And yes, CaptainQuirk is correct. Since the event, I haven't been as active on the forums. Their credibility is at a low in my eyes. They are far from the "come let us reason" image they wish to portray. If only I could just tell you about some of their practices without having action taken against my account, I am confident you would understand a bit better.
looks like jacob got himself banned ....... again.
guess they had an agreement for him not to mention making the cryptic pr/marketing team look like the incompetents they are?
Or they are just weary of him pointing out their b.s. and making them look bad.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Pretty funny how the STO moderators infract/remove posts for the post containing content that violates the EULA and then fail to remove the post from quotes in subsequent replies. A donkey could do a better job at moderating but then we wouldn't see gems posted by the likes of Jacob.
Wait... so STO has had for a while ships that could only be acquired through the cash shop that are stronger than the ones that could be acquired in-game? And they say they don't want to favor P2W yet they had it for a while? *facepalm*
erm no
they ahd SKINS for ships and bridges in the shop, they made no difference to ship stats.
They then released Galaxy-X which is a T3 ship and flies like a brick, is lower stats that standard ship but people wanted it as it has a Cloak and fricking huge Lance Cannon that is amazzingly easy to avoid (since ever other ship can fly circles around it)
now the T5 ships are ready and are given ingame as rank rewards
We are wholeheartedly against the "pay to win" model and our balance designers are dedicated to making sure that items in the C-Store do not grant an unfair advantage over players who do not elect to purchase the items.
So the red matter capacitor and the auto defence thingy won't end up on the C-Store then? Of course they will.
Did you see the most recent STOked episode where Stahl was in front of whiteboards that had scribble and charts that had just been put on for the sake of it? Cmon, there aren't enough people working on STO now to need whiteboards.
1. Here we can see a chart of confidence in Bill Roper from an artificial high.
Amusing, but I think that you are giving Roper too high of a starting point; even if it is an artificial high. Remember when eveidence of STO's problems started appearing before beta began, people on the STO forums were ready to crucify him even though he had absolutely nothing to do with STO at the time (having been in charge of CO at that specific period). On the other hand, you are more than likely correct; Cryptic's esecutive team always have appeared to have had an overinflated sense of themselves.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
they ahd SKINS for ships and bridges in the shop, they made no difference to ship stats.
They then released Galaxy-X which is a T3 ship and flies like a brick, is lower stats that standard ship but people wanted it as it has a Cloak and fricking huge Lance Cannon that is amazzingly easy to avoid (since ever other ship can fly circles around it)
now the T5 ships are ready and are given ingame as rank rewards
Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't they been touting the Galaxy-X as a T5 ship, and not a T3 ship? Their comments seemed to indicate this.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
I fail to see the problem this time. You can either buy a great ship or get it in the game (with work I guess?).
That sounds right to me even if selling good stuff in a P2P cashshop is a rip off in itself.
There are a lot worse problems here, you must realize that anything you buy in a cash shop could get worse or even useless in the future in any game who has a shop.
I fail to see the problem this time. You can either buy a great ship or get it in the game (with work I guess?).
That sounds right to me even if selling good stuff in a P2P cashshop is a rip off in itself.
There are a lot worse problems here, you must realize that anything you buy in a cash shop could get worse or even useless in the future in any game who has a shop.
Actually, I don't think you can get that one in the game at all, unless they have just reversed their decision on it. What they announced was that you will soon be able to get several different ships in game (as free content) that make the $25.00 one pretty much worthless. Considering the journey the Galaxy-X has taken (first having to get five referral accounts to pay for a month, and then needing to cough up $25 to get it), I think those who have gotten it either way have a right to be a bit upset at Cryptic. Sure they were foolish to trust Cryptic in the first place, but that doesn't mean this wasn't a scumbag move on Cryptic's part.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
The standard Galaxy is a T4 Ship. The Galaxy X has the same amount of weapons and console slots, but with the addition of the Phaser Lance, Cloak, and the ability to use Dual Cannons. It is a refit that essentially bumps it up to tier 5. The standard Galaxy, Defiant, and Intrepid (all T4) are soon to be refitted as well, probably with their own unique special abilities. These are not supposed to be "better" than the Galaxy X, they are intended to be equivalent; seperate but equal, and only available to Admirals as Tier 5's.
Use my Referral Key for STO and get One Million In-Game Energy Credits! PM me for details.
I fail to see the problem this time. You can either buy a great ship or get it in the game (with work I guess?).
That sounds right to me even if selling good stuff in a P2P cashshop is a rip off in itself.
There are a lot worse problems here, you must realize that anything you buy in a cash shop could get worse or even useless in the future in any game who has a shop.
Actually, I don't think you can get that one in the game at all, unless they have just reversed their decision on it. What they announced was that you will soon be able to get several different ships in game (as free content) that make the $25.00 one pretty much worthless. Considering the journey the Galaxy-X has taken (first having to get five referral accounts to pay for a month, and then needing to cough up $25 to get it), I think those who have gotten it either way have a right to be a bit upset at Cryptic. Sure they were foolish to trust Cryptic in the first place, but that doesn't mean this wasn't a scumbag move on Cryptic's part.
Honestly, I'd love to see Cryptic start laying out their evil plans when they actually put something up to their customers...IE....you can get a super galaxy-X if you refer five friends, (btw, it's going on the C-store in 30 days)
Hey, you can get all these different exclusive perks and stuff, one perk for each box set you buy....(btw, they're all going to be on the C-store in a month or two)
Hey, you can get a LTS with a liberated borg player character (btw, we're goin got offer it for less without the borg skin probably before your birthday)
The standard Galaxy is a T4 Ship. The Galaxy X has the same amount of weapons and console slots, but with the addition of the Phaser Lance, Cloak, and the ability to use Dual Cannons. It is a refit that essentially bumps it up to tier 5. The standard Galaxy, Defiant, and Intrepid (all T4) are soon to be refitted as well, probably with their own unique special abilities. These are not supposed to be "better" than the Galaxy X, they are intended to be equivalent; seperate but equal, and only available to Admirals as Tier 5's.
So it's a T4 that operates as a T5? That explains a lot of the confusion then, and why I've seen claims that it was anything from a T3 to a T5. Do you happen to know if the other ship upgrades will have a reduced number of bridge slots as well? Posts from the STO forums state the Galaxy-X is a little light on the number of bridge slots compared to equivalent ships, though that may be due to the confusion about what exact tier it is at. If those newer ships have more bridge slots, and their own special abilities to boot, then I'd still say that those who bought the ship for it's capabilities got hosed on the deal as well. Spend $25, only to find out that you will be getting similar or better (even if it's just slightly better) for free? Heck even if the newer ones have the same number of bridge slots, plus different special powers, I'd still say the $25 price was a ripoff.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Honestly, I'd love to see Cryptic start laying out their evil plans when they actually put something up to their customers...IE....you can get a super galaxy-X if you refer five friends, (btw, it's going on the C-store in 30 days)
Hey, you can get all these different exclusive perks and stuff, one perk for each box set you buy....(btw, they're all going to be on the C-store in a month or two)
Hey, you can get a LTS with a liberated borg player character (btw, we're goin got offer it for less without the borg skin probably before your birthday)
Unfortunately they're not totally stupid; if they started doing that, then no one would buy anything from their C-store, and that is more than likely their primary source of income for STO these days.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Honestly, I'd love to see Cryptic start laying out their evil plans when they actually put something up to their customers...IE....you can get a super galaxy-X if you refer five friends, (btw, it's going on the C-store in 30 days)
Hey, you can get all these different exclusive perks and stuff, one perk for each box set you buy....(btw, they're all going to be on the C-store in a month or two)
Hey, you can get a LTS with a liberated borg player character (btw, we're goin got offer it for less without the borg skin probably before your birthday)
Unfortunately they're not totally stupid; if they started doing that, then no one would buy anything from their C-store, and that is more than likely their primary source of income for STO these days.
The subs will be the main source of income, not the C-Store.
Honestly, I'd love to see Cryptic start laying out their evil plans when they actually put something up to their customers...IE....you can get a super galaxy-X if you refer five friends, (btw, it's going on the C-store in 30 days)
Hey, you can get all these different exclusive perks and stuff, one perk for each box set you buy....(btw, they're all going to be on the C-store in a month or two)
Hey, you can get a LTS with a liberated borg player character (btw, we're goin got offer it for less without the borg skin probably before your birthday)
Unfortunately they're not totally stupid; if they started doing that, then no one would buy anything from their C-store, and that is more than likely their primary source of income for STO these days.
The subs will be the main source of income, not the C-Store.
Huh? In fact ..double huh? They don't have near enough "subs" to be making much money off this bit-o-crap. Anyone that logs into the game can plainly see that. It's Deadsville. All they have left is the C-store.
Just can't wait till the inevitable "we're going f2p and screwing you lifetimers over big time" from Craptic. I bet they'll offer the LTs Craptic dollars as compensation. What a scum sucking company they've become. Their employees should be embarrassed to work there.
Honestly, I'd love to see Cryptic start laying out their evil plans when they actually put something up to their customers...IE....you can get a super galaxy-X if you refer five friends, (btw, it's going on the C-store in 30 days)
Hey, you can get all these different exclusive perks and stuff, one perk for each box set you buy....(btw, they're all going to be on the C-store in a month or two)
Hey, you can get a LTS with a liberated borg player character (btw, we're goin got offer it for less without the borg skin probably before your birthday)
Unfortunately they're not totally stupid; if they started doing that, then no one would buy anything from their C-store, and that is more than likely their primary source of income for STO these days.
The subs will be the main source of income, not the C-Store.
Huh? In fact ..double huh? They don't have near enough "subs" to be making much money off this bit-o-crap. Anyone that logs into the game can plainly see that. It's Deadsville. All they have left is the C-store.
Just can't wait till the inevitable "we're going f2p and screwing you lifetimers over big time" from Craptic. I bet they'll offer the LTs Craptic dollars as compensation. What a scum sucking company they've become. Their employees should be embarrassed to work there.
I agree with you except that I'm confident the subs will be worth more than C-Store currently. I'm a LTS unfortunately and I haven't bought anything from the C-Store, other than with free points I got with the box set and as an extra for downtime or something, I forget now. Even with dwindling numbers the monthly fees will be worth more. There is only so much in the store and much of it is a choice of one way or another, a lot of people also started with things like uniforms and character slots, and everything but the skill ame reset is a one time purchase. If the C-Store was driving income I doubt they would have priced the galaxy-x so highly and been economical with the truth to sell it. It's mostly to milk the minority who will buy any little thing you put their way.
I agree with you except that I'm confident the subs will be worth more than C-Store currently. I'm a LTS unfortunately and I haven't bought anything from the C-Store, other than with free points I got with the box set and as an extra for downtime or something, I forget now. Even with dwindling numbers the monthly fees will be worth more. There is only so much in the store and much of it is a choice of one way or another, a lot of people also started with things like uniforms and character slots, and everything but the skill ame reset is a one time purchase. If the C-Store was driving income I doubt they would have priced the galaxy-x so highly and been economical with the truth to sell it. It's mostly to milk the minority who will buy any little thing you put their way.
I have to disagree with that last bit there; I think they are trying to milk as much money as possible out of STO before their third MMO launches (which we should be hearing something about this month). As such, we may be seeing them go the route that SOE did with its Sony Station Pass; pay one fee (I think it's about $30.00 for the SOE one now), and get access to all the MMOs. Granted Cryptic wouldn't be able to get away with charging $30.00 for three MMOs, but this seems a bit more likely to me than STO going the free to play route.
As for subs still bringing in most of their income, I guess that depends on how many paying (not lifetimers, of course) subscribers you think they have for STO. We will not be able to get a reasonable estimate of likely numbers until the next Atari financial report at the earliest, but right now my gut tells me that CO has far more paying susbcribers than STO does; CO is a far more developed game. Though it still is a bit lacking in content from what I understand, CO at launch was far more complete than STO. Additionally, the replayability in CO is higher than STO in my opinion. That should change once the Klingon faction finally gets finished, but it might be a bit late by then.
Out of curiosity, how many active, paying subscriptions do you believe STO still has? Just a rough estimate, since there's no way to really know for sure.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
I agree with you except that I'm confident the subs will be worth more than C-Store currently. I'm a LTS unfortunately and I haven't bought anything from the C-Store, other than with free points I got with the box set and as an extra for downtime or something, I forget now. Even with dwindling numbers the monthly fees will be worth more. There is only so much in the store and much of it is a choice of one way or another, a lot of people also started with things like uniforms and character slots, and everything but the skill ame reset is a one time purchase. If the C-Store was driving income I doubt they would have priced the galaxy-x so highly and been economical with the truth to sell it. It's mostly to milk the minority who will buy any little thing you put their way.
I have to disagree with that last bit there; I think they are trying to milk as much money as possible out of STO before their third MMO launches (which we should be hearing something about this month). As such, we may be seeing them go the route that SOE did with its Sony Station Pass; pay one fee (I think it's about $30.00 for the SOE one now), and get access to all the MMOs. Granted Cryptic wouldn't be able to get away with charging $30.00 for three MMOs, but this seems a bit more likely to me than STO going the free to play route.
As for subs still bringing in most of their income, I guess that depends on how many paying (not lifetimers, of course) subscribers you think they have for STO. We will not be able to get a reasonable estimate of likely numbers until the next Atari financial report at the earliest, but right now my gut tells me that CO has far more paying susbcribers than STO does; CO is a far more developed game. Though it still is a bit lacking in content from what I understand, CO at launch was far more complete than STO. Additionally, the replayability in CO is higher than STO in my opinion. That should change once the Klingon faction finally gets finished, but it might be a bit late by then.
Out of curiosity, how many active, paying subscriptions do you believe STO still has? Just a rough estimate, since there's no way to really know for sure.
Although many think STO could go FTP I think your prediction is more probable. People cite the C-Store as a framework for FTP, but it is nothing like DDO or RoM's stores for example. STO doesn't even have the same necessity for extra consumables. Maybe for the few raids, but the batteries are all pretty useless and crafting is pointless. Item sales would be suicide, although as I said I expect the couple of prelaunch ones to end up being available, as they can still play the equality card with some already having them.
CO is a better game than STO if you like that sort of thing, but the IP and space combat give STO the lead with subscriber numbers I feel, and also just because it's that bit newer.
I posted in the STO forums when they brought out the captain's database about making rough calculations of the number of players. Since then you can hide your profile so it makes it a bit more difficult. Many LTS and even continuing subscribers haven't logged in for ages, so it's hard to discount them or not as they are indistinguishable. They deemed success to have 100k at launch and i'm sure they well exceeded that. I'd guess that it may have dropped below 50k now hence Zinc being asked to leave by mutual consent. I've no idea how many to knock off that as LTS. Maybe 5K? Without the die hard trekkies it might not even be viable to run. I do think they could still possibly turn it around though, at least as far as what the game could offer, but getting people back will be very hard.
Although many think STO could go FTP I think your prediction is more probable. People cite the C-Store as a framework for FTP, but it is nothing like DDO or RoM's stores for example. STO doesn't even have the same necessity for extra consumables. Maybe for the few raids, but the batteries are all pretty useless and crafting is pointless. Item sales would be suicide, although as I said I expect the couple of prelaunch ones to end up being available, as they can still play the equality card with some already having them.
CO is a better game than STO if you like that sort of thing, but the IP and space combat give STO the lead with subscriber numbers I feel, and also just because it's that bit newer.
I posted in the STO forums when they brought out the captain's database about making rough calculations of the number of players. Since then you can hide your profile so it makes it a bit more difficult. Many LTS and even continuing subscribers haven't logged in for ages, so it's hard to discount them or not as they are indistinguishable. They deemed success to have 100k at launch and i'm sure they well exceeded that. I'd guess that it may have dropped below 50k now hence Zinc being asked to leave by mutual consent. I've no idea how many to knock off that as LTS. Maybe 5K? Without the die hard trekkies it might not even be viable to run. I do think they could still possibly turn it around though, at least as far as what the game could offer, but getting people back will be very hard.
As for those few pre-order bonuses still not available, I fully believe they will indeed be made available (more likely sooner rather than later). The equality card you mentioned is more than likely what they will use as well. As for STO being a bigger name and all, that probably did factor in at the beginning. However, now that word is out about STO and people have mostly seen for themselves, popularity of IP is no longer an isssue. Other than the ooh and ah factor of a new MMO (especially one set in a beloved IP), STO missed the mark in too many ways; the things they did get decent (looks, sounds, and nods to Star Trek) are not enough to keep people subscribed. CO on the other hand, while still lacking in the content department as compared to other MMOs, is a much superior game in many ways.
Given that, I personally think that CO is probably still around the 50,000 subscriber mark (including lifetimers). My hunch is that STO is probably around 30,000 - 40,000 subscribers now, with 30,000 - 35,000 being more probable. As for STO lifetime subscriber numbers? Based on comments made by two guild members regarding their order numbers on lifetime subscriptions made just two days apart (one had a number in the lower sixty thousands, while the other recieved one in the mid-seventy thousands range), I am estimating that STO sold between 10,000 - 15,000 lifetime subscriptions (possibly as many as 20,000). For argument's sake, let's go with 10,000 lifetime subscriptions. That would put STO's actual number of paying subscribers (if I am correct in my guess) between 20,000 - 30,000.
The Captain's database is, and always has been, a joke. It has been proven repeatedly to be wildly inaccurate, and not just for the issues you brought up; the biggest problem with it in my opinion is that it still shows captains listed that unsubscribed during the initial 30 free day period and never returned. The only official number we have had from Cryptic was when Jack stated (shortly after the free trial period ended) that they had over 100,000 subscribers (and you can bet the lifetimers were included in that number). Some were trying to use the Captain's Database and Jack's statement to claim STO had almost 190,000+ subscribers, but that was ludicrous; if STO had nearly 200,000 players, Jack would have stated such. Remember, Cryptic was stating from the beginning that they could get by on 50,000 subscribers and would consider 100,000 - 150,000 subscribers a success.
Given the statement of over 100,000 subscribers, we can safely guess that at that point STO had between 100,000 - 130,000 subscribers. You can bet that if it was more than that they would have said so; something along the lines of "STO currently has almost/nearly/close to 150,000 subscribers!" Frankly, I have always been a little skeptical of that statement from Jack, considering Cryptic's trend towards spinning numbers to make themselves look good: Remember the launch press release boasting of the 1,000,000 accounts on their websites? It sounded great, until you realized that they were talking about forum accounts on both the CO and STO websites.
I guess the big question is, what happens now? I mean Cryptic was telling Atari that 50,000 subscribers was the minimum viable number, so what will Atari do if Cryptic is indeed 10,000 - 20,000 below that mark? I don't think Cryptic can turn things around; after all they seem to be clueless about things they should know how to do. A good example of this is the player fleet bases and shipyards they wanted to do, but shortly after launch stated that they did not know how to implement. Excuse me? Don't know how to implement? I mean, really, just look at the group bases in CoH/CoV for crying out loud; all you really need is a game that uses instances to pull it off, and STO is not lacking in that feature.
Let's say that they did manage to get that in, along with real diplomacy (none of that pop quiz b.s.), real exploration, and the myriad of other things which are missing or lacking. Could Cryptic turn things around for STO then? I would have to say no; if there's one thing the last few years of shoddy releases have taught us, it is that you generally only get one chance to win over players. Look at AoC; it has become an excellent game, and the new expansion makes the game far better than it was (even with all the fixing Funcom did), but people are not flocking back to it in droves. The same would hold true for WAR if it fixed all of its problems. The only ones who would benefit from STO being finally fixed would be the people still playing, and those few trying it for the first time. Most others aren't going to go near it again, nor any other Cryptic made game in the future if they keep on the same development path (and maybe even if they don't).
STO's glory days have already passed, if you can call them that.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
we're not going to have to buy these through the C-store are we?
I love the ships and all the ideas you guys have for them but I can't afford to be paying 25 bucks a ship every month.
While the budget dept says we have to sell these... I'm looking to see if we can do hybrid pricing models for some of these so that you can purchase some with Starfleet Merit OR pay Cryptic Points for them. It involves fancy spreadsheets where your time getting the merits in game makes the bean counters look the other way.
Although many think STO could go FTP I think your prediction is more probable. People cite the C-Store as a framework for FTP, but it is nothing like DDO or RoM's stores for example. STO doesn't even have the same necessity for extra consumables. Maybe for the few raids, but the batteries are all pretty useless and crafting is pointless. Item sales would be suicide, although as I said I expect the couple of prelaunch ones to end up being available, as they can still play the equality card with some already having them.
CO is a better game than STO if you like that sort of thing, but the IP and space combat give STO the lead with subscriber numbers I feel, and also just because it's that bit newer.
I posted in the STO forums when they brought out the captain's database about making rough calculations of the number of players. Since then you can hide your profile so it makes it a bit more difficult. Many LTS and even continuing subscribers haven't logged in for ages, so it's hard to discount them or not as they are indistinguishable. They deemed success to have 100k at launch and i'm sure they well exceeded that. I'd guess that it may have dropped below 50k now hence Zinc being asked to leave by mutual consent. I've no idea how many to knock off that as LTS. Maybe 5K? Without the die hard trekkies it might not even be viable to run. I do think they could still possibly turn it around though, at least as far as what the game could offer, but getting people back will be very hard.
You're probably the first STO defender I've seen that considers the possibility that they have below 50k subs, that Zink was fired, and that all is not well in STO land. I doubt Zink left voluntarily with the possibility of getting a nice chunk of the performance bonus coming due soon, unless he knows there's no way they're even close to their target numbers.
I think the hybrid F2P option is more viable than a Station Pass setup, unless they make their version of SP like $19 a month. After all, they only have two MMOs, correct? The c-store is already ridiculously large for a P2P MMO, but yeah they'd have to add more to it to make a pure or even hybrid F2P model viable. They'd have to limit new F2P players to a few races and say level 20 with only a couple zones. They would make other zones unlockable via the c-store, new levels brackets, more races, XP/merit bonus potions, worthwhile batteries, Klingons and whatever new races get added later, etc.
I would guess the number of LTSs in the 15k range, and based on close to half the posters on the forums being LTSs and Xfire numbers (yeah, I know Xfire LOL, but what else can we go on?) for them to have 35k-ish total subs. The Captain's DB still has captains of cancelled accounts. I cancelled before the end of the first month in Feb and my captains are still there.
STO can probably survive for quite a while in maintenance mode with only 20k paying customers, unless the IP holder is actually ashamed of those numbers and revokes the license.
Although many think STO could go FTP I think your prediction is more probable. People cite the C-Store as a framework for FTP, but it is nothing like DDO or RoM's stores for example. STO doesn't even have the same necessity for extra consumables. Maybe for the few raids, but the batteries are all pretty useless and crafting is pointless. Item sales would be suicide, although as I said I expect the couple of prelaunch ones to end up being available, as they can still play the equality card with some already having them.
CO is a better game than STO if you like that sort of thing, but the IP and space combat give STO the lead with subscriber numbers I feel, and also just because it's that bit newer.
I posted in the STO forums when they brought out the captain's database about making rough calculations of the number of players. Since then you can hide your profile so it makes it a bit more difficult. Many LTS and even continuing subscribers haven't logged in for ages, so it's hard to discount them or not as they are indistinguishable. They deemed success to have 100k at launch and i'm sure they well exceeded that. I'd guess that it may have dropped below 50k now hence Zinc being asked to leave by mutual consent. I've no idea how many to knock off that as LTS. Maybe 5K? Without the die hard trekkies it might not even be viable to run. I do think they could still possibly turn it around though, at least as far as what the game could offer, but getting people back will be very hard.
You're probably the first STO defender I've seen that considers the possibility that they have below 50k subs, that Zink was fired, and that all is not well in STO land. I doubt Zink left voluntarily with the possibility of getting a nice chunk of the performance bonus coming due soon, unless he knows there's no way they're even close to their target numbers.
I think the hybrid F2P option is more viable than a Station Pass setup, unless they make their version of SP like $19 a month. After all, they only have two MMOs, correct? The c-store is already ridiculously large for a P2P MMO, but yeah they'd have to add more to it to make a pure or even hybrid F2P model viable. They'd have to limit new F2P players to a few races and say level 20 with only a couple zones. They would make other zones unlockable via the c-store, new levels brackets, more races, XP/merit bonus potions, worthwhile batteries, Klingons and whatever new races get added later, etc.
I would guess the number of LTSs in the 15k range, and based on close to half the posters on the forums being LTSs and Xfire numbers (yeah, I know Xfire LOL, but what else can we go on?) for them to have 35k-ish total subs. The Captain's DB still has captains of cancelled accounts. I cancelled before the end of the first month in Feb and my captains are still there.
STO can probably survive for quite a while in maintenance mode with only 20k paying customers, unless the IP holder is actually ashamed of those numbers and revokes the license.
Just because I'm a LTS doesn't make me a STO defender. The bonus would probably be to those who had a share of ownership in the company before Atari bought it, so it wouldn't matter if they still worked there or not. The captains database was released when you could take a good guess at who had quit based on when the last login was and average those figures, deduct a few for multiple characters etc and arrive at a rough figure. Saying so many of the forum posters are LTS, so that equates to such a percentage of game players, is not a sound estimation as LTS are far more likely to post and keep posting. Don't underestimate the dedication of those die hard trek fans. Although I think the subs may be around 50k they are probably pretty stable for a while, especially as long as they are planning and making lots of changes, even buying fan made designs and hiring a ST actor for voices.
Just because I'm a LTS doesn't make me a STO defender. The bonus would probably be to those who had a share of ownership in the company before Atari bought it, so it wouldn't matter if they still worked there or not. The captains database was released when you could take a good guess at who had quit based on when the last login was and average those figures, deduct a few for multiple characters etc and arrive at a rough figure. Saying so many of the forum posters are LTS, so that equates to such a percentage of game players, is not a sound estimation as LTS are far more likely to post and keep posting. Don't underestimate the dedication of those die hard trek fans. Although I think the subs may be around 50k they are probably pretty stable for a while, especially as long as they are planning and making lots of changes, even buying fan made designs and hiring a ST actor for voices.
i highly doubt there is 50k active accounts due to a few facts.
-it has become a very common complaint on the official sto froums that there is never anyone around
-a good average(imho) is to estimate 10% of people who are subscribed will be online. (this has been about the average in most mmo's ive played) 5000 with as small as the sto map is would not be crowded, but you wouldnt have difficulty finding other people.
-from the reading i have done on the sto forums aprox 50% of the posters are now lts (possibly more with people who have turned off there blue name) and i highly doubt there is still 25k active lts at this point.
- my last post has cryptic stating they will be charging for the new ships (c-store) they are adding to game, why would you do this and alienate even more of your subscriber base if the game was meeting your sales/subs expectations?
[ Mod Edit ]
IF THE ONLY DEFENCE FOR CRITICISM OF A GAME IS CALLING SOMEONE A TROLL OR HATER, THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME
Just because I'm a LTS doesn't make me a STO defender. The bonus would probably be to those who had a share of ownership in the company before Atari bought it, so it wouldn't matter if they still worked there or not. The captains database was released when you could take a good guess at who had quit based on when the last login was and average those figures, deduct a few for multiple characters etc and arrive at a rough figure. Saying so many of the forum posters are LTS, so that equates to such a percentage of game players, is not a sound estimation as LTS are far more likely to post and keep posting. Don't underestimate the dedication of those die hard trek fans. Although I think the subs may be around 50k they are probably pretty stable for a while, especially as long as they are planning and making lots of changes, even buying fan made designs and hiring a ST actor for voices.
i highly doubt there is 50k active accounts due to a few facts.
-it has become a very common complaint on the official sto froums that there is never anyone around
-a good average(imho) is to estimate 10% of people who are subscribed will be online. (this has been about the average in most mmo's ive played) 5000 with as small as the sto map is would not be crowded, but you wouldnt have difficulty finding other people. (ie i now play an emulator that has at most 400 people an and i am always running into other people and can always find help when needed)
-from the reading i have done on the sto forums aprox 50% of the posters are now lts (possibly more with people who have turned off there blue name) and i highly doubt there is still 25k active lts at this point.
- my last post has cryptic stating they will be charging for the new ships (c-store) they are adding to game, why would you do this and alienate even more of your subscriber base if the game was meeting your sales/subs expectations?
But STO isn't a good average MMO. However it does have a beloved IP and much promised. How are you estimating how many people are online if you aren't even playing? How do you even know 10% are on other games? STO is completely instanced so crowded doesn't come into it.
Some LTS post over and over on the forums, and as there is little to discuss now they are the only ones ever present.
They just said 4 new ships that are on par with the galaxy-x will be part of season two. One for each prof and a klingon one.
Even at the beginning it was hard to find groups, because it makes little sense to for most of it, and the raids are terrible.
Comments
Or they are just weary of him pointing out their b.s. and making them look bad.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Pretty funny how the STO moderators infract/remove posts for the post containing content that violates the EULA and then fail to remove the post from quotes in subsequent replies. A donkey could do a better job at moderating but then we wouldn't see gems posted by the likes of Jacob.
erm no
they ahd SKINS for ships and bridges in the shop, they made no difference to ship stats.
They then released Galaxy-X which is a T3 ship and flies like a brick, is lower stats that standard ship but people wanted it as it has a Cloak and fricking huge Lance Cannon that is amazzingly easy to avoid (since ever other ship can fly circles around it)
now the T5 ships are ready and are given ingame as rank rewards
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Norsefire-logo.png
That probably explains more, with this whole fiasco, than about anything else....
So the red matter capacitor and the auto defence thingy won't end up on the C-Store then? Of course they will.
Did you see the most recent STOked episode where Stahl was in front of whiteboards that had scribble and charts that had just been put on for the sake of it? Cmon, there aren't enough people working on STO now to need whiteboards.
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7056/stonc.jpg
1. Here we can see a chart of confidence in Bill Roper from an artificial high.
2. Here we can see the progress on STO over time under Zinc.
3. Here we can see a diagram for insurances purposes, showing how Stahl drove into the back of a bus on finding out he was now in charge of STO.
4. Here we can see a new Klingon ship, a blockier bird of prey.
Amusing, but I think that you are giving Roper too high of a starting point; even if it is an artificial high. Remember when eveidence of STO's problems started appearing before beta began, people on the STO forums were ready to crucify him even though he had absolutely nothing to do with STO at the time (having been in charge of CO at that specific period). On the other hand, you are more than likely correct; Cryptic's esecutive team always have appeared to have had an overinflated sense of themselves.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't they been touting the Galaxy-X as a T5 ship, and not a T3 ship? Their comments seemed to indicate this.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
I fail to see the problem this time. You can either buy a great ship or get it in the game (with work I guess?).
That sounds right to me even if selling good stuff in a P2P cashshop is a rip off in itself.
There are a lot worse problems here, you must realize that anything you buy in a cash shop could get worse or even useless in the future in any game who has a shop.
Actually, I don't think you can get that one in the game at all, unless they have just reversed their decision on it. What they announced was that you will soon be able to get several different ships in game (as free content) that make the $25.00 one pretty much worthless. Considering the journey the Galaxy-X has taken (first having to get five referral accounts to pay for a month, and then needing to cough up $25 to get it), I think those who have gotten it either way have a right to be a bit upset at Cryptic. Sure they were foolish to trust Cryptic in the first place, but that doesn't mean this wasn't a scumbag move on Cryptic's part.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
The standard Galaxy is a T4 Ship. The Galaxy X has the same amount of weapons and console slots, but with the addition of the Phaser Lance, Cloak, and the ability to use Dual Cannons. It is a refit that essentially bumps it up to tier 5. The standard Galaxy, Defiant, and Intrepid (all T4) are soon to be refitted as well, probably with their own unique special abilities. These are not supposed to be "better" than the Galaxy X, they are intended to be equivalent; seperate but equal, and only available to Admirals as Tier 5's.
Use my Referral Key for STO and get One Million In-Game Energy Credits! PM me for details.
Honestly, I'd love to see Cryptic start laying out their evil plans when they actually put something up to their customers...IE....you can get a super galaxy-X if you refer five friends, (btw, it's going on the C-store in 30 days)
Hey, you can get all these different exclusive perks and stuff, one perk for each box set you buy....(btw, they're all going to be on the C-store in a month or two)
Hey, you can get a LTS with a liberated borg player character (btw, we're goin got offer it for less without the borg skin probably before your birthday)
RELAX!@!! BREATHE!!!
So it's a T4 that operates as a T5? That explains a lot of the confusion then, and why I've seen claims that it was anything from a T3 to a T5. Do you happen to know if the other ship upgrades will have a reduced number of bridge slots as well? Posts from the STO forums state the Galaxy-X is a little light on the number of bridge slots compared to equivalent ships, though that may be due to the confusion about what exact tier it is at. If those newer ships have more bridge slots, and their own special abilities to boot, then I'd still say that those who bought the ship for it's capabilities got hosed on the deal as well. Spend $25, only to find out that you will be getting similar or better (even if it's just slightly better) for free? Heck even if the newer ones have the same number of bridge slots, plus different special powers, I'd still say the $25 price was a ripoff.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Unfortunately they're not totally stupid; if they started doing that, then no one would buy anything from their C-store, and that is more than likely their primary source of income for STO these days.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
The subs will be the main source of income, not the C-Store.
Huh? In fact ..double huh? They don't have near enough "subs" to be making much money off this bit-o-crap. Anyone that logs into the game can plainly see that. It's Deadsville. All they have left is the C-store.
Just can't wait till the inevitable "we're going f2p and screwing you lifetimers over big time" from Craptic. I bet they'll offer the LTs Craptic dollars as compensation. What a scum sucking company they've become. Their employees should be embarrassed to work there.
I agree with you except that I'm confident the subs will be worth more than C-Store currently. I'm a LTS unfortunately and I haven't bought anything from the C-Store, other than with free points I got with the box set and as an extra for downtime or something, I forget now. Even with dwindling numbers the monthly fees will be worth more. There is only so much in the store and much of it is a choice of one way or another, a lot of people also started with things like uniforms and character slots, and everything but the skill
ame reset is a one time purchase. If the C-Store was driving income I doubt they would have priced the galaxy-x so highly and been economical with the truth to sell it. It's mostly to milk the minority who will buy any little thing you put their way.
I have to disagree with that last bit there; I think they are trying to milk as much money as possible out of STO before their third MMO launches (which we should be hearing something about this month). As such, we may be seeing them go the route that SOE did with its Sony Station Pass; pay one fee (I think it's about $30.00 for the SOE one now), and get access to all the MMOs. Granted Cryptic wouldn't be able to get away with charging $30.00 for three MMOs, but this seems a bit more likely to me than STO going the free to play route.
As for subs still bringing in most of their income, I guess that depends on how many paying (not lifetimers, of course) subscribers you think they have for STO. We will not be able to get a reasonable estimate of likely numbers until the next Atari financial report at the earliest, but right now my gut tells me that CO has far more paying susbcribers than STO does; CO is a far more developed game. Though it still is a bit lacking in content from what I understand, CO at launch was far more complete than STO. Additionally, the replayability in CO is higher than STO in my opinion. That should change once the Klingon faction finally gets finished, but it might be a bit late by then.
Out of curiosity, how many active, paying subscriptions do you believe STO still has? Just a rough estimate, since there's no way to really know for sure.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Although many think STO could go FTP I think your prediction is more probable. People cite the C-Store as a framework for FTP, but it is nothing like DDO or RoM's stores for example. STO doesn't even have the same necessity for extra consumables. Maybe for the few raids, but the batteries are all pretty useless and crafting is pointless. Item sales would be suicide, although as I said I expect the couple of prelaunch ones to end up being available, as they can still play the equality card with some already having them.
CO is a better game than STO if you like that sort of thing, but the IP and space combat give STO the lead with subscriber numbers I feel, and also just because it's that bit newer.
I posted in the STO forums when they brought out the captain's database about making rough calculations of the number of players. Since then you can hide your profile so it makes it a bit more difficult. Many LTS and even continuing subscribers haven't logged in for ages, so it's hard to discount them or not as they are indistinguishable. They deemed success to have 100k at launch and i'm sure they well exceeded that. I'd guess that it may have dropped below 50k now hence Zinc being asked to leave by mutual consent. I've no idea how many to knock off that as LTS. Maybe 5K? Without the die hard trekkies it might not even be viable to run. I do think they could still possibly turn it around though, at least as far as what the game could offer, but getting people back will be very hard.
As for those few pre-order bonuses still not available, I fully believe they will indeed be made available (more likely sooner rather than later). The equality card you mentioned is more than likely what they will use as well. As for STO being a bigger name and all, that probably did factor in at the beginning. However, now that word is out about STO and people have mostly seen for themselves, popularity of IP is no longer an isssue. Other than the ooh and ah factor of a new MMO (especially one set in a beloved IP), STO missed the mark in too many ways; the things they did get decent (looks, sounds, and nods to Star Trek) are not enough to keep people subscribed. CO on the other hand, while still lacking in the content department as compared to other MMOs, is a much superior game in many ways.
Given that, I personally think that CO is probably still around the 50,000 subscriber mark (including lifetimers). My hunch is that STO is probably around 30,000 - 40,000 subscribers now, with 30,000 - 35,000 being more probable. As for STO lifetime subscriber numbers? Based on comments made by two guild members regarding their order numbers on lifetime subscriptions made just two days apart (one had a number in the lower sixty thousands, while the other recieved one in the mid-seventy thousands range), I am estimating that STO sold between 10,000 - 15,000 lifetime subscriptions (possibly as many as 20,000). For argument's sake, let's go with 10,000 lifetime subscriptions. That would put STO's actual number of paying subscribers (if I am correct in my guess) between 20,000 - 30,000.
The Captain's database is, and always has been, a joke. It has been proven repeatedly to be wildly inaccurate, and not just for the issues you brought up; the biggest problem with it in my opinion is that it still shows captains listed that unsubscribed during the initial 30 free day period and never returned. The only official number we have had from Cryptic was when Jack stated (shortly after the free trial period ended) that they had over 100,000 subscribers (and you can bet the lifetimers were included in that number). Some were trying to use the Captain's Database and Jack's statement to claim STO had almost 190,000+ subscribers, but that was ludicrous; if STO had nearly 200,000 players, Jack would have stated such. Remember, Cryptic was stating from the beginning that they could get by on 50,000 subscribers and would consider 100,000 - 150,000 subscribers a success.
Given the statement of over 100,000 subscribers, we can safely guess that at that point STO had between 100,000 - 130,000 subscribers. You can bet that if it was more than that they would have said so; something along the lines of "STO currently has almost/nearly/close to 150,000 subscribers!" Frankly, I have always been a little skeptical of that statement from Jack, considering Cryptic's trend towards spinning numbers to make themselves look good: Remember the launch press release boasting of the 1,000,000 accounts on their websites? It sounded great, until you realized that they were talking about forum accounts on both the CO and STO websites.
I guess the big question is, what happens now? I mean Cryptic was telling Atari that 50,000 subscribers was the minimum viable number, so what will Atari do if Cryptic is indeed 10,000 - 20,000 below that mark? I don't think Cryptic can turn things around; after all they seem to be clueless about things they should know how to do. A good example of this is the player fleet bases and shipyards they wanted to do, but shortly after launch stated that they did not know how to implement. Excuse me? Don't know how to implement? I mean, really, just look at the group bases in CoH/CoV for crying out loud; all you really need is a game that uses instances to pull it off, and STO is not lacking in that feature.
Let's say that they did manage to get that in, along with real diplomacy (none of that pop quiz b.s.), real exploration, and the myriad of other things which are missing or lacking. Could Cryptic turn things around for STO then? I would have to say no; if there's one thing the last few years of shoddy releases have taught us, it is that you generally only get one chance to win over players. Look at AoC; it has become an excellent game, and the new expansion makes the game far better than it was (even with all the fixing Funcom did), but people are not flocking back to it in droves. The same would hold true for WAR if it fixed all of its problems. The only ones who would benefit from STO being finally fixed would be the people still playing, and those few trying it for the first time. Most others aren't going to go near it again, nor any other Cryptic made game in the future if they keep on the same development path (and maybe even if they don't).
STO's glory days have already passed, if you can call them that.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelrain27
we're not going to have to buy these through the C-store are we?
I love the ships and all the ideas you guys have for them but I can't afford to be paying 25 bucks a ship every month.
While the budget dept says we have to sell these... I'm looking to see if we can do hybrid pricing models for some of these so that you can purchase some with Starfleet Merit OR pay Cryptic Points for them. It involves fancy spreadsheets where your time getting the merits in game makes the bean counters look the other way.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=166919&page=2
so much for the new ships being free (allthough they are saying you should get one)
IF THE ONLY DEFENCE FOR CRITICISM OF A GAME IS CALLING SOMEONE A TROLL OR HATER, THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME
You're probably the first STO defender I've seen that considers the possibility that they have below 50k subs, that Zink was fired, and that all is not well in STO land. I doubt Zink left voluntarily with the possibility of getting a nice chunk of the performance bonus coming due soon, unless he knows there's no way they're even close to their target numbers.
I think the hybrid F2P option is more viable than a Station Pass setup, unless they make their version of SP like $19 a month. After all, they only have two MMOs, correct? The c-store is already ridiculously large for a P2P MMO, but yeah they'd have to add more to it to make a pure or even hybrid F2P model viable. They'd have to limit new F2P players to a few races and say level 20 with only a couple zones. They would make other zones unlockable via the c-store, new levels brackets, more races, XP/merit bonus potions, worthwhile batteries, Klingons and whatever new races get added later, etc.
I would guess the number of LTSs in the 15k range, and based on close to half the posters on the forums being LTSs and Xfire numbers (yeah, I know Xfire LOL, but what else can we go on?) for them to have 35k-ish total subs. The Captain's DB still has captains of cancelled accounts. I cancelled before the end of the first month in Feb and my captains are still there.
STO can probably survive for quite a while in maintenance mode with only 20k paying customers, unless the IP holder is actually ashamed of those numbers and revokes the license.
Just because I'm a LTS doesn't make me a STO defender. The bonus would probably be to those who had a share of ownership in the company before Atari bought it, so it wouldn't matter if they still worked there or not. The captains database was released when you could take a good guess at who had quit based on when the last login was and average those figures, deduct a few for multiple characters etc and arrive at a rough figure. Saying so many of the forum posters are LTS, so that equates to such a percentage of game players, is not a sound estimation as LTS are far more likely to post and keep posting. Don't underestimate the dedication of those die hard trek fans. Although I think the subs may be around 50k they are probably pretty stable for a while, especially as long as they are planning and making lots of changes, even buying fan made designs and hiring a ST actor for voices.
i highly doubt there is 50k active accounts due to a few facts.
-it has become a very common complaint on the official sto froums that there is never anyone around
-a good average(imho) is to estimate 10% of people who are subscribed will be online. (this has been about the average in most mmo's ive played) 5000 with as small as the sto map is would not be crowded, but you wouldnt have difficulty finding other people.
-from the reading i have done on the sto forums aprox 50% of the posters are now lts (possibly more with people who have turned off there blue name) and i highly doubt there is still 25k active lts at this point.
- my last post has cryptic stating they will be charging for the new ships (c-store) they are adding to game, why would you do this and alienate even more of your subscriber base if the game was meeting your sales/subs expectations?
[ Mod Edit ]
IF THE ONLY DEFENCE FOR CRITICISM OF A GAME IS CALLING SOMEONE A TROLL OR HATER, THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME
But STO isn't a good average MMO.
However it does have a beloved IP and much promised. How are you estimating how many people are online if you aren't even playing? How do you even know 10% are on other games? STO is completely instanced so crowded doesn't come into it.
Some LTS post over and over on the forums, and as there is little to discuss now they are the only ones ever present.
They just said 4 new ships that are on par with the galaxy-x will be part of season two. One for each prof and a klingon one.
Even at the beginning it was hard to find groups, because it makes little sense to for most of it, and the raids are terrible.
You play on a STO indy server?