A lot of people complain nowadays about anything in a game that isn't them - at that very moment - getting an easy epic. They don't want to quest. They don't want to kill monsters. They don't want to travel. They don't want to explore. They hate any leveling system. If it's anything other than them getting handed something or better yet, buying it in a RMT or out of an item mall, omg it's a grind. Not only is it a grind, they are being "forced."
Those type of players aren't really new or the product of a weaker generation of gamers. It's just that in the older games we had a name for them - noobs. In those games, you couldn't fail your way to success. So they would hit level 30 and discover that their whining and failplay wasn't cutting it, and they would wash out. That, or they would L2P and stop sniviling.
But today we let the noobs reach max level and load them up with charity epics, which makes them think they are gamers. And then we have to listen to them complain that even ez-mode isn't enough.
(Note: I use "you" in the general sense here)
Some very good points in there.
What I'd like to add is that the "horrible grind" is very often the result of the players' own choice to play that way.
In any MMO I've played, there has been a variety of things to do - some more than others. You could quest, harvest, explore, craft, level, PvP, etc. etc. I've only ever become bored in a MMO because the options they provided weren't very enjoyable to me. It was never because I was "omg forced to do the same thing over and over".
Here's the root of it... many of the same players who complain about MMOs being awful grinds are feeling that way because *that's all they're doing*. Why? Because of another misconception that goes hand-in-hand with it: "End game is all that matters and the goal is to get there as fast as possible".
So, because all they care about is getting to end-game ASAP, their means to accomplish that goal is to find out the quickest and most efficient way to do so. That means, pretty much 100% of the time, means grinding on the same kind of content, whatever gives the fastest and easiest xp, over and over to level up. There could be any number of other options they could partake in... any number of other kinds of content the game offers. They won't touch it and will - quite adamantly - deem it a waste of time because it doesn't help them level any faster.
Final Fantasy XI, for one example, offers at least 23 different forms of content. Each is an individual activity with its own goals, its own rulesets, its own areas and rewards. Players who only care about getting their jobs to 75 (or 80 now) will ignore almost all of that, and focus only on what gets them to that level cap as quickly as possible.
Then they come back and complain that the game is too much of a grind. Meanwhile, there are others who are playing the game, experiencing everything - or at least trying to - that the game offers, are having a blast and couldn't care less how long it takes them to reach level cap. They're having too much fun along the way.
How about PvP MMOs? I'm sure someone's going to say "that might work for PvE MMOs, but not for PvP MMOs where the end-game is the main part of the game". Well, in my opinion, a PvP-focused MMO has failed if it's designed where end-game is the only place PvP can take place. I've also never played a PvP MMO with any such restrictions before.
In every PvP MMO I've tried, there *are opportunities for PvP prior to level cap. Like in PvE games, the *players* have decided that "end-game PvP is all that matters", and so they'll spend all their time madly grinding away to reach level cap, when they could be - gasp - PvP'ing against others at their own level, at around any level.
I'm seeing that mentality a lot in some people playing Darkfall. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from running out of a city or town, finding others your own relative skill level, and fighting them, at any point in the game. Nothing at all. Yet, there are entire threads for that game where people are complaining about how long it takes to "become competitive with the vets so they can start PvP'ing". Nothing at all in that game mandates you have to be competitive against vets before you can start PvP'ing. Nothing. It's a restriction they've placed on themself, and then blame the developer for. They're crying foul over a self-imposed restriction, born of that same "have to get to end game as fast as possible" mindset.
I played Lineage 2 quite a lot.... while many people were certainly eager to get to the higher end PvP content (castle sieges, etc), they by no means felt they had to "wait 'til they got there to start'. You saw PvP at just about every level range in L2, every day.
I've felt "the grind" setting in with just about any MMO I've played. The difference is, when what I'm doing starts feeling repetitious and grindy, I do somethin else for a while. That's the trick. Mix it up. Of course, that requires you to also not be in a hurry to get to level cap... that, no one else can help you with.
Here's a little secret, to those who haven't already figured it out: If you approach a game in a way that requires a lot of grinding, it's going to feel like a grind. Pretty simple math, really. Hate grind? Stop grinding!
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
“Until Developers gain a Next Gen MMORPG development engines that make Development faster and easier”. OP
Game developers are often using home-made engines and in case they are licensing well known packages (CryEngine, Unreal, Source, Gamebryo) they are implementing a lot of significant engine modifications working usually in tight cooperation with engine developers. Indeed, engine developers are doing their best to make their products more user-friendly for game developers (e.g. via incorporating of generally used scripting languages like Lua, game physics solutions like Havok or PhysX, lip-sync and facial animation approaches like FaceFX, etc.). However, these efforts are not able to compete with the obvious tendency of rapid increase of complexity of game engines: better graphics (e.g. numerous shaders, rendering features), collision detection/propagation systems, implementation of more detailed and higher polygon 3D models requires serious changes in LOD (level of details) approaches, and so on.
Compare WoW cartoon textures and 3D models with graphic quality of coming or recently released games: Aion, APB, Tera, Rifts, GW2 and others.
Grind isn't bad. Unless it's a grind used to cover up the game's flaws (lack of content, etc). Some people seem to forget that MMOs are supposed to be a form of enjoyement for the players, and when the grind becomes this :
Well players starts to lose patience and annoyed by what is then referred to as Grind.
If there is nothing else to do but grind mobs all day, it's just not an MMO anymore, it's a part-time job where instead of getting paid, you're the one paying.
Really, I dont understand the big complaint about grinding in this genre. MMORPG are suppose to have no end, and everlasting character development in some way.
But how could something like this be in a MMORPG that doesnt have grinding of ANY KIND?
Isnt Grinding a term for doing something over and over? Well what else would you do in a never ending game?
Only way for a MMO not to have grinding, was if developers made their games have
1 time Daily 24hour timed events that progress over the course of the day,
^---this---^ *(365.25)*(Number of Years the game is going to be in the market.)
That would take a ton of resources in todays' standards of MMORPG development.
Until Developers gain a Next Gen MMORPG development engines that make Development faster and easier,
I dont see such a thing happening any time soon.
It's because some people have school, work, or college. If you only have one hour to play and your shouting for a party, what are the chances are of you being accepted and being inside the dungeon before you only have 30 mins left? Slim to none in most cases, if your a new player. This is why they complain about it. This also is why you see people call some high levels "No lifes." The reason the exp is so low is because people who play more than 1+ hours reach the end faster than everyone else then complain about reaching end game when it's supposed to be everlasting.
Point I am trying to make? Both sides eventually complain. Low levels and high levels. (So why focus on only low level players and not also focus on high level players in this thread? It's disturbing how much high levels can complain and everyone still focuses on the low level player complaints as being too whiny. Even if MMORPG's are supposed to be everlasting, they still have logical points at times and get flamed for it. Another thing is you could argue that it's the players fault for reaching endgame faster than everyone else.
I have to agree on this next statement/question though to high level players.
What else do you expect putting hours of work into a MMORPG?
And this statement/question to low level players.
What else did you expect in an everlasting MMORPG?
The problem is the OP doesn't seems to understand what "Grind" really means. Over the years the term "Grind" got thrown everywhere for everything without really being use properly. Like the term "Hardcore" isn't use anymore for what it means.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Grind is ok, until it stops being fun. I don't want to have to grind out levels with Kill x boars, or just by killing the boars.
An example I have seen is Mario, the original side scrolling games. That was grind, repatative platforming with the same enemies and mechanics layered differently. But it was fun, because of the way it was presented. You played so long as it was fun, and to save the princess from Bowser.
MMOs should take this exact philosophy to heart, it should be fun. The point of playing the game is NOT to stick your sword into things until the numbers don't go up. It should be fun when you go into a dungeon, it should be your choice, not because it has a slight chance to drop an item that gives you better stats, in order to do another dungeon in order to get weps with better stats, ect.
That is why PvP is so fun, you don't play PvP to lvl, or usually to get better gear. You play it because its fun, its exhilarating, and you are playing against other (some semi) intelligent people. Shooters have known this for years, look at CS, there is no leveling there, no unlocking, no new shiny piece of armor that gives +5 to epeen. That being said, grind always has its place. There is that satisfaction you get when you go *ding*, or when you find that next piece of epic gear. The problem is finding the right ammount of reward for leveling and gear grind. Some games give you new levels and gear with the next expansion, like WoW, others keep their level cap and never increase the stats on their weapons in expansions, like GW. I think you need something more in the middle.
(p.s I love it when my xp bar goes ding, great feeling.)
Well Fun is subjective.
Fun can be many different things.
Also PvP doesnt seem to draw in as many people as PvE mmo seem to do.
Comments
(Note: I use "you" in the general sense here)
Some very good points in there.
What I'd like to add is that the "horrible grind" is very often the result of the players' own choice to play that way.
In any MMO I've played, there has been a variety of things to do - some more than others. You could quest, harvest, explore, craft, level, PvP, etc. etc. I've only ever become bored in a MMO because the options they provided weren't very enjoyable to me. It was never because I was "omg forced to do the same thing over and over".
Here's the root of it... many of the same players who complain about MMOs being awful grinds are feeling that way because *that's all they're doing*. Why? Because of another misconception that goes hand-in-hand with it: "End game is all that matters and the goal is to get there as fast as possible".
So, because all they care about is getting to end-game ASAP, their means to accomplish that goal is to find out the quickest and most efficient way to do so. That means, pretty much 100% of the time, means grinding on the same kind of content, whatever gives the fastest and easiest xp, over and over to level up. There could be any number of other options they could partake in... any number of other kinds of content the game offers. They won't touch it and will - quite adamantly - deem it a waste of time because it doesn't help them level any faster.
Final Fantasy XI, for one example, offers at least 23 different forms of content. Each is an individual activity with its own goals, its own rulesets, its own areas and rewards. Players who only care about getting their jobs to 75 (or 80 now) will ignore almost all of that, and focus only on what gets them to that level cap as quickly as possible.
Then they come back and complain that the game is too much of a grind. Meanwhile, there are others who are playing the game, experiencing everything - or at least trying to - that the game offers, are having a blast and couldn't care less how long it takes them to reach level cap. They're having too much fun along the way.
How about PvP MMOs? I'm sure someone's going to say "that might work for PvE MMOs, but not for PvP MMOs where the end-game is the main part of the game". Well, in my opinion, a PvP-focused MMO has failed if it's designed where end-game is the only place PvP can take place. I've also never played a PvP MMO with any such restrictions before.
In every PvP MMO I've tried, there *are opportunities for PvP prior to level cap. Like in PvE games, the *players* have decided that "end-game PvP is all that matters", and so they'll spend all their time madly grinding away to reach level cap, when they could be - gasp - PvP'ing against others at their own level, at around any level.
I'm seeing that mentality a lot in some people playing Darkfall. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from running out of a city or town, finding others your own relative skill level, and fighting them, at any point in the game. Nothing at all. Yet, there are entire threads for that game where people are complaining about how long it takes to "become competitive with the vets so they can start PvP'ing". Nothing at all in that game mandates you have to be competitive against vets before you can start PvP'ing. Nothing. It's a restriction they've placed on themself, and then blame the developer for. They're crying foul over a self-imposed restriction, born of that same "have to get to end game as fast as possible" mindset.
I played Lineage 2 quite a lot.... while many people were certainly eager to get to the higher end PvP content (castle sieges, etc), they by no means felt they had to "wait 'til they got there to start'. You saw PvP at just about every level range in L2, every day.
I've felt "the grind" setting in with just about any MMO I've played. The difference is, when what I'm doing starts feeling repetitious and grindy, I do somethin else for a while. That's the trick. Mix it up. Of course, that requires you to also not be in a hurry to get to level cap... that, no one else can help you with.
Here's a little secret, to those who haven't already figured it out: If you approach a game in a way that requires a lot of grinding, it's going to feel like a grind. Pretty simple math, really. Hate grind? Stop grinding!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
“Until Developers gain a Next Gen MMORPG development engines that make Development faster and easier”. OP
Game developers are often using home-made engines and in case they are licensing well known packages (CryEngine, Unreal, Source, Gamebryo) they are implementing a lot of significant engine modifications working usually in tight cooperation with engine developers. Indeed, engine developers are doing their best to make their products more user-friendly for game developers (e.g. via incorporating of generally used scripting languages like Lua, game physics solutions like Havok or PhysX, lip-sync and facial animation approaches like FaceFX, etc.). However, these efforts are not able to compete with the obvious tendency of rapid increase of complexity of game engines: better graphics (e.g. numerous shaders, rendering features), collision detection/propagation systems, implementation of more detailed and higher polygon 3D models requires serious changes in LOD (level of details) approaches, and so on.
Compare WoW cartoon textures and 3D models with graphic quality of coming or recently released games: Aion, APB, Tera, Rifts, GW2 and others.
Grind isn't bad. Unless it's a grind used to cover up the game's flaws (lack of content, etc). Some people seem to forget that MMOs are supposed to be a form of enjoyement for the players, and when the grind becomes this :
Well players starts to lose patience and annoyed by what is then referred to as Grind.
If there is nothing else to do but grind mobs all day, it's just not an MMO anymore, it's a part-time job where instead of getting paid, you're the one paying.
It's because some people have school, work, or college. If you only have one hour to play and your shouting for a party, what are the chances are of you being accepted and being inside the dungeon before you only have 30 mins left? Slim to none in most cases, if your a new player. This is why they complain about it. This also is why you see people call some high levels "No lifes." The reason the exp is so low is because people who play more than 1+ hours reach the end faster than everyone else then complain about reaching end game when it's supposed to be everlasting.
Point I am trying to make? Both sides eventually complain. Low levels and high levels. (So why focus on only low level players and not also focus on high level players in this thread? It's disturbing how much high levels can complain and everyone still focuses on the low level player complaints as being too whiny. Even if MMORPG's are supposed to be everlasting, they still have logical points at times and get flamed for it. Another thing is you could argue that it's the players fault for reaching endgame faster than everyone else.
I have to agree on this next statement/question though to high level players.
What else do you expect putting hours of work into a MMORPG?
And this statement/question to low level players.
What else did you expect in an everlasting MMORPG?
The problem is the OP doesn't seems to understand what "Grind" really means. Over the years the term "Grind" got thrown everywhere for everything without really being use properly. Like the term "Hardcore" isn't use anymore for what it means.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Agreed. Old Maplestory playerbase was huge.