This reminds me of the debate about 'death runs'. Is a game bad because they don't make you spend 2 hours running back to your corpse? Is a game bad because the boss fights don't require you to kill 40 pulls of the exact same 3 mobs first?
This is a game, I want to have fun. Dungeons like WC, Gnome and BRD just had way too much trash between exciting fights. Yes, sometimes trash can be fun.. but not when it is repetitive.
And again, this is a game. Did anyone actually do BRD at it's intended level? It would take about 5 hours for a complete clear, and if you didn't clear it in one day, you had to wait to find the same 4 players to try to finish it.
The challenge of a dungeon should be the abilities of the boss mobs, not staying awake through 40 packs of mobs, rr spending 5 hours trying to find a healer to finish the last two bosses of a dungeon because your group fell apart yesterday.
I like the wrath dungeons. Not because of the loot, but because you could do them all in under an hour, you never got bored with trash mobs, and the boss fights were innovative and challenging before you outgeared them.
Er, in fact I did BRD at its intended level, and I died like a dog on countless occasions as we battled our way through it until we finally mastered its many facets.
I quit WOW before BC came out and from reading this and one other thread I realize that WOW today is almost nothing like the game I used to play and enjoy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wailing Cavern, oh my i would queue for random just to get the blue reward but when the game put me in that dungeon i just /quit, cant stand that place, so confusing, millions of trash mobs to kills, not worth the effort.
This reminds me of the debate about 'death runs'. Is a game bad because they don't make you spend 2 hours running back to your corpse? Is a game bad because the boss fights don't require you to kill 40 pulls of the exact same 3 mobs first?
This is a game, I want to have fun. Dungeons like WC, Gnome and BRD just had way too much trash between exciting fights. Yes, sometimes trash can be fun.. but not when it is repetitive.
And again, this is a game. Did anyone actually do BRD at it's intended level? It would take about 5 hours for a complete clear, and if you didn't clear it in one day, you had to wait to find the same 4 players to try to finish it.
The challenge of a dungeon should be the abilities of the boss mobs, not staying awake through 40 packs of mobs, rr spending 5 hours trying to find a healer to finish the last two bosses of a dungeon because your group fell apart yesterday.
I like the wrath dungeons. Not because of the loot, but because you could do them all in under an hour, you never got bored with trash mobs, and the boss fights were innovative and challenging before you outgeared them.
That's about what I was going to say as well. Long isn't the problem - tedious and unrewarding is.
The dungeons that people find fun, they will do over and over. It's not a matter of all these young MMO whippersnappers not knowing how to work for something. The cane-pointing finger-waggling crotchety EQ flagellates have to remember that the majority of players aren't looking for the most self-abusive path of tedium - they are looking for an engaging experience. Fighting the same mob for an hour, be it a fleet of one type or actually one mob for an hour, is not fun for most people, especially when the xp and loot pale in comparison to what they could be getting elsewhere. Gnomeregan IS boring. Anyone that isn't a masochistic raid junkie can easily see why people avoid it like the plague. The same with several other dungeons.
"I think this is so typical for all those people that like quick rewards above a good fun fight."
Or maybe your e-nose is so high up in the air that you can't see that others might find different things fun.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Er, in fact I did BRD at its intended level, and I died like a dog on countless occasions as we battled our way through it until we finally mastered its many facets.
I quit WOW before BC came out and from reading this and one other thread I realize that WOW today is almost nothing like the game I used to play and enjoy.
Leaving was the right decision it seems.
It has pros and cons. There are infinitely more groups doing dungeons now that Dungeon Finder works cross-realm and teleports you inside.
In vanilla, you had to plan a 3 to 4 hours just to do a regular dungeon including waiting for your group to gather up from everywhere in the world. Now it's much easier to find a group even if you don't have any friends of your level to play with, but consequently players are not forced to explore as much and often don't even know where an instance is located.
Currently, tanking classes being overpowered at low level (you now grab between 3 and 5 groups of mobs) so a full run of BRD usually take 1:30 to 2 hours, or Gnomeregan in 20 minutes (assuming you only go straight to Thermaplugg)
In end game, every dungeons consist of the tank pulling between 1 and 3 groups depending on his gearscore (and on the healer sometimes), then of 3 DPS using their AOE to kill stuff fast. The devs even provided every class a powerful AOE to prevent players from being ditched. Blizzard then mentionned that dungeons were not intended to be as easy and that groups may have to use Crowd Control in Cataclysm.
This reminds me of the debate about 'death runs'. Is a game bad because they don't make you spend 2 hours running back to your corpse? Is a game bad because the boss fights don't require you to kill 40 pulls of the exact same 3 mobs first?
This is a game, I want to have fun. Dungeons like WC, Gnome and BRD just had way too much trash between exciting fights. Yes, sometimes trash can be fun.. but not when it is repetitive.
And again, this is a game. Did anyone actually do BRD at it's intended level? It would take about 5 hours for a complete clear, and if you didn't clear it in one day, you had to wait to find the same 4 players to try to finish it.
The challenge of a dungeon should be the abilities of the boss mobs, not staying awake through 40 packs of mobs, rr spending 5 hours trying to find a healer to finish the last two bosses of a dungeon because your group fell apart yesterday.
I like the wrath dungeons. Not because of the loot, but because you could do them all in under an hour, you never got bored with trash mobs, and the boss fights were innovative and challenging before you outgeared them.
That's about what I was going to say as well. Long isn't the problem - tedious and unrewarding is.
The dungeons that people find fun, they will do over and over. It's not a matter of all these young MMO whippersnappers not knowing how to work for something. The cane-pointing finger-waggling crotchety EQ flagellates have to remember that the majority of players aren't looking for the most self-abusive path of tedium - they are looking for an engaging experience. Fighting the same mob for an hour, be it a fleet of one type or actually one mob for an hour, is not fun for most people, especially when the xp and loot pale in comparison to what they could be getting elsewhere. Gnomeregan IS boring. Anyone that isn't a masochistic raid junkie can easily see why people avoid it like the plague. The same with several other dungeons.
"I think this is so typical for all those people that like quick rewards above a good fun fight."
Or maybe your e-nose is so high up in the air that you can't see that others might find different things fun.
A: when it comes to exp it doesnt matter whether you do 5x 1 hour instances or 1x5 hout instance .
B: And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays, rewards aren't bonuses , its all about rewards.
I think this kind of MMO would fit many MMO players nowadays: . Why waste time actually do something? its all tedious !
C: Killing mobs is what the game is about (unless you're a PvP'er but than why PvE?) . You ALWAYS kill mobs , and there are many different types of mobs in BRD or any other long instance, its not like its always the same ones. Instead of killing twenty boars for one quest than twenty bears for an other you kill 20x mob X in the instance followed by 20x mob Y , etc...
Now sure these long instances could be more rewarding , but when you care that much about the reward to make it an argument why something is "bad" something went terribly wrong. Maybe i should stop playing CoD4 because i don't get any rewards anymore , whats the point?
Now you may argue you don't like scenery or what not into an instance (reason why i hated gnomeregan) . But all that "its tedious" and whatnot is extremely poor argumentation if you think about it .
Sure those long instances are bad "gear farming" instances , sure if you don't have lots of free time on your hand you better don't play them, but thats it . For anyone who actually has the time and actually PLAYS the game (and not grind it) i don't see any possible reason why long instances are "bad"
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
A: when it comes to exp it doesnt matter whether you do 5x 1 hour instances or 1x5 hout instance .
B: And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays, rewards aren't bonuses , its all about rewards.
I think this kind of MMO would fit many MMO players nowadays: . Why waste time actually do something? its all tedious !
C: Killing mobs is what the game is about (unless you're a PvP'er but than why PvE?) . You ALWAYS kill mobs , and there are many different types of mobs in BRD or any other long instance, its not like its always the same ones. Instead of killing twenty boars for one quest than twenty bears for an other you kill 20x mob X in the instance followed by 20x mob Y , etc...
A: Maybe for you it doesn't, but it makes a huge difference to the majority of MMO gamers.
B: Until you get past other play styles being wrong or a 'problem' then you're never really going to understand why games are being made this way.
C: Most MMOs are not about killing mobs. Mobs are a mean to the end for most people.
You seem set in the belief that people who play differently than you want everything handed to them. That's fine and all, but it is a clear indication of how out of touch you are with the majority of people who play not just MMOs, but games in general.
"And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays..."
And on that note, I'll get off your lawn and go play my loud rock-n-roll music down the block.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In EQ1 people didn't like the "long raids" (Vex Thal anyone?)
Why? People have freaking lives outside of the game.
A dungeon SHOULD NOT TAKE 16 hours to clear (on a good run, longer if you mess up).
WC in WoW as a newbie in a PUG? Words: HORRIFIC NIGHTMARE come to mind.
Between the idiots and afk's and disconnects, that thing could take many hours to try and finish. Try.
Gnomer is the same way (and was even worse due to the aggro bugs).
EQ1 added the instanced dungeon expansion, which was great for many people because the dungeons were not huge, and could be done fairly quickly. So you didn't have to experience the afk/idiot syndrome nearly as much.
A: when it comes to exp it doesnt matter whether you do 5x 1 hour instances or 1x5 hout instance .
B: And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays, rewards aren't bonuses , its all about rewards.
I think this kind of MMO would fit many MMO players nowadays: . Why waste time actually do something? its all tedious !
C: Killing mobs is what the game is about (unless you're a PvP'er but than why PvE?) . You ALWAYS kill mobs , and there are many different types of mobs in BRD or any other long instance, its not like its always the same ones. Instead of killing twenty boars for one quest than twenty bears for an other you kill 20x mob X in the instance followed by 20x mob Y , etc...
A: Maybe for you it doesn't, but it makes a huge difference to the majority of MMO gamers.
B: Until you get past other play styles being wrong or a 'problem' then you're never really going to understand why games are being made this way.
C: Most MMOs are not about killing mobs. Mobs are a mean to the end for most people.
You seem set in the belief that people who play differently than you want everything handed to them. That's fine and all, but it is a clear indication of how out of touch you are with the majority of people who play not just MMOs, but games in general.
"And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays..."
And on that note, I'll get off your lawn and go play my loud rock-n-roll music down the block.
A: elaborate . I mean sure apparently it does , but why? It doesn't seem to make sense. Unless you don't have the time to complete the instance, but i have mentioned that myself.
B: Playstyles? It's not a playstyle it's a mentality . And again , i'm using logic here, if its all about the shiny rewards why not play a game that involves ONLY shiny rewards? The problem is that by focusing too much on "rewards" you actually don't play the game but literally grind it . It's than and only then the game becomes a tedious job, if you actually enjoy the game i don't see why a slightly lesser reward would be a big fuss . Because exp wise BRD or any longer instance is just as rewarding in exp/hour , you'll just get less gear due to a lesser amount of satchels and bosses earned per hour.
C: What end? If i understand wow clearly: Kill mobs to lvl , ding 80 , kill mobs to get better gear so you can kill the LK and if you want to push it further , kill more mobs to get the awesomesauce gear to satisfy your e-peen. Oh sure it might not be an end on itself but that's what you're going to do for like 90% of the time you play (excluding Achi hunters and PvP'ers) . Rolling a new alt? Well repeat what i just said . So whats the problem with killing 100 trash mobs in 1 instance instead of 100 in 4 different ones? Mainly considering variety wise long instances would offer the same trash wise than the shorter instances combined. (maybe a few exceptions).
And i'm entitled to my opinion about what i think is the problem with people nowadays. I'm not someone who thinks everyone is perfect in his own special ways . Whether my opinion is absolute truth is something else though . (maybe i expressed that not so correctly, but english is my third language => not always the perfect choice of words).
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
This reminds me of the debate about 'death runs'. Is a game bad because they don't make you spend 2 hours running back to your corpse? Is a game bad because the boss fights don't require you to kill 40 pulls of the exact same 3 mobs first?
This is a game, I want to have fun. Dungeons like WC, Gnome and BRD just had way too much trash between exciting fights. Yes, sometimes trash can be fun.. but not when it is repetitive.
And again, this is a game. Did anyone actually do BRD at it's intended level? It would take about 5 hours for a complete clear, and if you didn't clear it in one day, you had to wait to find the same 4 players to try to finish it.
The challenge of a dungeon should be the abilities of the boss mobs, not staying awake through 40 packs of mobs, rr spending 5 hours trying to find a healer to finish the last two bosses of a dungeon because your group fell apart yesterday.
I like the wrath dungeons. Not because of the loot, but because you could do them all in under an hour, you never got bored with trash mobs, and the boss fights were innovative and challenging before you outgeared them.
That's about what I was going to say as well. Long isn't the problem - tedious and unrewarding is.
The dungeons that people find fun, they will do over and over. It's not a matter of all these young MMO whippersnappers not knowing how to work for something. The cane-pointing finger-waggling crotchety EQ flagellates have to remember that the majority of players aren't looking for the most self-abusive path of tedium - they are looking for an engaging experience. Fighting the same mob for an hour, be it a fleet of one type or actually one mob for an hour, is not fun for most people, especially when the xp and loot pale in comparison to what they could be getting elsewhere. Gnomeregan IS boring. Anyone that isn't a masochistic raid junkie can easily see why people avoid it like the plague. The same with several other dungeons.
"I think this is so typical for all those people that like quick rewards above a good fun fight."
Or maybe your e-nose is so high up in the air that you can't see that others might find different things fun.
A: when it comes to exp it doesnt matter whether you do 5x 1 hour instances or 1x5 hout instance .
B: And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays, rewards aren't bonuses , its all about rewards.
I think this kind of MMO would fit many MMO players nowadays: . Why waste time actually do something? its all tedious !
C: Killing mobs is what the game is about (unless you're a PvP'er but than why PvE?) . You ALWAYS kill mobs , and there are many different types of mobs in BRD or any other long instance, its not like its always the same ones. Instead of killing twenty boars for one quest than twenty bears for an other you kill 20x mob X in the instance followed by 20x mob Y , etc...
Now sure these long instances could be more rewarding , but when you care that much about the reward to make it an argument why something is "bad" something went terribly wrong. Maybe i should stop playing CoD4 because i don't get any rewards anymore , whats the point?
Now you may argue you don't like scenery or what not into an instance (reason why i hated gnomeregan) . But all that "its tedious" and whatnot is extremely poor argumentation if you think about it .
Sure those long instances are bad "gear farming" instances , sure if you don't have lots of free time on your hand you better don't play them, but thats it . For anyone who actually has the time and actually PLAYS the game (and not grind it) i don't see any possible reason why long instances are "bad"
because the vast majority of players can't play 5 hours at a time to clear 1 dungeon. So they play 2 hours and clear 2 Wraith dungeons. The problem with BRD, WC and Gnome was that very few people ever finished them at the intended level. it took so long to actually find a group that could hold together for 3-4 hours, that you ended up always missing the end and then outlevel the dungeon.
Blizzard had the data, they saw that SM was by far more popular just because players could actually finish it in one session.
It really has nothing to do with gear. If I can clear 3 bosses in 1 hour, or 12 bosses in 4 hours.. in the end, the gear works out the same... the problem is that most players can't play for 4 hours at a time without having someone in the party DC or leave and leave you hanging.
This reminds me of the debate about 'death runs'. Is a game bad because they don't make you spend 2 hours running back to your corpse? Is a game bad because the boss fights don't require you to kill 40 pulls of the exact same 3 mobs first?
This is a game, I want to have fun. Dungeons like WC, Gnome and BRD just had way too much trash between exciting fights. Yes, sometimes trash can be fun.. but not when it is repetitive.
And again, this is a game. Did anyone actually do BRD at it's intended level? It would take about 5 hours for a complete clear, and if you didn't clear it in one day, you had to wait to find the same 4 players to try to finish it.
The challenge of a dungeon should be the abilities of the boss mobs, not staying awake through 40 packs of mobs, rr spending 5 hours trying to find a healer to finish the last two bosses of a dungeon because your group fell apart yesterday.
I like the wrath dungeons. Not because of the loot, but because you could do them all in under an hour, you never got bored with trash mobs, and the boss fights were innovative and challenging before you outgeared them.
That's about what I was going to say as well. Long isn't the problem - tedious and unrewarding is.
The dungeons that people find fun, they will do over and over. It's not a matter of all these young MMO whippersnappers not knowing how to work for something. The cane-pointing finger-waggling crotchety EQ flagellates have to remember that the majority of players aren't looking for the most self-abusive path of tedium - they are looking for an engaging experience. Fighting the same mob for an hour, be it a fleet of one type or actually one mob for an hour, is not fun for most people, especially when the xp and loot pale in comparison to what they could be getting elsewhere. Gnomeregan IS boring. Anyone that isn't a masochistic raid junkie can easily see why people avoid it like the plague. The same with several other dungeons.
"I think this is so typical for all those people that like quick rewards above a good fun fight."
Or maybe your e-nose is so high up in the air that you can't see that others might find different things fun.
A: when it comes to exp it doesnt matter whether you do 5x 1 hour instances or 1x5 hout instance .
B: And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays, rewards aren't bonuses , its all about rewards.
I think this kind of MMO would fit many MMO players nowadays: . Why waste time actually do something? its all tedious !
C: Killing mobs is what the game is about (unless you're a PvP'er but than why PvE?) . You ALWAYS kill mobs , and there are many different types of mobs in BRD or any other long instance, its not like its always the same ones. Instead of killing twenty boars for one quest than twenty bears for an other you kill 20x mob X in the instance followed by 20x mob Y , etc...
Now sure these long instances could be more rewarding , but when you care that much about the reward to make it an argument why something is "bad" something went terribly wrong. Maybe i should stop playing CoD4 because i don't get any rewards anymore , whats the point?
Now you may argue you don't like scenery or what not into an instance (reason why i hated gnomeregan) . But all that "its tedious" and whatnot is extremely poor argumentation if you think about it .
Sure those long instances are bad "gear farming" instances , sure if you don't have lots of free time on your hand you better don't play them, but thats it . For anyone who actually has the time and actually PLAYS the game (and not grind it) i don't see any possible reason why long instances are "bad"
because the vast majority of players can't play 5 hours at a time to clear 1 dungeon. So they play 2 hours and clear 2 Wraith dungeons. The problem with BRD, WC and Gnome was that very few people ever finished them at the intended level. it took so long to actually find a group that could hold together for 3-4 hours, that you ended up always missing the end and then outlevel the dungeon.
Blizzard had the data, they saw that SM was by far more popular just because players could actually finish it in one session.
It really has nothing to do with gear. If I can clear 3 bosses in 1 hour, or 12 bosses in 4 hours.. in the end, the gear works out the same... the problem is that most players can't play for 4 hours at a time without having someone in the party DC or leave and leave you hanging.
Well ye like i mentioned thats a valid explanation which makes perfect sense . But tbh i think they should just offer both short and long instances or use the SM system . Where you can decide to do it all or piece by piece without having to do it all over again.
And WOTLK was extremely disapointing because of the fact they were all short apart from the ICC 5-mans which i enjoyed doing in a streak the first time . Just give everybody a piece of the cake. I wouldnt mind if 75% were short and 25% long , just make sure the ones looking for long instances also have their cut and don't need to wait for the final raid to be released >>
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Wailing Cavern, oh my i would queue for random just to get the blue reward but when the game put me in that dungeon i just /quit, cant stand that place, so confusing, millions of trash mobs to kills, not worth the effort.
It's more confusing reaching the instance itself than going through it, and they teleport you right there now ~_~. It's a straight forward instance and most of the mobs are optional kills. I didn't think it was anymore challenging than stockades or dead mines, but I guess at first glance it looks confusing.
-------------------------- Playing: FFXIV, TERA, LoL, and HoTS My Rig: GPU: GeForce GTX 770, CPU: i7-4790K, Memory: 16 GB RAM
Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I thought BRD was one of the best designed dungeons in WoW. It is easily the dungeon I have done the most. The sheer number of bosses, most of which are optional, was brilliant and the number of different areas within the instance really allowed sme nice variety.
There was also a nice little story involved within the instance itself.
As for not being challenging. I remember it taking four attempts to get through the lyceum for the first time. Of course that had a lot to do with class makeup. There are a number of challenging rooms in there, and some really cool boss mechanics. People forget that it was one of the earlier instances and that much of it has been copied and inserted into many other instances that have come after.
BRD was the near perfect design for me. You could treat the instance in a linear fashion and get to the Dwarf King after killing a few bosses, or you could explore and meander and spend a couple of hours in there and kill a plethora of bosses and mini-bosses.
The only thing it suffered from was a little too much trash - but that was the raison d'etre in vanilla.
Comments
Er, in fact I did BRD at its intended level, and I died like a dog on countless occasions as we battled our way through it until we finally mastered its many facets.
I quit WOW before BC came out and from reading this and one other thread I realize that WOW today is almost nothing like the game I used to play and enjoy.
Leaving was the right decision it seems.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wailing Cavern, oh my i would queue for random just to get the blue reward but when the game put me in that dungeon i just /quit, cant stand that place, so confusing, millions of trash mobs to kills, not worth the effort.
That's about what I was going to say as well. Long isn't the problem - tedious and unrewarding is.
The dungeons that people find fun, they will do over and over. It's not a matter of all these young MMO whippersnappers not knowing how to work for something. The cane-pointing finger-waggling crotchety EQ flagellates have to remember that the majority of players aren't looking for the most self-abusive path of tedium - they are looking for an engaging experience. Fighting the same mob for an hour, be it a fleet of one type or actually one mob for an hour, is not fun for most people, especially when the xp and loot pale in comparison to what they could be getting elsewhere. Gnomeregan IS boring. Anyone that isn't a masochistic raid junkie can easily see why people avoid it like the plague. The same with several other dungeons.
"I think this is so typical for all those people that like quick rewards above a good fun fight."
Or maybe your e-nose is so high up in the air that you can't see that others might find different things fun.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It has pros and cons. There are infinitely more groups doing dungeons now that Dungeon Finder works cross-realm and teleports you inside.
In vanilla, you had to plan a 3 to 4 hours just to do a regular dungeon including waiting for your group to gather up from everywhere in the world. Now it's much easier to find a group even if you don't have any friends of your level to play with, but consequently players are not forced to explore as much and often don't even know where an instance is located.
Currently, tanking classes being overpowered at low level (you now grab between 3 and 5 groups of mobs) so a full run of BRD usually take 1:30 to 2 hours, or Gnomeregan in 20 minutes (assuming you only go straight to Thermaplugg)
In end game, every dungeons consist of the tank pulling between 1 and 3 groups depending on his gearscore (and on the healer sometimes), then of 3 DPS using their AOE to kill stuff fast. The devs even provided every class a powerful AOE to prevent players from being ditched. Blizzard then mentionned that dungeons were not intended to be as easy and that groups may have to use Crowd Control in Cataclysm.
A: when it comes to exp it doesnt matter whether you do 5x 1 hour instances or 1x5 hout instance .
B: And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays, rewards aren't bonuses , its all about rewards.
I think this kind of MMO would fit many MMO players nowadays:
. Why waste time actually do something? its all tedious !
C: Killing mobs is what the game is about (unless you're a PvP'er but than why PvE?) . You ALWAYS kill mobs , and there are many different types of mobs in BRD or any other long instance, its not like its always the same ones. Instead of killing twenty boars for one quest than twenty bears for an other you kill 20x mob X in the instance followed by 20x mob Y , etc...
Now sure these long instances could be more rewarding , but when you care that much about the reward to make it an argument why something is "bad" something went terribly wrong. Maybe i should stop playing CoD4 because i don't get any rewards anymore , whats the point?
Now you may argue you don't like scenery or what not into an instance (reason why i hated gnomeregan) . But all that "its tedious" and whatnot is extremely poor argumentation if you think about it .
Sure those long instances are bad "gear farming" instances , sure if you don't have lots of free time on your hand you better don't play them, but thats it . For anyone who actually has the time and actually PLAYS the game (and not grind it) i don't see any possible reason why long instances are "bad"
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
A: Maybe for you it doesn't, but it makes a huge difference to the majority of MMO gamers.
B: Until you get past other play styles being wrong or a 'problem' then you're never really going to understand why games are being made this way.
C: Most MMOs are not about killing mobs. Mobs are a mean to the end for most people.
You seem set in the belief that people who play differently than you want everything handed to them. That's fine and all, but it is a clear indication of how out of touch you are with the majority of people who play not just MMOs, but games in general.
"And this is exactly the problem with people nowadays..."
And on that note, I'll get off your lawn and go play my loud rock-n-roll music down the block.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In EQ1 people didn't like the "long raids" (Vex Thal anyone?)
Why? People have freaking lives outside of the game.
A dungeon SHOULD NOT TAKE 16 hours to clear (on a good run, longer if you mess up).
WC in WoW as a newbie in a PUG? Words: HORRIFIC NIGHTMARE come to mind.
Between the idiots and afk's and disconnects, that thing could take many hours to try and finish. Try.
Gnomer is the same way (and was even worse due to the aggro bugs).
EQ1 added the instanced dungeon expansion, which was great for many people because the dungeons were not huge, and could be done fairly quickly. So you didn't have to experience the afk/idiot syndrome nearly as much.
A: elaborate . I mean sure apparently it does , but why? It doesn't seem to make sense. Unless you don't have the time to complete the instance, but i have mentioned that myself.
B: Playstyles? It's not a playstyle it's a mentality . And again , i'm using logic here, if its all about the shiny rewards why not play a game that involves ONLY shiny rewards? The problem is that by focusing too much on "rewards" you actually don't play the game but literally grind it . It's than and only then the game becomes a tedious job, if you actually enjoy the game i don't see why a slightly lesser reward would be a big fuss . Because exp wise BRD or any longer instance is just as rewarding in exp/hour , you'll just get less gear due to a lesser amount of satchels and bosses earned per hour.
C: What end? If i understand wow clearly: Kill mobs to lvl , ding 80 , kill mobs to get better gear so you can kill the LK and if you want to push it further , kill more mobs to get the awesomesauce gear to satisfy your e-peen. Oh sure it might not be an end on itself but that's what you're going to do for like 90% of the time you play (excluding Achi hunters and PvP'ers) . Rolling a new alt? Well repeat what i just said . So whats the problem with killing 100 trash mobs in 1 instance instead of 100 in 4 different ones? Mainly considering variety wise long instances would offer the same trash wise than the shorter instances combined. (maybe a few exceptions).
And i'm entitled to my opinion about what i think is the problem with people nowadays. I'm not someone who thinks everyone is perfect in his own special ways . Whether my opinion is absolute truth is something else though . (maybe i expressed that not so correctly, but english is my third language => not always the perfect choice of words).
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
because the vast majority of players can't play 5 hours at a time to clear 1 dungeon. So they play 2 hours and clear 2 Wraith dungeons. The problem with BRD, WC and Gnome was that very few people ever finished them at the intended level. it took so long to actually find a group that could hold together for 3-4 hours, that you ended up always missing the end and then outlevel the dungeon.
Blizzard had the data, they saw that SM was by far more popular just because players could actually finish it in one session.
It really has nothing to do with gear. If I can clear 3 bosses in 1 hour, or 12 bosses in 4 hours.. in the end, the gear works out the same... the problem is that most players can't play for 4 hours at a time without having someone in the party DC or leave and leave you hanging.
Well ye like i mentioned thats a valid explanation which makes perfect sense . But tbh i think they should just offer both short and long instances or use the SM system . Where you can decide to do it all or piece by piece without having to do it all over again.
And WOTLK was extremely disapointing because of the fact they were all short apart from the ICC 5-mans which i enjoyed doing in a streak the first time . Just give everybody a piece of the cake. I wouldnt mind if 75% were short and 25% long , just make sure the ones looking for long instances also have their cut and don't need to wait for the final raid to be released >>
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
It's more confusing reaching the instance itself than going through it, and they teleport you right there now ~_~. It's a straight forward instance and most of the mobs are optional kills. I didn't think it was anymore challenging than stockades or dead mines, but I guess at first glance it looks confusing.
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FFXIV, TERA, LoL, and HoTS
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the only problem i've had with dungeon finder is in the early levels 1-40 the collective stupid you end up grouped with is well...amazing.
Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I thought BRD was one of the best designed dungeons in WoW. It is easily the dungeon I have done the most. The sheer number of bosses, most of which are optional, was brilliant and the number of different areas within the instance really allowed sme nice variety.
There was also a nice little story involved within the instance itself.
As for not being challenging. I remember it taking four attempts to get through the lyceum for the first time. Of course that had a lot to do with class makeup. There are a number of challenging rooms in there, and some really cool boss mechanics. People forget that it was one of the earlier instances and that much of it has been copied and inserted into many other instances that have come after.
BRD was the near perfect design for me. You could treat the instance in a linear fashion and get to the Dwarf King after killing a few bosses, or you could explore and meander and spend a couple of hours in there and kill a plethora of bosses and mini-bosses.
The only thing it suffered from was a little too much trash - but that was the raison d'etre in vanilla.
I don't like long dungeons because fighting the same trash again and again is relatively boring compared to boss fights.