Ferroni said it was conceivable that someday, the Xbox marketplace would let users trade and sell among themselves.
That paradigm already exists for PC games, which often allow for trading of virtual items. Castronova estimates that players pay between $100 million and $800 million in cash to buy such items on trading and auction sites like eBay.
"What they're saying to developers is if you don't design this into the game the fan site community, these external people, will capture this money stream," Castronova said.
Thats why they are spending 100 to 800 million on virtual items becuase they are against it.Seems to me it is acceptable with the revenue stream providing the evidence to prove it:)
Heres the link to the rest of the article:
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/03/19/xbox_store_seen_opening_new_gaming_revenue_streams/
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
Your reply is nonsensical. Out-of-game sales still only represent 10-15% of gamers, the majority doesn't participate.
Obviously, those players that are goofy enough to pay their way through a game do represent a fantastic cash crop. And publishers are getting ready to help you out. It works all around. Although it is boggling how you can read all that without any of what it really means sinking in.
There will still always be competitive games tailored for the rest of us however. The trick is learning how to separate farmers and cheaters from the games and the gamers that don't want them.
Puoltry, you're argueing a different issue.
I believe most players would probably not mind at all to see the selling of ingame items for real money. It's been shown to be a very successful way to charge for a game. Instead of monthly fees, the game company charges for your sword - or for a new spell - or for access to a certain dungeon - or ownership of a piece of land - or whatever.
Project Entropia has had 230,000 downloads. Whether most of those people stayed or not, I couldn't tell you.
But the fact is, a quarter million people were intrigued enough by a game TOTALLY based around real-cash purchases of almost all ingame items that they tried it out - and that game has never seen a single retail sale. Every single person who has tried that game has done so via download, and the advertising has been almost totally word of mouth.
In Asia, it is not at all uncommon to see players forced to make micropurchases to pay for things in a game. It's an accepted method of paying for games there.
It's coming to the US as well. The Xbox2 Live system will be one of the first big steps, but you'd better believe there are already games in development to use this system. And the market is definately there.
But these are games built on the idea of real cash for game items. Players coming to them will come there knowing that is what the game is about. They will enter the game understanding that it is simply part of gameplay, and when they pay a dollar for their new sword, they will recognize that they knew they'd be doing that when they started playing, and know everyone else is too.
IGE doesn't do that.
IGE has for the most part targeted games where the external sale of goods is strictly prohibited. It is against the rules. Whether or not those rules are well enforced, that makes people who break them cheaters. And those players who don't want to cheat - who follow the rules of the game - have what I feel is a fair reason to be extremely antagonistic toward those people who gain an unfair advantage (however large or small) through cheating.
I don't like playing with cheaters.
I don't like websites which help promote cheating.
People who buy and sell items in games where it is against the rules are cheating.
Websites which help players do that promote cheating.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Regardless it cant be stopped.It can only be stopped by developers that make the games by installing safeguards.They cant even put in "code" to put up redflags when large currency transactions happen.Really the only way to stop it is to take the stance of WoW and be more proactive with it.Even if they corner the market and say offer gold at 75% off of what IGE sells it for it still screws the economy in game i suppose.
The devs are the ones who need to stop it not the players.By even letting it happen and looking the other way the developers of mmo's encourage the companies like IGE to keep doing it.
We could argue about this all week long but it doesnt mean a thing until a GM pops in and says "your banned for violating the EULA for buying/selling ingame items/currency".
For every 1000 accounts banned on WoW a 1000 more were made active for the sole purpose of farming gold.It is a market with a target consumer and only the developers of these games can put a stop to it.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
Look.....i play a game to get out of the real world.......now you get poeple in MMORPG's showing of that they have more money then you so they can buy better items then you and so are better. In MMORPG with only PvP this would have a great disavantege for the poeple who do not buy items using there own real money.
BS = BULLSHIT
It was a rhetorical sentence aimed at those who state it is not illegal.
And the players can impact the developers how, precisely?
By building popular support for the developers taking action. By convincing other players - one person at a time, if necessary - that buying and selling items for real cash in games that don't allow it is cheating, and unethical conduct, and should be fought.
I've watched the threads here over the last month of this discussion, and seen the change here already. A month ago, most people were staunch supporters of IGE to do what they want, and MMORPG to advertise who they want. Now, 3/4 of responders say that IGE is basically a cheat site.
That's a huge change.
And if enough people change their minds about IGE and their ilk, we'll put a dent in their market. And in time, hopefully convince the developer crowd that its worth it to fight back against IGE actively.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Ok im not sayin IGE is not a form of cheating but reguardless of what you do and even if the site goes down etc. etc. You will still have those in game that will farm gold and stil ruin that games economy just due to the fact that they have no life other than within that particular game world so it is totally out of the players power reguardless of how much we bicker moan and complain to keep a stable economy within a game and yes it is up to developers to take a hold of the losers who think that because they farm and have the best ub3r gear in the game makes them somwhat more significant than those of us who actually do somthing with our lives so on that note have a great day ^.^
(Yeah i know i dont punctuate im to lazy)
Ask games to police their subscribers and ban offenders.
Ask websites like MMORPG.com to not advertise cheat sites.
Ask otherwise respectable sites like Ebay to remove the sale of these products from their sites (EBay in particular is getting more responsive to this).
Turn public opinion against the cheaters and those who profit from assisting their cheating.
Educate players in ethical gameplay, and why cheating devalues the game experience for everyone.
Speak loud and clearly - let the offenders and developers know that this is not acceptable, and needs to be stopped.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Further, to suggest that what people may post here in this forum is a representation of gamers as a whole is also ridiculous.
He didn't say "staunch supporters of IGE," he said "staunch supporters of IGE to do what they want." A bit different.
I would agree that changes are happening. My own sense is that the average gamer is just getting more seasoned on this topic. Shedding the "no harm, no foul" attitude toward cheats that we all learned in desktop games as they come into more direct contact with the realities of profit farming and purchased advancement in PvP games. And perhaps waking up a bit at some of the more aggressive control that cheat companies like IGE have been trying to exert.
I'd also agree that these forums aren't a very good representation of gamers as a whole. Going on the number of posts I've seen from honest gamers on other sites that feel permanently alienated by mmorpg.coms promotion of a cheat company, as well as a general sense of the cultures of the different forums I participate in, my impression is that the percentage of ebayers here is quite high compared to the mainstream community.
There's still obviously a lot of ethical gamers that come through here though, the return on this poll was encouraging.
Why don't you quantify that with some information? How many posts? How many people? What forums and communities? Where are you gathering your observations from?
I'm very amused that you would think "that the percentage of ebayers here is quite high compared to the mainstream community." I have seen a preponderance of posts here that have decried the resale of virtual items, and only a few people who rebut those arguments at all. I have seen very few people suggest that they actually purchase virtual items with real world currency. It leaves me wondering if the real motive behind your perspective here is to stifle any advocacy, implied or explicit.
To clarify, Ian, "staunch supporters of IGE" implies people who actively use their services. "Staunch supporters of IGE's right to do what they want" implies a range of responses, from actual IGE customers through people who just don't feel IGE's actions negatively impact them, so the company should be allowed to continue as it has been. Or that was what I intended, anyway - sorry for any lack of clarity!
Not too long ago, I feel that many people here thought what IGE did was OK. That's based on what I saw from people responding to anti-IGE threads. The number if people who replied supporting IGE might not have been half, but it was close if not that high.
Now, I think things are already changing. I'd say the "anti-IGE crowd" is a much larger bulk of the posters here - maybe as high as 3/4 of the crowd. As people get more educated about the issues involved, support for IGE is diminishing. And while this set of forums may be a small percent of the overall gaming crowd, this community IS representative of a large chunk of the "hardcore" players who happen to be IGE's primary suppliers and customers. Not to mention that every little bit helps!
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Personally, I think you are deluded in that perception. I have never seen anything even remotely larger than a small minority of people who have voiced anything other than disdain for virtual resale of items. It's been that way for quite a long while.
If you look at this thread:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm?load=forums&loadClass=35&loadForum=51&loadThread=34122
which was started under two months ago, the number of people responding who either support IGE or are ambivalent about IGE are prety high. Proportionally, I think they number at least as high as those who are anti-IGE.
But I suspect, based on more recent threads, that support for IGE-type companies is eroding steadily.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
You are seeing what you want to see. I see the same smattering of opinions on both sides, and little change or difference. I also see the same trends of people (myself included) making the same comments then and now. I also remember month after month of this topic coming up with the same outcries with the same complaints.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, because trends aren't empirical.
In response to the question about my motives. I imagine the answer is the same as why this subject keeps popping up, and it mostly has to do with that ugly IGE banner up at the top of the page.
There was a lot of rhetoric from the mmorpg.com staff earlier this week about community. I saw things like "conscience" and "best interest of our community" given as reasons for actions. I also remember a post on another site that proclaimed a "zero tolerance policy" toward people who point out cheats.
What I hope is that someday the mmorpg.com staff recognizes how promoting IGE puts them into conflict with those stated principles and that they will change their position about it. That is isn't in the best interest of their community. That most of their readers regard what IGE does as cheating. That that banner alienates and drives away the most honest and principled gamers in their community, while attracting and encouraging farmers and cheats.
And if that never happens, to at least keep raising awareness of how a small number of cheaters are changing MMOGs for the rest of us. And to encourage honest gamers to draw their own lines and make their own stands rather than ignoring the problem, so that we might manage to keep some aspects of the games fun for ourselves.
I dispute that claim. How can you know what the majority of readers know? Neither a poll nor forum posts will even scratch the surface of the total of people who read this site. I would venture to guess that most people who visit this site never even read these forums. Forum communities are typically a minority faction, and a vocal minority who typically represent a contentious if not disputative mindset.
I think you put far too much weight on the effect of banners. I don't have Flash installed on my Firefox browser, and I don't see a large portion of ads. The few that I do read, I almost never click. Those that I don't tend to like, I simply ignore, and that is the default action I take on almost all ads.
In fact, the only time I usually ever look critically at any of these ads tends to be when someone comes along with an axe to grind. Pimps Lord is a very good example of an ad that I never even saw until someone came here to claim how it demeaned the mmorpg.com staff and community. And even in that instance, Craig McGregor opened a topic and a poll to get the pulse of respondants...and it was heavily weighted toward "let it be."
You have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to share your opinion. I do not fault you for your feelings on this issue...but I do take issue with the trend of insistance that "something be done about it."
Apparently a topic beaten to death and while I should continue my journey past...I cannot.
All comments, if while seeming like an obvious point, are strictly my views on the matter. I would go so far as to say that I am not actually making an argument for or against because the question posed is more interpetive. Hence, below are listed my series of interpetations and views.
A site like IGE is a provider of services that a real world economy supports.
If there were no real economic value behind it, the site would cease to exist. Businesses before and after the internet have ceased to be while others thrive. Reasons why IGE as a company thrives.
They are a professional company and are beginning to market themselves as such. They have been in business for x number of years and now advertise a reputation of being transactionally honest. They post their awards and certifications. You can even donate your items and currency back into cash to donate to a non profit organization.
They have an entire infrastructure that supports their business. Live customer service, 24 hour assistance, ecommerce inputs (their payment methodology), a marketing budget (the banner a case in point), account creation (which by the way is more of a way to trend purchasing habits than anything else). Why would a company like IGE even concieve of the concept of an account for their site except that there was a customer demand for it. Now take the number of games x the number of servers each of those games support. Begin to factor all those items as departments, departments that have organizational structure, employees, management, executives, software, hardware, servers...The operational costs of all the items that just a cursory glance at their website will reveal that IGE is a real business and they make a LOT of money doing what they do. This is not a random business model, and it must be profitable.
Specific to the question of whether or not it is cheating, cheating is an ethical question which makes it subjective to the interpetation. Some of which have been very clearly articulated IE. If the game policy prohibits it and you persist then you are cheating. Given the fact that IGE headquarters out of Hong Kong removes it from legal recourse actually being taken until matters of intellectual property, prosecution and extradition of violation for those items becomes commonplace.
In the meantime, having started my MMO gaming hobby with Lineage 2 (so not quite a newcomer but not a weathered veteran), there was a game that would appear as though it was custom built for farmers. That is my hindsight observation having played other games since then which have no where near the blatant 'farming' behavior that was in L2.
There are varying degrees of what the gaming experience should be but in the end, it is a game. I find this converation to be fascinating because this exhibits very strong opinions, mostly against. At the end of the day I equate the farmers who work for companies like IGE to be the same as underpaid factory workers, I imagine that their working conditions are not so great and they are likely clocked to be on their machines the entire duration of their shift and play in areas or farm specific mobs because someone is telling them that the optimized rate of Gold aqquisition per hour is x.
We play the games because it is our luxury and hobby, that entire business organization model outlined above, including those that play the games do so because at the end of the day, being employed by IGE is just a job for them because they have to pay the rent and feed their families.
I will apologize in advance as this was more of a soliloquy since I so very rarely come to the actual forums within MMORPG.COM.
Infensus Scriptus
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"
Personally, I cant wait until someone can put an end to it. ITS A GAME. lol there is no way in hell im gonna give the money i make for working 40 hours a week to some punk to play video games all day and make money. It must be nice to have an income based on that huh?
Fricken Wacko's
Nothing really "wacko" about it. I TOTALLY understand the desire to purchase items to improve your game experience.
Think about it:
- How many people pay premium prices for sports cars or SUVs? They pay more for the vehicle, and more for the gas, mostly for the extra pleasure they get from driving/owning the vehicle. In the overwhelming majority of all cases, such a purchase is not an investment (cards, especially new ones, depreciate too quickly; only classics are investment material). The extra money - sometimes tens of thousands of dollars - is spent on nothing more than entertainment value of driving a snazzier vehicle.
- How many people buy vacation homes simply as status symbols? It's far cheaper to rent a home for a vacation now and again, but the vacation home business is a strong one nonetheless.
- How many people buy diamonds every year? Go buy a diamond from a local jewelry store, pop it out of the ring, and take it to a pro jeweler for appraisal (the gold in a ring is near worthless - maybe $10-20 in most cases). You'll be surprised how little your "investment" is really worth most of the time.
- How many people buy new motorcycles every year? Or buy cool new add-ons for their bikes? Or spend enormous sums of money on gear or clothes to wear riding? These are not investments - they are expenses spent on an entertainment.
- How about family vacations? Sports gear? Movies? Dinner out?
Oh no - I totally understand the desire to spend extra money. It has nothing to do with investment (in most cases, anyway), and nothing to do with the items bought having any real, persistant value. It has everything to do with time equalling money, and the common opinion that money spent in a way which increases fun is a good thing.
Put another way, if a game has a boring routine to go through (treadmill) to get a certain item - say it takes 20 hours on average. And you earn $20 an hour. It's literally worth $400 of your time to NOT be bored sitting there farming to get that item. First, because you're not spending 20 hours you could be doing other work. Second, because you are enjoying your entertainment time that much more, for NOT having to go through the 20 mind-numbing hours.
All that said, until such a time as game companies say it is OK to buy and sell items in this way, it is still cheating. It's against the rules, and gives an unfair advantage to those players who don't care to follow the rules. Just because a player does not like the rule that you only get three strikes in baseball, does not mean they should get four strikes whenever they play. It would be cheating, and unfair unless every player was allowed to get four strikes. Until such time as it's OK by the game rules to sell/buy items from an MMO, it's just not fair to the players who play by the rules.
That means that in my eyes, at least, IGE and companies like them are despicable. They are worse than the cheaters themselves - they are a company which profits from and encourages players to act in an unethical manner.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Did you really try to bring"ethics"into this?
That was a long paragraph and a lot of wasted time to call people buying game "credits"unethical.Heck i might care if it really impacted me in real life.You could have been PLAYING a game and possibly leveled up in the amount of time it took to compose that.
Since it doesnt affect me in the real world ,well, ethics be damned!!
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)